Other ORAS Metagame Discussion

[napty]

Lol nothing can counter anything with +6 critical hit on any move with a 10% chance for a secondary effect happening. Mega Scizor is probably one of the best megas in OU because of it checking fairy spam and Metagross who does jackshit to it thanks to its ridiculous bulk and recovery.

Sure.

But Meteor Mash's secondary effect happen such often that it's worth considering it while talking about it. It's like Keldeo/Azumarill. Okay, Azumarill counters it, but it takes risks when it comes in because of Scald. Well it's a bit different for sure because Azumarill can still deal with Keldeo when burned, while Scizor needs 3 turns to kill Metagross (either Knock Off + Knock Off + Knock Off or SD + Knock Off + Knock Off). And it also has to constantly roost off damages. This is a really long process, during which a lot of things can happen. It's like Clefable which is, at +1, supposed to beat Mega Venusaur with a specific EVs spread... but the time he got enough boost to knock Venusaur out, Venusaur would've already crited it and it'd be over...

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

I didn't calc anything. I'm talking from my experience. If Mega Metagross manages to get a +2 boost, you're pretty much screwed. That's all I know.

Let's invent a scenario though. Scizor is a bit weaken, like 70%.

• Scizor comes in, Metagross uses Meteor Mash, he gets a boost. Scizor is at half.
• Metagross uses EQ, Scizor roosts off the damages. It is at 65%.
• Metagross' user is seeing that EQ ain't enough, he's fishing for another boost with Meteor Mash. He got it. Scizor gotta roost again. It is at 85%.
• Now, Metagross is at +2 and only has to spam EQ brainlessly until he gets a single crit, while Scizor can't do shit bar recovering off the damages.

Celticpride beat me to the punchline, but here are the odds of 2 consecutive boosts: (9/10)(1/5)(9/10)(1/5) = 81 / 2500 = .0324 = 3.24%

The odds of 2 consecutive boosts are not high. If you are getting haxed enough that this is happening every battle, you need to do something about your bad Karma, because it is NOT likely. So long as you are not sitting there for 10 turns letting it wail on you before switching in Scizor, it's not likely going to get to +2. Can we please drop this discussion? Scizor IS a counter because BARRING hax it wins.

 

[napty]

napty

+2 84 Atk Mega Scizor Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 200-236 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Mega Scizor: 107-127 (31.1 - 37%) -- 78.9% chance to 3HKO

It's really a statistical improbability that Metagross can get to +2 against Scizor. Really stop selling some BS that the RNG is against you, or that Metagross can afford to fish for Meteor Mash boosts when it can't. If you really want I could find the probability of two boosts in ten plus turns, it's pretty low.

Don't be rude, it ain't BS, it happened to me several times.

The problem with this is the assumption that this happens every time against MMeta. Of course everything falls flat against an ultraboosted Metagross but think: how likely is it to happen such that Scizor cannot at the very least meduim check Metagross? In your scenario, the chance of MMeta getti g 2 boosts in a row is tiny: 4 percent. That's really not enough to say that Scizor can't at least check Metagross, unless given extreme had or +6 baton passing.

EDIT: also hammer arm is better than eq

Like I said above, Scizor needs a lot of turns to really be able to knock Metagross out. This increases the chance to get haxed. Of course, Scizor is a counter. But in practice it's sometimes different, and believe me or not but this happens more often than you think.

 

[Tricking]

Sure.

But Meteor Mash's secondary effect happen such often that it's worth considering it while talking about it. It's like Keldeo/Azumarill. Okay, Azumarill counters it, but it takes risks when it comes in because of Scald. Well it's a bit different for sure because Azumarill can still deal with Keldeo when burned, while Scizor needs 3 turns to kill Metagross (either Knock Off + Knock Off + Knock Off or SD + Knock Off + Knock Off). And it also has to constantly roost off damages. This is a really long process, during which a lot of things can happen. It's like Clefable which is, at +1, supposed to beat Mega Venusaur with a specific EVs spread... but the time he got enough boost to knock Venusaur out, Venusaur would've already crited it and it'd be over...

Azumarill is called "strong check" due to scald burns, but it's 30% and Azumarill can't deal with Keldeo after it had got burned.

Scizor is called "full counter" because it wins, except for some 2-3% chance to lose which normally won't happen. And if it unfortunately Metagross gets some boosts, it still has some chances to win.

 

[napty]

Celticpride beat me to the punchline, but here are the odds of 2 consecutive boosts: (9/10)(1/5)(9/10)(1/5) = 81 / 2500 = .0324 = 3.24%

The odds of 2 consecutive boosts are not high. If you are getting haxed enough that this is happening every battle, you need to do something about your bad Karma, because it is NOT likely. So long as you are not sitting there for 10 turns letting it wail on you before switching in Scizor, it's not likely going to get to +2. Can we please drop this discussion? Scizor IS a counter because BARRING hax it wins.

Scizor is a counter yeah, I do agree with this. Look at what I said above. And I didn't say it happened every single game, just more often than you guys seem to think. I am not here to get punchlined so don't be rude either man...

I'm not too sure how Azumarill can deal with Keldeo once burned. Keldeo isn't going to stay in on azumarill not matter what, it'll switch out to something that can.

What I meant is that Azumarill can still do a shit ton of damages to Keldeo when burned, enough to get a solid 2HKO on it. Sorry if I miswrote something.

Azumarill is called "strong check" due to scald burns, but it's 30% and Azumarill can't deal with Keldeo after it had got burned.

Scizor is called "full counter" because it wins, except for some 2-3% chance to lose which normally won't happen. And if it unfortunately Metagross gets some boosts, it still has some chances to win.

Ok.

 

[bludz]

Scizor is a counter yeah, I do agree with this.

meet

Bulky SD Mega Scizor isn't really a counter... nothing counters Mega Metagross.

If you assume an attack raise you should assume a miss on the next attack. That's why when we talk about counters we assume neither because this is silly. Yes it is possible for Scizor to lose, but it is fairly unlikely as Metagross needs an attack raise and to miss no attacks while Scizor can otherwise reliably set up on it.

 

[napty]

meet


If you assume an attack raise you should assume a miss on the next attack. That's why when we talk about counters we assume neither because this is silly. Yes it is possible for Scizor to lose, but it is fairly unlikely as Metagross needs an attack raise and to miss no attacks while Scizor can otherwise reliably set up on it.

I did not know that hax didn't enter in consideration when you have to call something "a counter", someone told it to me after I wrote my first message in this conversation and I said "Ok".

 

[bludz]

I did want to explain why we avoid thinking about hax in those situations as it can go both ways, but the rest was unnecessary, my bad for piling on.

Anyway, I'd agree with those who said that Landorus-I is the most effective mon in the metagame right now. To be honest I feel as though the Metagross suspect may have changed the way that the metagame progressed and I no longer view it as the #1 threat, I think Lando has overtaken it. Granted both have strengths and weaknesses but yeah.

 

[Tramuntana]

Well, if we consider multiple hits, IE let's say mamoswine against skarmory using icicle crash (35-40%), you need four roosts to get out of the 2HKO range if you receive another icicle crash on the switch in. in four hits, a flinch is likely to happen, just like it's likely that if you keep sending your kyuremB on scald, it will get burned sooner or later.
also, i do not understand why people gets so scared of landorus. Ice shard anyone? it's not like it's an useless attack, for example, on mamoswine it also snipes things like dragonite, thundurus after rocks, offensive gliscor or just about anything else weak to ice and with a bit of prior damage.

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

Well, if we consider multiple hits, IE let's say mamoswine against skarmory using icicle crash (35-40%), you need four roosts to get out of the 2HKO range if you receive another icicle crash on the switch in. in four hits, a flinch is likely to happen, just like it's likely that if you keep sending your kyuremB on scald, it will get burned sooner or later.
also, i do not understand why people gets so scared of landorus. Ice shard anyone? it's not like it's an useless attack, for example, on mamoswine it also snipes things like dragonite, thundurus after rocks, offensive gliscor or just about anything else weak to ice and with a bit of prior damage.

The attack's certainly not useless, but unless I'm mistaken the only things on OU that use it are Weavile and Mamoswine. If you're using them, then yes they are reasonable answers (assuming you can get them in safely), but Ice Shard isn't a catch-all Lando solution any more than Bullet Punch is the catch-all Diancie solution.

 

[Talpr0ne]

The problem with Landorus is definitely not the difficulty in revenge killing it, since it has subpar bulk and average speed, but it's the difficulty into actually switching into his attacks, as nothing is really safe from every single attack bar Cresselia and you must dance around immunities/resists, which will sooner or later make you lose a pokemon(eg you switch Latios on a predicted Earth Power which turns out to be a Knock Off. Landorus expecially thrives against balance and stall, way more common than hyper offense, which is the playstyle against which it struggles the most.

 

[Force Majeure]

also, i do not understand why people gets so scared of landorus. Ice shard anyone? it's not like it's an useless attack, for example, on mamoswine it also snipes things like dragonite, thundurus after rocks, offensive gliscor or just about anything else weak to ice and with a bit of prior damage.

Mamo and Weaville both have difficulty switching in, Weaville especially. It's not useless by any means, but it's not a panacea to the 4x Ice-Weak mons. And Lando-I is scary for Offense (where you'd find Weaville) because unless you have some type/multiple types of powerful priority on Offense you'll get torn apart by the Rock Polish set. Many times you'll at least have to sac something to get Weaville in barring a slow Volt Switch oh wait that won't work U-Turn from Scizor or something unless you know it's a set-up Lando and that it'll be setting up as you switch.

As I've been typing this, I've been partially and devilishly ninja'd by Talpr0ne 's 666th post. Sp00py!

 

[firehusky]

RP Lando is still very effective against HO, everything is too frail to live a hit from it while after a Rock Polish it can outspeed every mon on their team even scarfers.

 

[SketchUp]

A very important thing to mention when talking about Landorus is that it can get past many of its counters with (viable) coverage moves. Just quickly looking at the Checks compendium the pokemon that are considered as safe switchins are defeated by the right coverage moves bar Mega Latias and Cresselia. Moves such as HP Ice, Knock Off, Sludge Wave and Rock Slide are very good options that hit very hard on pokemon that don't resist it, even without STAB. Especially the latter seems pretty good to beat Charizard-Y, Talonflame, Gyarados, Thundurus, Mandibuzz SpDef Zapdos and Tornadus-T on the switch.
While Landorus can't run 10 moves at the same time, it is not difficult to give it the support that makes the list of checks and counters a lot smaller. One of the most common teammates is Tyranitar. If you run Tyranitar, pokemon like Gengar, Latios, Talonflame and Celebi can be pursuit trapped and weakened enough to a point where Landorus doesn't even need Rock Slide, Knock Off, Sludge Wave, HP Ice etc. and you can give it a moveset like RP / Earth Power / Focus Blast / HP Ice, as pokemon like Gengar and Talonflame, who can beat this set, are trapped by Tyranitar.

 

[Sochlo]

RP Lando is still very effective against HO, everything is too frail to live a hit from it while after a Rock Polish it can outspeed every mon on their team even scarfers.

The problem would be actually finding an opportunity to set up RP against HO with Lando's average at best bulk.

I'd also agree that Lando-I is the first thing that comes to mind when I think of "pain in the ass mon to prepare for" solely for the fact that hardly anything serves as a safe switch in for it. I guess Megagross would be up there but that thing has a lot of problems breaking through defensive cores whereas Lando just shreds through them no problem.

 

[firehusky]

Going off of what SketchUp said, this makes Landorus extremely hard to counter and very unpredictable. Many times you'll have to sac like 2 mons to figure out what set Lando is running, and by then, you're at a disadvantage and it may even be too late. The only move you know for sure that Lando has is Earth Power.
Ox the Box also was recently talking about Rock Slide. At first I thought it was crazy, why run a physical move on Lando, but Lando's physical attack actually isn't too bad, and it can lure in Torn-T which has been gaining lots of popularity recently, as well as defeating Gyarados, one of the only counters to Landorus besides Cress and Mega Latias.

The problem would be actually finding an opportunity to set up RP against HO with Lando's average at best bulk.

I'd also agree that Lando-I is the first thing that comes to mind when I think of "pain in the ass mon to prepare for" solely for the fact that hardly anything serves as a safe switch in for it. I guess Megagross would be up there but that thing has a lot of problems breaking through defensive cores whereas Lando just shreds through them no problem.

It's not as hard as you think it is to set up a Rock Polish. Coming in on something such as non mega evolved Diancie or Metagross, will usually result in your opponent switching out, giving you an opportunity to set up a Rock Polish. Double switches are also a great way of setting up RPs.

 

[SketchUp]

firehusky
While it is true it is very difficult to find out what set Landorus runs, it is not true you have to sac 2 mons before you know what set it runs (it's not like greninja) The lower speed tier and immunities many of its moves have (earth power, sludge wave, focus blast, psychic) makes it a bit easier to scout for the set. It is still a very big threat and a well played Landorus can claim 2 pokemon (or even more) even if you know what moves it run, but losing 2 pokemon only to scout for its coverage is not totally realistic.

 

[firehusky]

firehusky
While it is true it is very difficult to find out what set Landorus runs, it is not true you have to sac 2 mons before you know what set it runs (it's not like greninja) The lower speed tier and immunities many of its moves have (earth power, sludge wave, focus blast, psychic) makes it a bit easier to scout for the set. It is still a very big threat and a well played Landorus can claim 2 pokemon (or even more) even if you know what moves it run, but losing 2 pokemon only to scout for its coverage is not totally realistic.

Probably a bit exaggerated, but you get the idea. Most of the time you'll have to sac at least 1 mon to figure out it's moveset.

 

[Sochlo]

I mean if we're talking HO, then one of the first things is making sure that Lando gets no opportunity to set up lol. I mean, if I were piloting an HO team and was somehow faced with a pre-mega Metagross vs Lando scenario I'd personally just sack my Metagross rather than take chances with it. Same with double switches, in the end it's prediction and risk vs reward, in this case the risk is RP Lando ending the game right there.

But yeah, if you can get the RP up vs HO you're gucci.

 

[EternalSnowman]

The main problem with Landorus-I is that it has a severe 4MSS, it would like to run 10 moves to get past everything that would beat it but it has only 4 moves to do so. It ends up being that you will most likely have something on your team that straight up counters it. Mega-Venusaur for example beats it if it doesnt run Psychic, while Skarmory beats it if it doesnt run Focus Miss (can sometimes beat it even if it is running it) and Landorus-T has a good shot of winning if it doesnt run HP Ice, and these are really common mons in OU. Although Landorus can shred through unprepared teams, it can't run all the moves it wants to, and sometimes it just ends up losing out due to lack of reliable recovery and 4MSS.

TL;DR: While Landorus-I is a threatening mon, its 4MSS can sometimes prevent it's sweep but does make a great wallbreaker, while having an unpredictability factor.

 

[firehusky]

4MSS is when it needs 4 or more moves to be successful. A better example would be Lucario, it needs SD to sweep lategame, Espeed for obvious reasons (priority and stopping stuff like Thund and Talon from ruining it's sweep, CC as a STAB move, Ice Punch to beat Lando-T and Gliscor, Iron Tail for Mega Venu and fairy-types, and crunch for ghost types. Lando-I doesn't need all of it's moves to be successful. Earth Power + 3 coverage moves is sufficient to rip through most teams, and how exactly does Mega Venu beat it?

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 196-231 (53.8 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also it doesn't even need reliable recovery, it's a wallbreaker, not a wall or anything, it doesn't need recovery. Earth Power / Sludge Wave / Focus Blast / Psychic is sufficient to hit like 99% of the meta for neutral damage.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

This is the list of checks fo Landorus:
Taking from here http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ou-checks-compendium.3532549/
(Can switch on it)
Gengar (be ware of Psychic), Gliscor (with Knock off, Toxic and specially Ice Fang), Latios (hard check, use Draco metro/Surf), Talonflame (be aware of Psychic and specially SR), Celebi (be ware of Knock off), Charizard-Y (One fo the best, even if ti's a Fire type), Latias (one fot he better checks), Rotom-W, Gyarados (not Mega evolve if possible), Tornadus-T /specially Assault Vest), Chansey (be aware fo Knock off), Blissey (one of the few reason it's viable is because of Lando-I), Mega Latios/Mega latias (one of the better checks), Cresselia (with Ice Beam), Mandibuzz (be aware of Focus Blast, specially with SR on), Zapdos (soft check without HP Ice because immunity to amin STAB and Heat Wave not beign enough), Bronzong (be ware of Knock off).

Of those, only Cresselia and defensive Mega latias are counters of Landorus. The rest are only checks of Landorus.

(Can't switch on it, but can defeat it 1vs1)
Keldeo (outspeed + STAB Water), Azumarill (STAB Water with Aqua Jet + can take 1 Earth power after SR), Thundurus-I (with HP Ice), M Gardevoir (can take 1 Earth power and Hyper Vopioces OHKOes after SR), Mamoswine (Ice Shard), Starmie (outspeed + Water Move), Kabutops (in rain, please use him only in rain), Kingdra (specially in rain), Kyurem-B (be ware of Focus Blast), M Sceptile (only with Leaf Storm and specially Hp ice), Weavile (strict revenge killer with Ice Shard), Thundurus-T (with HP Ice) and Froslass (outspeed + Ice Beam).

The best way fo dealing with Landorus is using a moderate bulky Pokemon that resist its main STAB (if you notice, all the main checks resist Earth power except Chansey, who is the bane of special attackers anyway).
The best option is Creeselia with Ice Beam, but it really only fits on defensive teams. In more offensive teams, the best Pokemon to use are the Lati@s, followed by Celebi, Charizard Y, Rotom-Wash and Normal Gyarados.

The main problem of Lasndorus (as some people said) is that he has so few direct switch-ins, the majority of them (actually all fot hem bar Cresselia) not being sure switch-ins, causing many teams to have to revenge kill Landorus to defeat it.

Apparently, the problem of Landorus-I is bigger when people advance in the ladder. In the mid-lower ladder, generally switching into a Pokemon with Earth power if the Pokemon that Landorus-I was sent out is heavily affected with it, generally works. However, when advancing in the ladder, more teams are able to make good predictions and will try to use the coverage move that hits your most rpobable switch-in, with makes witching more difficult, specially if you currently has one available answer to Landorus.

And of course, Landorus doesnt have 4MSS. With Earth power, Psychic and Focus Blast it can 2HKo 95% of the metagame and with Knock Off, it can deal with some fo the few things that can switch on Lando (mainly Celebi, Lati@s and Chansey)

 

[firehusky]

I wouldn't really call Celebi a safe switch in to Lando-I. Sludge Wave has been increasing in popularity, and knock off is still quite common. Besides, many of it's checks and counters are bopped by rock slide, which is a cool option to hit zard y, gyarados, mandibuzz, zapdos, and talonflame.

 

[SJCrew]

I recall almost every single Landorus in SPL so far having used Sludge Wave, and I'd gamble it's mostly to quash endgame Clefable sweeps.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

In addition most of the lando switch ins lose to pursuit making countering it even more impossible.