ORAS FU Metagame Discussion (old)

[Politoad]

So I've been using Scald / Ice Beam / Superpower / Toxic on Kingler lately and it's a really neat set so far. Scald is admittedly weaker than Crabhammer, as Kingler only has 50 SpA, so Crabhammer > Scald, but Sheer Force Ice Beam is useful to smack around switchins like Gabite without worry of Rough Skin, Leavanny, Gogoat, the other Dragon- and Grass-types, and Krokorok without worry of Intimidate. Superpower catches Scraggy and achieves maximum coverage. Toxic is just... Toxic, it's useful and hits Shedinja. So yeah. Experimenting with wallbreaking sets.

I feel like this set faces a lot of competition from Simipour though on the special side there, which has better Speed and Special Attack and can also run a Life Orb, and its focus blast (it can also learn superpower too but meh) is a bit less powerful but it doesn't matter: (I'm just running a calc with some random EV spreads)

252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Scraggy: 250-296 (103.7 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Kingler Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Scraggy: 307-361 (127.3 - 149.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Against Ursaring:

252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ursaring: 354-419 (110.2 - 130.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Kingler Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ursaring: 429-507 (133.6 - 157.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

as you can see, they both OHKO. But Superpower lowers Kingler's Attack and Defense because of it lacking Hyper Cutter which sucks there (because without sheer force scald and ice beam are quite weak), and Scald is a bit stronger AND still has the additional chance to burn.

 

[EV]

I feel like this set faces a lot of competition from Simipour though on the special side there, which has better Speed and Special Attack and can also run a Life Orb, and its focus blast (it can also learn superpower too but meh) is a bit less powerful but it doesn't matter: (I'm just running a calc with some random EV spreads)

252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Scraggy: 250-296 (103.7 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Kingler Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Scraggy: 307-361 (127.3 - 149.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Against Ursaring:

252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ursaring: 354-419 (110.2 - 130.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Kingler Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ursaring: 429-507 (133.6 - 157.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

as you can see, they both OHKO. But Superpower lowers Kingler's Attack and Defense because of it lacking Hyper Cutter which sucks there, and Scald is a bit stronger AND still has the additional chance to burn.

Hyper Cutter would not prevent a self-inflicted Attack drop from Superpower.

 

[Politoad]

Hyper Cutter would not prevent a self-inflicted Attack drop from Superpower.

He's talking about Sheer Force though, and without Sheer Force Scald and Ice Beam are very weak.

 

[EV]

He's talking about Sheer Force though, and without Sheer Force Scald and Ice Beam are very weak.

Your last line when you mentioned Hyper Cutter seemed like you thought it prevents the Attack drop from Superpower.

At least that's what it looked like to me.

 

[dhelmise]

I played FU for the first time today, and may I just say, it is AMAZING. I love how this OM brings out the underrated PU Pokemon and a lot of NFEs that needed some spotlight.

 

[Fisherman Walter]

I've been using munchlax lately, and it's surprised me how well its doing.

Munchlax @ Eviolite
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Whirlwind
- Return

The set is pretty self explanatory-rest sleep talk for recovery, whirlwind for the boosting monkeys, and return for stab that hits pretty hard. Because of rest talk, it can beat a lot of things, most notably being electabuzz. You could definitely invest in attack, or even run curse instead of whirlwind, making it a slower but bulkier vigoroth. This thing is not used enough, considering it is one of the best special walls in the meta.

 

[Magnemite]

All right, like usual I'll be posting the FU tier shifts (using the same cutoffs as all of the other tiers):

Drops:
Solrock

Rises:
Relicanth
Purugly
Stoutland (from BL5)
Aurorus

Not too much this time, but still more than most tiers.

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

Losing Canth again sucks (Especially because its mediocre in PU) though the other rises I kind of expected. Solrock, well, I don't know what that was even used for to be honest.

 

[Clarisaxx22]

All right, like usual I'll be posting the FU tier shifts (using the same cutoffs as all of the other tiers):

Drops:
Solrock

Rises:
Relicanth
Purugly
Stoutland (from BL5)
Aurorus

Not too much this time, but still more than most tiers.

Solrock: joining his brother lunatone, both suck a lot, except has reliable recovery

Relicanth: aucks, only good for Rock Head +Head Smash
Purugly:useful Defog counter+ defiant user
Stoutland:banned:doesn't mattee
Aurorus:A stupid strong special attacking dinosaur

 

[Gary]

Just an FYI FU is using the new cutoff system instead of the old 3.4% cutoff. Basically allowing Pokemon to rise if their usage is more than 4.52%, and drop if used less than 2.28% of the time. The reason I'm doing this is because the PU tier shifts are usually so meta changing that I got sick and tired of how by the time the meta began to stabilize, new drops like Stoutland, Rapidash, and Gogoat would just come in and change everything. Or the opposite happens, where we all of the sudden lose a shit ton of stuff to PU. Although we still lost a few FU Pokemon with the new cutoff, it wasn't nearly as bad as it would be if we kept the old system. For example if we used the old cutoff, we would have gotten Floatzel back, which was one of the most centralizing Pokemon when it was around, as well as fucking DODRIO, which is basically Fearow on steroids. Yeah, didn't think that was a great idea, so I just went with what every other tier is doing.

Anyways, the only rise in my opinion that will truly be missed is Purugly. It really helped punish Sticky Web teams from just setting up Sticky Web turn 1 without losing anything from it. On the flip side, it also hurt Sticky Web teams a little bit because now there's less of a reason to spam Defog and get rid of it. I can see a rise in Wigglytuff because in my opinion it's the next best Sticky Web/Defog punisher that we have, and on top of that it can set up Stealth Rock, so it's a really good fit on Sticky Web teams. Aurorus will kind of be missed I guess because it was an extremely good Stealth Rock setter on Web teams, as well as on some bulky offensive ones, but to be honest, it wasn't the most amazing thing in the world, and it wont be missed that much. Stoutland is banned anyway, and Relicanth was hardly ever seen much really.

Solrock actually looks interesting because it checks some pretty big threats, such as Gabite, Fraxure, Rapidash, and Arbok. It has reliable reocvery in the form of Morning Sun as well, and burns shit with Wisp. It looks pretty cool to be honest.

 

[noobcubed]

Solrock: joining his brother lunatone, both suck a lot, except has reliable recovery

Not really. Sunny Day is already a very good playstyle in FU and a Solrock will be an excellent lead for those teams.

 

[AmpharosTheThunder]

A poké that isnt a bad cleric is Wigglytuff, but it def sucks, and a poké that can be used as a spinner is Shellder, but it spdef sucks, so im thinking to use they to complete one to one, but a mixed poke(it is worst than PU, so will have some mixed pokes, a third poke need to be used to complete this, Trubbish can be used in this case, almost any mixed poke can 1HKO he, and with a not high HP, can be used pain split,two spikes to take some pokes down, and haze to induce switches

 

[Clarisaxx22]

I was messing around some stuff and I discovered an awesome NFE that's bulkier than Prinplup while keeping SR, but not defog, sadly

Grotle @ Eviolite
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 248 HP / 204 Def / 56 SpD
Bold Nature
- Synthesis
- Protect
- Toxic
- Leech Seed/Stealth Rock

This guy is amazing on stall, and paired with Metang and some water type (Prinplup or Swanna), the core resists Water,Fire,Grass,Ground,Electric,Flying,Fairy,Ice,Psychic,Rock,Steel,Normal and Dragon
If you counted, thats 13 resists.
The EV's give Grotle 353HP/423 Def /270 SpD after Eviolite, which walls a lot of FU
I've used it for a bit and it's pretty bulky and walls Electabuzz,Gabite,Krokorok and all the water types.

 

[Politoad]

I was messing around some stuff and I discovered an awesome NFE that's bulkier than Prinplup while keeping SR, but not defog, sadly

Grotle @ Eviolite
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 248 HP / 204 Def / 56 SpD
Bold Nature
- Synthesis
- Protect
- Toxic
- Leech Seed/Stealth Rock

This guy is amazing on stall, and paired with Metang and some water type (Prinplup or Swanna), the core resists Water,Fire,Grass,Ground,Electric,Flying,Fairy,Ice,Psychic,Rock,Steel,Normal and Dragon
If you counted, thats 13 resists.
The EV's give Grotle 353HP/423 Def /270 SpD after Eviolite, which walls a lot of FU
I've used it for a bit and it's pretty bulky and walls Electabuzz,Gabite,Krokorok and all the water types.

I feel like this is just a worse Gogoat with the only niche of having Stealth Rock. Milk Drink has more PP and is actually more reliable with Hail users like snover arpund (which aren't very common but w/e). I'd use Gogoat with a different set rather than this an this because Gogoat has higher HP, can have leftovers as item, has an immunity to Grass, and is twice as fast as Grotle which allows it to outspeed pokemon such as machoke (which it can poison or leech seed) and also allows it to use milk drink earlier than grotle, as grotle is p slow and might be koed the same turn it tries to Synthesis. I think Gogoat would perform this role better overall, and Quilladin as well.

 

[Aurorusite]

Dragonair, right now, is ridiculous on this tier. The fact, there is almost no steel types, and only few Fairy types (which can be beat by just pairing DAir with Arbok) so it can just spam DD + Resttalk until it have reached atk to deadly levels, and then destroy opponent with outrage. I can tell how OP it is, i walled Articuno with it. Fucking Articuno.

252 SpA Articuno Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dragonair: 114-134 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Its main check appears to be Gabite and Ursaring, but thats pretty much it, it can destroy whole teams. Opponent just have to hope that Dragonair gets unlucky on Sleep Talk (and i feel that i am ''unlucky'', i almost never get Outrage when i use Sleep Talk, despite that, it feels overpowered).
Dragonair should straight away Jump to A+ or even S rank and then considering banning it, its very hard to stop unless you bring in some few specific checks, which, after few DDs, cant switch onto boosted Stab Outrage, even if DAir has no Atk investment.

Another, yet not broken Pokemon, but interesting, is eviolite Shellos. It has something over some Eviolite walls: Sticky Hold, which allows it ALWAYS have Eviolite due to Knock Off unable to remove it. It has nice bulk, too, and Recover, and has option to run Storm Drain, too.

 

[Gary]

Dragonair, right now, is ridiculous on this tier. The fact, there is almost no steel types, and only few Fairy types (which can be beat by just pairing DAir with Arbok) so it can just spam DD + Resttalk until it have reached atk to deadly levels, and then destroy opponent with outrage. I can tell how OP it is, i walled Articuno with it. Fucking Articuno.

252 SpA Articuno Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dragonair: 114-134 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Its main check appears to be Gabite and Ursaring, but thats pretty much it, it can destroy whole teams. Opponent just have to hope that Dragonair gets unlucky on Sleep Talk (and i feel that i am ''unlucky'', i almost never get Outrage when i use Sleep Talk, despite that, it feels overpowered).
Dragonair should straight away Jump to A+ or even S rank and then considering banning it, its very hard to stop unless you bring in some few specific checks, which, after few DDs, cant switch onto boosted Stab Outrage, even if DAir has no Atk investment.
/quote]

Eh I think you're overhyping Dragonair a bit too much. First off, that calc is pretty inaccurate considering that the best and most common Articuno set at the moment is Life Orb 3 attacks, which is an easy 2HKO with Ice Beam. On top of that, if you're not investing anything into Dragonair's Attack, it's extremely weak and requires multiple boosts in order to muscle through anything. Although there isn't a ton of Steel-types, Metang is ridiculously common and gives zero fucks about Dragonair. The few Fairy-types that FU has are far from uncommon as well; Clefairy is an amazing wincoin for many bulky offensive teams as well as balance, while Spritzee just never dies and is a great cleric. Also its massive bulk is entirely dependent on Eviolite, which means that if something were to use Knock Off on it (which is extremely common) then it becomes a lot less bulkier and finds it very difficult to set up. I will admit that I can see Dragonair being a cool wincoin vs bulkier teams, but those always carry a Fairy-type and most likely Metang, so it's going to be difficult to sweep unless your opponent is dumb and lets Arbok take advantage of them.

If all your opponents are losing to Dragonair, then that probably means they're losing to Fraxure too, aka they're teams are pretty subpar seeing as how they aren't preparing for one of the best Pokemon in the meta. The reason Fraxure is just so much better in most instances is because it's not as dependant on Eviolite to sweep, because it only really needs the extra bulk initially so it can set up on things. Poison Jab doesn't make it completely useless against Fairy-types either, and Taunt prevents bulkier teams from phazing or crippling it with status. It's also strong as hell, and usually doesn't need more than one boost to do a huge number to most teams. Dragonair to me seems like a decent Pokemon, but I just don't see how it's any better than Fraxure. That extra bulk doesn't really mean too much when Fraxure is much stronger, better coverage and utility so it's not walled nearly as easily as Dragonair, and it only needs one turn of set up to be very threatening. In a metagame where offense reigns prime, finding many opportunities for Dragonair to set up is harder than it seems.

 

[Don Honchkrorleone]

Purugly ban destroyed my best team... At least we didn't get Dusclops, fuck that thing.

I hate No Guard Machoke. Articuno is a threat and it only makes it easier, Also, CC is more powerful than dynamic and Guts is much more useful against Gourgeist, Murkrow and Toxic Metang. I prefer killing than being a dick and praying for hax. Keep your honor, people.

Also behold the lord of FU:

Seviper @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive / Timid Nature
- Sludge Wave
- Flamethrower
- Giga Drain
- Knock Off / Earthquake / Hidden Power Ice

Ever wondered why Seviper is A+ rank together with Pokemon like Arbok, Gabite and Sawsbuck? Well it's because mainly of this set. Outspeeding base 115 and +1 Adamant Fraxure is awesome, so is having Infiltrator and an excellent movepool from both sides. Scarf Seviper is an excellent late-game cleaner once the bulky grounds are dead or severely weakened, and able to revenge kill threats like Sawsbuck, Jumpluff and SD Kingler is a true feat. Sludge Wave is powerful STAB, Flamethrower hits Steel-types, Giga Drain hits Rocks and refills health, and the last can be tailored. Knock Off OHKO's Swoobat behind a sub, and also punishes Eviolite mons trying to switch at the snake. EQ gets a harder hit on Electric-types and Lairon. HP Ice helps againt Gabite, but only that. Don't be fooled to think it's only special, as Physical Scarf Seviper is also perfectly viable with a set of Poison Jab/Knock Off/EQ/Aqua Tail or Flamethrower. Scarf Seviper is my favorite Pokemon to use in FU because it glues most of my teams extremely well. And it's better than ScarfBuzz (that thing is awful, stop using it).

Dragonair, right now, is ridiculous on this tier. The fact, there is almost no steel types, and only few Fairy types (which can be beat by just pairing DAir with Arbok) so it can just spam DD + Resttalk until it have reached atk to deadly levels, and then destroy opponent with outrage. I can tell how OP it is, i walled Articuno with it. Fucking Articuno.

252 SpA Articuno Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dragonair: 114-134 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Its main check appears to be Gabite and Ursaring, but thats pretty much it, it can destroy whole teams. Opponent just have to hope that Dragonair gets unlucky on Sleep Talk (and i feel that i am ''unlucky'', i almost never get Outrage when i use Sleep Talk, despite that, it feels overpowered).
Dragonair should straight away Jump to A+ or even S rank and then considering banning it, its very hard to stop unless you bring in some few specific checks, which, after few DDs, cant switch onto boosted Stab Outrage, even if DAir has no Atk investment.

Why would I run that over Fraxure lol And I don't know which no-brainer Articuno you battled because who the fuck would run max SpA and not Modest? Or without a Life Orb? Articuno's best sets are 3 Attacks + Roost and Specs (maybe scarf but I'm not much of a fan). Also this thing can't touch Steel-types like Klang (who can set up) or Lairon (who can phaze it), while Fraxure can destroy both with a Fighting-type move. Additionally, Arbok cannot switch in Psychic Wigglytuff (as if anyone used that except me tho :L Better than Hyper Voice) and if opponent has Gabite, it fucks both Ice Fang-less Arbok and Dragonair. Dragonair's best strenghts lie, from what I've seen so far, on a defensive set, differentiating itself from Fraxure. Also DD without ExtremeSpeed seems dumb. I'd place it on B at most.

Another, yet not broken Pokemon, but interesting, is eviolite Shellos. It has something over some Eviolite walls: Sticky Hold, which allows it ALWAYS have Eviolite due to Knock Off unable to remove it. It has nice bulk, too, and Recover, and has option to run Storm Drain, too.

Again, why I'd use it over any other Water-type? Sticky Hold is not that good when you'll always take a 97 BP Dark move. Shellos isn't even Ground in an Electabuzz and Gogoat metagame ._.

 

[Haunted Diamond]

Quilladin @ Eviolite
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Poison Jab
- Spikes
- Leech Seed
- Synthesis

Here's the Quilladin set I've been using to check electabuzz and set up spikes. It's a great wall, i doubt there are anythings that can outright OHKO this guy. With some hazards down, it's easy to wear out your opponent's team with leech seed. Poison jab is to hit the grass types like Gogoat and Sawsbuck that are immune to leech seed, and it also has a nice 30% poison chance that's pretty useful.

 

[Alphajores]

why isnt swoobat banned?
seriously its so op it bashes through every team without sucker punch spammers

 

[Gary]

why isnt swoobat banned?
seriously its so op it bashes through every team without sucker punch spammers

Because any well built team can carry several answers to it very easily. Scarf Krok is very common and destroys the fuck out of it. Eviolite Electabuzz can 2HKO it even after a single Calm Mind. Basically any variant of Murkrow can take it on extremely well too. Zweilous comes in for basically free. Articuno takes it on very reliably to, as a Life Orb Ice Beam is going to be doing an insane amount to it regardless. Swoobat is definitely a threat, but its frail as fuck and doesn't find many opportunities to set up because of it, and on top of that its weak as hell before it sets up, so it absolutely MUST set up before it can be good.

 

[GlassVeins]

So, where are spinda, unknown, farfetched, and delibird?

 

[AM]

Are there any links to sample FU teams? Not expecting anything absolutely crazy, just something to get a feel for the meta. It'd be nice to play the tier if I wasn't so clueless how to build for it :s.

 

[Halcyon.]

http://pastebin.com/3jJYS7mN

That's a pretty standard team I just threw together. Anyone can use it if they so choose. It's basically supposed to allow Arbok to sweep. Rapidash breaks for it very well, and Gogoat/Clefairy handle Gabite and Krok which are the two most common offensive checks to it as well. Normal spam from Raticate and Persian are things you have to watch out for, as is Fraxure, but Murkrow with T-Wave and Tailwind support should be enough for offensive setup mons that get too many boosts. Tailwind+Rapidash is also hilarious. Also Murkrow serves as a semi-reliable Machoke check. Buzz is just a great Pokemon and helps with Swanna as well as bulky waters like Toed and Prinplup. I'll post more teams (and encourage other council members to do the same) as I build them.

EDIT: actually I screwed up the EVs for Gogoat. It should have 20 Spe for min speed Solrock so you can sub up on the Wisp and set up on it. Also Clefairy should have Eviolite but my phone is retarded.

 

[Clarisaxx22]

http://pastebin.com/3jJYS7mN

That's a pretty standard team I just threw together. Anyone can use it if they so choose. It's basically supposed to allow Arbok to sweep. Rapidash breaks for it very well, and Gogoat/Clefairy handle Gabite and Krok which are the two most common offensive checks to it as well. Normal spam from Raticate and Persian are things you have to watch out for, as is Fraxure, but Murkrow with T-Wave and Tailwind support should be enough for offensive setup mons that get too many boosts. Tailwind+Rapidash is also hilarious. Also Murkrow serves as a semi-reliable Machoke check. Buzz is just a great Pokemon and helps with Swanna as well as bulky waters like Toed and Prinplup. I'll post more teams (and encourage other council members to do the same) as I build them.

EDIT: actually I screwed up the EVs for Gogoat. It should have 20 Spe for min speed Solrock so you can sub up on the Wisp and set up on it. Also Clefairy should have Eviolite but my phone is retarded.

So wait, Politoed is in this meta(even though drizzle is banned) I think politoed can check waters since it has water absorb, and time for me to test it out

 

[Halcyon.]

So wait, Politoed is in this meta(even though drizzle is banned) I think politoed can check waters since it has water absorb, and time for me to test it out

Yeah it is. And it was a good check to water types and most special Attackers in general thanks to its massive special bulk, access to encore for setup sweepers, Perish Song, and even the niche Hypnosis. I used it a few months ago and it was good back in the post Regice meta.