Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion

[Wanka]

I have to say that the support psy can provide for hoopa is pretty insane. Even with a simple core that Twix displayed. When you look at a core like hoopa wobba core you don't necessarily catch the idea right away but it works to a tee. You look at hoop u and you think ok, a really good way to stop something like this is to capitalize off of its sub par speed and limit its opportunities with faster wall breakers. Then a mon like wobba comes into play because what does wobba do? It stops those wall breakers in their tracks and traps them succesfully. This gives hoopa so much more freedom to just eat balance builds alive because of the support it can get on psy. And with u turn support provided by a mon like victini is just unreal and it lets it come in and a lot of slow passive walls that are looking to wall tini and get u turned on.

I got the chance to battle Twix today with dragon and I have to say that his core ate me alive as well. Even though wobba did not trap any of my mons, I was forced to have to play around it or else the mons that could threaten hoopa like kyu b and dragonite would just get trapped and killed. I ended up losing those mons because I had to play so predictable and I ended up just getting swept by it because nothing else could one shot it.

I don't see this mon being anywhere close to healthy, but I think it does deserve more time because there are arguments against it that are completely viable.

 

[Fractions.]

I have to say that the support psy can provide for hoopa is pretty insane. Even with a simple core that Twix displayed. When you look at a core like hoopa wobba core you don't necessarily catch the idea right away but it works to a tee. You look at hoop u and you think ok, a really good way to stop something like this is to capitalize off of its sub par speed and limit its opportunities with faster wall breakers. Then a mon like wobba comes into play because what does wobba do? It stops those wall breakers in their tracks and traps them succesfully. This gives hoopa so much more freedom to just eat balance builds alive because of the support it can get on psy. And with u turn support provided by a mon like victini is just unreal and it lets it come in and a lot of slow passive walls that are looking to wall tini and get u turned on.

I got the chance to battle Twix today with dragon and I have to say that his core ate me alive as well. Even though wobba did not trap any of my mons, I was forced to have to play around it or else the mons that could threaten hoopa like kyu b and dragonite would just get trapped and killed. I ended up losing those mons because I had to play so predictable and I ended up just getting swept by it because nothing else could one shot it.

I don't see this mon being anywhere close to healthy, but I think it does deserve more time because there are arguments against it that are completely viable.

I always had a feel that Psychic could be exceptionally good with Hoopa. Didn't have any replays. The core seems powerful, as quoted. Hoopa seems to be pretty stable now, although I have seen it sweep easily in the late-game, when the opponent's team is worn out due to constant switches.
The problem is that, most of the types cannot bring a safe switch-in to Hoopa U, making it somewhat intimidating.
Please post your thoughts about this.

 

[Nani Man]

Alright guys, the council has made a collective vote on the biggest threats in each of our opinions, found here for your reference. Anyway, Altarianite was deemed the highest threat and will be assessed first. Details will be revealed soon by the council . Also, note that the order of the next threats won't be the same (or limited to) as those listed, so keep a lookout on the thread for further developments and discussion.

Anyway, just to notify people, I will be quitting and leaving the monotype council and community. I had a lot of fun leading the metagame and being apart of the council and I hope the efforts I put into shaping the metagame by introducing our own banlist and breaking away from OU Monotype, as well as the concept of Type Bans continue to be used as means of improving the metagame. I'm looking back when I was first put in place to lead the meta, and all we had was one little thread with not much activity and no possible avenues to change the meta without relying on OU, and my first goals as leader were to place a heavy emphasis on the forums and break away from OU, and in doing that, we've gone really popular and become the best OM around (not biased :p).

I had planned to leave the monotype community but I felt I needed to stay a bit more to satisfy my conscience that the metagame would be improving due to my recent lack of activity back when no council was existent, and I see it definitely is (our council is tanned). I feel I've done my bit and can finally move on, as I've lost interest for a long time. Thanks for the good memories guys, I'll never forget the mono community. You guys were hilarious and tanned af. See you around! Thanks to everyone that helped me (you know who you are) and shoutout to anttya sae dow arifeen poi and many other users that aren't around here anymore (5th gen mono is still the best :p)! a lot more users to mention but you know who you are #OGs
Oh btw I feel the need to post this pic just to remind everyone when I created OTs, the first winners ever were:

Hide

good times hahaha plz win #1 with my OG steel

thanks again guys

 

[Entei]

Alright guys, the council has made a collective vote on the biggest threats in each of our opinions, found here for your reference. Anyway, Altarianite was deemed the highest threat and will be assessed first. Details will be revealed soon by the council . Also, note that the order of the next threats won't be the same (or limited to) as those listed, so keep a lookout on the thread for further developments and discussion.

Anyway, just to notify people, I will be quitting and leaving the monotype council and community. I had a lot of fun leading the metagame and being apart of the council and I hope the efforts I put into shaping the metagame by introducing our own banlist and breaking away from OU Monotype, as well as the concept of Type Bans continue to be used as means of improving the metagame. I'm looking back when I was first put in place to lead the meta, and all we had was one little thread with not much activity and no possible avenues to change the meta without relying on OU, and my first goals as leader were to place a heavy emphasis on the forums and break away from OU, and in doing that, we've gone really popular and become the best OM around (not biased :p).

I had planned to leave the monotype community but I felt I needed to stay a bit more to satisfy my conscience that the metagame would be improving due to my recent lack of activity back when no council was existent, and I see it definitely is (our council is tanned). I feel I've done my bit and can finally move on, as I've lost interest for a long time. Thanks for the good memories guys. See you around! Thanks to everyone that helped me (you know who you are) and shoutout to anttya sae dow arifeen poi and many other users that aren't around here anymore (5th gen mono is still the best :p)! a lot more users to mention but you know who you are #OGs
Oh btw I feel the need to post this pic just to remind everyone when I created OTs, the first winners ever were:

Hide

good times hahaha plz win #1 with my OG steel

thanks again guys

I'm glad for every second I got to spend with you, you are an AMAZING person, you're kind, you're hilarious and most importantly, you're TANNED!

I hope you find a way to come back to us one day :/
You should know you're welcome at any given time back into this community, heck it's not like you will ever be forgotten.

I wish you the best of luck in any damn thing you decide to do, I hope you achieve greatness & succeed in whatever it is you're aiming for.

#PRAISENaniMan

 

[DEG]

That was a great run Nani Man every journey has an end that can be sad or happy, thanks for the amazing times my man, all the memories you created here won't fade away easily. Goodluck on your next journey adventurer, stay safe and be sure to check on us every once in a while ;)

 

[The Immortal]

So as to not take this thread off topic, any more messages should be posted on Nani Man's profile.

As for the council, Articuno I is replacing him.

 

[Acast]

Sad to see you go, Nani. Stay tanned. (Posted before I saw TI's post.)

On another note, this is an honest question to the Council, because I don't quite understand your reasoning. For those of you that voted for a suspect of Charizardite X on Flying teams only, why not Fire too? I realize that Charizard Y is far more common, but X on a Fire team is arguably just as much of a threat to Electric and Ghost as on a Flying team, so why are we differentiating? Is it a similar situation to Mega Gallade on Psychic, where one type doesn't provide enough support to make the Pokemon broken? If that is the reasoning, what exactly makes Charizard X on a Fire team more manageable against Electric? The only major thing I can think of is the lack of Heal Bell support and maybe hazard control, but Electric has no viable Stealth Rock users anyway.
I'm not trying to claim any of you are wrong. Just trying to understand your reasoning on Charizard X.

 

[Dece1t]

Sad to see you go, Nani. Stay tanned.

On another note, this is an honest question to the Council, because I don't quite understand your reasoning. For those of you that voted for a suspect of Charizardite X on Flying teams only, why not Fire too? I realize that Charizard Y is far more common, but X on a Fire team is arguably just as much of a threat to Electric and Ghost as on a Flying team, so why are we differentiating? Is it a similar situation to Mega Gallade on Psychic, where one type doesn't provide enough support to make the Pokemon broken? If that is the reasoning, what exactly makes Charizard X on a Fire team more manageable against Electric? The only major thing I can think of is the lack of Heal Bell support and maybe hazard control, but Electric has no viable Stealth Rock users anyway.
I'm not trying to claim any of you are wrong. Just trying to understand your reasoning on Charizard X.

On Flying, Char X has a lot more support around it, such as Skarmory, Togekiss, Lando-T, ect. On Fire, in terms of support, it's pretty minimal, unless you go with Screens Rotom-H lol. On Ghost, and as you said electric, yes, it is just as threatening, I agree with you there. However, for types such as, idk, Bug, Dragon, Psychic, since there is less support on fire teams, it usually is harder to switch Zard x out, since there really isn't any go to walls on fire besides Torkoal, who has no recovery and gets worn down easy.

 

[SirSkit]

Sad to see you go, Nani. Stay tanned.

On another note, this is an honest question to the Council, because I don't quite understand your reasoning. For those of you that voted for a suspect of Charizardite X on Flying teams only, why not Fire too? I realize that Charizard Y is far more common, but X on a Fire team is arguably just as much of a threat to Electric and Ghost as on a Flying team, so why are we differentiating? Is it a similar situation to Mega Gallade on Psychic, where one type doesn't provide enough support to make the Pokemon broken? If that is the reasoning, what exactly makes Charizard X on a Fire team more manageable against Electric? The only major thing I can think of is the lack of Heal Bell support and maybe hazard control, but Electric has no viable Stealth Rock users anyway.
I'm not trying to claim any of you are wrong. Just trying to understand your reasoning on Charizard X.

I think a major difference between Charizard X on Flying and Charizard X on Fire kinda lies with how it doesn't really form as strong of a core on Fire, whereas Flying is known for its great cores. I'd agree that Mega Charizard X may very well destroy several types even on a Fire Monotype, but it does also (somewhat) destroy the same types as its other teammates. Like, Charizard X destroying types like Steel, Grass, Electric, and Ghost (arguably by itself) was more of a problem on Flying because it didn't necessarily have teammates who could do the same, which gave Flying an advantage against types which it wouldn't normally handle as easily. On Fire, however, in general, they already deal with those Monotypes a little more easily, so it didn't really add any uh, "lose at team preview" or excessive lopsided matchups for a Fire Monotype. Ghost, Steel, Electric, and Grass would already struggle with Volcarona, Infernape, etc, so it doesn't really throw the metagame as much as it would on Flying I think.

 

[Tyke]

Sad to see you go, Nani. Stay tanned. (Posted before I saw TI's post.)

On another note, this is an honest question to the Council, because I don't quite understand your reasoning. For those of you that voted for a suspect of Charizardite X on Flying teams only, why not Fire too? I realize that Charizard Y is far more common, but X on a Fire team is arguably just as much of a threat to Electric and Ghost as on a Flying team, so why are we differentiating? Is it a similar situation to Mega Gallade on Psychic, where one type doesn't provide enough support to make the Pokemon broken? If that is the reasoning, what exactly makes Charizard X on a Fire team more manageable against Electric? The only major thing I can think of is the lack of Heal Bell support and maybe hazard control, but Electric has no viable Stealth Rock users anyway.
I'm not trying to claim any of you are wrong. Just trying to understand your reasoning on Charizard X.

Tbh fire doesn't have the support flying has to bolster Zard-X, namely...

-Ease keeping hazards off the field

-Defensive support for offensive Zard-X checks

In the end, Charizard-X isn't really changing the game for fire teams; any team whose aggressive about keeping rocks on the field can put pressure far more effectively on fire than flying, pushing Zard into revenge killing range or just keeping it from ever setting up.

That said, I definitely want to toy around with megazard-x on fire some more.

~~go in peace, tanned overlord~~

 

[Entei]

Sad to see you go, Nani. Stay tanned. (Posted before I saw TI's post.)

On another note, this is an honest question to the Council, because I don't quite understand your reasoning. For those of you that voted for a suspect of Charizardite X on Flying teams only, why not Fire too? I realize that Charizard Y is far more common, but X on a Fire team is arguably just as much of a threat to Electric and Ghost as on a Flying team, so why are we differentiating? Is it a similar situation to Mega Gallade on Psychic, where one type doesn't provide enough support to make the Pokemon broken? If that is the reasoning, what exactly makes Charizard X on a Fire team more manageable against Electric? The only major thing I can think of is the lack of Heal Bell support and maybe hazard control, but Electric has no viable Stealth Rock users anyway.
I'm not trying to claim any of you are wrong. Just trying to understand your reasoning on Charizard X.

Fire doesnt give ZardX the support it gets from Flying.

Plus fire Megas are not very good besides Zard Y/Zard X. - Y being exceptionally good and being very supportive with Sun.

I see where you're coming from but if it gets banned on Fire it only leaves Fire with 1 outclassing (MegaRupt & MegaDoom) mega.

Zard X setting up behind Screens that a rotom could provide works AMAZING and helps fire a TON against types such as Dragon, Electric( pretty even matchup, unless u have Zard X :3), Fire ( :s ) and Normal.
^but thats it

Flying gives it a lot more than that and gives it a lot more opportunities.

It also takes less chip damage from rocks so its more perseverable.

 

[Acast]

Tbh fire doesn't have the support flying has to bolster Zard-X, namely...

-Ease keeping hazards off the field

-Defensive support for offensive Zard-X checks

In the end, Charizard-X isn't really changing the game for fire teams; any team whose aggressive about keeping rocks on the field can put pressure far more effectively on fire than flying, pushing Zard into revenge killing range or just keeping it from ever setting up.

That said, I definitely want to toy around with megazard-x on fire some more.

~~go in peace, tanned overlord~~

The reason Zard X is considered for a suspect at all is that it is an easy win against specific types, particularly Electric. I agree Fire has more trouble keeping hazards away than Flying does, but in a battle against Electric, that disadvantage no longer applies. Sticky Web is the only hazard Electric can set up without using Stunfisk. Torkoal won't mind switching into a Sticky Web and Zard is flying before it mega evolves, so it doesn't have to worry about the speed drop unless it switches out after mega evolving.

It is true that you will rarely see Charizard X on Fire, but the few times you do see it, I think it would dominate Electric just as much as if it were on Flying. I agree with SirSkit and his point that it doesn't form a core on Fire quite like it does on Flying, but I still think a global ban would be better. Partly just because it's simpler, but mostly for the reasons I stated above.

 

[DoW]

Many of the arguments against Zard X being broken were that it can be paralysed and then dealt with from there. While I'm not sure these are great arguments in any case, the main response has been that togekiss often runs heal bell. I don't think this in itself is the reason Zard X seems less broken on fire, but it's a good example of times when team support really helps make Zard X broken on Flying.

I also made a post in the monotype cores thread a while ago for the Zard X / Lando-i core, back when most people were running lando-t on generic flying due to zapdos being around. I think my post, highlighting how they deal with each others' weaknesses, holds even more water now than it did in the past, and is another such example of Zard X being more difficult to deal with in general on flying.

Note I'm not arguing outright that Zard X isn't broken on Fire, rather attempting to point out why it's more of a threat on Flying. I think if Zard X is still a significant problem for a number of types after a flying ban, it could be looked at in general, however I'm not a fan of banning when bans aren't needed, as a more diverse meta (especially one where there are some ninetales/zard x fire teams which are often great fun) is always better.

 

[thesecondbest]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-253880508
this happenes against ice too
This thing can actually beat any team. I think it's uncompetitive and should be instantly banned... and I'm actually not joking.

 

[Azelea]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-253880508
this happenes against ice too
This thing can actually beat any team. I think it's uncompetitive and should be instantly banned... and I'm actually not joking.

Are you seriously saying that Jirachi should be instantly banned? uhm, Maybe you should add something to your team thats not weak to steel, like klefki.Klefki would have Twaved' it and made it slower than your Offensive pokemon, it could have set screens to make your pokemon take iron heads more easily and it could have killed it with foul play. fyi that team gets swept by Scarf Exca, Scarf Zone, Scizor. Does that mean they should be "instantly banned too"? Using Jirachi isnt "Uncompetitive" Serene Grace Flinching isnt broken its just playing with chances, i mean you are using togekiss yourself. If its scarf Avalugg can take hit's and eq it(unless you get haxed) if its not, weavile beats it 1v1"this thing can actually beat any team" Every type has a Check for Jirachi, i mean EVERY type.

Try to reason with your arguments before making a post, and dont post after being salty from a match. Im sorry if i offended you with this post.

 

[thesecondbest]

You can't play around flinches besides bringing inner focus (no fairies get it) or an above 100 speed scarfer. Besides mega diancie, every fairy is below 100, and that cant also run scarf. So there is literally no way to stop it from beating your team. Ice would be forced to run Scarf Weavile (how dumb does that sound?) and rock also has nothing. This strategy can beat you NO MATTER WHAT YOU BRING.

 

[Tyke]

Many of the arguments against Zard X being broken were that it can be paralysed and then dealt with from there. While I'm not sure these are great arguments in any case, the main response has been that togekiss often runs heal bell. I don't think this in itself is the reason Zard X seems less broken on fire, but it's a good example of times when team support really helps make Zard X broken on Flying.

Also, it's not like a paralyzed charizard-x will have all that much trouble sweeping electric anyways.

 

[Neimenko]

You can't play around flinches besides bringing inner focus (no fairies get it) or an above 100 speed scarfer. Besides mega diancie, every fairy is below 100, and that cant also run scarf. So there is literally no way to stop it from beating your team. Ice would be forced to run Scarf Weavile (how dumb does that sound?) and rock also has nothing. This strategy can beat you NO MATTER WHAT YOU BRING.

Screens t wave klefki could've prevented that, and while it can be a pain, as Azelea said. serence grace flinching is just playing with chances and it usually won't win you the game. It can annoy ice but ice can play around it. If it's not scarfed weavile destroyes it, if it's scarfed avalugg can take a hit and retaliate back with eq if it doesn't get flinched, while jirachi will be taking dmg from rocky helmet if avalugg carries it. Tbh so many things can sweep ice, any steel type puts huge pressure on ice, Jirachi isn't even close to most threatning for it.

 

[BibarelThump]

I just wanted to ask if this is the place to talk Core Challenge, or if there's a chance that Core Challenge threads will be updated per core challenge so people can discuss their experiences and recommendations? I think it'd be okay to have a thread dedicated to the Core Challenge of the week.

 

[scpinion]

I just wanted to ask if this is the place to talk Core Challenge, or if there's a chance that Core Challenge threads will be updated per core challenge so people can discuss their experiences and recommendations? I think it'd be okay to have a thread dedicated to the Core Challenge of the week.

The Monotype room is probably the best place to discuss the challenges. I think the core challenges are awesome (I swear I'm not biased), but I'm not convinced they deserve their own thread over here on Smogon.

 

[Freeroamer]

Hi guys, I'd like to announce something very important, the very first Monotype public suspect! In this test we will be suspecting Altarianite on both Flying and Dragon teams.

There have been concerns throughout the community about Altaria's effectiveness against a multitude of types as well as it's varied movepool which essentially allows it to pick it's own checks and counters outside of Mega Venusaur, arguably it's only hard counter to all sets. This is further bolstered by the fact that it is available to two extremely prominent types within the Monotype metagame, in Flying and Dragon, which means it usually has the team support that any mon requires to be effective.

To achieve the requirements to vote in this suspect test you will need to accumulate 2600 COIL on the regular Monotype ladder where Altarianite will be unbanned. To check your current COIL, simply PM "The Lord Monotyke" .coil and it will return your current figure. If you want to calculate the exact number of games a certain GXE requires, go here and replace the word GXE with the numerical GXE you're interested in and click search. To learn more about the COIL system, read Antar's thread here. This suspect will not count towards the Tiering Contributor badge.

~Credits to scpinion for adding that extremely useful feature and for TLM in general

Some reference GXEs and the number of games required:

GXE 70 = 150 games
GXE 75 = 78 games
GXE 77 = 66 games
GXE 80 = 54 games
GXE 85 = 42 games

(These reqs are subject to change if needed)

The account you achieve your reqs with must be created on or after the date of this post and must have the tag MS1 at the start of it so we can ensure that everyone laddered within the suspect period. This suspect will end on the 12th of August, 11:59 PM EST by which time you must have identified with your reqs in the identification thread. The identification thread will go up during the suspect period and will be announced here as well as linked in the Monotype room intro.

Happy Laddering! If you have any questions feel free to PM council members either on Smogon or on PS!

 

[Isza]

Something I can do ! I'm down

 

[Air Jak]

Altaria is healthy :) Said no one ever

 

[scpinion]

Sad to see you go, Nani. Stay tanned. (Posted before I saw TI's post.)

On another note, this is an honest question to the Council, because I don't quite understand your reasoning. For those of you that voted for a suspect of Charizardite X on Flying teams only, why not Fire too? I realize that Charizard Y is far more common, but X on a Fire team is arguably just as much of a threat to Electric and Ghost as on a Flying team, so why are we differentiating? Is it a similar situation to Mega Gallade on Psychic, where one type doesn't provide enough support to make the Pokemon broken? If that is the reasoning, what exactly makes Charizard X on a Fire team more manageable against Electric? The only major thing I can think of is the lack of Heal Bell support and maybe hazard control, but Electric has no viable Stealth Rock users anyway.
I'm not trying to claim any of you are wrong. Just trying to understand your reasoning on Charizard X.

I haven't been ignoring this...just getting things set up for the alt suspect!

I prefer the type-only ban for Charizardite X because it meets two of our suspect criteria on Flying, opposed to arguably meeting the first requirement on Fire.

1. The Pokemon creates an auto-win condition against many types (3 is an absolute minimum).
....
4. The Pokemon is an integral part of a core that cannot be beaten by most teams.

Zard X is hard to handle for a number of types, regardless of what team it is on (1st criteria). However, the strategies these types have for beating it are significantly more effective in the matchup vs. Fire.

Electric is an excellent example of this. Once the CharX is para'd, it is neutered for the rest of the match. No need to worry about a Heal Bell user coming in and giving it another chance to sweep (Flareon is not viable imo).

For Ghost, once they set SR Torkoal can't spin and people aren't running Defog ZardX on Fire (or at least I view that as a waste). SR vs. a Fire team is a lasting advantage and the Ghost user can capitalize by forcing switches w/ its bulky core. If they don't have something to deal w/ a +1 Zard, then that is on them.

DD Zard X w/ EQ + a Fire move pretty much 6-0's Steel when it is on a Flying team. It does the same on Fire, but that matchup already has Infernape, which is just as big of a problem for Steel to deal with. The match up is not tilted solely because Zard X is there.

Bug, Grass, and Ice are a similar story to Steel...they were already going to struggle with Fire regardless of Zard X. In fact, Zard Y can be more troublesome for them in some cases.

All the stuff I just listed goes out the window when Zard X is on a Flying team, which allows it to meet the 1st criteria. Electric can't reliably para. Ghost can't keep Flying from Defogging. Steel now has another "auto-lose" 'mon/matchup. This is paired with its amazing ability to soak up electric/ice attacks for the rest of the team, which opens up the 4th criteria as a reason to suspect. I don't think anyone will argue the Flying core w/ Zard X is excellent.

If we were discussing Zard X within the context of the 3rd criteria, then I would wholly support a global ban, but I don't view it as broken by that criteria atm.

3. The Pokemon itself is broken by either a) team support or b) natural strength.

 

[BibarelThump]

The Monotype room is probably the best place to discuss the challenges. I think the core challenges are awesome (I swear I'm not biased), but I'm not convinced they deserve their own thread over here on Smogon.

Talking about it in the room is boring, and can only be discussed with those in the chatroom at that time. I fully believe a thread dedicated to CC is not out of the question, considering people can use it as a reference for their own team-building, or even enjoy sharing some fun encounters while laddering.