Resource ORAS OU Metagame Discussion

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Martin

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Just a note about Toxic Jellicent, but if you use that its probably better to run a slower spread with a mixed defensive spread. I'm not going to search through my plethora of Jelly teams to find the spread and I can't remember the physdef benchmark I used off of the top of my head, but make sure to run 44 speed to outpace Alomomola and Taunt it before it can use Toxic on you.
 

Imperator Romanum

formerly Grains of Salt
Without toxic you fail to wall Volcanion and instesd reduce yourself to the mercy of poison from sludge bomb/wave. Though I'd slash Hex with... Something. Hex is excellent for pressuring Jellicents switch ins :3
 

Martin

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Bullet Punch is still really good on medicham, it's just not mandatory on it anymore since the meta is so much slower and bulkier than it was a few months ago when offense was everywhere. Also toxic jelli means u can't burn TTar that try to pursuit you
When running Toxic>Wisp, Colbur Berry still provides utility if paired with something like Dugtrio who can trap the Pursuit user because it is able to eliminate it while Jellicent can just come in on something later and Recover back up to full to keep checking stuff. Also, something that -Magic- hasn't mentioned in his post is that a really cool set to run is Recover+Wisp+Toxic+Hex, which is able to achieve both targets in one set while still stallbreaking reasonably effectively. Just make sure its paired with another Taunt user like Talonflame or Heatran if you use this set to account for the loss of Taunt.
 
Lol as far as I'm concerned if people can't beat clef than frankly there team sucks. No 2 ways around it. Same with the other S rank mons or sableye or heatran. Just something that needs to be thought about when team building which if you don't take into account you will lose.

Besides I enjoy the salt T-wave clef induces and if anyone takes that away I'll send AM after you.
 
Lol as far as I'm concerned if people can't beat clef than frankly there team sucks. No 2 ways around it. Same with the other S rank mons or sableye or heatran. Just something that needs to be thought about when team building which if you don't take into account you will lose.

Besides I enjoy the salt T-wave clef induces and if anyone takes that away I'll send AM after you.
I think the reason people are frustrated with clef is that it just cheezes your counter to death. Steel type other than exca or zone? Hope you dont mind being next to useless against anything else this game. It's just an annoying mon.

I personally dont think its too good for OU, but t-wave spam is really unhealthy for the game.
 
I don't even... I play mostly stall and I have yet to have an issue with cleffable, probably on balance I always carry clerics or double switch into a wallbreaker that mostly mean a dead cleffable or a broken core, with stall I just taunt or out stall it with unaware users and residual damage in HO... Seriously do cleffable even gets a safe switch in?

Between sub orb Keldeo, trick scarf rotom H, RDTGR Manaphy, megamanectic, taunt mega Gardevoir, mixed Diancie, guts av conkeldurr, clear smog amongus, av tornadus, sub disable Gengar , AV metagross, specs Goodra, offensive heatran, taunt serperior fast Shuca volcanion, taunt mega gyarados and EP Landorus T I don't think I have seen it last long enough to even set rocks or twave.

Do people even use wallbreakers anymore? Or they just forget it can actually have unaware and get parahaxed after a supposed free turn to it...
 

Funbot28

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Rehashing what has been stated in the thread, the only real problem I see with Clef is just T-Wave spam which it can usually hax out its checks and proceed to continue haxing the rest of the team (usually bulky balance and sometimes stall). I actually wouldn't oppose a Thunder Wave suspect as it is arguable that the move has many anomalies to banned moves like Swagger and the recently discussed Scald. The RNG this move has in addition to it lowering your speed to leave the foe susceptible to the abuser isn't really healthy in my eyes.

Just my unpopular opinion tho (a.k.a not a meme...)

E: I am not saying that paralysis as a whole is unhealthy, but the immediate affect T-Wave has compared to moves like Discharge and abilities like Static just further enhance its potency.
 
I wouldn't say Thunder Wave alone is a problem, but just that Clefable is a terrific user of it (Perhaps the best one in a long time in OU?). It really helps it that almost anything offensive that does not care about TW is actually afraid of switching in: for the ones that come out from my head right now, Garchomp is weak to its STAB, Excadrill beats CM sets but you cannot mindlessly switch in at first (Because it may not run TW but a Fire-type move), Mega Manectric is not supposed (And definetly isn't able) to break through it and Thundurus and Mega Diancie, the best bets I can think of, are 2HKOed after rocks, while they can only 2HKO a healthy Clefable if it's not Magic Guard.

Just what else in OU runs Thunder Wave? Only Thundurus, because of Prankster, and maybe Chansey.

Clefable is naturally not a god that can paralyze entire teams and get away with it, but at paralyzing, hardly anything can compete.

EDIT: Yes, yes, I know I forgot about Ferrothorn, and to a lower extent (Because Scald is the greater threat) the Slows.
 
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Slowbro, Slowking and power whip Ferrothorn, their switch ins do not appreciate it at all. Yes I'm the kind of guy that uses twave fireblast slowbro as it somehow works.
 
Rehashing what has been stated in the thread, the only real problem I see with Clef is just T-Wave spam which it can usually hax out its checks and proceed to continue haxing the rest of the team (usually bulky balance and sometimes stall). I actually wouldn't oppose a Thunder Wave suspect as it is arguable that the move has many anomalies to banned moves like Swagger and the recently discussed Scald. The RNG this move has in addition to it lowering your speed to leave the foe susceptible to the abuser isn't really healthy in my eyes.

Just my unpopular opinion tho (a.k.a not a meme...)

E: I am not saying that paralysis as a whole is unhealthy, but the immediate affect T-Wave has compared to moves like Discharge and abilities like Static just further enhance its potency.
I logged into my account for the first time in forever to point out how ridiculous this post is. Thunder wave has been around since the dawn of the series and not once throughout those near two decades was the move ever thought of as unhealthy or "uncompetitive" or whatever terminology people use to try to get things banned now.

Swagger wasn't a problem until prankster users and foul play pushed it over the limit. Thunder Wave not only has more complete stops (two types being completely immune to it), but also lacks the immediate threat that swagger did. There's no foul play-esque follow up for thunder wave outside of flinching moves, and when is the last time anyone has even seen a paraflinch Jirachi or Togekiss? An entire generation ago (or two for Togekiss)?

I mean do we need to ban stun spore too? What about glare? Why stop at paralysis when freeze is way worse? Every 1/5 games or so I play are ruined by an unlucky freeze, so can we please ban Ice Beam for not being healthy in my eyes?

I'm afraid this post will be deleted for being so inflammatory but man, seeing what Smogon's ban-centric culture has wrought makes my blood boil a bit. Grow a pair and try not switching your Mega Metagross into obvious thunder waves instead of trying to bargain for more nonsensical suspect tests.
 

Funbot28

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I logged into my account for the first time in forever to point out how ridiculous this post is. Thunder wave has been around since the dawn of the series and not once throughout those near two decades was the move ever thought of as unhealthy or "uncompetitive" or whatever terminology people use to try to get things banned now.

Swagger wasn't a problem until prankster users and foul play pushed it over the limit. Thunder Wave not only has more complete stops (two types being completely immune to it), but also lacks the immediate threat that swagger did. There's no foul play-esque follow up for thunder wave outside of flinching moves, and when is the last time anyone has even seen a paraflinch Jirachi or Togekiss? An entire generation ago (or two for Togekiss)?

I mean do we need to ban stun spore too? What about glare? Why stop at paralysis when freeze is way worse? Every 1/5 games or so I play are ruined by an unlucky freeze, so can we please ban Ice Beam for not being healthy in my eyes?

I'm afraid this post will be deleted for being so inflammatory but man, seeing what Smogon's ban-centric culture has wrought makes my blood boil a bit. Grow a pair and try not switching your Mega Metagross into obvious thunder waves instead of trying to bargain for more nonsensical suspect tests.
Ya I agree with your post for the most part, but I would just like ask the reasoning for the Scald suspect discussion in the PR? I can see a case that both of these moves have very low risk and righ reward attached to them, and a lot of component players use this reasoning when discussing Scald. I just wanted others opinion, and I wasn't actually fully proposing a ban on the move.

Jeez you guys calm down :)
 

eldes

Banned deucer.
so people cant handle t wave and scald now especially since t waves been around since gen 1 and the scald burn thing has been around since gen 5 like are they really that bad and annoying and broken that you guys cant handle it anymore
 
Scald is annoying, seriously single target lava plume with godlike distribution, WHY NOT?

Not gonna cry about it, but twave is a nice tool if you want to cripple incoming targets speed Stat, relying on parahax has never been my thing to be honest I just love the ability to outspeed something paralyzed instead if relying on scarfed mons to try and revenge stuff.
 
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I guess no one here plays RBY much. T-wave owns RBY OU. The meta is basically sleep, twave, and freeze prayers. Twave has been a problem before.

That said, no it isnt an issue now. It just sucks the fun out of Pokemon when the game is basically a string of 30% chances to lose the game. However, if you look at it objectively, it is similar to running something like focus blast or hurricane. It is a part of Pokemon and nothing more. If you dont want chance in your game, play chess.
 
wellllllll i don't like this scald / twave / clefable complaining so uhm


i've been really enjoying playing around with this guy lately. i'm posting here rather than VR because i don't really think mega amphy should rise up a rank or anything... just that this is a fun pokemon to use for those of you interested in something that's different but not total shit that makes you question why you aren't using something else instead.

while amphy isn't really a solid volcanion check (earth power & specs steam eruption + burns), it can switch into STABs of choice'd sets allowing you to gain momentum with volt switch. on top of that, it's actually a really solid check to torn-t, other birds, and obnoxious electric types. electrics and birds are always common, but given the prominence of torn-t in the past forever, amphy is really nice on more balanced / super bulky offensive builds that can benefit from a check to these more specific annoyances. also, amphy is just naturally super powerful, so pivoting out with volt switch actually does decent amounts of damage to things compared to other defensive pivots with u-turn / volt switch o:.

with all that said, amphy is still pretty bad... just fun to play around with. having to rely on rest as your recovery option on bulkier sets gets pretty annoying, and the agility wallbreaker set isn't really that good when there are a bunch of amazing (albeit not bulky / that comparable to mega amphy) electrics in the tier. nonetheless, amphy is pretty enjoyable to play around with in the current meta thanks to the dominance of certain mons.


Ampharos-Mega @ Ampharosite
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 248 HP / 20 SpA / 232 SpD / 8 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dragon Pulse
- Volt Switch
- Sleep Talk
- Rest

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 244 HP / 8 Def / 200 SpD / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Roost

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Leech Seed
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip

Latios @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 29 HP / 0 Atk
- Defog
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Recover

Talonflame (M)
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 248 HP / 204 SpD / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Swords Dance
- Acrobatics
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost

Keldeo-Resolute @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Secret Sword
this is a little balance build featuring mega ampharos that i built for teamshop a little awhile ago. you can read more about this team here. basically to start, i went with a dragon / ground / steel defensive backbone featuring gliscor to avoid the team becoming too passive. latios / talon / keld are basic offensive "staple" mons for balance that help to check a variety of threats while providing actual offensive pressure.

i just went with the standard amphy set here because i don't think others are that great (basically agility wallbreaker, discharge > volt switch, or amphy + baton pass). before coming up with this final product, i played around with ampharos + SpD rachi to pass wishes, allowing me to avoid using rest. i also tried clerics like alomomola, but those builds always ended up way too passive.


gliscor is another mon i've been playing around with, and it's actually in that team i just posted! however, i've mainly been playing around with it as a utility mon on more offensively inclined builds. basically, it all started with me getting bored of tossing lando-t / chomp onto an offensive build somewhere down the line. one team i built really needed the defensive utility a tanky ground provides, but lando-t and chomp didn't provide the longevity to take advantage of this role. gliscor, on the other hand, did.

with that said, using gliscor in place of a bulkier lando-t / chomp on more offensive builds means you're taking a hit to momentum. yeah you're able to check sand, bisharp, and other stuff in 1 slot, but you lose out on actual "oomf" in your attacks, basically making gliscor a less passive alternative to hippo for offensive builds that really need the defensive utility it provides.


Haxorus @ Lum Berry
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Poison Jab

Altaria-Mega @ Altarianite
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 172 Atk / 84 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Body Slam
- Heal Bell
- Roost

Magnezone @ Choice Specs
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Volt Switch

Keldeo-Resolute @ Coba Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 1 Atk / 30 SpA
- Hydro Pump
- Scald
- Secret Sword
- Hidden Power [Electric]

Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Heart Stamp
- U-turn
- Healing Wish

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 244 HP / 200 Def / 64 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Roost
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
this team is pretty jokey (haxorus lol), but it's pretty enjoyable dragmag that utilizes physically defensive gliscor. funnily enough, gliscor really doesn't hurt the momentum of this team all that much; landorus-t definitely fit better with the momentum of this build, but things like SD chomp, opposing landorus-ts, sand, birds, etc. were too much for lando-t to handle in 1.

i know this isn't a new development (that cbb dragmag offense from awhile ago had gliscor, actually), but i don't really see utility gliscor sets see that much use > lando-t / chomp. while this makes total sense, gliscor is a pretty nice option when the extra bulk / longevity is needed because it doesn't totally kill your momentum like hippo would lol :3c.


while i definitely think gengar dropping a rank in VR is warranted at this point, i also believe that a lot of people heavily overlook gengar when building. i've only started playing around with gengar recently, meaning i haven't really battled too much, but from the battles i've played, i've noticed quite a few people who have essentially nothing for gengar. mega scizor and tyranitar (and whatever other threat to gengar i feel like i'm forgetting atm) are definitely huge forces in the metagame that see high usage, but not every team runs these two pokemon ofc lol. a large chunk of the ones that don't are usually relying on just out-offensing gengar. it's almost as if playing with gengar is a huge 50/50: your opponent will either have the pretty popular mon that nearly totally shuts it down, or your opponent won't have much for it at all. this can be said about a lot of pokemon around the A- to B level on the VR thread for sure...

i won't post my team because i'm still playing around with it, but what i've been doing is running gengar + bulky pivot + thing that can pressure pursuit trappers as my starting core. for example:


Gengar @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 29 HP / 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Wave
- Focus Blast
- Taunt

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 204 SpD / 52 Spe
Careful Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- U-turn
- Iron Head

Keldeo-Resolute @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Scald
- Secret Sword
- Icy Wind
this is just one variant of this that's incorporated in one of my builds. basically, the core utilizes spdef jirachi as a slow u-turner to bring gengar in. a funny situation this core places me in a lot goes along the lines of:
  1. i bring in keld against (insert whatever pokemon here), this lures in lati@s, allowing me to icy wind.
  2. icy wind lowers speed, odds are they're going for draco / psyshock / roost, so i just go into rachi.
  3. from there, they either switch out to play it safe or predict and go into lando-t / chomp / tran / w.e to take the iron head (or u-turn), usually predicting that it's scarf rachi.
  4. i u-turn out and have the ability bring gengar in. if they stayed in with lati thinking they're the best player ever, i outspeed and pressure them with shadow ball or w.e. if they switched out, i can either go gengar or something more appropriate.
this is a pretty basic cycle that'll happen with slow volt-turners in general, but it's really funny how it works here with gengar because it can just immediately pressure a lot of stuff. this type of thing usually doesn't happen if they have a pursuiter because i'm clearly gonna make sure gengar doesn't die early on (it's a pretty good wincon in a lot of situations).

in general, slow volt-turner + thing that applies pressure + thing that handles that things annoying checks makes for really nice bulky offense (see: specs hoopa + rotom-w pre-ban, band terrakion + rotom-w / w.e, etc.).

on another note, with gengar you have a ton of enjoyable fourth move options to play around with on this thing: taunt, destiny bond, trick (if choice), HP fire, icy wind / HP ice (if scared of bisharp), dazzling gleam, substitute, wisp, pain split, energy ball, psychic, thunderbolt... (last few are pretty shit). in addition to that, there are some fun sets to play around with other than standard LO like sub + disable, subsplit, hex, specs, and scarf (really dumb).

so while the meta hasn't been kind to gengar with the rise in pursuit / ttar and mega scizor becoming a little better than it already was (cause tankchomp, zard-x, etc. usage declining), gengar is still a nice threat that's fun to play around with.

-----

so yeah, this was just a random assortment of mons i've been playing around with & wanted to post about without discussing their rankings on VR. also, please don't use haxorus the thing is absolutely terrible :x. i decided to use it because it was D on VR awhile ago, and someone told me i should try it out when i questioned that placing... it's been a little while!, but i did end up trying it out with a dragmag build (aka the only thing you can possibly make it work on), and i find myself wishing i used something that isn't absolute garbage :3c.
 

Karxrida

Flip Shock Rex
is a Community Contributor
I guess no one here plays RBY much. T-wave owns RBY OU. The meta is basically sleep, twave, and freeze prayers. Twave has been a problem before.

That said, no it isnt an issue now. It just sucks the fun out of Pokemon when the game is basically a string of 30% chances to lose the game. However, if you look at it objectively, it is similar to running something like focus blast or hurricane. It is a part of Pokemon and nothing more. If you dont want chance in your game, play chess.
I agree that T-Wave isn't an issue, but this comparison is flawed. Hurricane and Focus Blast have a 30% chance of flat-out failing, while Thunder Wave won't fail at its primary function (reduce Speed) unless the target is immune or has a Lum Berry. It just happens to have a nifty side-effect that is reliant on hax.
 
You also can't compare Thunder Wave in the aspect of two entirely different generations and in the context of who and what is using it effectively then say "it's been a problem before" which is a subjective point on top of everything other missing detail. I agree with steviestars point above though, more on the side of sucking it up, not the complete stops portion.
Besides I enjoy the salt T-wave clef induces and if anyone takes that away I'll send AM after you.
No gtfo
 
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Gary

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I don't know if it's because I've been working with a bunch of meat head hormonal douche bags for almost every day for the last two years, but I've definitely learned the more I played this game that 75% of competitive Pokemon is about sucking it up and just realizing that hax is part of the game and trying to ban moves purely because of their ability to hax wins away, is a really pussified way of going about playing the game. Banning moves like Swagger that are deemed uncompetitive due to relying on coin flips to win the game is different, but moves like Scald or Thunder Wave have legitimate competitive uses that aren't primarily used to hax the opponent like Swagger. Suspecting moves like Scald and T-wave would open up Pandora's box, because then practically any move with a bullshit secondary effect could technically be suspect worthy at that point. It would heavily twist the tiering philosophy and what defines things being "suspect worthy".

Like Steviestars said, it's your fault if you risk switching your only Clef check into a T-wave, or you win con into an obvious Scald. It's not like T-wave and Scald put so much pressure on teams to a point where you have to make huge risks that could potentially lose you the game, and if that's the case then you just need to find a better built team. Of course nothing really appreciates the burn chance with Scald other than Natural Cure and Water Absorbers, but there are still Pokemon that can easily find their ways onto teams that are pretty safe Scald switch-ins, and the exact same thing can be said for T-wave (hell T-wave is a lot easier to deal with IMO). SwagPlay had very little counterplay to it outside of using shit mons and on top of that it was uncompetitive itself as it required no skill, no prediction, and it's not something that could simply be prepared for or played around. Thunder Wave Clef and Scald answers CAN be prepared for, and they CAN be dealt with easily without having to take insane risks all the time. Obviously there will be situations where you will have to risk a Scald burn or a paralysis chance, but the same could be said with freeze chances, confusions, shitty sleep turns, misses, etc. Hax is such a huge part of the game that can't simply be suspected and removed like Pokemon or Mega stones, and a good competitive player knows when to take risks and to play it safe in order to prevent the possibility of hax from losing them the game.

So in the end, it doesn't matter if T-wave made Clef broken. Banning T-wave isn't the solution because T-wave itself is not broken on anything else, so banning the Pokemon would 100% be the best and only solution. Banning a move should never the first option, it should only be an option if it is deemed broken and or uncompetitive on practically any Pokemon that uses it, which is why banning King's Shield was considered an option during the Aegi re-test because it was unique to Aegi and nothing else and it was a big reason why Aegi was so difficult to deal with, so it made sense. But Clef isn't broken, it's just dumb, so yeah there's that.

Or you know, some of you guys can just quit being bitches and realize you're playing a game that revolves around chance, and if you don't like it then find another game to play.
 
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But I thought you liked salt. :(

Anyway since its pretty much agreed that clef and T-wave aren't broken. I figure I change the topic. With spike stacking growing in popularity what is everyone's thoughts on cores using multiple magic guard users on a team? What benefits do having multiple Magic guard users bring?
 

Martin

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Actually I've used CM+T-Wave Clef+CM Reuni to pretty good success. Considering that these two 'mons are basically the extent of Magic Guard in OU (outside of Ala-"I-can't take-any-hits-anyway"-kazam), I thought I'd comment on it. In addition to being a pretty bog-standard setup spam core, we have two mons which actually cover each-other pretty decently. Clefable eats up Dark-type attacks targetted at Reuni, and with them sharing similar checks that they can lure for each-other (i.e. Steel-types) they do a pretty good job of weakening them for each-other. In addition to this, Thunder Wave support that Clefable provides allows for Reuniclus to both cheese the occasional bit of free setup and outpace stuff to get up CMs or deal damage before they can attack. And then, of course, these two can't be worn down by hazards and status, making them that much harder to break through after a few CMs, while Reuniclus is able to win CM wars with STAB Psyshock.
 
You also can't compare Thunder Wave in the aspect of two entirely different generations and in the context of who and what is using it effectively then say "it's been a problem before" which is a subjective point on top of everything other missing detail. I agree with steviestars point above though, more on the side of sucking it up, not the complete stops portion.
No gtfo
I was simply addressing the people who said that thunder wave has been around since gen 1 and was never brought up as an over powered, over centralizing, or uncompetitive move before. My point wasnt to compare gen 6 and 1 as somehow similar. Sorry if I didnt make that clear.
 
Actually I've used CM+T-Wave Clef+CM Reuni to pretty good success. Considering that these two 'mons are basically the extent of Magic Guard in OU (outside of Ala-"I-can't take-any-hits-anyway"-kazam), I thought I'd comment on it. In addition to being a pretty bog-standard setup spam core, we have two mons which actually cover each-other pretty decently. Clefable eats up Dark-type attacks targetted at Reuni, and with them sharing similar checks that they can lure for each-other (i.e. Steel-types) they do a pretty good job of weakening them for each-other. In addition to this, Thunder Wave support that Clefable provides allows for Reuniclus to both cheese the occasional bit of free setup and outpace stuff to get up CMs or deal damage before they can attack. And then, of course, these two can't be worn down by hazards and status, making them that much harder to break through after a few CMs, while Reuniclus is able to win CM wars with STAB Psyshock.
I don't know man, this seems like an invitation into LO Bisharp/Taunt SD Tflame especially against hazard offense, those 2 can cause some severe damage to this core on their own and the playstyles you see them in are fairly common in this metagame.
 

Martin

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I don't know man, this seems like an invitation into LO Bisharp/Taunt SD Tflame especially against hazard offense, those 2 can cause some severe damage to this core on their own and the playstyles you see them in are fairly common in this metagame.
Ofc it has weaknesses. But its also not those two versus six opposing Pokémon. Its them+4 teammates. Not to mention that Taunt+SD Talon doesn't appreciate switching into T-wave, and then you can also cover it, bisharp and other 'mons with things like Stone Edge Gliscor.
 
It has been a long time since I saw a stone edge Gliscor. A really long time.

Wouldn't adding a Gliscor to that core also end up adding a LO Kyurem/LO Victini/RTGR Manaphy weakness to the core with only 2 offensive Pokémon to check it?
 
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