Done ORAS Mega Crucibelle

[spoo]

approved by snake

The more ORAS CAP is developed after its revival, the more we realize it was originally left in anything but a balanced state. Following the quickbans of Cawmodore and Aurumoth, Crucibellite was banned after the tier's first major teamtour, and Kerfluffle's future has drawn attention after CL. The tier is quickly losing a lot of the stuff that makes it unique just because it's all way too strong.

Myself and a few other council members (haven't gathered opinions from all yet) believe that post-Mega Crucibelle meta is a lot better, but ideally we could nerf the mon and reintroduce it. Pastgen CAP nerfs are complicated and often touchy subjects, so I wanted to formally move the topic over to PRC. Speaking personally, I would not be considering this if I didn't believe it were possible and a good idea; imo, ORAS Mega Cruci is a very different case compared to most pastgen nerfs because of the fact that it was nerfed in a future generation.

Mirroring the SM Bao thread, here are a couple general questions before we get into proper logistical stuff:

• Are we / should we be allowed to nerf Mega Crucibelle in the first place?
• If we are, should we go through with it? Or is it fine staying banned as-is?

I don't think we can get much further until we answer the questions of "can we nerf it" and "should we nerf it." Tagging ORAS council below. Of course all input is welcomed and encouraged, especially if you've played / built ORAS CAP in the past teamtour or two.

D2TheW Dj Breloominati♬ Lasen quziel SHSP Steam Buns

 

[Lasen]

gonna make this short, I think we should be able to nerf it because it makes the metagame more inclusive (banning a CAP is never fun). Is it a good idea? My answer is yes. Mega Cruci got its stats and movepool ate in SM so the precedent of what we would remove is there. ORAS is vastly different to SM so I actually think it would be able to function pretty decently here, unlike the D rank abomination it is the later gen. Its addition to the metagame would be more than welcome, as it serves as a check to disgusting Kerfluffle which imo is the one that should have gotten banned (2HKOs its only viable check Tornadus-T after Stealth Rock).
Fully support the nerfing of the big pot! It won't break the meta, it won't be completely useless, precedent exists with its nerf already.

 

[spoo]

Proxyposting for BasedWhat?:

The biggest issue with M-Cruc was, by culmination of several strange circumstances, that it always had just enough to stymy opposing counterplay. It would not be that drastic to reintroduce it with small changes as seen in SM, so my answer to permit a nerf is a conditional yes. I agree with Lasen: it's better to bite the bullet and correct its power level than have it sitting in an even more imaginary tier ("Gen 6 Ubers with funny bug and Rock Clefable"). My answer of yes is conditional because I think Kerf is a greater issue for ORAS CAP. What I don't want to see happen is that M-Cruc receives a nerf inconsistent with what it "should be" given current teambuilding pressure from Kerf.

TLDR: I think Kerf is a greater concrete problem for the tier, and it would be easier to decide whether to nerf M-Cruc in order to bring it back after a tiering decision is made on Kerf.

 

[spoo]

While this didn't get a ton of traction (still feel free to respond to the initial questions if you want to), it seems like the sentiment from here + conversations I've had outside of this thread is that nerfing and reintroducing Mega Cruci is something within our power from a policy/tiering standpoint and something we should attempt to pursue.

RE: BasedWhat?'s comments on tackling Kerfluffle before Mega Crucibelle
I think there is valid concern here about Kerf affecting the tier in a way that changes how Mega Cruci could be nerfed. Kerf exerts a lot of pressure on the tier, and Crucibelle also happens to take advantage of most of Kerf's answers (AV Torn, Talonflame, Volcarona, etc) incredibly well. However, after some discussion with the ORAS council, we decided Cruci is priority #1 in ORAS and we should treat it as such. It's also worth noting that the council promised to reassess Crucibelle after the next major tournament (CAPCL at the time), so tackling it now is especially important.

As far as logistics go, I see a couple options:

One option is porting over Crucibelle's SM nerf for an identical nerf in ORAS. This has some nice benefits; it keeps things much cleaner between generations, and would almost certainly do the trick in making Mega Crucibelle balanced again. However, I worry it may be a hard overnerf as it was in SM –– though others may not feel this way –– so I would like to discuss other options still.

A second option is porting over parts of Cruci's SM nerf but not the whole thing, such as only removing Head Smash (just for example's sake). We have a little more freedom in this route, but at the cost of inter-gen parity. Personally, this isn't a huge deal because Cruci already has a discrepancy with its SM self, so any progress towards that version is technically better than what we have. Still, something to consider.

A third option is total freedom and conducting a unique nerf, such as keeping Head Smash but removing U-turn (again, just an example), or changing Mega Cruci's stats in a different way than the SM nerf did. I believe this is the most questionable route and I don't think it's even necessary, and potentially impossible policy-wise, but I thought it was at least worth mentioning.

My current plan is to decide what the best plan of action is in this thread, and if we think options 2) or 3) are best, then deciding the specifics of the nerf internally within the ORAS metagame council.

Please give feedback on anything I've mentioned in this post. Once again tagging ORAS council members, as well as a couple others who I know are active within the tier / might have things to say:

D2TheW Dj Breloominati♬ Lasen quziel SHSP Steam Buns JayHeaven BasedWhat?

 

[spoo]

ORAS metagame council has been working behind the scenes to get this done before CAPPL - after about a week of intermittent discussion, we've voted for the following nerf to ORAS Mega Crucibelle:

-Low Kick, -Head Smash​

The main rationale is that this gives Cruci a ton more checks, letting basically every Steel-type switch into it way better, while (hopefully) not gutting its viability in the way that the SM nerf did with the additional Speed removal. (I'll post a more in-depth explanation in the ORAS CAP thread if this nerf goes through)

Because past-gen nerfs like this are largely unexplored grounds, I don't think the ORAS council has the power to make this change unilaterally, so we're passing it off to the PRC conversation to get final approval. I'm also giving this thread a 48 hour warning before CAP mod voting, so if you have a reasonable objection to the nerf, please share.

Note that by "reasonable objection," I don't mean arguments like "Cruci should keep Low Kick and lose Speed," or "it should also lose Wood Hammer," or something like that; the ORAS council has already voted to pursue this specific nerf. I'm more referring to objections from a policy perspective, such as if you believe this nerf sets a bad precedent, has ramifications we haven't considered yet, is violating some other CAP policy, etc.

A huge thanks to the ORAS council for helping get this done on time; hopefully nothing problematic arises in the next 48hrs and this passes without a hitch.