Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion

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Life > Monotype... unfortunately :)
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(art by Acast)

Welcome to the Monotype metagame discussion thread!

Viability Rankings / Good Cores / Monotype on Showdown / Usage Stats / Sample Teams
If you're new to the OM forum, Monotype is a really simple concept; you build a team of six Pokemon sharing one common type and fight against teams with the same restriction. You are allowed to use Pokemon with dual-typing on a team represented by either type, but every other Pokemon must share the same type. For example, you can use Scrafty, a Fighting/Dark-type Pokemon, on a Mono-Fighting or a Mono-Dark team. If you choose Scrafty, you can also use Cacturne, a Grass/Dark-type Pokemon, and create a Mono-Dark team with the two of them, but you cannot use Venusaur, a Grass/Poison-type Pokemon, because it shares no common typing with Scrafty and Cacturne.

Some Mega Evolutions change their typing upon Mega Evolving. When using a Mega Evo that changes its typing, you must base its spot on your team on its regular form's typing. What this means is that you can use Mega-Gyarados on a Mono-Flying team, but you may not use it on a Mono-Dark team. Similarly, Mega Aggron can be used on either Mono-Steel or Mono-Rock teams despite losing its Rock typing upon Mega Evolving.
Using six Pokemon of the same type can lead to some interesting team archetypes, and it challenges teambuilders to make sure the common weaknesses a certain type of Pokemon share are covered as best as possible. Still, have fun while teambuilding! This metagame allows for all kinds of Pokemon to be viable against top threats, so be imaginative. Sticking six strong Fighting-types probably won't work well against a Mono-Flying team, and using six bulky Ghost-types isn't going to be very effective against a Mono-Dark team. Effective teams in this metagame usually strike some kind of balance between power and bulk. You can't always get by with brute force!


Monotype has its own tiering, which is based on the tiering philosophy at the end of this post.
You may find the current banlist in the Monotype entry on the Smogdex.
This thread is meant for discussion; if you feel anything not on these banlists is too overpowered for the meta, this is the place to discuss it. You can find the Monotype Tiering Philosophy below. If you want to post about anything being banned, post some evidence and reasoning why you think said Pokemon is broken. Just saying something like, "I think Kyurem-Black should be banned because it has base 170 Attack." is a post that will end up getting deleted, and it won't get you taken seriously. Back up your claim with Showdown replays showing how this Pokemon is overpowered in practice. Tell us how it interacts against other types/playstyles, what checks and counters it, its role on the team type(s) where it's played (going back to the Kyurem-Black example, how does it play on Mono-Ice vs. Mono-Dragon?), and so on. If you're requesting a complex ban, make sure that there's no better ways to handle the problem first. If you need any advice or have any questions on things you think are broken but are unsure what the best way to post is, contact a member of the Monotype Council either through message or on Showdown in the Monotype room.


Monotype Tiering Philosophy

1. Keep the banlist simple.
No complex (i.e. Type-Only) bans.
This keeps us inline with Smogon’s philosophy. Being in line with Smogon's philosophies lets us continue to develop Monotype through Smogon.


2. Ban elements of the metagame that are broken, uncompetitive, or unhealthy.
Examples: Altarianite, Slowbronite, Greninja, Metagrossite, Mawilite, Talonflame, Aegislash.
We will use OU's definitions of broken, uncompetitive, and unhealthy. In addition to those, we will also discuss suspects through the framework of "Does it add to or subract from the metagame?". For examples, see below. This leaves each person open to rationalize their suspect votes within a set framework.

Suspect voters are expected to view and discuss the metagame from the perspective of multiple types, not just a single type. Included in this is the mindset that some matchups are going to be skewed and some types are going to be bad because of the inherent game mechanics such as: the type chart, priority move distribution/weakness, stat distribution among types, number of viable 'mons, and so on.

3. No single type should be overly powerful.

Examples: Damp Rock (Drizzle+Swift Swim) , Smooth Rock (Sand Stream + Sand Rush), CharX (Flying Core), Genesect (Steel Teams)
If a type becomes too powerful we will ban an element that nerfs the type and minimizes collateral damage from other types. This rule will be applied within the limitations of rule #1 (no complex bans). Just because a type has the most usage does not mean it is overly powerful.

Example for "Does it add to, or subtract from the metagame?".
Scizor destroys Ice, Rock, and Fairy. However, were it banned, Ice would still be as bad as it currently is, as would Rock. Scizor is great at exploiting the weaknesses of those teams (poor defensive typings, weak to common priority). Fairy struggles because it lacks Steel resistances that are able to hit Scizor for significant damage. These are flaws of those teams, not Scizor. Other types/'mons exploit these same weaknesses when facing Ice, Rock and Fairy. Additionally, the 15 other types have reliable methods to check Scizor.
Overall, it isn't that Scizor is too strong for the metagame (broken) or undesirable to the point it inhibits skillful play (unhealthy); instead, 3 types are ill-equipped to handle Scizor in addition to many other aspects of the metagame. By banning it we would lose more than we gain.

In comparison, let's look at Talonflame. Talonflame destroyed Grass, Bug, and Fighting. While Grass doesn't hit particularly high usage, it was commonly asserted that neither Bug nor Fighting would do well before Talonflame was banned. After removing this threat, two whole types became viable, as well as easing the pressure on a struggling type.

Talonflame beat these types by exploiting their weakness to Flying-type attacks (like Scizor's Bullet Punch and Ice/Rock/Fairy). However, it did this to most types because it had a small pool of Pokemon (even by OU standards) that reliably checked/countered it. In Monotype, this was exacerbated. Spamming priority Brave Bird was a reliable strategy to beat most teams that didn't naturally resist it (Electric, Rock, Steel). By banning it we eased pressure on team-building for 15 types and promoted the usage of 2-3 types, which created a more diverse metagame. We gained far more than we lost.


Posting Guidelines
added 01/23/2016
Now that we have a more stable metagame this thread isn't seeing the activity it used to, which is really a shame.

There are certainly plenty of things to discuss in the ORAS metagame. Topics do not have to be limited to potentially broken Pokemon! We want to field discussion on:

  • how to deal with/play certain type matchups
  • how to break common cores
  • non-broken, yet diverse Pokemon
  • metagame trends
  • underrated threats
  • and more!
Seeing as this is way too much to discuss all at once, the council members are going to start setting a topic in the thread. We'll plan to keep topics for ~1-2 weeks or until discussion dies. We ask that you guys please stay on topic!

Also, this is a community thread, so we want your suggestions for topics! Just send them to the council in a PM on Smogon.

As a final thought, before you post, think about what you're saying and whether it adds anything to the conversation or sparks discussion. If not, add to it until it does. The previous Monotype thread was plagued with one-liners and uninformed posts. Let's make an effort this time around to have fun while keeping a certain level of mature conversation.

Special note: This thread is for metagame discussion, not tiering philosophy discussion. If you would like to propose a policy change then please start a private message with the members of the Monotype council. If the council would like to field general discussion on the tiering philosophy then it will make a post requesting input from the community.
 
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Mega-Altaria as a suspect has been talked about. Does anyone think it could actually happen? I personally think a Mega-Altaria suspect will come upon us eventually, but I'm not sure where I would stand on a ban or no ban. I don't use/face it much but apparently it gives Dark teams a really difficult time, especially if it's running Cotton Guard.
 
Mega-Altaria is not even commonly used on Flying, as it has 12.71 percent usage, which is very low, if it sat at 25% usage I would see a problem. Thus, it should not really be an issue on Flying teams, and we should focus on Dragon.

On Dragon it is used 78% of the time and 99% of the time it holds its Megastone, so it is going to Mega-Evolve if you see it. I use a type which is not very good against Dragon teams, but I find no problem with Mega-Altaria. Let's see what types Dragon beat with at least 70% win rate, as well, not everyone runs Mega Alt, nor is everyone good at abusing it. So, Electric, Fire, and nothing else is above 70%. Um, how does this comply with this "The Pokemon creates an auto-win condition against many types". I know, I am not the decider of fate, but seriously is 70% much too ask for in an auto-win situation? Dark is like 60% chance by the way.

I just find that people are using Flying way too much in this argument because really it is seldom used.
 
Mega Altaria could definitely be discussed for a ban under the condition of number (1) in the original post: auto-win condition vs. at least 3 types. Off the top of my head, Fighting, Dark, and Dragon (I don't know if this counts because Dragon also has access to the mon) all almost auto-lose to the DD set unless it's misplayed, and Fire also has a difficult time, especially with the defensive variations. Several other teams struggle because of the wide movepool that it has and the possibility for custom sets as well; Mega Altaria could be run as a great support mon as a bulky heal bell-er, or it could just run DD and sweep. It doesn't add much to the immunities of Dragon but it does add an Electric resist to Flying teams, so that's something.

Overall, I feel like it definitely deserves a discussion but is not broken enough to ban on Dragon due to Dragon's lack of defensive support for it, and Flying has more pressing concerns imo (Charizard X, pls) so hold off on taking action for now.

EDIT: Trying to clear up what's been said as "auto-win condition" because it seems RZL and I took it different ways...does it mean the pokemon makes it so that the type automatically wins against the other types? Or does it mean that this pokemon is always the win condition in these matchups?
 
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, FINALLY A COUNCIL!



Anyway, this looks great! All the people on the council are very well deserving and congratz to em! Tbt I'm just happy right bout now. I can remember talking bout us possibly having one as far back as Gen 5, but its just a happy time :D
Ight well there's that outburst of joy out of the way. Can't wait to see how we are gonna do suspect tests and the like.


EDIT: Huh, just noticed the banner is of water...always my bane.
 
Mega-Altaria is not even commonly used on Flying, as it has 12.71 percent usage, which is very low, if it sat at 25% usage I would see a problem. Thus, it should not really be an issue on Flying teams, and we should focus on Dragon.

On Dragon it is used 78% of the time and 99% of the time it holds its Megastone, so it is going to Mega-Evolve if you see it. I use a type which is not very good against Dragon teams, but I find no problem with Mega-Altaria. Let's see what types Dragon beat with at least 70% win rate, as well, not everyone runs Mega Alt, nor is everyone good at abusing it. So, Electric, Fire, and nothing else is above 70%. Um, how does this comply with this "The Pokemon creates an auto-win condition against many types". I know, I am not the decider of fate, but seriously is 70% much too ask for in an auto-win situation? Dark is like 60% chance by the way.

I just find that people are using Flying way too much in this argument because really it is seldom used.
I never mentioned Flying :x

Fighting and Dark have an extremely difficult time with Mega-Altaria, especially if it can manage to get up a few Dragon Dances. You can even run Heal Bell to get rid of burns. It gets access to Roost, Earthquake, Fire Blast, and even Hyper Voice if you wanted to go Specially Offensive. It's not as common on Flying teams because Mega Charizard X is often filling the mega slot, but on Dragons you will find it on almost every team.
 
runbabyrun The thing is, Mega Altaria can never run all of those moves, so depending on the set it's running you'll probably have an answer to it. It generally gets 4MSS and so is walled by certain checks on most teams (ex: no Fire Blast, walled by Ferrothorn; running Fire Blast but no EQ, walled by Heatran).

HOWEVER, there can be a problem when figuring out what set it is. By the time you figure out what it's exactly running your answers to it or some of its teammates could have taken too much damage to be useful anymore. This is what makes it potentially broken, in my opinion, but as I said before I feel like it's fine on Dragon and Charizard X deserves more attention on Flying.
 
That's true. But with support it is a deadly thing. Return / Earthquake / Fire Blast / DD grants almost perfect coverage. Yes, you miss out on Heal Bell, Roost, etc, but as you said it is very difficult to find out what set it is running.
 
I think we should be discussion the more prevalent matter, Mega Charizard X, specifically on Flying. It blows through, Ice, Grass, Psychic (that lack T-Wave Slowbro), and many other types -I just wanted to name three-. It just blows through a couple more types with Dragon Dance, not to mention, its support set is nearly as good as Mega Altaria's. We can all say Mega Altaria is deadly, but Mega Charizard X is more common, and hits a type more if I remember correctly, from a post in the previous thread.

"Let me break down what Char-X does to the types, and what those types can do back: ( IMO :/ )

- I apologize beforehand for messing up the order between what ZardX can do and what the Type can do back, I am just too goddamn lazy to fix it :s

Fighting
If the Zard X user finds ANYTHING to set up on, theyre very lucky imo :/ +1 Zard does sweep everything but like FSash Breloom /CScarf Terrakion
The only scenario i can think of is , setting up on a switch out, because the opponent might think they need that certain mon, other than that? nothing, IMO.

Keldeo? No lol ~~~ Terrakion? LOL? ~~~ Cobalion? Twave yo mum ~~~ Hawlucha? Pray its not Unburden ~~~ Conkeldurr? EQ + Drain + Mach.. Im not gonna go on, I have like 17 more types .-.
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What Fighting does to CharX ?
TWave Cobalion,,FSash Spore/Rock Tomb/Mach Punch Breloom,,Scarf/Specs/LO/SubCM Keldeo,,Scarf/Band Terrakion,,EQ/Drain Punch/Mach Punch Conkeldurr - ETC.
Very hard for the ZardX user to Setup against, and hence, not do as much as fat ElectricApples said:

Electric
Zard X does usually sweep Electric teams, by its own even.
It can sweep, without setting up even, just by spamming DClaw/FBlitz. If it does set up though, Electric usually does not have a chance, unless it gets to somehow Paralyze w/ like Sturdy Magnezone or Thundurus-I , or live a hit with Zapdos and Toxicate it.
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Well, I agree, this is extremely a tough Pokemon for Electric to get rid of, but Electric can do what's it's best at, Paralyze it to death.
Get a para on it, probs with Magnezone/Thundurus-I and hope for hax.
What happens next is up to the Elecric user. Best way would probably go to Ampharos , mega, and STAB Dragon Pulse does the job.

Fire
In this case, it depends on the Fire user's team.
If the fire user runs Heatran/Arcanine/Entei/Infernape/RotomH/Infernape or even Zard X themselves , then the Zard X (Flying) user will most likely, have a problem setting up, or even sweeping.
DClaw/EQ/DDance - that combination of moves, does usually solo Fire.
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Then again, if the Fire user has any of the above mons, or some others which I obviously forgot to mention, then it is, a lot more than just stoppable.
Sash / LO / Band Infernape - CCombat/EQ/Taunt Infernape does a number to CharX, so does Intimidate Arcanine w/ Espeed, Balloon EPower Heatran, Espeed/Stone Edge/Bulldoze Entei, ETC.
Water
Water is also very problematic for ZardX. It cannot setup on anything, gets Walled/TWaved/Toxicated by Slowbro, but might aswell pull off a kill or two with its awesome power.
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The only thing it could setup on would probably be Empoleon, which also hits hard w/ Surf/Scald/HPump.
Grass
Here too, much like against Electric, ZardX usually pulls off a solo sweep, with, or without Dragon Dance. STAB Tough Claws boosted Flare Blitz OHKO's almost everything in its way, and it usually gets to setup early.
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But, it could also go this way: Wearing it down w/ Mega Venu, or TWaving it w/ Ferrothorn and making it lose shit tons of HP, or putting it to sleep and then completely destroying it W/ Sash Spore/Rock Tomb/Mach Punch Breloom/ hit it with a STAB Rock move with Cradily or like Dragon Pulse with Serperior.
As you can see, ElectricApples , Grass DOES have checks to CharX, so pls dont :;

Bug
Bug can pretty easily take ZardX down. IMO That is.
We have Ice Beam Sect, that gets a SpA boost on its send-in, We have Scarf MoxieCross that can take it down With EQ/Stone Edge, We have Mega Pinsir that almost OHKOs it with Return, We also have Shuckle to encore its DDance, we have Armaldo to tank a hit and OHKO back with Stone Edge, Even Sash Thunder Galvantula, does quite alot, and may get a Para!
So Im not exactly sure what are you talking about, ElectricApples :/
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Now now, ElectricApples , I do agree ZardX does a number to Bug.
It has awesome Potential, setting up one Dance, and probably sweep everything!
Then again, it can only set up on Forretress/Scizor , as fat Arifeen said .

Poison
Zard X can, not easily, Set up on a Pokemon like Scolipede( Complete Baton Pass Set = No Attax ) , Weezing ( And then get ripped by Haze ) , predict a switch out.. Aaand thats about it.
You dont have to setup to win against Poison, considering its not that hard.
You cant get WoW'd by Weezing, and you get to outspeed everything but Crobat Scolipede and Gengar.
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What leverage does Poison has over Zard X?
Nidoking,,Nidoqueen,,EQ/RockSlide Drapion,,Sucker Punch/Taunt Skuntank,,Mega Venu with EQ/Leech Seed/STAB Sludge Bomb does a surprising 50% which forces a roost. and a shitton more.
Not entirely a problem, tolerable, and doesnt cause too much damage to the team.

Fairy
Azumaril? Twave Reflect Klefki? Scarf or Mega Fairy STAB Gardevoir? Scarf/Twave Air Slash Togekiss spam? Counter or even Unaware Clefable? Mega fucking Diancie?
You cant tell me you can setup on any of these, MAYBE besides Clefable.
You literally lose a STAB move (Dragon)
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While you cant use Dragon Claw/Outrage, you can still Spam FBlitz & Roost and do a number, only things that are actually stopping you are Azumarill and Diancie.

Dark
Megas: Sharpedo/Tyranitar to literally destroy it.
- Mega Absol maybe with Sucker Punch?
- And Im only mentioning Mega Sableye to remind you to ban that shit :(
Crawdaunt too does a number on it, Mandibuzz also kind of walls it, not letting it dance considering it almost always runs Foul Play, Bisharp w/ SuckerPunch, ETC.
Or a standart Sableye w/ Taunt & Foul Play to wear it down.
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The Zard X user could try Setting up on Mega Sableye, or a standart one ( Ambitious af hoping it runs like Confide or some shit over Foul play )
Other than that, it does a decent job jst DClawing/Flare Bombing everything.

Ghost
Aegislash could PROBABLY take a FBlitz and OHKO back after WP boost with Shadow Ball, and if it doesnt, KO the next turn with SSneak.
Scarf Chandelure does like 65% to ZardX with SBall, live a hit of DClaw, and KO back with another Shadow Ball.
Iron Defense Jellicent also , kind of, walls it, and is able to spam shadow balls & recovers and tear it down.
Mega Banette with TWave/DBond XD
Mega Sableye cant do crap, unless Zard X is sent in later in the game when it has 84123017 boosts and it can do a ton of damage with Dark Pulse :P
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I agree the above are NOT very reliable, and so stating this:
Zard X does usually single handedly sweeps Ghost teams :/

Steel
Screens / TWave / Foul Play - Klefki,,,,ABalloon EPower/AncientPower Heatran,,,,ScarfDrill,,,,Empoleon,,,,Sturdy Twave Magnezone,,,,Scarf EQ Gross (Which I started seeing a lot lately. )
Steel DOES have its ways to take down ZardX.
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While saying that I cant ignore the fact a lot of people run Blitz/EQ combo along w/ Roost&DDance.
That Combo, after a single Dance, could sweep steel. (Except for Heatran cause Flash FireA Balloon)

Normal
Toxic/Twave Chansey,,,the recently common Foul Play/Twave Porygon2,,,Band/Scarf Diggersby,,,Sash Spore Smeargle,,,Starapor,,,Mega Lopunny/Pidgeot,,,and literally fucking Ditto.
Normal has its own annoying shit
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Then again, if it gets to setup on Chansey ( only if it runs something like: StealthRock/Recovery/Heal Bell/Seismic Toss ), it could change the game entirely, even after one DDance.

Dragon
Scarf Dragon, Scarf Another Dragon, Scarf this Dragon, Scarf that Dragon.. Glare/DTail Druddigon, Slow it down with Goodra... MALARIA, which KIND OF forces Zard X to gtfo.
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If you get to setup a dance, that would be ONLY on a switchout, and that too, will only happen if youre in a situation of Zard X VS Non Scarf & Below 100 Speed Dragon.

Ice
Avalugg can take a hit and payback with Avalanche/Earthquake, which usually forces them to roost, but your (The Ice user) Earthquake does more than their roost, so they either switch out and you get to do something other than spam EQ (Yay),,, they either kill you , with very low hp, which is where your Scarfer/Base 100+ Comes in and take it down, or they just die to EQ Spam. Or Roar perhaps?
SSmash Closyer - gg
Mamoswine's Thick fat lets it take a hit and OHKO w/ EQ.
ETC.
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Surprisingly, Zard X does not have a safe setup, MAYBE except avalugg if youre willing to risk your best Anti-Ice Pokemon.
When it does, somehow, probably on a switch, it does sweep Ice.. Avalugg does do a number on it. KEEP THAT IN MIND.

Rock
Tyranitar/Aerodactyl/Diancie- Mega's or not, RIP Zard X- Going on is useless.
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Not being able to DDance about 95% of the time, still does a decent job w/ EQ and DClaw.

Ground
Smooth Rock Meanie, Sand Rush Meanie, Thick Fat Meanie, Suspected Flying Meanie, Water Meanie , Mega Dragon Meanie. #Yeah!!!
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Impossible to DDance on, unless the Ground user has technical issues with their mouse and are unable to click EQ. Does do a decent damage on Gastro/Mamo but that's about it.

Psychic
Pre DDance: Latios/Latias , Toxic/TWave SlowbroDBond CScarf Gardevoir? Mega Hyper Voice/Taunt Gardevoir? Specs Meloetta?
Post DDance: Slowbro ._.
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ZardX is hard to get rid off for Psychic, Especially because Mew can't WoW, much like Poison, only Psychic doesn't have as much checks to it.

Flying
CharX
---------- FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!
CharX

In all seriousness, they break each other's Sandibuzzes and Skarmories, and end up being a speed tie or ends up with one of the 2 users feeling bad for running a bulky set, since its outsped by the opposing, and dies.

TL;DR
The above tells you about BOTH points of view of : A Type vs Zard X(Flying).

Zard X might be a win condition against some types, but NEVER by its own.
The opponent mustn't let the ZardX user set up.
If that's inevitable, Possibly against (Electric/Fire/Ghost) , then Zard X should be looked into more seriously.

If it ends up getting banned, keep in mind Flying loses Another incredibly reliable Sweeper, and lately, a Defogger.

So if it does get banned, I plead you to consider bringing Zapdos back." - Septicus
 

Acast

Ghost of a Forum Mod & PS Room Owner
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Driver Alumnus
I'd like to bring up a post I made in the previous thread:
Usage oftentimes is an indicator that a pokemon is good, but it's never a reliable way of showing exactly how good a pokemon is. Think about Baton Pass. It's a strategy that's really not common at all. You rarely see it, yet OU had to introduce a new clause just to keep it from being too uncompetitive.
Please avoid relying on usage to "prove" whether something is broken or not. Usage is not a direct correlation to being OP. If it worked that way, we should be more concerned about Azumarill on Water teams than Mega Altaria. (Azumarill is #1 in Water type usage iirc)
 
Good job for setting up the council! I hope this will make things go alot more smoothly.
For now I want to talk about Gravity Landorus and Sand Rush Excadrill, as I think it's completely broken.
How does it work: Landorus uses the many switches it's able to cause because of it's powerful moves and 101 base speed to setup Gravity removing all ground immunities for 5 turns allowing itself and its teammates (Particularly Excadrill) to spam Ground type moves as nothing will be immune of it.
Affected types:
This combination destroys Poison, Steel, Electric. Also Rock to some extent as well.
Poison already has no switchins to Landorus' Earth Power + Psychic coverage (aside from balloon Drapion/Skuntank which works only once), giving it plenty of opportunity setup Gravity. Landorus can be dealt with by scarf Nidoking Ice Beam, Gengar and Scolipede and whitout Gravity, Excadrill cannot lock it self mindlessly into Earthquake. With Gravity however, Choice band excadrill can proceed to outspeed every pokemon on poison type (bar scarf crobat lol) and OHKO everything and those who get 2HKO'd can not KO it back. Even Mega-Venusaur isn't safe.
252+ Atk Choice Band Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 172-204 (47.2 - 56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
The only way to stop and Excadrill sweep is with a sashed poke, but ground has Hippowdon to setup Stealth Rock reliably and can do this multiple times due to its great bulk.
Steel, like Poison has no switch-ins for Earth Power + Focus Blast Landorus aside from specially defensive Bronzong which can switch in only once as it has no reliable recovery. Also it can't do much back. Individually Landorus isn't broken as it can be revenged/forced out by Scarf Magnezone/Jirachi or even Durant, while Excadrill gets walled by Skarmory. But with Gravity up every Steel type gets at least 2HKO'd by Excadrill. Priority attacks are often not strong enough to tear it down:
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 273-321 (75.6 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Empoleon Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 116-138 (32.1 - 38.2%) -- 92.8% chance to 3HKO
(Sure, the 2 together can beat it, but this forces the player to run both these pokes and preserve them. Aqua jet Empoleon is pretty bad otherwise and Sucker Punch can be taken advantage of.
Sturdy + Counter Skarmory/Registeel can work but, again, Stealth Rock is a thing.
Electric can outspeed Landorus easily with Thundurus or Mega Manectric and dent it with HP Ice. Zapdos and Rotom-Wash can also take a hit and hit it back. Excadrill gets walled by Rotom. With Gravity however, everything just dies to Sand Rush Excadrill except Sturdy Magnezone (if it isn't broken yet) and even then:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 306-362 (84.7 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Rock falls to Landorus' covergae like Steel does but still has Terrakion, Mega-Diancie, Mega-Aerodactyl and Scarf Aurorus to outspeed and kill it. Excadrill is very threatening already for its ability to spam Iron Head + Earthquake against the type, But Mega-Aggron can take a hit and so does Rhyperior. They both OHKO back as well. It is however hard for the type to keep the latter 2 healthy when the entire opposing team likes to shake the ground. Gravity does not have as crucial of an influence here, but it does negate the Rock user from playing mindgames with Aerodactyl or air balloon users, which does push the matchup a bit too much in the ground user's favor.
Why I believe it's broken:
3 types are completely destroyed by the combo while a fourth type suffers heavily from it as well. Both of these pokes are immune to Thunder Wave as well, preventing the from being slowed down by it and other paralysis inducing moves are rare. They 4x resist and are neutral to Stealth Rock respectively while Landorus is also immune to Spikes and both are Immune to Toxic Spikes. In essence point 1 and 4 of the the tiering philosophy are applied together here as it is a deadly core that creates an auto-win condition against at least 3 types. Also consider the fact that only 1 moveslot on 1 already massive threat to these types has to be dedicated to do this (and running Excadrill, but it's pretty much on every Ground team). According to the latest usage stats, Landorus is on 80% of the ground teams and 50% of those carry Gravity. This means that the Poison/Steel/Electric/(Rock) user has a 40% chance to basically lose against Ground based on movesets alone. When you consider these matchups are already very much in the ground user's favor this makes the match-up skewed to broken proprotions. (Win rates: Vs Poison: 69,8% ; Vs Steel 66,8% ; Vs Electric 71,2% ; Vs Rock 75,3)
I suggest solving the problem this way:
Ban Gravity + Sand Rush or a clause that prevents the Ground player from having both Excadrill and Landorus on the same team.
The only other 2 pokes on Ground with Gravity are Golurk and Claydol which are in no way as threatening as Landorus.
Note: I don't have too much experience using this combo myself or fighting against it with Steel or Electric, so I would like to hear from players with experience at this to get more reliable input. Replays would be nice as well.

Tldr: Gravity + Sand Rush Excadrill destroys at least 3 types. According to the tiering philosophy this is broken. Ban being able to abuse this combo.
 

Entei

fly
is a Tiering Contributor
That's true. But with support it is a deadly thing. Return / Earthquake / Fire Blast / DD grants almost perfect coverage. Yes, you miss out on Heal Bell, Roost, etc, but as you said it is very difficult to find out what set it is running.
I dont think anything that is going to be your set-up sweeper can last long without a recovery.

Running EQ+Fire Blast would probably be a thing on Dragon for people who really struggle against Steel.
Return + EQ, Is for the amazing stab + Steel coverage.
Fire blast + Return..? Hyper Voice + Fire Blast is a good, well known special set that allows u to run roost + heal bell/cotton guard.


The reason (IMO) that M-Alt isnt as used on Fly as in dragon is because otherwise Flying has completely no Fire moves on it ( skarm? togekiss? mandibuzz? lando? thundy? aerodactyl? everything else that is viable? )
On Dragon we have like Fire Blast Garchomp, Fire Blast Goodra, Fire Punch Druddigon, Fire Blast Hydreigon, ETC ( sadly no Dragon/Fire , and ChariXard isnt allowed so )
 
I dont think anything that is going to be your set-up sweeper can last long without a recovery.
I know, I was just saying that grants it almost perfect coverage. On Dragon teams, Fire Blast can easily be slashed over with Roost, because, as you said, a bunch of Dragons get fire coverage for Steel types.
 

Acast

Ghost of a Forum Mod & PS Room Owner
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Driver Alumnus
Good job for setting up the council! I hope this will make things go alot more smoothly.
For now I want to talk about Gravity Landorus and Sand Rush Excadrill, as I think it's completely broken.
How does it work: Landorus uses the many switches it's able to cause because of it's powerful moves and 101 base speed to setup Gravity removing all ground immunities for 5 turns allowing itself and its teammates (Particularly Excadrill) to spam Ground type moves as nothing will be immune of it.
Affected types:
This combination destroys Poison, Steel, Electric. Also Rock to some extent as well.
Poison already has no switchins to Landorus' Earth Power + Psychic coverage (aside from balloon Drapion/Skuntank which works only once), giving it plenty of opportunity setup Gravity. Landorus can be dealt with by scarf Nidoking Ice Beam, Gengar and Scolipede and whitout Gravity, Excadrill cannot lock it self mindlessly into Earthquake. With Gravity however, Choice band excadrill can proceed to outspeed every pokemon on poison type (bar scarf crobat lol) and OHKO everything and those who get 2HKO'd can not KO it back. Even Mega-Venusaur isn't safe.
252+ Atk Choice Band Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 172-204 (47.2 - 56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
The only way to stop and Excadrill sweep is with a sashed poke, but ground has Hippowdon to setup Stealth Rock reliably and can do this multiple times due to its great bulk.
Steel, like Poison has no switch-ins for Earth Power + Focus Blast Landorus aside from specially defensive Bronzong which can switch in only once as it has no reliable recovery. Also it can't do much back. Individually Landorus isn't broken as it can be revenged/forced out by Scarf Magnezone/Jirachi or even Durant, while Excadrill gets walled by Skarmory. But with Gravity up every Steel type gets at least 2HKO'd by Excadrill. Priority attacks are often not strong enough to tear it down:
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 273-321 (75.6 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Empoleon Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 116-138 (32.1 - 38.2%) -- 92.8% chance to 3HKO
(Sure, the 2 together can beat it, but this forces the player to run both these pokes and preserve them. Aqua jet Empoleon is pretty bad otherwise and Sucker Punch can be taken advantage of.
Sturdy + Counter Skarmory/Registeel can work but, again, Stealth Rock is a thing.
Electric can outspeed Landorus easily with Thundurus or Mega Manectric and dent it with HP Ice. Zapdos and Rotom-Wash can also take a hit and hit it back. Excadrill gets walled by Rotom. With Gravity however, everything just dies to Sand Rush Excadrill except Sturdy Magnezone (if it isn't broken yet) and even then:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 306-362 (84.7 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Rock falls to Landorus' covergae like Steel does but still has Terrakion, Mega-Diancie, Mega-Aerodactyl and Scarf Aurorus to outspeed and kill it. Excadrill is very threatening already for its ability to spam Iron Head + Earthquake against the type, But Mega-Aggron can take a hit and so does Rhyperior. They both OHKO back as well. It is however hard for the type to keep the latter 2 healthy when the entire opposing team likes to shake the ground. Gravity does not have as crucial of an influence here, but it does negate the Rock user from playing mindgames with Aerodactyl or air balloon users, which does push the matchup a bit too much in the ground user's favor.
Why I believe it's broken:
3 types are completely destroyed by the combo while a fourth type suffers heavily from it as well. Both of these pokes are immune to Thunder Wave as well, preventing the from being slowed down by it and other paralysis inducing moves are rare. They 4x resist and are neutral to Stealth Rock respectively while Landorus is also immune to Spikes and both are Immune to Toxic Spikes. In essence point 1 and 4 of the the tiering philosophy are applied together here as it is a deadly core that creates an auto-win condition against at least 3 types. Also consider the fact that only 1 moveslot on 1 already massive threat to these types has to be dedicated to do this (and running Excadrill, but it's pretty much on every Ground team). According to the latest usage stats, Landorus is on 80% of the ground teams and 50% of those carry Gravity. This means that the Poison/Steel/Electric/(Rock) user has a 40% chance to basically lose against Ground based on movesets alone. When you consider these matchups are already very much in the ground user's favor this makes the match-up skewed to broken proprotions. (Win rates: Vs Poison: 69,8% ; Vs Steel 66,8% ; Vs Electric 71,2% ; Vs Rock 75,3)
I suggest solving the problem this way:
Ban Gravity + Sand Rush or a clause that prevents the Ground player from having both Excadrill and Landorus on the same team.
The only other 2 pokes on Ground with Gravity are Golurk and Claydol which are in no way as threatening as Landorus.
Note: I don't have too much experience using this combo myself or fighting against it with Steel or Electric, so I would like to hear from players with experience at this to get more reliable input. Replays would be nice as well.

Tldr: Gravity + Sand Rush Excadrill destroys at least 3 types. According to the tiering philosophy this is broken. Ban being able to abuse this combo.
I mostly use steel lately and I can confidently say that I would rather face Keldeo than a Banded Sand Rush Excadrill with Gravity support. There are no switch ins, and the only reliable check I can think of is Ferrothorn, which gets destroyed by Landorus-I anyway and can't do much to Excadrill except stall out the sand with Protect and Leech Seed.

The problem is that Sand Rush, Gravity, and Smooth Rock are not broken on their own. Smogon in general hates complex bans, but I'm starting to think that a Gravity + Smooth Rock complex ban might be the best way to deal with this, although I would like to know what others think of that, especially the new council.
 

Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
is a Tiering Contributor
hihi

My opinions on Smooth Rock in general is that the best place to start would be a ban on the item on Ground teams, to see if that does anything to alleviate the issue a lot of people find in that it's simply overwhelming constantly having to dance around an Excadrill for 8 turns. It also becomes kinda mindless for the Ground user as they can often keep a weakened Hippo in the back, wear down the opposing team to the point where Exca can sweep(not hard when you consider Ground's offensive mons and the general onslaught they cause) and then throw their Hippo in front of an attack and go from there. There's a couple of reasons I wouldn't quite be comfortable with a Gravity+Smooth Rock ban. Firstly of course the complexity which I believe is unnecessary, because I quite honestly can't see Gravity strategies proving successful without Smooth Rock considering the turn to get Hippo in and then the turn to set Gravity and then to get Exca in burning up a lot of your sand turns. Then there's the fact that I do actually believe Smooth Rock is broken by itself; 3 extra turns of double Speed Exca, extra powerful Megachomp, chip damage(I think a lot of people underestimate this) and it's not hard to see that it's definitely having a massive influence. If the ban does go through, and Ground is still found to be broken, then we can look at Gravity or maybe even Excadrill or Landorus themselves.

re chip damage: 252+ Atk Choice Band Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 303-357 (93.8 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

It gives stuff like this the push into guaranteed KO range, as well as making it much harder for checks such as Mega Venusaur to reliably handle.

On Altaria vs Zard X, I have to say I was one of the biggest proponents of an Altaria suspect / ban, but recently after reading other people's opinions and thinking on it some more, I'm not so sure. The thing for me is that I believe that while Altaria is more potentially broken as a pokemon in it's own right, Zard offers a great contribution to Flying teams via it's absolutely fantastic typing from a defensive standpoint albeit being easier to handle from a threat control point of view. I think a lot of this discussion comes down to the debate of is Flying a broken type atm or is Altaria simply a broken threat? Would love to see some more discussion on the because I'm still making up my mind!

EDIT: Trying to clear up what's been said as "auto-win condition" because it seems RZL and I took it different ways...does it mean the pokemon makes it so that the type automatically wins against the other types? Or does it mean that this pokemon is always the win condition in these matchups?
I take it as meaning something that needs very little invitation to win a game, for example Altaria could be considered an auto-win condition vs Dark as it all it needs is either a Cotton Guard and a DD boost, or Weavile eliminated to just win vs Dark.
 
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Wanka

a suh
is a Community Leaderis a Tiering Contributor
Monotype Leader
I think if there is going to be a discussion about mega alt, it should be more focused on its mono attacking sweeping sets. The mono attacking sweeper sets being cotton guard/roost/DD/Return and DD/heal bell/roost/return. All the talk about fire blast and EQ being good for altaria is fine, I get it, but like omnijew said....Dragon has the coverage with other mons. Garchomp and dragonite both have access to the fire and ground coverage which lets altaria use its other support moves to make it a deadly sweeper that is insanely difficult to kill.

The Cotton guard set gives offensive builds who lack status the yip yop and DD heal bell gives balance and stall types a massive headache bar like ditto. I don't really have much room to elaborate because I generally don't use flying or dragon, but from battles I've watched during lvls and ladder, The mono attacking sets are the most threatening and should be generally focused on more if there is any ban discussion about altaria.

Sadly I also have noticed the lack of correct use of altaria. The amount of moonblast altarias I've seen on the ladder are extremely upsetting and people pick the dumbest opportunities to try and set up. If a bigger majority actually learned how to use the mon to its best ability this discussion would not be as complicated as some people are making it.
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
is a Pre-Contributor
I don't think the usage of altaria is entirely important when considering whether it's broken, see baton pass. Moreover, while people are correct in saying that Altaria can't run three sets at once this is missing the point, as the multiple sets mean that it's far harder to counter, as you might predict a physical set and bring in a check to that set only to be KO'd by a fire blast. It also means you'll often need more than one mon to beat this pokemon, and that it's far more likely for you not to have a switchin or reliable counter. This is a similar situation to OU's M-Maw ban.
Finally, to address whether M-Altaria is actually broken or not: There is more than one set that I can see (e.g. dd/return/roost/heal bell) that are incredibly hard to defeat for certain types: For example, try finding a counter to this on dark. Its ability to run a variety of sets from dd varieties (offensive, bulky, heal bell or refresh, eq or fire blast coverage, cotton guard, special) that it's pretty much impossible to beat without losing a mon or two just to work out the set. This to me seems easily broken enough to deserve a ban; it is overpowering against a number of types in a manner similar to Talonflame.
I would also like to point out a number of other similarities to Talonflame: Firstly, Talon wasn't always used on Flying teams, and secondly, its abilities aren't of great help to Flying which can already threaten dark and fighting easily enough while Zard X and mega gyara are still huge threats to Dragon.

tl;dr ban altaria

And with that I'm off for two weeks, good luck with the banning or non-banning.
 

Croven

certified genius
is a defending SPL Champion
new thread, new council, new changes o.o i like how this is going, let's keep it positive people

ok while alla you are talkin about how broken altaria is, zard x is going relatively under the radar, which really isn't a good thing. in my experience, this thing is possibly MORE broken than altaria, and definitely more helpful in all of my matches as a flying user. literally this thing is a win button; there's no other way to describe it. raw power that allows it to break past behemoths such as hippowdon with only slight weakening is pretty stupid; then you add that onto solid bulk, respectable speed (which is also boostable), incredible offense/defensive typing, and you have yourself what is quite possibly a very broken mon. i'm kinda unsure of how this went unnoticed back in xy, but let's try to realize how easy it is to win with this thing in so many matchups; it's kinda ridiculous.

monos such as electric, steel (depending on set), grass, fire, psychic, bug, water (yes, even water, i say this from personal experience), fairy, and it even nets a couple kills on fighting too. that was what, 9 monos? 4/5 of those are pretty much lose at matchup, and the other few are almost guaranteed wins thanks to the amount of pressure zard exerts on the opposing side. you people give all these situational checks and counters, such as "stay in with ur mon dont let it get a dd and rkill it ezpz", but you are never actually taking into consideration what happens in an actual match. in reality, the immense support zard has backing it in flying combined with the pressure it puts on the opponent when it gets on the field is utterly ridiculous. it gets in relatively easy due to slow uturns, volt switches, or just hard switches thanks to its great typing. when its inside, the raw power it has almost guarantees it a kill right then and there. what is electric doing but dying? steel has to pray it doesn't have eq. bug, fairy, and fighting all lose a mon right then and there (diancie and azu aren't counters, they are nearly 2hko'ed after rocks. not to mention, it isn't hard to have spike support with skarmory). the amount of counterplay it has is so limited that the flying user gets so many options (e.g. i could blitz here, do a crapload to anything and possibly take a kill, dd and weaken a wall for another mon to sweep, double switch to rack up residual to sweep later, etc.), while the opponent is forced into such a poor position that they really only have a couple logical plays, which can be easily taken advantage of.

everyone says "dont use teammates when discussing a mons brokenness", but i dont really think that applies here in monotype. when considering how broken a mon is, one has to consider how it plays in actual battles. and the only way to do that is to consider what type its on and the possible matchups and how it influences the matchups. this is easier in mono than ou considering the more omnipresent archetypes that occur due to having the mon only available on 2 types, so it should be taken advantage of. now, back to zard x. let's say its on a balanced flying team, with support such as heal bell togekiss, defensive landot, spikes skarm, and scarf thundt (aka one of the generic flyings nowadays). so zard comes in on whatever type you're using, and now you are forced to make a decision: do i stay in and let it get a potential DD, or do i switch out on the predicted attack? do i have anything to even switch out to? most of the time the answer to the last question is no (e.g. bug, grass, electric, even water/fairy if spikes are up). alright so i stay in and dont let it dd. great, while it KO'd one of your mons, you didn't let it setup, so you can bring in your revenge killer to try and get some momentum back! (e.g. scarf heracross, mega diancie, specs keldeo, whatever) however, this kind of mentality only works when playing bare offense, where mons' longevity is limited and setup opportunities are low. with flying, this isn't the case; the flying player can mindlessly switch into their counter (and trust me, they will have a counter for whatever the hell you are bringing out; it's flying! haha xD) and boom; all your momentum just went down the drain. rinse and repeat until zard is free to get up a dd and win. whenever i laddered with balanced flying, this is how games would turn out, and it was a ridiculously mindless way of winning; just as mindless or even more than smooth rock ground/baton pass.

the point i'm trying to make here is that backed by an extreme amount of support, zard x has its full potential brought out, which is too much for monotype to handle. counters to this thing are extremely, extremely limited; slowbro and hippowdon are really the only ones i can think of. too bad hippo is 2hko'ed by flare blitz after 1 spike and slowbro is utterly broken by an sd set (extremely underrated; on my HO flying i net an average of 2-3 kills per game with this set). this isn't even going into spdef sets, which for some reason people think are less threatening? (ok i got ttar as my answer to flying. zard x? rocks are up, mandi could get 2hko'ed, lemme go to tar! oops you got burned, now you can't break the flying core and get stalled out, gg) also, its pretty much impossible to determine which set it is based on preview; i literally changed a spdef zard to a standard dd zard while keeping the rest of the team the same and it did perfectly, so dont give me some bullshit about determining at preview (and lol not even mentioning the threat of zard y)

tl;dr since that was a wall of text that i wouldn't read if i were any of you: ban zard x from flying. on fire, the team support is incredibly lacking, and zard x is very limited when used on fire. on flying, however, with the support of heal bell, a solid defensive backbone, and sr + spikes, its pretty much impossible to win even if you take it down; it will have done enough work to the point where the match is essentially over (something people dont realize is that you dont have to 6-0 teams to be broken, you simply have to provide an immense amount of power/support to the point where multiple matchups are impossible to win from preview). so yea ban it from flying, not from fire

might as well toss in my thoughts on the other stuff going around lately if anyone cares (not gonna type it up because lol who's gonna read it after all of this text)
ban altaria globally (open to change about this, give good arguments tho)
ban smooth rock
and while we're at it, since flying will have been sufficiently nerfed by the hypothetical alt/zard bans:
unban zapdos from flying

thank you all for reading, have a nice day
 
zardx, altaria, and excadrill are the mons that are out when they sweep you to end the game, but a;; three of them would be nowhere without the support of teamates that could wear out their checks. I feel like this makes them leave a bad taste in your mouth when they are used against used, even if the match had a lot of back and forth and your opponet was forced to use most of their team to answer your decisicions before the sweep occured. they aren't as irreplaceable as the support mons on their teams like, the former zapdos, grachomp, and hippo.

The ,metagame is comfortable right now. and certainly more diverse. sp I think oshaping the meta can go on the backburner in favor of educating new players or just discussing how your play, as at the moment you can get depressingly good results with something as dumb as acidarmor/calm mind/ rest / ice beam manaph]hy.
 

Acast

Ghost of a Forum Mod & PS Room Owner
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Driver Alumnus
and while we're at it, since flying will have been sufficiently nerfed by the hypothetical alt/zard bans:
unban zapdos from flying
I'm going to be perfectly honest, I just skipped to the end of your post because it's late for me and I didn't feel like reading all of that at the moment, but I'll probably read it all some other time.
Anyway, I wanted to point out that even if both Altaria and Zard X are banned (unlikely, but definitely possible), Flying teams will still have an extremely viable, non-Flying type, Dragon Dancing mega in Gyarados. If these bans end up happening, Flying will still be just as good in general. There will be no big change to the current structure of a Flying team since Mega Gyarados can sub in for Char X so easily. The only difference those bans will make to the way a Flying team operates is that there (hopefully) won't be any more auto-wins based on type matchup. Char X (arguably) beats all of Electric single-handedly, and the same goes for Altaria with Dark or Fighting. Mega Gyarados doesn't beat an entire type single handedly, but it fills the same role as a very powerful and threatening Dragon Dancer and it even provides Flying with a resistance to Ice. The Zapdos ban was very effective and I would not want it unbanned even if both Char X and Altaria are banned.
 

Nani Man

__what__ does nani mean
is a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Hey everyone, after extensive discussion from the old thread to here, the monotype council has conducted a vote on Smooth Rock, with the results shown below:

Council Vote on Smooth Rock

Anttya - Type Ban on Ground
Freeroamer - Type Ban on Ground
Nani Man - Type Ban on Ground
scpinion - Type Ban on Ground
Septicus - Type Ban on Ground

Smooth Rock received a 100% in favour of quick-banning on ground monotypes, meaning Smooth Rock is now Type-Banned from Ground, and will be implemented on the ladder and other monotype events.

Keep up the discussion everyone, as the council will be deciding on what is next. Some notable pokemon to mention are Mega Altaria, Mega Charizard X, Zapdos, Mega Sableye and Landorus-I.

I shall just post my thoughts on Mega Altaria for now.

Mega Altaria (Altarianite) is a big problem in my opinion, and I want to answer some questions referring back to the old tiering philosophy I posted (seen in post #1 in this thread) with regards to Altarianite. Let's begin:

1. The Pokemon creates an auto-win condition against many types (3 is an absolute minimum). I have to say, Mega Altaria reminds me a little of Mega Gallade for this reason; 'Whoever sets up first shall win'. This was evident back when Mega Gallade was legal on Psychic. Whoever SD'd and had shadow sneak/knock off usually would win once the faster pokemon are out of the picture. This can be the case when Dragon vs Dragon is happening, and is something I really dislike to see. Fighting has a very tough time against this monster, as +1 Return is something that is extremely hard to handle. Cobalion is a good pokemon (specifically the bulky variant) and it has access to T-Wave/Volt Switch/Iron Head which are beneficial against Mega Altaria, although, Mega Altaria has access to Refresh AND Heal Bell, meaning if they've stocked up with Refresh, you won't be PP stalling them that easily. Relying on para's and flinches is not a valid argument in my opinion and I feel Fighting has very limited options. Not to mention the Cotton Guard sets as stated above in the thread by another user. Altaria can be very diverse according to the makeup of your team and is very troublesome. On to Dark, If greninja had been around then you could rely on predictions and player skill to try catch the altaria, however, all it takes is one turn to miss that chance and Altaria is free to DD. In the current meta, Greninja is banned and therefore Dark has fewer options than it normally would. You can rely on Weavile for a nice Ice STAB and priority Ice Shard but Flying has access to Skarmory which can firstly set rocks and eat up Weavile's damage, slowly wearing it down. Mega Sableye can help protect and preserve Weavile, but in most instances, it proves to not be enough due to the plethora of offensive attackers Flying has (Eg Landorus-I). For Dragon, Weavile is definitely a pain although Dragon naturally has many bulky mons that can take a Ice move from Weavile and easily OHKO it back through items such as Yache Berry or simply revenge killing it with a scarf Outrage/Draco Meteor. Druddigon bulky sets can also Glare Weavile, leaving it paralyzed. I'd say in general that Mega Altaria has a pretty close auto-win condition for Dragon, Dark and Fighting and is something we should all acknowledge.

2. The Pokemon promotes type based matchups. Yes, as outlined above.

3. The Pokemon itself is broken by either a) team support or b) natural strength. The natural strength can be overwhelming, especially because Mega Altaria can be physical AND/OR special, meaning your wall can get shut down all because of a misinterpretation. I'd say Mega Altaria's checks can be more durable and efficient, but Flying and Dragon has great teammates that can help with those said checks, meaning Mega Altaria can be preserved and used for later.

4. The Pokemon is an integral part of a core that cannot be beaten by most teams. I wouldn't say Mega Altaria forms a broken core but a good one, since Charizard X is much more beneficial for Flying monotypes defensive-wise. Dragon cores with Mega Altaria are great, though I still would not class that broken, just really good. I'd say the offensive pressure for specific matchups is more significant with Mega Altaria, and in turn strengthens the team in every aspect, but that's probably it.

As mentioned above guys, share your thoughts on any of the aforementioned pokemon as the council will be deciding on what's next.
 

Entei

fly
is a Tiering Contributor
Hey everyone, after extensive discussion from the old thread to here, the monotype council has conducted a vote on Smooth Rock, with the results shown below:

Council Vote on Smooth Rock

Anttya - Type Ban on Ground
Freeroamer - Type Ban on Ground
Nani Man - Type Ban on Ground
scpinion - Type Ban on Ground
Septicus - Type Ban on Ground

Smooth Rock received a 100% in favour of quick-banning on ground monotypes, meaning Smooth Rock is now Type-Banned from Ground, and will be implemented on the ladder and other monotype events.

Keep up the discussion everyone, as the council will be deciding on what is next. Some notable pokemon to mention are Mega Altaria, Mega Charizard X, Zapdos, Mega Sableye and Landorus-I.

I shall just post my thoughts on Mega Altaria for now.

Mega Altaria (Altarianite) is a big problem in my opinion, and I want to answer some questions referring back to the old tiering philosophy I posted (seen in post #1 in this thread) with regards to Altarianite. Let's begin:

1. The Pokemon creates an auto-win condition against many types (3 is an absolute minimum). I have to say, Mega Altaria reminds me a little of Mega Gallade for this reason; 'Whoever sets up first shall win'. This was evident back when Mega Gallade was legal on Psychic. Whoever SD'd and had shadow sneak/knock off usually would win once the faster pokemon are out of the picture. This can be the case when Dragon vs Dragon is happening, and is something I really dislike to see. Fighting has a very tough time against this monster, as +1 Return is something that is extremely hard to handle. Cobalion is a good pokemon (specifically the bulky variant) and it has access to T-Wave/Volt Switch/Iron Head which are beneficial against Mega Altaria, although, Mega Altaria has access to Refresh AND Heal Bell, meaning if they've stocked up with Refresh, you won't be PP stalling them that easily. Relying on para's and flinches is not a valid argument in my opinion and I feel Fighting has very limited options. Not to mention the Cotton Guard sets as stated above in the thread by another user. Altaria can be very diverse according to the makeup of your team and is very troublesome. On to Dark, If greninja had been around then you could rely on predictions and player skill to try catch the altaria, however, all it takes is one turn to miss that chance and Altaria is free to DD. In the current meta, Greninja is banned and therefore Dark has fewer options than it normally would. You can rely on Weavile for a nice Ice STAB and priority Ice Shard but Flying has access to Skarmory which can firstly set rocks and eat up Weavile's damage, slowly wearing it down. Mega Sableye can help protect and preserve Weavile, but in most instances, it proves to not be enough due to the plethora of offensive attackers Flying has (Eg Landorus-I). For Dragon, Weavile is definitely a pain although Dragon naturally has many bulky mons that can take a Ice move from Weavile and easily OHKO it back through items such as Yache Berry or simply revenge killing it with a scarf Outrage/Draco Meteor. Druddigon bulky sets can also Glare Weavile, leaving it paralyzed. I'd say in general that Mega Altaria has a pretty close auto-win condition for Dragon, Dark and Fighting and is something we should all acknowledge.

2. The Pokemon promotes type based matchups. Yes, as outlined above.

3. The Pokemon itself is broken by either a) team support or b) natural strength. The natural strength can be overwhelming, especially because Mega Altaria can be physical AND/OR special, meaning your wall can get shut down all because of a misinterpretation. I'd say Mega Altaria's checks can be more durable and efficient, but Flying and Dragon has great teammates that can help with those said checks, meaning Mega Altaria can be preserved and used for later.

4. The Pokemon is an integral part of a core that cannot be beaten by most teams. I wouldn't say Mega Altaria forms a broken core but a good one, since Charizard X is much more beneficial for Flying monotypes defensive-wise. Dragon cores with Mega Altaria are great, though I still would not class that broken, just really good. I'd say the offensive pressure for specific matchups is more significant with Mega Altaria, and in turn strengthens the team in every aspect, but that's probably it.

As mentioned above guys, share your thoughts on any of the aforementioned pokemon as the council will be deciding on what's next.
Electric too, most of the time, those who run Scarf Magnezone/Magneton( Yes people do use this for the higher speed stat ) might struggle a bit less though.

And also Fire ( occasionally ), Things that I could imagine stopping it would be:

Intimidate Will-o Arcanine ( but as you mentioned it can refresh/heal bell and carelessly set up, or if it doesnt have one of those(dance/hb/refresh), it could have support somewhere to back it up ) -Flying: Togekiss, -Dragon: Usually itself or none (rip).

Iron Head Entei BEFORE a dance ( +1 192+ Atk Mega Altaria Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Entei: 348-410 (93.8 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO ),
( 252+ Atk Life Orb Entei Iron Head vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 211-250 (68.7 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ) , and If it doesnt die to EQ ( Entei ) it dies to LO chip dmg ;/

Gunk Shot Infernape perhaps? ( Although its more of a Fighting kind of set ) 252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Gunk Shot vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 268-317 (87.2 - 103.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Scarf/Balloon Heatran fairs well. (4 SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 210-248 (68.4 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

So I'm counting 4 situational Checks.
Arcanine isnt really used on Fire ;/ (24.94%)
On Entei its usually Iron Head/Bulldoze, and according to the SpriteGallery ( thank you scpinion ) Iron Head 50.5% > Bulldoze 46.5% ------ Thats not a large difference. And apparently Entei's usage dropped to less than 30% O_O (28.49%)
Gunk Shot Infernape is only used 15.9% of the time on Fire teams, and really isnt the best choice on Fire teams when it only hits Fairy + Grass(a given advantage for fire already) , when it has such an amazing movepool with countless coverage moves..
Heatran is the only solid Counter(Balloon)/Check(Scarf) I can think of.

I apologize if the post is confusing or it seems like I was basically talking about an Altaria with 5 moves (ddance,roost,hb or refresh,normal->fairy stab,eq), I was trying to point out that Altaria gives Fire a very tough time, having great bulk, totally decent Attack stat, decent speed stat ( and a move that can boost BOTH of them ), a move that can cure it from any status ( well besides sleep & freeze but you know >_> ), an incredibly powerful stab, and EQ~!

It can do a great deal of damage with having just heal bell/roost/eq/return.
 
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