Resource ORAS OU Metagame Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
Yes I took that as an insult because everytime a suspect takes place or a complaint happens it's attributed to the OU Council under the premise we sit around and do jack shit. No saying "I don't know whether to argue this" is far from childish because I read the entirety of your post while you tried to explain in some generic broad detail why anything we've banned has arguments for being a positive reinforcement to the tier. So excuse me if I came off childish to your response that made me facepalm a little bit when you claimed Landorus "wasn't crazy". The irony of ego is amusing when you had to throw out the antic of screen-shotting a post that I had to address because it just sounds absolutely ridiculous no matter what tone you assume is articulated in a mature way. Let's call that point a stalemate because you're in no higher realm of maturity with that equally snarky response lol but sure thing.
You're right, I didn't go in and accurately dissect and disseminate individual arguments for each and individual ban because they would detract from the original point and get mired in the details - something which you're very frequently opposed to in your own posts. So sorry for being generic and general, to a knee-jerk community where at best it's extremely difficult to get your point across.

I don't know what you think is childish or egotistical about screen-shotting, I was literally looking to make you accountable for your poor attitude. I'm not an ego-driven or social media loving kind of guy, but I do believe in accountability. I'm extremely sorry for that.

Me stating Landorus "wasn't crazy" was just me phrasing things to as broad an audience as possible. However I'm a well educated man, if you want me to step my game up by proving I can articulate myself well (which by the way is horrendous on a board that should be multicultural such as this) I verily can. Good job at "keeping above it all and not lowering yourself" to respond the little people, btw.

How is that a problem that we don't satisfy those under the presumed 50% benchmark. With the tiering system in its current system in absolute disarray because it only requires a hypocritical ladder requisite to obtain voting rights in tiering systems that put more emphasis and value on tournament play to begin with? Please elaborate how we provide a venue for you to voice your opinion , no matter if you care about OU what so ever, and all of a sudden because there is no united opinion on the matter it's all of a sudden not appeasing to those that don't get their way? You do realize that every single ban thus far was a result of a meta shift correct especially noticeable in this generation where it took around 2 years for Landorus to actually get the boot as a result of a combination of multiple bans and meta-game shifts. Also the Aegislash re-test taught us one thing in that people are not open to re-tests and don't want to engage in adding more higher caliber threats to just to cover what is an assumption of an issue (in your case Clefable). This point is pretty applicable to about anything we would re-test. I honestly doubt bringing stuff back down is going to foster better results for the tier. Out of all the things we can do and try to do for the betterment tier this seems like a flawed idea.
If you're so jaded with the complaints of the fanbase and suggestions to improvements, I suggest you step down as a mod. Otherwise, suck it up.

This really isn't about Clefable nor was it ever, as I said it is the product of multiple bannings. You immediately discourage re-testing on one data point, and you also don't consider re-testing stuff together (i.e. in the mid-generational shift). However you want to shake it, the data is poor for the testing.

I guess we should all take your "honest doubt" as verbatim fact for what is good for the tier.

I can't tell by your join date or w/e but have you actually played a meta-game with Deoxys in it? Serious question because in a meta-game that progressed more towards a state with emphasis on hazards and funnily enough one huge reason Clefable is successful is due to its anti-hazard traits and capitalizing on said hazards, I'm failing to see the line where re-testing Deoxys is a good idea for the sake of a tier where we try to entertain high level competition in the perfect world. I don't know why people use M-Sableye as the justification that Deoxys would be ok. I mean....really?!? So Deoxys usage would all of a sudden be omitted due to M-Sableye and we just disregard that the M-Sableye user can also use Deoxys. I'm not sure about you but on top of the point about Clefable, centralizing the tier around Spikes through Deoxys usage, and putting more focused emphasis on hazards where do I sit back and say "wow that's a good idea".
Thanks for the naysaying framed as a "serious question", really I'm glad you think me worthy of questioning rather than not just shutting down with snippy bullish one-liners like normal. Yes of course I played then and yes it was bad, just look at my join date. Your seriously think anyone's join date would massively pre-date their play date?

I'm not saying Deo-D usage would have been omitted, and you know I'm not, but it was never really looked at thoroughly alongside M-Sableye. Again, deeply sorry for lining out obvious facts.

No I don't know what you mean by obviously? Do I just pick whoever to test these things and go off of them and say "looks good ha" disregarding that bottom 50% you put emphasis on earlier? Maybe some clarification on how we select the pool of players as if we already don't put a heavy emphasis on utilizing a small pool of people with the way suspect votes are held would be nice.
Well statistically, randomized group sampling is better than systematic group sampling. Isn't that basic math? Sorry to be glib, but you're asking how to make this selection more open - well, there you go.

I would appreciate if you respond to all these points, particularly those where a good vocabulary is necessary for an argument to be considered valid by you (in particular, "crazy - [which I never used by the way]" as a suitable adjective for a 140 base 252+ Atk STAB attack for a multi-ethnic multi-lingual fanbase apparently not also being suitable for discourse with the mods).

Again screen-shotted, and not for reasons of my own vanity as you so lovingly implied.
 
Last edited:
Jojobobo Whether or not you liked my responses if you're gonna attack the way I present myself, mind you not even close to offensive or ego statistical as you define it, I think we're done talking as it's surprisingly as mentioned not going to go anywhere. I asked your join date because people transition through tiers and it was an implied serious question. Call the community however you see fit, knee-jerk or w/e, then look at yourself and realize how preposterous you actually sound. I'm gonna think about the betterment of the tier, while you're going to be still taking photos of my posts on the aspect of accountability. Have a nice day.
 
I think there's no way I can post anything that won't be deleted at this point, but good luck not seeing this as my signature on this account or subsequent accounts I choose to make if you do. If you pick apart the language that someone presents themselves with, then how can you possibly expect them to react? I'm glad also that you're so willing to give yourself the easy out - just label me "preposterous" and be done with it. I've raised several questions about several aspects of the tiering system for you to try and paint me as acting inappropriately. This isn't on me it's on you.
 
Last edited:
I noticed that Ground-types run much more Speed now to not give Volcanion a free Steam Eruption (which means less Phy Def Lando-T). Furthermore, with more Electric-types and Water/Grounds, I think Mamoswine is much more usable in this meta (I myself paired this with Volcanion and it's doing a decent job). Mega Slowbro has also benefited from this Volcanion rise. True, it hates Electric-types but with Volcanion being Choice-locked, it can get Calm Minds easily and sweep an unprepared team.

If not for the rise in bulky Waters, I would say this is a good chance for Zard-X to make a comeback but it hates fast Offensive Chomp and bulky Waters.
 
Last edited:

Punchshroom

Paralysis is slightly less of a devil
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
You're right, I didn't go in and accurately dissect and disseminate individual arguments for each and individual ban because they would detract from the original point and get mired in the details - something which you're very frequently opposed to in your own posts. So sorry for being generic and general, to a knee-jerk community where at best it's extremely difficult to get your point across.
It is not difficult to get your point across, but your sarcastic attitude here is not fueling your argument at all:
I don't know what you think is childish or egotistical about screen-shotting, I was literally looking to make you accountable for your poor attitude. I'm not an ego-driven or social media loving kind of guy, but I do believe in accountability. I'm extremely sorry for that.
If you're so jaded with the complaints of the fanbase and suggestions to improves, I suggest you step down as a mod. Otherwise, suck it up.
Again screen-shotted, and not for reasons of my own vanity as you so lovingly to implied.
If all you're doing is just waiting for AM's response to your repeated arguments, at least be gracious about it and stop attacking or "mudslinging" this man, as you've put it. I think gamer boy's comment put you extremely on edge, because nothing AM said was out of line at all (for instance, he just genuinely asked you if you played the Deo-D meta and you blew up thinking he was criticizing your meta knowledge) and definitely doesn't warrant your high-strung responses. Perhaps it's not what other people said and more along the lines that you're just easily offended and really do not want to be knocked off your high pedestal in any way, and chances are you're going to be offended by this very comment as well.

You gotta realize that retest suggestions are being brought up from time to time by plenty of other people other than yourself, so these kind of posts are usually going to taken with a grain of salt. While your posts are relatively informed, the notion of retesting these proven-to-be-broken threats just to curb the threat of Clefable seems...how you say, quite selfish? Now I won't deny that Clefable isn't extremely annoying to fight against, but I'd say it hasn't progressed to a level where it made the meta 'cancerous', in comparison to the banned mons that you're suggesting to retest. Every team has their Achilles heel, and while yours is Clefable, I've seen many teams that just crumble to things like Talonflame, Manaphy, Serperior, etc. If Clefable really bothers you that much, you can make a point in employing more universal / specialised responses, such as Nidoking (recently brought up in VR)

This really isn't about Clefable nor was it ever, as I said it is the product of multiple bannings. You immediately discourage re-testing on one data point, and you also don't consider re-testing stuff together (i.e. in the mid-generational shift). However you want to shake it, the data is poor for the testing.
From the way you phrased most of your posts, especially the first one, you can't blame me if I doubt that you wouldn't begin to consider retesting the banned Pokemon if Clefable didn't present as much problems as it did for you (would you unban say, Greninja, on the notion that it helps beat down the bulky Grounds?). Meanwhile, the whole Aegislash debacle proved that distinct meta shifts in the same Generation do not necessarily facilitate retests, as results may largely be similiar; only when the new Generation rolls around would retests start to be considered (but still not guaranteed).

I would appreciate if you respond to all these points, particularly those where a good vocabulary is necessary for an argument to be considered valid for you ("crazy" as a suitable adjective for a 140 base 252+ Atk STAB attack for a multi-ethnic multi-lingual fanbase apparently not also being suitable for discourse with the mods).
Good vocabulary won't get you anywhere if your points are weak / flawed, and in your case, "bring back broken threat to check broken threat" has always been a very shaky policy, because when would it stop? Your suggestion would initiate a precedent that anyone can bring up retest suggestions, and if your reasoning goes through, there wouldn't be a reason to reject the others, even the blatantly broken ones.

I think there's no way I can post anything that won't be deleted at this point, but good luck not seeing this as my signature on this account or subsequent accounts I choose to make if you do. If you pick apart the language that someone presents themselves with, then how can you possibly expect them to react? I'm glad also that you're so willing to give yourself the easy out - just label me "preposterous" and be done with it. I've raised several questions about several aspects of the tiering system for you to try and paint me as acting inappropriately. This isn't on me it's on you.
Dafuq? Did you not see AM's numerous reasoning regarding your queries at all? AM didn't just post "shut up you're wrong" or other one-liners like that; he expressly stated with great detail why your idea, well, isn't very good, and you've taken the easy way out by trying to pin the blame on AM instead and resorting to derogatory comments when it seems you've nothing left to argue anymore. AM also never said you were breaking any rules with your behaviour or anything like that; he's just pointing out you were, and I ain't gonna sugarcoat this one, acting like a spoiled brat. Realize that all your comments and 'screenshotting' are only serving to harm your standing on this forum many times more than it will even scratch AM's, and you ingraining whatever his comment will be in your sig will be a permanent highlight / reminder to all.

So yeah, cool down before you make your next post and have a nice day and whatnot.
 
Last edited:
When we're actually having a conversation about who's being the most "mature" I think the conversation needs to stop.

Jojobobo your initial post simply framed Clefable as too difficult to deal with and being the source of a lack of variety in the tier. You implied that bringing back previously broken threats (M-Mawile et al) would be a potentially positive change to limit Clefable, and argued that changes which have occurred in the meta since these things were banned might have made them less broken. Correct me if I'm wrong of course.

The reality is that the vast majority of the playerbase don't see Clefable as being too difficult to deal with. Calm Mind + Thunder Wave is really the only set that is remotely difficult to prepare for, and I've had my share of losses because I was overly reliant on something like a Taunt Heatran to stop it. That said, hard counters do exist, and given Clefable's lack of bulk and speed it's relatively easy to find other counterplay as well.

You also seemed to have an issue specifically with Unaware Fable? It's an extremely weak bandaid mon which gets slapped on stall to cover as many threats as possible, but it's under extreme pressure to check these mons, since most of them do ~40% to it. It doesn't even have good instant recovery, and since it needs to heal, constantly, its Wish turns are incredibly easy to take advantage of. If you're really struggling with it, then that's on you.

Obviously broken checking "broken" is a bad argument, as others have said.

let any of Mega Mawile, Greninja, Aegislash, Mega Lucario or Lando-I back in the tier.
M-Mawile, M-Lucario, and Greninja are clearly not remotely suitable for OU. Aegislash has been tested twice already, and was generally regarded as too centralising; and now that Hoopa's gone I don't see how it would be any worse than on the previous occasions. Lando-I was just incredibly powerful and incredibly restrictive in teambuilding, to the point that honestly it makes your concerns about Clefable look ridiculous. In other words, none of these are going to be re-tested any time soon, and certainly not to keep Clefable, of all things, in check.

Does that answer your questions?
 
Leave poor clefable alone all she does is punish bad team building really hard which is a good thing and quite frankly if you're having trouble with it constantly then your team needs work. There is no other way to call it. It's the same thing when your walled by heatran, lando and sab or swept by keldeo and Zard. You prepare or lose its just a fact with a certain group of pokemon

If you have multiple checks and still lose then you just need to become better as player.

Yes she can beat heatran and gengar if given a turn but it's your fault for allowing her to set up. If you want to overcome clef your best bet is constant offence pressure or use a bulky psychic calm minder with psyshock.

Anyway is it just me or are bulky grounds seeing less pay now? Anyway reason why? Can't see anything that would drop there usage
 
If all you're doing is just waiting for AM's response to your repeated arguments, at least be gracious about it and stop attacking or "mudslinging" this man, as you've put it. I think gamer boy's comment put you extremely on edge, because nothing AM said was out of line at all (for instance, he just genuinely asked you if you played the Deo-D meta and you blew up thinking he was criticizing your meta knowledge) and definitely doesn't warrant your high-strung responses. Perhaps it's not what other people said and more along the lines that you're just easily offended and really do not want to be knocked off your high pedestal in any way, and chances are you're going to be offended by this very comment as well.
It was initially said in relation to what I posted I (or the community, however it was in direct response to what I said, so by implication me) was thankless for the council's hard work, and that what I said was disappointing and not worth responding to. Personally I do think that's hugely out of line and derogatory, a horrible way to respond to anyone in the community.

The reality is that the vast majority of the playerbase don't see Clefable as being too difficult to deal with. Calm Mind + Thunder Wave is really the only set that is remotely difficult to prepare for, and I've had my share of losses because I was overly reliant on something like a Taunt Heatran to stop it. That said, hard counters do exist, and given Clefable's lack of bulk and speed it's relatively easy to find other counterplay as well.

You also seemed to have an issue specifically with Unaware Fable? It's an extremely weak bandaid mon which gets slapped on stall to cover as many threats as possible, but it's under extreme pressure to check these mons, since most of them do ~40% to it. It doesn't even have good instant recovery, and since it needs to heal, constantly, its Wish turns are incredibly easy to take advantage of. If you're really struggling with it, then that's on you.
Now I won't deny that Clefable isn't extremely annoying to fight against, but I'd say it hasn't progressed to a level where it made the meta 'cancerous', in comparison to the banned mons that you're suggesting to retest. Every team has their Achilles heel, and while yours is Clefable, I've seen many teams that just crumble to things like Talonflame, Manaphy, Serperior, etc. If Clefable really bothers you that much, you can make a point in employing more universal / specialised responses, such as Nidoking (recently brought up in VR)
To respond to both of your related points, sure there are things that can deal with Clefable - this has been the point for pretty much anything that's ever been banned. However I think two abilities that are both valid is a huge restriction on the tier, most things that can handle one can't handle both sets. Players can use this to their advantage and keep Clefable on reserve for when they need it - which is a huge hinderance to the success of a lot of teams and an effect that nothing else in the tier really has (as in you may wonder is it scarfed, what's its coverage - but these are no where near the diametric shifts brought about by Clefable's two abilities).

I guess I'll leave this point here, and I do appreciate the validity of both of what you're saying - but I'm pretty unconvinced that it isn't broken. What it provides doesn't really inject much fun into the tier either, at least IMO - having to wait out for annoyingly little mind games is not for me a situation that is fun, and plenty of stuff in the past was banned for reasons of the mind games they produced.

Obviously broken checking "broken" is a bad argument, as others have said.

M-Mawile, M-Lucario, and Greninja are clearly not remotely suitable for OU. Aegislash has been tested twice already, and was generally regarded as too centralising; and now that Hoopa's gone I don't see how it would be any worse than on the previous occasions. Lando-I was just incredibly powerful and incredibly restrictive in teambuilding, to the point that honestly it makes your concerns about Clefable look ridiculous. In other words, none of these are going to be re-tested any time soon, and certainly not to keep Clefable, of all things, in check.

Does that answer your questions?
"bring back broken threat to check broken threat" has always been a very shaky policy, because when would it stop? Your suggestion would initiate a precedent that anyone can bring up retest suggestions, and if your reasoning goes through, there wouldn't be a reason to reject the others, even the blatantly broken ones.
Again lumping for the sake of convenience, I really never was saying bring back broken to check broken. What I was saying was that the meta feels stale, restrictive mons things like Clefable exacerbate the problem, and maybe retesting some of these threats may now inject some variety back in. As I also said, taking these mons on a case by case basis as is the current state of affairs does not necessarily demonstrate their ability for some of these to work as a whole and make the meta different but overall less stale.

And this never was me saying, "Oh this will definitely make the meta better, take my word for it." This was me saying that if we don't try we don't know, and certainly since a lot of these threats were banned there has been new additions to the meta which now might paint a different picture from when this stuff was banned.

And yes certainly some of these threats are crazy, like Mega Lucario or Greninja. But I don't think not being able to switch into a pokemon is necessarily terrible (M-Mawile), and as I said it would be more about whether things would work in combination, not just adding it back to the meta in its current state. Anyway you look at it, there's been a lot of offense pokemon bans this gen.

Dafuq? Did you not see AM's numerous reasoning regarding your queries at all? AM didn't just post "shut up you're wrong" or other one-liners like that; he expressly stated with great detail why your idea, well, isn't very good, and you've taken the easy way out by trying to pin the blame on AM instead and resorting to derogatory comments when it seems you've nothing left to argue anymore. AM also never said you were breaking any rules with your behaviour or anything like that; he's just pointing out you were, and I ain't gonna sugarcoat this one, acting like a spoiled brat. Realize that all your comments and 'screenshotting' are only serving to harm your standing on this forum many times more than it will even scratch AM's, and you ingraining whatever his comment will be in your sig will be a permanent highlight / reminder to all.

So yeah, cool down before you make your next post and have a nice day and whatnot.
Going back, saying that anything is beneath someone's time (which was explicitly implied with the "I'll watch on in disappointment and cluck my tongue at people's naivety") is extremely one-liner-ish and rude. Mods here are notorious for deleting posts, so screenshotting really is the only viable means to make sure legitimate concerns have their voice heard. If you ask someone to respond to your points, and they shelve the argument then I've got nothing to argue against - it's not a case as you so put of me having "nothing left to argue". Honestly, I can live with being called a spoilt brat, I guess I wasn't anticipating such rudeness from a moderator which put me on the back foot. It was a bullish unpleasant response, however you look at it.

Talking more on this point is useless and it isn't pokemon related, I do not think it was however an appropriate way for a mod to treat a member of the community.

Overall and back on the pokemon point, I don't think this is going anywhere - beyond people saying I'm a terrible player. I'm fine responding to more points, but it's best if they bring something new to the table - much of what can be said has now been said by me and by all of you.
 
Last edited:

Punchshroom

Paralysis is slightly less of a devil
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
Again lumping for the sake of convenience, I really never was saying bring back broken to check broken. What I was saying was that the meta feels stale, restrictive mons things like Clefable exacerbate the problem, and maybe retesting some of these threats may now inject some variety back in. As I also said, taking these mons on a case by case basis as is the current state of affairs does not necessarily demonstrate their ability for some of these to work as a whole and make the meta different but overall less stale.
See the problem with this line of thinking is that you believe Clefable to be a problem, but rather than trying to argue for its ban, you went the opposite route and wished to bring down its checks from Ubers. Honestly this kind of reasoning is one I've rarely seen: someone has issues with a certain mon but tolerates it enough to have it stay in the meta and instead opts for the return of hugely meta-altering threats that have massive effects and implications other than doing your desired deed (which is to stop Clefable). We even have an example in the form of the joke Giratina-O suspect, suggested on the "notion" that it helps blanket check 'elemental attackers', but obviously Giratina-O proved to be much more versatile than that.

And this never was me saying, "Oh this will definitely make the meta better, take my word for it." This was me saying that if we don't try we don't know, and certainly since a lot of these threats were banned there has been new additions to the meta which now might paint a different picture from when this stuff was banned.
Now I'm all for proposing certain mons to be tested within the meta, but primarily because no one has truly seen what those mons can really do in the meta. Pokemon that have already been banned prior have pretty much shown what they're capable of, and are not likely to be suggested for a retest within the same Generation, unless they want to just replicate the previous meta that they already had at one point (again, Aegislash is a good example of this).

To respond to both of your related points, sure there are things that can deal with Clefable - this has been the point for pretty much anything that's ever been banned. However I think two abilities that are both valid is a huge restriction on the tier, most things that can handle one can't handle both sets. Players can use this to their advantage and keep Clefable on reserve for when they need it - which is a huge hinderance to the success of a lot of teams and an effect that nothing else in the tier really has (as in you may wonder is it scarfed, what's its coverage - but these are no where near the diametric shifts brought about by Clefable's two abilities).
Few people overall have seriously entertained the idea of a Clefable ban (and I've definitely never seen anyone suggest bringing back Ubers to keep it in check). Ask yourself: why is this? Do other players know something you do not? Why aren't they having as much trouble with Clefable as you are? For starters, players rarely have to guess what kind of abilities Clefable is using via 2 factors. a) They look at the teambuilding structure, as Unaware Clefable is only really found on stall / bulky teams and would almost definitely have some form of hazard control (if they don't, chances are it's Magic Guard). b) They simply scout for the ability via residual damage (SR, Sandstorm, damaging status, etc.). I can understand if you're having issues trying to discern Clefable's movepool, but getting unexpectedly tripped up by Clefable's ability is something that actually rarely happens in practice.

And yes certainly some of these threats are crazy, like Mega Lucario or Greninja. But I don't think not being able to switch into a pokemon is necessarily terrible (M-Mawile), and as I said it would be more about whether things would work in combination, not just adding it back to the meta in its current state. Anyway you look at it, there's been a lot of offense pokemon bans this gen.
For starters, Mega Mawile had an insanely powerful Sucker Punch, so it's not even particularly easy to revenge kill either. Secondly, the numerous bans are an indication of Gen 6's sheer power creep, introducing several Pokemon that are just too much for the rest of the conceivable meta to hold up against.

Going back, saying that anything is beneath someone's time (which was explicitly implied with the "I'll watch on in disappointment and cluck my tongue at people's naivety") is extremely one-liner-ish and rude. Mods here are notorious for deleting posts, so screenshotting really is the only viable means to make sure legitimate concerns have their voice heard. If you ask someone to respond to your points, and they shelve the argument then I've got nothing to argue against - it's not a case as you so put of me having "nothing left to argue". Honestly, I can live with being called a spoilt brat, I guess I wasn't anticipating such rudeness from a moderator which put me on the back foot. It was a bullish unpleasant response, however you look at it.

Talking more on this point is useless and it isn't pokemon related, I do not think it was however an appropriate way for a mod to treat a member of the community.
For the record, this is what AM said:
Idk whether to argue this or feel insulted as if we don't give a shit in a position that everyday is becoming more thankless as the meta progresses and complaints that we have top tier threats exist and therefore the implication it should be banned but ok. So yeah I'm gonna bow out of this conversation and view this thread from afar with incoming disappointment. And no, that's not mudslinging, that's just what these discussions always come to seeing as how we're paying "so little attention". Good grief.
From what I can discern from AM's resigned tone, it's somewhat apparent that he's been through these kind of conversations before, likely even more baffling, ridiculous, and insulting than this one. Like I said, you're far from the only person to suggest retesting the banned mons, many of which lack basic meta knowledge to give convincing arguments; alternatively they may complain about the suspecting system, but offer no other relevant feedback / constructive criticism so they just come off as whining. I can't help but sympathize with mods having to remove this pointless clutter from the forums, which I assume either pops up on a weekly/fortnight basis or comes in droves at a time. This is most likely what AM implies when he's 'jaded' from seeing all the useless complaints; as if it is up to the council to fix all of their problems even though the complainers have the ability to fix most of them themselves, or those that don't offer any input on their part. While your meta knowledge is more sound (in comparison), nobody wants to put up with your sarcasm, so that's another way to get shot down.

Overall and back on the pokemon point, I don't think this is going anywhere - beyond people saying I'm a terrible player. I'm fine responding to more points, but it's best if they bring something new to the table - much of what can be said has now been said by me and by all of you.
No one is saying you're a terrible player, just turn down the sass, jeez. Your posts are somewhat ok otherwise (since they can occupy other people's concerns about Clefable), which is perhaps the sole reason they haven't been deleted. Also glad to see your posts are no longer snarky atm.
 
Last edited:
I didn't think I was being Passive Aggressive

Anyways, so, I've been messing around with a REALLY stupid core, that has actually been kind of fun. Not extremely practical, but still pretty efficient for taking out the couple of things that switch into Volcanion.


Volcanion @ Expert Belt
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 72 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 180 Spe
Modest Nature
- Steam Eruption
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Weather Ball


Abomasnow (F) @ Abomasite
Ability: Soundproof
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 8 HP / 68 Atk / 252 SpA / 180 Spe
Mild Nature
- Blizzard
- Giga Drain
- Ice Shard
- Earthquake

Hear me out. . . Yes, that is an Abomasnow, however, these two actually complement each other quite well. The things that come in on Volcanion, essentially SUPER bulky waters, can't really deal with a Mega Abomasnow, and the 'mons that tend to come in on Abomasnow, can't really deal with Volcanion. With that said, thanks to Hail being up, Weather Ball becomes a 100 BP Ice move, capable of 2HKO'ing some of the more popular Volcanion switch ins, being the Lati twins. Most Dragons don't take too kindly to Steam Eruption as it is just because of the burn chance, but Weather Ball can 2HKO or outright OHKO any Dragon not named Kingdra. It's a fun lure set, but does rely far too much on Hail being up, and considering the fact it's only 5 turns now, it's sometimes easier said than done. However, let's be honest, once the Lati twins are gone, Volcanion can essentially click Steam Eruption to its hearts content. STAB Water + Fire is SO god damned good. . .

Again, this isn't meant to be some meta breaking core or anything, I just thought I'd share it with everyone to snag some feedback.
 
Last edited:
Btw I noticed that this set that was rarely used before has some more viability now that volcanion exists:

Azumarill @ Choice Band
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Aqua Jet
- Play Rough
- Double-Edge

Double edge hits a lot of azu switchins like amoong, volcanion, and mvenu really fucking hard. You can run return too but double edge is a guaranteed 2hko after rocks on venu.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Double-Edge vs. 72 HP / 4 Def Volcanion: 203-239 (63.6 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Amoonguss: 232-273 (53.7 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Mega Venusaur: 168-198 (46.2 - 54.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 
Btw I noticed that this set that was rarely used before has some more viability now that volcanion exists:

Azumarill @ Choice Band
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Aqua Jet
- Play Rough
- Double-Edge

Double edge hits a lot of azu switchins like amoong, volcanion, and mvenu really fucking hard. You can run return too but double edge is a guaranteed 2hko after rocks on venu.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Double-Edge vs. 72 HP / 4 Def Volcanion: 203-239 (63.6 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Amoonguss: 232-273 (53.7 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Mega Venusaur: 168-198 (46.2 - 54.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
But Mega Venusaur can simply use Giga Drain and avoid the 2HKO, right? It's faster, after all...

0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 234-276 (60.9 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 

p2

BORN 2 SHIT
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
thats why normal coverage is only good on jolly azu, i guess you can roll with adamant if you only want to hit amoonguss

anyway bandtar has really been given some time in the spotlight with volcanion around since it reliably pursuits traps everything and comfortably deals with mega latias which can be quite a thorn in volcanions side. i think its pretty amazing that such a good stallbreaker has just been swept under the rug and ignored for the past 3 years or so since i don't know a single reliable switchin to it because crunch/sedge is already incredibly difficult to switch into, chuck in some coverage like superpower, eq or aqua tail and nothing is really reliably switching into this monster. i've had a lot of fun playing around with this mon lately.

speaking of sand related things, i think things are just downhill for mega venusaur atm - it's insanely weak to sand which is pretty much everywhere right now because it gets pressured by reduced synthesis recovery so badly, meanwhile all mega venu builds seem to be very very vulnerable to spikes, mostly because it's so easy to grab momentum off typical venu teams with skarmory or ferrothorn, hell even klefki puts in a good amount of work against them. so on top of the meta being extremely unkind to it, 2 huge threats that it counters are also falling in usage, mega altaria is almost uu at this point and azumarill has taken a hard hit with the introduction of volcanion, more manaphy are running psychic, more mega latias running around and torn and talon have been as prevalent as ever. i would honestly go as far as saying that it's outclassed by amoonguss at this point, the only thing really separating it from mega venu is thick fat and the fact that venu's sludge bomb hits slightly harder than a wet noodle, and i guess you could include being a more reliable overall answer to azumarill. it also struggles with volcanion which pressures it with steam burns and specs fire blast does well over 60% anyway. i don't see this thing sticking around for much longer and its just gonna completely drop off over the next few months imo
 
speaking of sand related things, i think things are just downhill for mega venusaur atm - it's insanely weak to sand which is pretty much everywhere right now because it gets pressured by reduced synthesis recovery so badly, meanwhile all mega venu builds seem to be very very vulnerable to spikes, mostly because it's so easy to grab momentum off typical venu teams with skarmory or ferrothorn, hell even klefki puts in a good amount of work against them. so on top of the meta being extremely unkind to it, 2 huge threats that it counters are also falling in usage, mega altaria is almost uu at this point and azumarill has taken a hard hit with the introduction of volcanion, more manaphy are running psychic, more mega latias running around and torn and talon have been as prevalent as ever. i would honestly go as far as saying that it's outclassed by amoonguss at this point, the only thing really separating it from mega venu is thick fat and the fact that venu's sludge bomb hits slightly harder than a wet noodle, and i guess you could include being a more reliable overall answer to azumarill. it also struggles with volcanion which pressures it with steam burns and specs fire blast does well over 60% anyway. i don't see this thing sticking around for much longer and its just gonna completely drop off over the next few months imo
Yea, I agree with this. The lack of Regenerator (Tangrowth/Amoongus) or Leftovers (again, Tangrowth/Amoongus) means that Mega Venusaur gets chipped down a ton every time it switches in, especially with sand and/or hazards up. With sand, you can't even reliably recover health back and are often forced to switch out AGAIN or just let hazards get up for free or something, which is less than ideal.

If you need a hard stop to something like CB Azumarill, PhysDef Tangrowth (and Amoonguss) not only handles that with ease, but also saves your mega slot while providing equivalent utility (Sleep Powder/Stun Spore/Knock Off) AND having Regenerator means you can come in while hazards/sand are up, take a hit, and switch out without losing TOO much life or being forced to stay in and Synthesis and losing a ton of momentum (assuming there's no weather that hinders your Synthesis, something that's becoming more unlikely since Volcanion synergizes with Rain and Sand teams).
 
Banded superpower hits volcanion just as hard and amoonguss isn't common enough to run a lure just to 2hko it. normal coverage should really only be used on jolly bd sets since venu outspeeds and clicks giga anyways. Azu is a great mon using both banded and belly drum sets, but you need to run the right coverage to make it work well.
amoonguss is fairly common in my experience, and superpower comes with nasty attack and defense drops. If your team is weak to venu, amoong, and volc, double edge is worth considering. My post was just pointing out that double edge has the added bonus of hitting volcanion now. I was not arguing that double edge is the best filler to run, and I only brought up stuff like venu and amoong to show that double edge has other targets besides just volcanion. (I didnt really think it through when i posted the spread and calcs though, so i do apologize for that)
 

Imperator Romanum

formerly Grains of Salt
once again, small sample size.
That's like saying dunking in basketball isn't an excellent strategy in basket ball because only the best players can do it, they're literally the best players whose usage should be valued a little more than your average pokemon player.

Silly.

Anyways, what are some good stallbreakers right now? sort of feel like stall is soon to be very dominant in the tier. Any good cores to handle it?

I've been enjoying Shuca Berry Volcanion a bunch, it's excellent for luring the ground types and nuking them. Lo exca / Soft sand adamamt lando do around 50-60%. And are ohkod back. Alternatively power herb is pretty niche but could be interesting!
 
if that's 1700 stats, there's like 20 people on thaht part of ladder
That's not how those stats work. Usage stats from the upper end of the ladder are weighed more heavily, but that doesn't mean that those from the mid and lower range are completely ignored. If you want a real representation of what the best players are using, those upper level stats are the way to go.

Also, there are over 200 users currently in the 1700+ range, so...
 
Not sure if this has been stated here yet, but I feel any offensive Volcanion set should at least run enough speed to outpace Azumarill if you plan to use HP investment like on a bulky specs set or something. It should even run enough for Jolly variants since that's apparently being talked about right now. Outpacing Jolly even gives you the added bonus of outpacing min speed Rotom-W. Otherwise, you might as well run max speed EVs to at least tie with the usual adamant 70s.

Has anyone tried more defensive Volcanion sets? It does get access to Will-o-Wisp and investing in SpDef can help balance out its base 120 physical bulk and Attack-crippling burns from Steam Eruption and Willo. Now, I know Volcanion gets Steam Eruption so Willo sounds kinda redundant, but you have to remember that Steam Eruption only has 8 PP and it isn't 100% accurate, unlike Scald, so having a move that can somewhat guarantee a burn (I say somewhat because Willo can also miss, but it has more PP) can be beneficial.
 

Mannat

Nuke Dynamax
is a Tutoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Won SPL Predictions
Not sure if this has been stated here yet, but I feel any offensive Volcanion set should at least run enough speed to outpace Azumarill if you plan to use HP investment like on a bulky specs set or something. It should even run enough for Jolly variants since that's apparently being talked about right now. Outpacing Jolly even gives you the added bonus of outpacing min speed Rotom-W. Otherwise, you might as well run max speed EVs to at least tie with the usual adamant 70s.

Has anyone tried more defensive Volcanion sets? It does get access to Will-o-Wisp and investing in SpDef can help balance out its base 120 physical bulk and Attack-crippling burns from Steam Eruption and Willo. Now, I know Volcanion gets Steam Eruption so Willo sounds kinda redundant, but you have to remember that Steam Eruption only has 8 PP and it isn't 100% accurate, unlike Scald, so having a move that can somewhat guarantee a burn (I say somewhat because Willo can also miss, but it has more PP) can be beneficial.
I find toxic a lot better on volcanion over wisp since scald can burn a lot and toxic cripples the bulky waters and dragons that like to switch into volc. You should run scald>steamer on fat teams since pp is a legitimate concern, and you should probably invest moreso in defense than special defense since ur supposed to basically run chansey (catch all wall for 90% of special attackers)+keld counter. also you should probably just run enough for adamant variants since jolly ones are a bit weaker.
 
I find toxic a lot better on volcanion over wisp since scald can burn a lot and toxic cripples the bulky waters and dragons that like to switch into volc. You should run scald>steamer on fat teams since pp is a legitimate concern, and you should probably invest moreso in defense than special defense since ur supposed to basically run chansey (catch all wall for 90% of special attackers)+keld counter. also you should probably just run enough for adamant variants since jolly ones are a bit weaker.
If you're not going to run steam eruption on volcanion and instead use a defensive set, you may as well just use rotom-w. Fits onto defensive teams far far better being immune to ground, neutral from rocks unlike volc, reliable burn (or at least more reliable than scald), volt switch, and at least halfway decent recovery. Only thing volc has over it in terms of defensive capabilities is water absorb, but realistically your opponent is going to want to secret sword or play rough your rotom rather than scald or waterfall it.
 
I think you're missing the point about defensive volcanion in that it doesnt necessitate a defensive team to be floored by stall-breaker talonflame, which is a weakness with a lot of defensive teams, since unlike Rotom-w it can now apply offensive pressure using scald while covering steels such as Ferro in one slot. If you've tried using a Rotom-W to cover a SpDef Talonflame you'll notice real quick the moment Rotom-W catches an incoming Will-O-Wisp it starts to become shakier and shakier as a check in the long run. Rotom-W's only means to handle most steels is throwing a will-o-wisp while Volcanion can actually attack / threaten them with Flamethrower. You don't need Wisp on Volcanion when Scald, flamethrower, toxic, utility move (I use Haze) will cover what Volcanion would be doing in terms of defensive utility. Rotom-W also doesn't have the viable means to beat things like Mega Bro 1v1 as it sets up on you while you volt switch and turn your team-mates into fodder. They cover different threats defensively, even offensively when you consider Volcanions access to Flamethrower such as Amoonguss and grasses, and I don't know why people are using steam eruption on the defensive set with the low pp that it has that defeats the purpose of using it for defense. Definitely has more than just Water Absorb as defensive utility.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top