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Other ORAS Metagame Discussion

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Skarmory can also run 29 speed ivs in order to still be slower than Mega Metagross after two Hammer Arms and having an easier time to Counter/Phazing him out.

Metagross analysis mentions not mega evolving first turn in order to underspeed Skarmory after only one Hammer Arm (and you still get to underspeed when Megavolving second turn due to the Mega mechanics), and considering that Skarmory is usually found on defensive builds the loss of initial speed shouldn't hurt too much. So, in order to make Skarmory a full counter to a well-played MegaGross, you need to run a Relaxed nature and 0 spe ivs allows for Skarm to underspeed non-Mega Jolly Metagross after two drops by a single point. Just thought I'd mention this.

Edit: nvm 29 ivs allows underspeeding -1 non-Mega Metagross, and since Metagross needs to Megavolve in order to actually beat Skarm w/HA this is unnecessary.
 
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It takes multiple Hammer Arm hits for Metagross to underspeed Skarmory, actually, during which time Skarm can just phaze it out. That being said, Thunderpunch still isn't the best option coverage-wise, so you're right about that much.

My apologies, I forget stat drops aren't .5 and are instead .67 and only a few Skarm run any speed EVs anymore anyway.
 
Metagross analysis mentions not mega evolving first turn in order to underspeed Skarmory after only one Hammer Arm (and you still get to underspeed when Megavolving second turn due to the Mega mechanics), and considering that Skarmory is usually found on defensive builds the loss of initial speed shouldn't hurt too much. So, in order to make Skarmory a full counter to a well-played MegaGross, you need to run a Relaxed nature and 0 spe ivs allows for Skarm to underspeed non-Mega Jolly Metagross after two drops by a single point. Just thought I'd mention this.

While that's a fair point, it's rather situational. By holding off the evolution in order to take on Skarmory better you're handicapping against the rest of the team. More often than not the Metagross user is going to want to mega evolve as soon as possible.
 
Seriously Guys stop being so freaking ban happy.... First Aegislash then Ninja and now MegaMeta is broken????? Ok I do agree that Ninja had unhealthy centralisation against balance teams and Aegislash influenced the viability of a lot of pokemon but MegaMeta presented none of these traits.... Does Metagross pressure teams that do not take it into account? Yes! But does it invalidate or put extreme pressure on playstyles or make them use Subpar pokemon just to check or counter? No! Does Metagross have few true counters? Yes! But can I pack one of these counters or multiple checks on different types of teams and still keep up with the rest of the metagame? Why not! Due to its subpar attacking STABS, Metagross needs good prediction and decent skill to be used effectively, sure it's a relatively low risk high reward poke, that's why it's S Rank! But just from the Higher Ranks alone, we have Lando T, Thundurus, Bisharp, Char X, Gyarados (Mega and non Mega) , Scarf Heatran, Scarf Garchomp, Mega Sableye, Mega Scizor, Sharp Beak or Banded Talonflame, Sand Rush or Scarf Excadrill, Ferrothorn, MegaMane, Slowbro (Mega and non Mega) and Rotom W, all perfectly capable of coming in on at least two of Metagrosses Moves, some even countering like Slowbro, Ferro, and Defensive Lando T depending on the set, and pressuring the opponent to switch into something that can take all of these threats without sacrificing a poke or momentum. Sure with the proper support Mega Meta wrecks,but the same can be said for all Physical OU sweepers, so yeah
 
Seriously Guys stop being so freaking ban happy.... First Aegislash then Ninja and now MegaMeta is broken????? Ok I do agree that Ninja had unhealthy centralisation against balance teams and Aegislash influenced the viability of a lot of pokemon but MegaMeta presented none of these traits.... Does Metagross pressure teams that do not take it into account? Yes! But does it invalidate or put extreme pressure on playstyles or make them use Subpar pokemon just to check or counter? No! Does Metagross have few true counters? Yes! But can I pack one of these counters or multiple checks on different types of teams and still keep up with the rest of the metagame? Why not! Due to its subpar attacking STABS, Metagross needs good prediction and decent skill to be used effectively, sure it's a relatively low risk high reward poke, that's why it's S Rank! But just from the Higher Ranks alone, we have Lando T, Thundurus, Bisharp, Char X, Gyarados (Mega and non Mega) , Scarf Heatran, Scarf Garchomp, Mega Sableye, Mega Scizor, Sharp Beak or Banded Talonflame, Sand Rush or Scarf Excadrill, Ferrothorn, MegaMane, Slowbro (Mega and non Mega) and Rotom W, all perfectly capable of coming in on at least two of Metagrosses Moves, some even countering like Slowbro, Ferro, and Defensive Lando T depending on the set, and pressuring the opponent to switch into something that can take all of these threats without sacrificing a poke or momentum. Sure with the proper support Mega Meta wrecks,but the same can be said for all Physical OU sweepers, so yeah

Chill out, we're just discussing it. Barely anyone is calling for Metagross to be banned. Also,

"Due to its subpar attacking STABS, Metagross needs good prediction and decent skill to be used effectively" lol this is not true at all, and "depending on the set" sounds awfully familiar.
 
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Seriously Guys stop being so freaking ban happy.... First Aegislash then Ninja and now MegaMeta is broken?????
Just a discussion but I would like to point out some wrong concepts in your post.
But can I pack one of these counters or multiple checks on different types of teams and still keep up with the rest of the metagame? Why not!
Due to its subpar attacking STABS, Metagross needs good prediction and decent skill to be used effectively, sure it's a relatively low risk high reward poke, that's why it's S Rank!
Subpar attacking STABS are not true when we are talking about Tough Claw boosted. Maybe if you wanna talk about their inaccuracies then yeah, maybe they are subpar. Also Metagross doesn't need good prediction, all you need is to be able to identify when to drop the bomb in and there you go.
But just from the Higher Ranks alone, we have Lando T, Thundurus, Bisharp, Char X, Gyarados (Mega and non Mega) , Scarf Heatran, Scarf Garchomp, Mega Sableye, Mega Scizor, Sharp Beak or Banded Talonflame, Sand Rush or Scarf Excadrill, Ferrothorn, MegaMane, Slowbro (Mega and non Mega) and Rotom W, all perfectly capable of coming in on at least two of Metagrosses Moves
- Lando-T, Thundy, Chomp cannot take Ice Punches which is seen on MMeta
- Bisharp, Gyara, Tran, Exca, Ferro cannot take at the minimum 2 Hammer Arms and they certainly do not possess enough of a threat to MMeta (Except Scarf Exca which is imo a subpar choice) as MMeta still outspeeds. Gyara can't switch in on base form Meta cause of Clear Body
- Zard X, Talonflame, Mega Mane, Rotom do not appreciate coming in on an unresisted stab by MMeta and thus do not counter
- Slowbro is dealt with by Grass Knot which is tough claw boosted.
Leaving M-Sab the most solid check to MMeta
, some even countering like Slowbro, Ferro, and Defensive Lando T depending on the set, and pressuring the opponent to switch
into something that can take all of these threats without sacrificing a poke or momentum. Sure with the proper support Mega Meta wrecks,but the same can be said for all Physical OU sweepers, so yeah
MMeta is an extremely low risk mon. It doesn't even need that much of a support because even in it's own rights it can damage a lot of teams. I believe Jukain and MikeDawg had a really long conversation about MMeta in this discusssion thread just less than a page back. I think you could try and give it a light read and it will give you a heads up on why some of us feel that MMeta is a heavier threat than it should be.
 
Mega Metagross can run a full 4 Attacks since it has very good 110 Base Speed. So if you really wanna run coverage moves, it's not losing out on much.
I'm not saying it should be banned. I think it should, however, be suspected. Big difference @ people calling us ban happy.
 
Mega Metagross can run a full 4 Attacks since it has very good 110 Base Speed. So if you really wanna run coverage moves, it's not losing out on much.
I'm not saying it should be banned. I think it should, however, be suspected. Big difference @ people calling us ban happy.
I think its Speed, in addition to its offensive capability (enhanced by Tough Claws), make is a serious threat. It suffers from fourth move syndrome to a certain extent, however. That being said, I think it warrants a test, as it is highly centralizing, virtually forcing you to run a bulky ground/water, or Skarm. Also, keep in mind that Metagross can run Grass Knot/TPunch for the former two, and will eventually beat Skarm with Hammer Arm. It reminds me of Mega Lucario, whose hard hitting attacks and great ability combined with its Speed allowed it to sweep with relative ease. Of course, MegaMeta is bulkier, with 80/150/110 defenses. This, combined with its excellent defensive typing, means it is not easily revenge. Moreover, it resists SR, so count on it coming back in again and again.
 
Moving on from Mega-Metagross, I want to talk about Mega-Gallade for a sec.

IMO this is probably the most overrated and overhyped pokemon in the tier. Even though on paper it looks great in practice I haven't seen anyone use very effectively. Like what team styles is it really troubling? Any defensive team worth its salt either carries Mega-Sableye or Unaware Clefable, and Mega-Gallade doesn't get anywhere with those two in play. Those aren't the most removable Pokemon from the game either. Both have reliable recovery, pseudo status immunity with Magic Bounce / Aromatherpy, and weaknesses to attacking types that are uncommon (as in uncommon coverage moves those being Fairy, Steel, and Poison respectively). Mega-Sableye cannot even be trapped. It's really dissapointing too, because you have this giant nuke that is entirely dead weight in a stall match lol

Next up is offensive builds. Gallade is decently bullky, but doesn't have any meaningful resits to capitalize on that, so strong neutral hits can take their toll. Actually I should note it has 23 less base HP than Terrakion and Keldeo. Its these lack of resists that puts it behind compared to other OU Fighting-types because it can't switch in as easily and it can't find oppurtunities for itself to SD. One of the most important niches for Fighting-types on offensive teams is the ability to stop a +2 Bisharp sweep. Breloom, Keldeo, and Terrakion can do this job well, but because Gallade does not resist Dark type attacks its OHKO'ed by +2 Sucker Punch. The lesser physical bulk and lack of resists come into play when taking some scarf and priority hits. For example:
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 126-148 (45.4 - 53.4%)
252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 145-172 (52.3 - 62%)
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 186-219 (67.1 - 79%)
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gallade: 165-195 (59.5 - 70.3%)
These are are all pretty common revenge killing options and it just seems silly that for something that is touted for having the ability to "tank a hit" it takes like 50%+ lol

The last thing to consider is the use of the mega-slot. Yeah I know a lot of people don't like this line of reasoning but seriously think what does Mega-Gallade offer over most Fighting-types? OU isn't exactly short on viable Fighting-types, compared to say the fairies (there are only 3 non-mega ones in OU and one is sylveon). Taking a quick gander down the viability list you got Keldeo, Terrakion, Breloom, Conkeldurr, Hawlucha, and Chesnaught for non-mega fighting-types. Ignoring Chesnaught here because it normally isn't offensive unless you are fingerscrossed using lol Belly Drum Chesnaught.

Anyway, you find that Gallade isn't really carving out anything for itself. Keldeo has more switchin opportunities because of more bulk and resists, has more initial power with Specs, can cripple checks with burns, and can setup on Sableye. Terrakion is the closest to Gallade, but it has a free moveslot to do whatever it wants with which includes setting up rocks, using Rock Polish (not really used much though), or setting up on Sab with Sub. Spore+ LO SD Breloom can actually be really annoying for both defensive and offensive teams. LO Bullet Seed bops Mega-Sab /Clefable, you can get a free "kill" with spore, and it pressures offense with priority Mach Punch. Conkeldurr is p useless against stall, but it is equally a headache against offense with its bulk+burn immunity. Hawlucha is if your the realest. SubSD screws offensive teams over with Unburden'ed Speed and it can be a menace to stall if played right. All of these guys don't take up a Mega-slot and can be equally effective against offensive teams as mega gallade.

The only thing you can really say is it's the only pokemon there that offers high power but instead of losing to base 110's it ties with them. But tieing isn't good enough because when you play in a match, in the majority of situations you aren't going to risk that tie and switch out and forfeit momentum. That's offering the same result as the musketeers in those scenarios.

edit: really had some clarity and grammar issues o.o
 
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I think its Speed, in addition to its offensive capability (enhanced by Tough Claws), make is a serious threat. It suffers from fourth move syndrome to a certain extent, however. That being said, I think it warrants a test, as it is highly centralizing, virtually forcing you to run a bulky ground/water, or Skarm. Also, keep in mind that Metagross can run Grass Knot/TPunch for the former two, and will eventually beat Skarm with Hammer Arm. It reminds me of Mega Lucario, whose hard hitting attacks and great ability combined with its Speed allowed it to sweep with relative ease. Of course, MegaMeta is bulkier, with 80/150/110 defenses. This, combined with its excellent defensive typing, means it is not easily revenge. Moreover, it resists SR, so count on it coming back in again and again.
4 Move Syndrome is a good problem to have. As it makes your opponent have to guess which coverage moves you're running. I've also heard that its STABs are subpar. Honestly, it's not too bad. Steel got a major buff offensively by hitting Fairies hard. It also doesn't have too many Resistances (Electric, Fire, Water, and Steel). Psychic has little SE coverage (Fighting and Poison), but very good neutral coverage, only being resisted by Steel and Psychic. So as far as STABs, Metagross has it pretty good.

EDIT: Also, the "it takes ups a mega slot" is largely irrelevant, since suspects are tested on their own merits.
 
Just a discussion but I would like to point out some wrong concepts in your post.

Subpar attacking STABS are not true when we are talking about Tough Claw boosted. Maybe if you wanna talk about their inaccuracies then yeah, maybe they are subpar. Also Metagross doesn't need good prediction, all you need is to be able to identify when to drop the bomb in and there you go.

- Lando-T, Thundy, Chomp cannot take Ice Punches which is seen on MMeta
- Bisharp, Gyara, Tran, Exca, Ferro cannot take at the minimum 2 Hammer Arms and they certainly do not possess enough of a threat to MMeta (Except Scarf Exca which is imo a subpar choice) as MMeta still outspeeds. Gyara can't switch in on base form Meta cause of Clear Body
- Zard X, Talonflame, Mega Mane, Rotom do not appreciate coming in on an unresisted stab by MMeta and thus do not counter
- Slowbro is dealt with by Grass Knot which is tough claw boosted.
Leaving M-Sab the most solid check to MMeta

MMeta is an extremely low risk mon. It doesn't even need that much of a support because even in it's own rights it can damage a lot of teams. I believe Jukain and MikeDawg had a really long conversation about MMeta in this discusssion thread just less than a page back. I think you could try and give it a light read and it will give you a heads up on why some of us feel that MMeta is a heavier threat than it should be.
Ok you are right bout the STABS part lemme rephrase.... I know that Mega Metagross deals with its checks with the right coverage move, but in pokemon there are realistically a lot of pokemon able to come in on certain common moves and KO if mets is slightly weakened. Etc I completely acknowledge Bisharp won't live an earthquake orhammer arm, but it'd not too hard to predict the meteor or Zen and switch into those, now putting Metagross in a bad position.
 
4 Move Syndrome is a good problem to have. As it makes your opponent have to guess which coverage moves you're running.

I never understood this argument. In no way is 4MSS ever a good thing even though it makes your opponent guess. When would you ever not benefit from having everything you need in one moveset? If your opponent knew your moveset, but you have all the moves you need, it doesn't matter that they don't need to guess, they're screwed either way since you have every move you want.

Rather, 4MSS gives them the option of guessing your moveset, rather than knowing that your set covers everything you want it to do and resigning to that fact. Give me a Metagross with mash, zen, ice punch, hammer arm, tpunch, grass knot, bullet punch, and hp fire over 4MSS any day.

I'd also personally argue that steel/psychic does not make for "very good" neutral coverage. Being resisted by an entire type (steel) is not really ideal, especially when steel is an excellent defensive typing.

That being said, I'd have to pinpoint Mega Metagross' excellent offensive capabilities solely to Tough Claws, which is honestly a retardedly really good ability. It's a life orb, with no life orb recoil, on a mon with essentially the same Attack stat as Haxorus, but with better speed (nay, excellent speed, in spite of the speed creep), better defensive typing, better spammable stabs ... and has priority. This tough claws boost is why Mega Metagross' coverage options still hurt so much, and why its STABs hurt even more - sometimes in spite of resistances.

I find it rather similar to Lucario (like Reverb) and Greninja in the sense that I don't really try to counter it anymore on my offensive or sometimes even balance teams, I just build to make a lot of my team able to dish out a lot of damage to it before it megas and check it. I don't think it's actually nearly as bad as either, but basically I understand where people are coming from.

Also I know people are trying to find counters for it; I thought I'd just mention one (sorta): Physically defensive rocky helmet Cresselia with twave. It's not really a counter in the sense that it won't reliably win one on one (meteor mash attack boost), but it has some counterish qualities in the sense that it can switch in on it and "take care of it," and if you need to preserve cresselia, you might be able to switch out into something that can take a hit from metagross and be able to kill it with it's speed drop since it's paralyzed. I remember this set starting to gain some popularity on ladder as people's catch-all "new mega" check when Mega Mence was tearing up OU - because it also checked Mence, Metagross, Lopunny, Gallade, Sceptile, etc. Anyway, it does many problems, like getting owned by pretty much any mon with substitute, being toxic fodder, getting trapped easily, not really doing much besides not dying, etc. but it does exist, although somewhat niche, and does "counter" Gross for the most part (i.e. provided they don't get like an atk boost meteor mash crit, and you better pray they don't have a cleric). Due to Cress' passiveness though it has to sacrifice lefties for rocky helmet, or else it'll lose to metagross in the long run over the course of the battle. Anyway, people seem to have forgotten this set exists since Mega Mence got banned, but it's still a fairly reliable answer to Metagross.

But yeah, for the most part Gross doesn't really have many counters (skarm with counter, scizor, Cress sorta, porygon2 sorta - loses in the long run, alomomola sorta, maybe a couple others).
 
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I'm fairly certain that Hammer Arm completely wrecks Skarmory. Speed drop makes it hilarious because Skarmory loses it's flying type after Roost, didn't realize that.

Still not convinced Hammer Arm is the best option though. Personally I'm considering 2 STAB + Ice Punch and Agility. One of those STAB moves being Bullet Punch. Kinda plays like Scizor that way.
 
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 90-106 (26.9 - 31.7%) -- 36.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Skarmory is not really threatened by Hammer Arm, to be honest. I had to edit the calculator as mega metagross wouldn't show up, but this uses his stats. Obviously, it becomes a problem if you sit there and keep tanking hits as it will under speed you when you roost, but hopefully you wouldn't just leave skarmory in without Whirlwind, because that's just a poor decision.

EDIT:
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 90-106 (26.9 - 31.7%) -- 50.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Forgot to also show Rocky Helmet vs. Leftovers calcs. In both of these, if adamant (why would it be with its speed tier) then these become guaranteed 4HKOs and 3HKOs respectively. So yeah, with rocky helmet Metagross is somewhat more threatening to skarm. Not to disregard Hammer Arm, as it is still clearly one of his best move options.
 
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I'm fairly certain that Hammer Arm completely wrecks Skarmory. Speed drop makes it hilarious because Skarmory loses it's flying type after Roost, didn't realize that.

Still not convinced Hammer Arm is the best option though. Personally I'm considering 2 STAB + Ice Punch and Agility. One of those STAB moves being Bullet Punch. Kinda plays like Scizor that way.

Hammer arm is by far the best option, otherwise Ferrothorn and Skarmory lacking counter wall you completely. Hell even Magnezone can trap and kill you then. Ice coverage really isn't necessary imo because even defensive Lando-t has limited switch ins vs meteor mash. It takes 29% minimum at -1 and if Metagross happens to get an attack boost the second time Lando switches in, lol goodbye Landorus. If you manage to get the attack boost on the first switch in you still beat it 1v1 because earthquake fails to KO. None of this is even taking into account the fact that you might have prevented intimidate with clear body, in which case Landorus gets even more fucked. Basically none of the things you are hitting with ice coverage like switching in on meteor mash, and most of them are crushed if you get the boost.

I don't really like agility either. With its bulk, typing, and already high base speed its pretty difficult to revenge. You leave yourself walled by way too many threats if you opt to go for agility.
 
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Do people not run Counter on Skarm? I mean, you basically need it for Bisharp anyhow, and it means that neither Hammer Arm nor Thunderpunch Megagross give it much trouble. I always assumed that Counter was standard.

I haven't played much OU since the suspect laddering ended, but while Megagross was a top-tier threat, I didn't find it overwhelming in the same way that, say, Mega-Mawile was (or Greninja for that matter). However, I was primarily laddering with a team that was amply prepared for it, so I might be biased. That said, from watching battles just now, its Agility set seems pretty subpar. Maybe I'm just watching crappy players, but it seems like it really needs the coverage that all four moves provide to actually be effective; otherwise, there's just way too much that walls it on every team. The four attacks set is unpredictable enough and has broad enough coverage to be a really serious threat, but until I see some high ladder replays with the Agility set showing me otherwise, I'm going to assume it's not really worth it.

EDIT: Greninja'd.
 
Hammer arm is by far the best option, otherwise Ferrothorn and Skarmory lacking counter wall you completely. Hell even Magnezone can trap and kill you then. Ice coverage really isn't necessary imo because even defensive Lando-t has limited switch ins vs meteor mash. It takes 29% minimum at -1 and if Metagross happens to get an attack boost the second time Lando switches in, lol goodbye Landorus. If you manage to get the attack boost on the first switch in you still beat it 1v1 because earthquake fails to KO. None of this is even taking into account the fact that you might have prevented intimidate with clear body, in which case Landorus gets even more fucked. Basically none of the things you are hitting with ice coverage like switching in on meteor mash, and most of them are crushed if you get the boost.

I don't really like agility either. With its bulk, typing, and already high base speed its pretty difficult to revenge. You leave yourself walled by way too many threats if you opt to go for agility.
Lando is the most prevalent threat in the meta, and going for hax boosts to OHKO it is a bad strategy.
The point of agility is to make yourself faster than scarf Lando.
I think we are talking about two very different builds as I also would prefer priority over meteor mash.
 
Lando is the most prevalent threat in the meta, and going for hax boosts to OHKO it is a bad strategy.
The point of agility is to make yourself faster than scarf Lando.
I think we are talking about two very different builds as I also would prefer priority over meteor mash.

I assumed you were using ice punch for defensive Lando, my bad. Why would you run bullet punch though? You outspeed the entire game + nearly every scarfer after an agility boost. There is no need to run priority. It's silly enough to run bullet punch and meteor mash on an agility set anyway, but using it instead of meteor mash doesn't make any sense at all.
 
I assumed you were using ice punch for defensive Lando, my bad. Why would you run bullet punch though? You outspeed the entire game + nearly every scarfer after an agility boost. There is no need to run priority. It's silly enough to run bullet punch and meteor mash on an agility set anyway, but using it instead of meteor mash doesn't make any sense at all.
Accuracy, plus there are times when you won't have a turn to set up. You're probably right though, on agility builds it's probably better to run meteor and bullet punch on jolly builds.
 
I'm fairly certain that Hammer Arm completely wrecks Skarmory. Speed drop makes it hilarious because Skarmory loses it's flying type after Roost, didn't realize that.

Still not convinced Hammer Arm is the best option though. Personally I'm considering 2 STAB + Ice Punch and Agility. One of those STAB moves being Bullet Punch. Kinda plays like Scizor that way.
Agility + Bullet Punch is pretty redundant. Since after an Agility boost, Metagross outspeeds everything it needs to. Plus, it's fast enough to not rely on priority. Use Meteor Mash.


Straying away from Metagross, what do you guys think of Serperior now that Contrary is legal on it?
In my opinion, it's very comparable to Talonflame in the sense that their primary offensive stats are laughable, but they have the tools (Abilities) to make every bit of use out of it. They're also both excellent cleaners that dislike a common hard counter, Heatran.
Serperior can also do one thing that any other Special Attacker would kill to be able to do, 2HKO Chansey. Granted, that's at +6, but Serperior reaches that relatively quickly. 113 base Speed also puts Serperior in a great Speed tier, outspeeding Gengar, Mega Metagross, and Thundurus. And though Serperior's offensive movepool is pretty barren, it has a plethora of Support moves including Synthesis, Leech Seed, Glare, Dual Screens, etc. It also has the bulk to run any of those moves. Synthesis is my preference since it adds to Serperior's survivabilty without sacrificing its offensive presence.
So, if you have teammates to take care of Heatran and Talonflame (like my Mega Gyarados), then Serperior is a great sweeper, and I will be genuinely surprised if it gets tiered anywhere below BL.
 
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Agility + Bullet Punch is pretty redundant. Since after an Agility boost, Metagross outspeeds everything it needs to. Plus, it's fast enough to not rely on priority. Use Meteor Mash.


Straying away from Metagross, what do you guys think of Serperior now that Contrary is legal on it?
In my opinion, it's very comparable to Talonflame in the sense that their primary offensive stats are laughable, but they have the tools (Abilities) to make every bit of use out of it. They're also both excellent cleaners that dislike a common hard counter, Heatran.
Serperior can also do one thing that any other Special Attacker would kill to be able to do, 2HKO Chansey. Granted, that's at +6, but Serperior reaches that relatively quickly. 113 base Speed also puts Serperior in a great Speed tier, outspeeding Gengar, Mega Metagross, and Thundurus. And though Serperior's offensive movepool is pretty barren, it has a plethora of Support moves including Synthesis, Leech Seed, Glare, Dual Screens, etc. It also has the bulk to run any of those moves. Synthesis is my preference since it adds to Serperior's survivabilty without sacrificing its offensive presence.
So, if you have teammates to take care of Heatran and Talonflame (like my Mega Gyarados), then Serperior is a great sweeper, and I will be genuinely surprised if it gets tiered anywhere below BL.
I agree on the Bullet Punch note, on Agility builds meteor is a better move, but BP is better on Jolly builds.

As for Serperior, he isn't very splashable as grass doesn't hit as much as say ice or rock, but the highly spammable boosting leaf storm and good speed make it great. I think it gets dragon pulse and it also is going to end up relying on a hidden power for coverage. That makes it sadly predictable. BL is as high as I can see it, I would expect a solid UU showing.
 
I agree on the Bullet Punch note, on Agility builds meteor is a better move, but BP is better on Jolly builds.

As for Serperior, he isn't very splashable as grass doesn't hit as much as say ice or rock, but the highly spammable boosting leaf storm and good speed make it great. I think it gets dragon pulse and it also is going to end up relying on a hidden power for coverage. That makes it sadly predictable. BL is as high as I can see it, I would expect a solid UU showing.
I try to avoid simple, self righteous responses like this, but you need to know that bullet punch is a bad choice on any form of metagross. It's faster than like 70% of the tier and bullet punch does laughable damage when you cant boost with SD. The standard hammer arm, grass knot, meteor mash and zen headbutt is the master race wallbreaking set. You can obviously substitute some moves with others, but dont substitute bullet punch with anything. It's useless.

I don't really have a comment about serperior.
 
I try to avoid simple, self righteous responses like this, but you need to know that bullet punch is a bad choice on any form of metagross. It's faster than like 70% of the tier and bullet punch does laughable damage when you cant boost with SD. The standard hammer arm, grass knot, meteor mash and zen headbutt is the master race wallbreaking set. You can obviously substitute some moves with others, but dont substitute bullet punch with anything. It's useless.
tbh Metagross doesnt really need SD to use Bullet Punch effectively. Bullet Punch isnt meant to sweep like it is on Scizor, rather, its meant to be a move that picks off weakened opponents that would otherwise outspeed, or even speed tie with gross. Examples include coming in on a weakened Choice Scarf Lando T thats locked into EQ, or facing an opposing Gengar thats at 50% health. Both of these Scenarios poses situations where Metagross either straight up loses, or could potentially lose depending on what the RNG says. Instead of having to deal with that, Bullet Punch just simply knocks the two out and Metagross goes on its way. Its unexpected, and frankly, quite useful in a real game scenario.

Heres an example to clarify my point: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/battletower-ou-318093

Late game, Metagross gets an attack boost from Meteor Mash that can secure me the game. My opponent baits in the Hammer Arm (as I already revealed it) with his heatran, and doubles to Gliscor. Unfortunately for my opponent, that puts him in BP range, which allows me to pick off the Gliscor and secure me the game. Now I realize that this may not be the best of examples, but generally situations come up where Metagross is in a position where it has the ability to knock out an opponent that would otherwise beat it, and BP comes in clutch.

Of course, you lose to things that Grass Knot hit, but there are five other teammates for that =]
 
tbh Metagross doesnt really need SD to use Bullet Punch effectively. Bullet Punch isnt meant to sweep like it is on Scizor, rather, its meant to be a move that picks off weakened opponents that would otherwise outspeed, or even speed tie with gross. Examples include coming in on a weakened Choice Scarf Lando T thats locked into EQ, or facing an opposing Gengar thats at 50% health. Both of these Scenarios poses situations where Metagross either straight up loses, or could potentially lose depending on what the RNG says. Instead of having to deal with that, Bullet Punch just simply knocks the two out and Metagross goes on its way. Its unexpected, and frankly, quite useful in a real game scenario.

Heres an example to clarify my point: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/battletower-ou-318093

Late game, Metagross gets an attack boost from Meteor Mash that can secure me the game. My opponent baits in the Hammer Arm (as I already revealed it) with his heatran, and doubles to Gliscor. Unfortunately for my opponent, that puts him in BP range, which allows me to pick off the Gliscor and secure me the game. Now I realize that this may not be the best of examples, but generally situations come up where Metagross is in a position where it has the ability to knock out an opponent that would otherwise beat it, and BP comes in clutch.

Of course, you lose to things that Grass Knot hit, but there are five other teammates for that =]
I guess you are right, but i still dont find it to be worth running BP for a rarely occuring niche rather than having better coverage with a stronger move. Though i'm sure you can afford to run it if the rest of your team can cover megagross like you said
 
I guess you are right, but i still dont find it to be worth running BP for a rarely occuring niche rather than having better coverage with a stronger move. Though i'm sure you can afford to run it if the rest of your team can cover megagross like you said

I wouldn't really consider the usage of priority to ever be "rarely occurring" since there a lot of scarf users in the tier, same with less defensive mons not taking well to Bullet Punch like MLop. Coming off that attack and boosted by Tough Claws MGross' priority may not be at the level of Scizor but certainly finds itself welcome enough to use.
 
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