I mean Flash Cannon was only limited to a lure for Hydreigon sets and considering you're running Metagross in the first place it seems redundant to even run that. I haven't seen Hydreigon being used at all in the ORAS meta but it does have the perks of hitting stuff like M-Bro and M-Gross among some other bulkier psychic types so maybe it'll have a bit of improved viability....or maybe not.
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Other ORAS Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter alexwolf
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I was talking in terms of the XY Meta, where it barely held any niche at all in the OU metagame, hence it's D ranking.
There is a huge difference between base 50 speed and base 72 unburden boosted speed. Slurpuff outspeeds pretty much everything after unburden, meaning it doesn't need to rely on a 40 BP attack to hit faster mons like manectric, greninja, salamence, and pretty much every other important offensive threat and more then a few defensive ones.
Is counter skarm even that common? Most skarms I see run some combination of taunt, sr, roost, BB, and whirlwind.
For what it's worth, I forgot to mention that both Scizor and Metagross can counter this set with a steel STAB.
And given that gengar is one of the few OU viable mons that resists fighting-normal-fairy coverage, it's relevant that she can muscle through it. I will admit that I probably overhyped that fact a bit... Still, Slurpuff has speed and recovery tied to it's offense, that gives it a niche over azumarill's raw power and priority.
Honestly, slurpuff is interesting. I doubt it'll even get an OU ranking, but at least it seems viable now with drain punch. However, I doubt it'll ever see much use, as I think azumarill does indeed outclass it in a lot of key areas. In fact, on the subject of azumarill, I've noticed myself how amazing azumarill has remained in the transition to ORAS. The typical AV/Banded sets are still decently effective, and I've actually been having amazing success with Belly Drum again. It's like the beginning of XY OU all over again; I think Belly Drum Azumarill is going to be a common set that sees a lot of use for it's ability to wreak havoc on a lot of the new toys and old standbys that are currently filling the ORAS meta. Heck, at +6 (or +5 to account for mence's intimidate), look at what it does to some of the more defensively inclined new megas:
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 480-566 (121.8 - 143.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 882-1038 (290.1 - 341.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Altaria: 962-1134 (271.7 - 320.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 481-567 (119 - 140.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Camerupt: 856-1012 (248.8 - 294.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+5 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 746-882 (189.3 - 223.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Metagross: 408-480 (112 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Audino: 436-514 (106.3 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
and that's giving all of them max HP/Def with a Def nature, even though many of them won't likely run that spread. And even if azumarill is in range where one of these could finish it before it used it's best attack, it can still aqua jet for a HUGE chunk of HP.
Now, it's still a bit tricky to set up, and it has to watch out for a lot of hindrances (mega bro's scald, sableye's WoW,), but azumarill still has a pretty decent shot of setting up and sweeping with BD against a weakened team late game, or setting up and blowing huge holes in a healthy team early game. I think it's going to become a very widely used 'mon in the ORAS meta, but by going back to it's BD set rather than the XY standard AV/Band sets. Time will tell, of course, but I think azumarill is going to be a monster in ORAS OU.
Lately I've been having a lot of success with Scarf Rachi. It's iron head really hurts fast offensive teams.
Jirachi has good resists too, finding many switch in opportunities throughout a match. Its good natural bulk allow it check many different Pokemon multiple times.
U-turn is great for momentum and takes around 3/4 off Greninja. Lando-t has a hard time switching in out of fear of Ice Punch. Ice punch also Ohko's Mega Sceptile, a pokemon that Scarf Jirachi doesn't have too much trouble switching into.
Scarf Rachi has an easy time switching into fairies and can choose to gain momentum with U-turn or go for the kill with Iron head.
Healing wish is also excellent utility for Offensive teams. If your mence is burned and down to 10% you can fully restore it and let the carnage begin all over again.
Jirachi's main flaws are in its weaknesses to common dark, ground and fire moves. However, scarf and U-turn allows Jirachi to escape unfavourable matchups. Rachi is only weak to sucker punch priority, this can somewhat be played around however by U-turning on suspected Bisharp switchins.
Overall I've found this Mon great in the current oras meta, and I encourage others to give it a try.
Jirachi has good resists too, finding many switch in opportunities throughout a match. Its good natural bulk allow it check many different Pokemon multiple times.
U-turn is great for momentum and takes around 3/4 off Greninja. Lando-t has a hard time switching in out of fear of Ice Punch. Ice punch also Ohko's Mega Sceptile, a pokemon that Scarf Jirachi doesn't have too much trouble switching into.
Scarf Rachi has an easy time switching into fairies and can choose to gain momentum with U-turn or go for the kill with Iron head.
Healing wish is also excellent utility for Offensive teams. If your mence is burned and down to 10% you can fully restore it and let the carnage begin all over again.
Jirachi's main flaws are in its weaknesses to common dark, ground and fire moves. However, scarf and U-turn allows Jirachi to escape unfavourable matchups. Rachi is only weak to sucker punch priority, this can somewhat be played around however by U-turning on suspected Bisharp switchins.
Overall I've found this Mon great in the current oras meta, and I encourage others to give it a try.
SomeKidFromJohto You forgot that knock off doesn't get an attack boost against megamons. You're probably right about slurpuff, but it's nice that it now has something going for it.
Not gonna lie, I wouldn't be surprised if it wound up in BL, just because I can't think of many things in UU that can take this thing.
Not gonna lie, I wouldn't be surprised if it wound up in BL, just because I can't think of many things in UU that can take this thing.
speaking of scarves, scarf victini is a god. a choice scarf set of 72 hp / 236 atk / 200 spe with an adamant nature and moveset of v-create, bolt strike, final gambit, u-turn is amazing. brotha outspeeds jolly mega bee/sceptile, ohkos mega gallade w/ v create, provides a a great source of momentum in u-turn, and can immediately tear holes early game with final gambit whicy is pretty neato. also its typing lets you switch in on almost all fairies not named azumarill and scare out w/ a possible v-create, letting you u-turn for some easy momentum-nabbing. grade-a primo shit right here.
Im gonna talk about MSwampert rn, and I must say I overhyped him to shit.
I think MSwamperts biggest flaw is his Mega transformation turn. He doesn't get his stat boosts, his ability doesn't hit in, and he needs to have Rain Dance or a viable Rain setter (Politoed, whatever). Speaking of support, this thing needs a decent amount. Playing with MSwampert, it's not as powerful as people say it is. It has dual stabs, yes. They do a decent amount of damage, but his other moves (Some being much more important than others) like Ice Punch don't do a lot of damage. Its probably because most Megas that MSwampert likes to take out (bar MSceptile and MBeedrill) does not get KO'ed by it.
Though, it is decent, it requires too much support for me (Rain setter, optional Rain sweeper, Ferrothorn) and its 150 attack actually isn't that impressive, as most megas that hit hard have things like Aerialate/Pixilate (increases their Normal moves by 1.3x and STAB) Huge Power, etc.
Im kind of disappointed, but thats my opinion on MSwampert. Its still decent, but it was way overhyped.
I think MSwamperts biggest flaw is his Mega transformation turn. He doesn't get his stat boosts, his ability doesn't hit in, and he needs to have Rain Dance or a viable Rain setter (Politoed, whatever). Speaking of support, this thing needs a decent amount. Playing with MSwampert, it's not as powerful as people say it is. It has dual stabs, yes. They do a decent amount of damage, but his other moves (Some being much more important than others) like Ice Punch don't do a lot of damage. Its probably because most Megas that MSwampert likes to take out (bar MSceptile and MBeedrill) does not get KO'ed by it.
Though, it is decent, it requires too much support for me (Rain setter, optional Rain sweeper, Ferrothorn) and its 150 attack actually isn't that impressive, as most megas that hit hard have things like Aerialate/Pixilate (increases their Normal moves by 1.3x and STAB) Huge Power, etc.
Im kind of disappointed, but thats my opinion on MSwampert. Its still decent, but it was way overhyped.
His main problem is that regular swampert doesn't have a good easy switch in. Sure you can switch in on an electric type but every electric type in the tier is faster and has a way to cover swampert. If regular swampert had water absorb, or sap sipper, or could like completely take a common move in the meta without shrugging he would be so much better. He's too soft without the right investment and protect is wasted on a mon that already has 4MS. He's good but you have to play him right.
As opposed to say sharpedo who can sit on speed boost and become a huge threat with a free turn or two.
What are you talking about? Mega Mane, Raikou, and Zapdos really can't cover Swampert. Thundy-I might but I'm not sure. It can get a lot of free switches into Electric types.
I disagree with the Electric part, unless the meta adapts to MSwampert (using HP Grass) Electric types are prone to getting destroyed by Swampert.
Rain teams are never gonna return to the glory days of BW but Mega Swampert has given them a much needed help. Before Mega Swampert water/ground mon were either defensive (Gastrodon and Quagsire) or just too passive (Seismitoad and regular Swampert) but the typing has always been greatly sought after in rain teams for dealing with elec types and not being weak to water. Mega Swampert is now the best physical swift swim sweeper if not simply the best swift swimmer period so the hype was understandably high.
Of course hype goes both ways but I think Mega Swampert is an excellent mon who still gives rain teams better options than before and can even work on semi-rain teams using one of it's slots for rain dance. That is a huge milestone in viability among swift swimmers to be able to afford a moveslot to activate his ability and in the rain it outspeeds almost everything so it is an excellent late game cleaner as it still hits really hard. Granted having sword dance would make him much more of a threat against stall but like the guy above me said a well played Mega Swampert will always pull his weight and I find him to be very balanced mega mon who is neither too op like Mega Salamence or bad like Mega Audino.
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See, i didn't talk about his defense, he's bulky. but what I'm scared about is that he can't take out the pokemon in front of him. Its good that he's fast and has a good ability, but what people are forgetting is his Attack. Believe it or not, but in this meta, his stabs aren't used too much anymore, especially his Water stab. He takes out a few amount of megas easily, but most of the time that requires Rain up. Speaking of Rain, he needs a lot of support to actually function. If he runs Rain Dance with himself, he has 4MSS, and even then he has 4MSS again.
Im not arguing with you, although it seems like it. But in my opinion, he gave nothing new to rain teams. He's basically a weaker Kabutops, besides getting that EQ. He has nothing to boost his Attack, which needs to have a boost. Everyone is just sucked into that ability and forget that 150 attack isn't actually that good without a boost. Rain teams will be fine without him. With your last sentence you are exactly correct: he is a balanced mon, but the worst of the three starter megas.
I dont know about the best swift sweeper, cuz Kabutops still have great stabs, can run item and doesnt take up a mega slot, but Swampert FAR outbulks it, so I dont know, it goes both ways
Can you back this up with calcs? From what I've seen there's few things in the tier it can't OHKO or 2HKO - and even then those are mostly passive defensive 'mon that can't do anything back - and it can definitely afford to take a hit with it's typing and defences. Aside from Ferro, Venu and Celebi there doesn't seem to be all that much that can reliably counter it.
Richie BITG What is this "4MSS" you are speaking of? Swampert wants to run duel STAB obviously. He'll probably want ice punch if only to deal with those pesky flying dragons... and then what? I guess he might want stone miss for edgequake coverage, but what's that hitting that waterfall isn't hitting already? Stealth Rock is a legit option, but on the other hand it's not really required because sweepers would rather not waste a turn setting up SR if they can avoid it. It's plenty bulky enough to not need protect. It could run roar, but then again it could also just kill whatever is in front of it, so I'm not seeing much of a need for that either.
Is there some kind of key move I'm missing here? I'm simply not seeing the 4MSS.
Is there some kind of key move I'm missing here? I'm simply not seeing the 4MSS.
A lot of people run Hammer Arm; mostly for Ferro.
Swampert gets superpower to mow past Ferro if needed. It also gets Hammer Arm if you will. Also, MSwamp doesnt just come in for fun. It mainly fufills two jobs. One is as a bulky rain wallbreaker to break walls down such that Kabu/Ludi/King/MMan/Lati@ can sweep/clean up. It's second one is as a clean up. It doesn't come in until it's counters and checks are worn down.
EDIT: Damn got Greninja'd + Ninja'dsk
ofc
Gimme a sec. Also, Grass types aren't the only counter. we got some water types like Kingdra that can reliably come in and kick ass. Y kno?
EDIT: damn, i was underestimating his power myself. I must of been facing bulky teams, cause my Swampert never took out a goodamn mon. Oh well.
I was speaking mainly about its 4MSS when it has to run Rain dance, but it can run a lot of things also. Ice Punch, Waterfall, EQ are what you should run after, but you also got Superpower, Hammer Arm, and especially Protect.
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EQ is still a great stab attack and is a damn good secondary STAB and imo better than stone miss as it lets you handle steels better and has much better defensive typing that like you said lets him take more hits and far more switch-in opportunities.
Regardless Kabutops is no longer as much a requirement as he used to be on rain teams as Mega Swampert is a highly recommended option at the moment and has a easier time to sweep than Kabutops but it definitely still have his niches like rapid spin and sword dance so I don't wanna be too hard on the guy ^^
edit: not seeing the necessity of protect either, Swampert dominates tons of mon without grass coverage so it can afford a turn to setup.
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Hang on, why would you want Protect? What could that possibly offer? It makes sense for Beedrill to run it since it's frail as fuck but Swampert doesn't give a fuck; unless it's on the other end of a mega sceptile it'll shrug off any hit and hit back hard on the mega evolution turn
thats the main reason why i put it there, because of Sceptile. A rather rare case, but sometimes you wanna beat things could kill you if you don't have a specific move.
That is too much opportunity cost, no sane man brings out Swampert against Sceptile mega or not. However if you use rain dance in that moveslot instead of protect as the opponent brings out his Mega Sceptile you can threaten to ohko it with ice punch as it outspeeds it in the rain.
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IMO, that's a very big waste of a moveslot. Like I said previously, Pert comes in with either one of two goals in mind. To break or to clean. You wouldn't want to get it in unless it's a free switch.
If you're gonna Protect on a Mega Sceptile that's in on your Swampert you're just giving him a free Sub (which he'll likely go for considering Swampert fears, you know, Grass-types).
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