Resource ORAS OU Metagame Discussion

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I've been looking at a few things here and there and caught that Volcanion + Landorus-T can make for a very good offensive core. Volcanion covers the water and ice weaknesses that plague Landorus-T (especially Azumarill) while Landorus-T handles the electric, rock, and ground type weaknesses that hurt Volcanion and can even provide momentum for Volcanion with U-Turn.



Volcanion @ Choice Specs
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 112 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 140 Spe
Modest Nature
- Steam Eruption
- Fire Blast
- Sludge Wave / Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Electric] / Hidden Power [Grass]

Landorus-Therian @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Here's an example of this core using Landorus-T to give Volcanion momentum. As for the Volcanion spread, max SpA Modest for sheer firepower, 140 speed to outpace 8 speed Rotom-W, and the rest in bulk. 4 EVs are transferred from HP to Defense to give Volcanion an odd HP number.
 
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A very interesting partner came to mind as I was reading the current discussion.

Rotom-H @ Choice Scarf (Timid)
4 HP/252 SpA/252 SpE
Will-O-Wisp
Thunderbolt
Overheat
Volt Switch

Same offensive synergy as Heatran + Ground immunity and more consistent Tbolt instead of a Solarbeam which will lose its shock factor as VolcTran becomes a thing. With Timid, Scarfed Will-O-Wisp allows you to tag M-Lopunny as well as M-Gyara @ +1, along with all unboosted base 135s. While incredible when paired with Volc's Specs variant, the shared SR weakness (even w/ Defog Latias) became a pain rather quickly:

Rotom-Mow @ Choice Scarf (Timid)
Leaf Storm
Thunderbolt
Will-O-Wisp
Volt Switch

Does everything Rotom-H does while also picking up Solarbeam Heatran's ability to beat bulky waters. You trade the SR weakness for U-Turn while gaining even better offensive coverage. Volcanion checks most of the relevant U-Turn users and Weavile while Rotom-H Leaf Storm OHKOs Gastrodon, M-Diancie, opposing Rotom-W & Swampert while giving you a solid chance at one-shotting Suicune & Landorus-T with rocks up. (Modest Leaf Storm has a 25% chance to OHKO 252 HP Suicune outright) Will have recordings up as I tweak the core further; would also argue that Earth Power is a must for beating out opposing Volc. Momentum control and a useful emergency Will-O-Wisp provide utility that Serperior doesn't.
Going to have to cosign Rotom-C as one of the better partners for Volcanion. Another user already highlighted that both speedy electrics & offensive grasses provide decent synergy. Rotom-C handles both roles while contributing defensively as a check to most common sweepers at +1. Thundurus has problems beating Bulky waters without Nasty Plot while also struggling to fit Grass Knot onto a moveset, Rotom-C acts as an incredible pivot partner for Volc, as most Grounds who would otherwise null Volt Switch fear Leaf Storm. Great idea.
 
It was never said that Rotom-C does it better, rather that Thundurus struggles against Seismitoad, Quagsire & friends if not running Grass Knot (You can Taunt to find yourself getting hit by an Ice Beam.) There's also less stress in teambuilding as there's no shared weakness to SR nor reliance on a one-time Solarbeam if we're talking about partners to Volcanion. Sure, Rotom-C isn't matching Thundurus in terms of raw utility across the board, but Will-O-Wisp, Trick, & Thunder Wave are more than enough IMO. As for set up, click Leaf Storm.

252 SpA Scarf Rotom-C Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 356-420 (88.1 - 103.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Scarf Rotom-C Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 192-228 (47.5 - 56.4%)
252 SpA Scarf Rotom-C Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Seismitoad: 1020-1204 (246.3 - 290.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Scarf Rotom-C Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 76+ SpD Slowking: 314-372 (79.8 - 94.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Scarf Rotom-C Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Mega Slowbro: 470-554 (119.2 - 140.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 

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I mean my point was in what possible realm of reality are you leaving in any of those on a rotom-c in the first place? I think those calcs represent maybe the very last mon you're fighting I must be missing the realistic scenario that's ever taking place there in those calcs? Idk that just seems silly considering that Thundurus can break all those as well and the Quagsire example still doesn't change the fact Focus Blast does a bunch. You can cater Thundurus to do a lot, the what ifs seem meaningless if the possibility is still there. If volcanions best checks include water/ground water immune mons then yes Grass Knot on Thundurus can be an option to break it while forcing games more in favor of the Thundurus user.

Unless there's a specific purpose I just don't get why you're just not pairing Volcanion with a more useful grass type when you want to give a damn about building, more than the Thundurus point I guess. You're already going to be strapped for team slots as is in ORAS, so what's the point of legitimately using Rotom-C.

Edit: Also welcome to Smogon.
 
Noticed that volcanion learns weather ball. Thought it would be an interested set and tried it out on a sand team since using it on any other weather team doesn't make much sense. It did okay, though weather ball rock doesn't hit anything its dual stabs hit besides dragons and other volcanions harder than earth power.
 

Mannat

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I was one of the first people to mention sab+volc and ppl are stealing my ideas ;-:

That aside, I can really see the sab+volc core doing really good on stall since rocks are basically impossible to set up vs sab unless your name is clefable, heatran, or sd lum garchomp and that's really nice, klefki can't even set up spikes since dazzling gleam does jack shit to sable, ferro is walled since burnt power whip does four to sable, and skarm is under the same boat as ferro since it cant do jack shit to sab and relies on its status moves to combat most foes. Obviously this is all given with msab but its hazard control is great and sab can even use wisp to cripple fat waters that don't like status. Also, Sab checks most ground types in the tier that volc doesn't like switching into quite well bar like glisc, and even that is bodied by foul play if it tries to click sd vs sab. Sab is usually paired up with chansey, who could run wishpass to somewhat help with volc's lack of reliable recovery and also run heal bell to get rid of random toxics from like trans and shit. Bulky waters really annoy volc, so toxic could be a viable option on fatter sets to wear them down, and toxic chansey could be an option if you are willing to run wish without running protect (although I don't recommend that). Amoong is really nice to check specsdeo and other offensive waters for stall, and that mon checks bulky waters like gastro and seis pretty well, so that also helps volcanion's case. Mega Latias is toxic'd by pretty much anything on stall since it's so fucking weak, and that's nice for volc.

Also,
Noticed that volcanion learns weather ball. Thought it would be an interested set and tried it out on a sand team since using it on any other weather team doesn't make much sense. It did okay, though weather ball rock doesn't hit anything its dual stabs hit besides dragons and other volcanions harder than earth power.
If you wanna be hipster, weather ball in the hail hits dragons a lot harder.
 

bludz

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Yeah so far been using Specs Volc and its really nice. Lots of things simply drop to Specs Steam Eruption...good lord this thing is strong. Volcanion really just dunks on all Steel-types honestly, but certain trends in the meta happening before it was released are against it. Mega Lati, the popularity of strong Rock-type attackers (Tyranitar, Terrakion, Diancie) and grounds tending to run more speed in the case of fast Garchomp. Still, its really good either way but it's gonna take a little time for really strong builds with it to emerge.

Honestly think its great with Diancie since just about every good switch-in to Diancie can be doubled into Volcanion on and then you fire off some absurdity. Diancie also checks opposing Volcs and Mega Lati plus the Magic Bounce pressure to keep Rocks off.
 
What do you guys think of this combo I thought of.... Stealth rock, iron head, and red card? If anything it can be annoying. And does anyone know which Pokémon would be best used for this?
 
People of Smogon, a new age is about to begin in the OU metagame. There has been discovered a new form of stall. This new form of stall is so powerfull that it counters regular stall teams by outstalling them. This new form of stall takes stall to a whole new level and shall henceforth by called "super stall" in this post. Super stall requires a few things:
- Courage
- Manliness (sorry ladies, but you better try something more ladylike like hyper offense)
- Bravery
- Intelligence

Most stall teams have a fatal flaw: That is they need PP to keep recovering enough HP. PP is a finite resource which can be depleted in a war of stall. This makes normal stall a strategy for the transient. Super stall gets around this issue by utilizing tactics or strategies that allow him to get infinite HP, often in addition to infinite PP!

Super stall method examples:
- Regenerator
- Poison Heal
- Imposter

Here is some additional advice:
- Make sure to have good protection against entry hazards, Mega Sableye together with some entry hazard remover can prove to be very useful.
- Have a Pokemon capable of utilizing the move Stealth Rock is recommended to help prevent the opponent from stalling you out by switching.
- Since opposing normal stall teams often carry Leftovers or Black Sludge and since those items allow the opponent to recover HP without draining their PP, Carry Knock Off on your team.

Here is an example of a super stall team:

Sableye (M) @ Sablenite
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Knock Off
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Foul Play

Alomomola (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 36 HP / 220 Def / 252 SDef
Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Wish
- Knock Off
- Scald
- Toxic

Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SDef
IVs: 0 Atk
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Wish
- Soft-Boiled
- Seismic Toss
- Heal Bell

Skarmory (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SDef
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Defog
- Stealth Rock
- Roost
- Whirlwind

Amoonguss (M) @ Black Sludge
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 168 Def / 92 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Spore
- Giga Drain
- Clear Smog
- Foul Play

Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Transform
And here is an example of how to use it:
https://paste.ee/p/UobGh

I am aware that with only 623 turns this can hardly be called a stallwar. However note that both players still had 6 Pokemon left and that it ended prematurely because one of the players disconnected and timed out.
And even though this battle was very short, it did demonstrate how effective super stall can be against regular stall.
 
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Asek

Genious to some... retard to most
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been theorymonning in victory road about volcanion + have played a few games with it. Some users were making a comparison to heatran and I think it is the closest thing we have seen to volcanion in OU. There are a lot of paralells betwen the two, with both having relatively good defensive typings hindered specifically by weaknesses to 2 very common offensive types, abilities giving an additional immunity, as well as very good SpA stat. Volcanion trades heatrans better defensive typing however for a weakness to SR, better dual STAB and a plain rediculous move in Steam Eruption. Given that Hydro Pump is already a top tier offensive move, a strictly better Hydro Pump is bound to at least generate interest in a mon w. 600 BST, and so far I think volcanion is delivering on my expectations at least. I'm currently using a spread of 106HP / 252 SpA / 150Spd Modest on a specs set. EV'd speed to the point where I'd beat 8 Spd Rotom-W, outspeeds all non jolly azumarill, and I'm a sucker for investing in bulk + didnt really care about outspeeding much more. Volcanion has really nice bulk especially physcial ; investing in it is well worth it

As for team support : I think hazard removal is really nice here. The dream may be to switch volc into a water move to recover the sr damage, but thats more than likely not going to happen within a match situation. Given Volcanions low speed its relatively easy to force out if a Landorus / Chomper comes in post kill / on a double switch, and if volc's gonna come in multiple times in a match I feel like a way to remove hazards is kind of nessecary. I've found starmie to be ok so far in testing, although it doesnt really help remove water types that stop steam eruption spam, it provides the rapid spin support + checks grounds + dragons, and 2 powerful offensive waters within one team can overwhelm most teams answers to the other. From a pure theory point of view : skarmory seems good on paper. Being able to switch into non FB chomp, exca and lando, skarm can come into these mons if they come into volca and defog or phaze these mons if they boosted on the switch. I'm really liking volt turn with volca as well ; if volc gets a free turn that huge and you can try to create those free turns through VoltTurning. Double switching works as well!

To pose a question to people who play more than I; is anybody using a non specs variant of Volcanion? Interested to hear what people are testing considering all the hypes around specs, but I think theres some room to be creative here.
 
I tried using a physically defensive set with Steam Euption, Flamethrower, Toxic and Haze. It did pretty well, but needed a Wish passer due to no reliable recovery. I used Wish Clefable, as Chansey kills all momentum.
 
Volcanion @ Assault Vest
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flame Charge
- Steam Eruption
- Fire Blast
- Sludge Wave

I call this set Vestuvius. It has solid bulk with the Assault Vest and can become a nice cleaner with Flame Charge, allowing you to outspeed things such as Tornadus and Weavile after a single boost. Steam Eruption and Fire Blast are needed as powerful STAB's (don't run Flamethrower as the extra power is needed when you don't boost your SpA). Sludge Wave hits things such as Altaria and Azumarill that resist your STAB attacks.
Some good pairings would be Grass/Electric types to get rid of Water types that can avoid being 2HKO'ed. Mega Manectric or Serperior would be good fits. Spikes would go well as you weaken the grounded Pokemon to be cleaned up by Volcanion.
 
One thing I'm surprised that no one's commented on yet. Mega Altaria and Volcanion are great teammates. Specs Volcanion (best set IMO) can KO just about all the Pokémon that DD Altaria struggles with - Scizor, Skarmory, Ferrothorn - and switch in on them without too much problems. They get pretty good synergy as well: Volcanion resists Ice, Steel and Fairy moves, Altaria resists Electric ones and pre mega is immune to Ground ones.
 
TBH, I'm finding the current state of the meta incredibly boring.

It seems like too many middlingly strong threats since the start of the generation (Mega Mawile, Aegislash, Lando-T, Greninja and Hoopa-U) have all been banned, as well as easy checks to a variety of pokemon (Gothitelle). This has lead to things like Clefable now being S rank, which it wouldn't be if any one of these strong viable steel threats or strong threats that could run poison coverage due to their natural strength or strength of their STABs was still in place.

We now have a situation where Clefable is an extremely negative influence on the tier, which it needn't have been if there was just one thing to keep it in check. Clefable is great against stall (SR against Mega Sableye), great against offense (Unaware) and an easy enough win-con without any effort (CM variants against with either ability). It's quite frankly nuts that a 252+ Atk Lando EQ can't readily 2HKO this thing - having both STAB and a premier attack score - and even 252+ Scizor has difficulty without an item.

The things that can combat it? Strong steel types run the risk of switching into an occasional Flamethrower as well as facing easy trapping from the likes of Magnezone and Dugtrio, strong special types (and this isn't without mentioning that Clefable already has decent SpDef) face decent special walls or pretty much anything facing an AV. It can easily get a TWave against most mons, and as I said it even gives M-Sableye a hard time. You have the constant mind-games of whether it's running Unaware or Magic Guard - which you have to scope for in a way you really don't for the vast majority of sets. The pressure is massive, but it needn't have been if the numerous bans hadn't been put in place.

Overall, this has all lead to extremely samey stall and offense teams, with only balance presenting some variety. I think there really needs to be many more reviews in a generation of whether things should be banned, apart from things which were very evidently too strong (M-Salamence, M-Lucario).

And with Volcanion - it's not going to make a big splash. It'll be good mixed, and Steam Eruption is a massive pain to switch in on, but as powerful as Hoopa-U it ain't (which, for reasons I've mentioned, I didn't really care for its ban).

Role on Sun and Moon, and fun once again.
 

Martin

gamer boy
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Yeah, but no. There are a buttload of answers to Clefable and the fact that it is giving you so much trouble just proves you need to sort out your teambuilding. Its not even /hard/ to fit clef answers onto a team, and when I build I always just happen to cover it with one of my teammates. Seriously, this thing is disgustingly good (and for the record this thing didn't become S because those things were banned), but natural limitations of Clefable itself mean that it will not ever be broken. Clefable isn't the only thing which can avoid a 2HKO from a strong neutral hit, and it isn't the only thing good against every playstyle. The metagame isn't becoming stale at all (the amount of variation I see in teams is quite frankly huge, contrary to what you are saying in your post--which is a common misconception that comes from people either not looking hard enough or not playing enough before moaning with their tail between their legs--and if anything the meta has reached a state of true balance at this point due to there being nothing that is banworthy left (unless you want to dabble in that everlasting debate over Scald and Thunder Wave)), and by carrying Flamethrower it sacrifices the ability to take on other things--which is something you have failed to account for in your post. Its not hard to beat, and the scope of it is nowhere near as big as the things which were banned because they broke the game without particularly sacrificing much to beat checks to coverage set A--unlike Clefable--and this so-called "mindgame" between Magic Guard and Unaware diesn't exist, as either way the checks to the sets are the same and it can be cery easily checked by looking at things like hazard damage, sand damage, status damage etc. while also being given away by the set (the only good Unaware set is WishTect) and through team structure (unaware off of stall is bad).

Also the fact you are saying that we need to unban these blatantly broken and/or overcentralsing threats to check it entirely ignores the reason we ban things in the first place. The things which you mentioned were not simply "middlingly powerful" but rather they were so powerful that they literally broke the game, and "broken-checks-broken" is a really, really bad system to follow, and quite frankly it contradicts its own justification because in order to maintain it we would need to keep unbanning broken things to check these slightly-less-broken things until we reach a point where there is nothi g left to unban, and we do not base bans on what the metagame looks like without it, but rather on whether it is healthy for the metagame it is in. If something is broken afterwards, we ban that as well, rinse and repeat until the meta is balanced. Unlike with the unbanning strategy, there is a stopping point before everything is gone, and if anything the ORAS metagame has reached that point now.

I've prolly explained very poorly and/or missed something as I'm tired and a little hot-headed, so if someone else could add to this that'd be great.
 
After few games I see volcanion as worse keldeo. It just wants to do stuff like keldeo but it can't because does not have things that makes keldeo amazing.

Everybody knows Keldeo. You know that broken (of course "broken") mon which has everything you could ask for. Huge attack? Amazing stabs combination? Who even needs coverage when you have 120 or 110 power moves? What is counter what you have burns? And Keldeo is quick and has really good bulk, almost mew level bulk! On top of that is resistance to SR.

And what has volcanon? Well, some of this things, but is slower and weak to rocks. You have more bulk, but that does not make you tanky! I see people thinking that they can switch into like gardevoir and take hit. No, they can't. You can't switch in on many things. You are not counter to azu because knock off is so popular and so good. Gardevoir 2hko.


Maybe water absorb makes it better? Well it is decent, but all viable water types beside slowbro, suicune and ludicolo have solid moves to 2hko or even ohko you.

I see it puting work against teams like hippo-ferro-sableye or something with heatran but thaere is already keldeo which do this job and still resist rocks (which is EXTREMELY important against defensive teams) kick chansey ass even harder and has enough speed to be majjor thread against offence.
 

Mannat

Nuke Dynamax
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Will volcanion stall be a thing?
hopefully!!! I've got an experimental build that's worked pretty well so far, but it def still needs some fine tuning. It mainly focuses around the core of msab+volc then adding in all the stall staples and also having a fat rocker to open up a moveslot on chansey for toxic. It's kinda weak to mana tho :[.
 
So first...
There are a buttload of answers to Clefable and the fact that it is giving you so much trouble just proves you need to sort out your teambuilding. [...]

which is a common misconception that comes from people either not looking hard enough or not playing enough before moaning with their tail between their legs [...]

I've prolly explained very poorly and/or missed something as I'm tired and a little hot-headed, so if someone else could add to this that'd be great.
Attacking my poor team design when you don't know what teams I play, and saying you are worked up over this issue is not exactly a position of strength. I'm not coming here saying Clefable is broken lol just ban it, but already people start with mudslinging. (Given gamer boy's profile messages I put a strike through the last bit, and I'm grateful for him contacting me. However, I do think some of the rest of the first paragraph is endemic to this community as a whole so I'm leaving it as is): I have plenty of options against Clef on my current team - as someone who feels like it's dangerous to the meta would do. It would be nice if for once people couldn't tackle these arguments on face value while being emotionally detached and not just saying, "Git gud". Frankly, it's what bores me about the forums and wants me to wait for next gen - too much naysaying.

Some of your points I will cover in brief: "Clefable isn't S-Rank because of bannings." Yes it is, let any of Mega Mawile, Greninja, Aegislash, Mega Lucario or Lando-I back in the tier. Hoopa-U had a multitude of weaknesses, which meant it was easily counter-able, which meant Clefable was reasonably viable - any one of the others would be a huge knock to its current viability. It definitely, definitely, isn't S-rank without 4/5 of those key bannings - with even one of those guys back in the tier in wouldn't have the sway it does now.

"Huge variation" in the meta game - really give me replays for this. There's large balance variation, with the recent Slaking team that was successful and others think out of the box - but these teams largely succeed with their unusual options. Give me a "unique" stall team and I'll be pleased, give me even a truly unique HO team and I will be agog. I know there's nothing new under the sun it terms of powerful sets, but there's limiters like Clefable which make the situation a whole lot worse. I know, I know - a stale meta coming towards the end of its life, but still with different banning options we could have seen more variation IMHO.

Sure I didn't count for Flamethrower negating Clefable's options, it was strongly implicit with what I said but I will lay it out for you. The fact Clefable can run it as a meaty lure option and still be a perfectly viable set isn't great. It lures Scizor and Ferrothorn both of which, regardless of their SE moves, can't easily get a 2HKO.

The Clefable mind game is real. Against offense, Unaware Clef players know not to bring their Clefable out against hazards or sandstorm to show their hand - offense will surely pack an answer to Unaware Clef to have any success but obviously that's an entirely different answer to the relatively easy Magic Guard Clef. Clefable players know this, they exploit this - they can easily delimit offense by proxy. Likewise, a Magic Guard Clef can similarly not show its hand and let the opponent believe the player is acting cautious because their set is Unaware - only realising too late their Toxic-stalling chance is now useless. However I guess me and every one else who faces all these delimiting factors and pressures Clefable places on teams even in isolation should just "git gud".

Also the fact you are saying that we need to unban these blatantly broken and/or overcentralsing threats to check it entirely ignores the reason we ban things in the first place. The things which you mentioned were not simply "middlingly powerful" but rather they were so powerful that they literally broke the game, and "broken-checks-broken" is a really, really bad system to follow, and quite frankly it contradicts its own justification because in order to maintain it we would need to keep unbanning broken things to check these slightly-less-broken things until we reach a point where there is nothi g left to unban, and we do not base bans on what the metagame looks like without it, but rather on whether it is healthy for the metagame it is in. If something is broken afterwards, we ban that as well, rinse and repeat until the meta is balanced. Unlike with the unbanning strategy, there is a stopping point before everything is gone, and if anything the ORAS metagame has reached that point now.
Putting a pin in Clefable (which I do nightly as a voodoo ritual to play better in my games) - yes middlingly powerful is how I would describe many of these threats. Hoopa-U - slow speed and obvious weaknesses. Aegislash - slow speed but I can see where the mind games and huge stats become un-palatable. Mega-Mawile - slow speed plus defensive typing plus super effective against other fairies plus priority means bad I guess? Greninja - ultimate versatility yet no bulk, especially against priority - which it also has. Lando-I - a strong hitter with palatable bulk, yeah I guess I can see the ban here too but it wasn't crazy. What I fini surprising is the stall/offense ban ratio - with Deo-D, Gothitelle and M-Sableye being the only noticeable stall bans up for debate this gen.

Other stuff like Mega-Lucario/Salamence offered ridiculously strong worthy bad arguments (can both run mixed sets, the former can boost each mixed set while the latter has great bulk and a spammable STAB) but there's many reasons why the other stuff wasn't (notice I'm leaving out obvious arguments, like instantly bannable psuedo-banded M-Kangaskhan).

I think the community should really reconsider un-banning mons at the phase transition, e.g X/Y to ORAS. Would people have cared about Deo-D banning with M-Sableye? I really don't think so, I think there's too little attention payed to these play shifts.

EDIT 2: As mentioned, gamer boy sent a profile post through apologising for rude responses, being overly heated due to another issue - which was greatly appreciated. However, for prosperity, I keeping the post as is - I still think the mudslinging and unpleasantness around here is pretty much intolerable and the arguments on both sides were pretty valid.
 
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I can go into very long detail why each of those things you mentioned as something we should even entertain of testing back in is a horrendous idea jojo but I'm not as I know this "discussion" is gonna end up nowhere and it's not a suspect discussion to begin with. I don't mind if you guys want to debate but reading the Clefable is busted notion that gets thrown around all the time is so tiring and maybe it's time people stomach the fact top tier threats exist and you have to prepare for them. Look at the recent Hoopa-U suspect that was so incredibly close with a community that loves the idea that a suspect indicates that it will always be banned.
I think the community should really reconsider un-banning mons at the phase transition, e.g X/Y to ORAS. Would people have cared about Deo-D banning with M-Sableye? I really don't think so, I think there's too little attention payed to these play shifts.
Idk whether to argue this or feel insulted as if we don't give a shit in a position that everyday is becoming more thankless as the meta progresses and complaints that we have top tier threats exist and therefore the implication it should be banned but ok. So yeah I'm gonna bow out of this conversation and view this thread from afar with incoming disappointment. And no, that's not mudslinging, that's just what these discussions always come to seeing as how we're paying "so little attention". Good grief.
 
Uhm, let's not compare apples to oranges. . . I think there are some VERY clear differences in Keld and Volcanion. Yea, Keld has Secret Sword, and speed over Volc, which, is VERY nice, don't get me wrong. However, Volc has both of kelds water STABs wrapped into one ridiculous move. It also has significantly better coverage capable of dealing with Fairies thanks to Sludge Wave. Also, you're underselling Volc's bulk and all that it entails. Its bulk is really nice 80/120/90 is REMARKABLE, also Water/Fire typing resists SO many key types. Being immune to Will-o-Wisp and water moves, most importantly Scald is redonk, *4 resistance to ice, Fire, and Steel. It's also a pretty awesome fairy switch in. I'm not going to go into EVERYTHING that its typing gives it, but there are plenty of big threats that Keld cannot come in on that Volc can.
 
Uhm, let's not compare apples to oranges. . . I think there are some VERY clear differences in Keld and Volcanion. Yea, Keld has Secret Sword, and speed over Volc, which, is VERY nice, don't get me wrong. However, Volc has both of kelds water STABs wrapped into one ridiculous move. It also has significantly better coverage capable of dealing with Fairies thanks to Sludge Wave. Also, you're underselling Volc's bulk and all that it entails. Its bulk is really nice 80/120/90 is REMARKABLE, also Water/Fire typing resists SO many key types. Being immune to Will-o-Wisp and water moves, most importantly Scald is redonk, *4 resistance to ice, Fire, and Steel. It's also a pretty awesome fairy switch in. I'm not going to go into EVERYTHING that its typing gives it, but there are plenty of big threats that Keld cannot come in on that Volc can.
How it is fairy switch in when it only switch in clef? Specs sylveon blow this thing, gardevoir 2hko and azu still has knock off? Like it couners one fairy in tier. ONE!

Yeah, it resist things or two, but most you gotta be sure about your prediction when ypu switch in on scald or whisp because most whisp/scald users have nice moves to hit it hard or knock off specs. Steel types, ice types and fire types also has moves to hit it. And due to low speed volcanion is dead when you predict move wrong.

I can see it as intresting mon with mega sableye and that would be probably it best partner. It just need this rocks away so bad while it can countet clef. I feel like balance with sableye could be amazing! But on bo i can't really see it as wallbreaker when there is keldeo around.
 
Idk whether to argue this or feel insulted as if we don't give a shit in a position that everyday is becoming more thankless as the meta progresses and complaints that we have top tier threats exist and therefore the implication it should be banned but ok. So yeah I'm gonna bow out of this conversation and view this thread from afar with incoming disappointment. And no, that's not mudslinging, that's just what these discussions always come to seeing as how we're paying "so little attention". Good grief.
I think this was a childish response, even from a moderator. You took the "little attention" route as a personal/council insult - which is ridiculous in the first place as to take insult from that is to imply the council is entirely infallible and that the average player's opinions means nothing. Sorry if "too little attention" wasn't prestigious enough for you to feel validated from the phrasing - next time I'll consider my words more carefully even when I'm being perfectly articulate and raising legitimate concerns from the fanbase without being rude. Please delete my insubordinate response as necessary to assuage your ego, but do know this has been screen-shotted.

What I was going to say to your first paragraph before I read that trite ridiculousness was:
I can go into very long detail why each of those things you mentioned as something we should even entertain of testing back in is a horrendous idea jojo but I'm not as I know this "discussion" is gonna end up nowhere and it's not a suspect discussion to begin with. I don't mind if you guys want to debate but reading the Clefable is busted notion that gets thrown around all the time is so tiring and maybe it's time people stomach the fact top tier threats exist and you have to prepare for them. Look at the recent Hoopa-U suspect that was so incredibly close with a community that loves the idea that a suspect indicates that it will always be banned.
I'm fine with the idea of top tier threats, and from my post I realise that Clefable is a current top tier threat. And I do understand you guys are doing your best to encourage balance with the ban system. However shifts occur in each vote, especially from when new games are released mid-gen as they always are and these votes are cleaving closer and closer to the 50% mark which means on a vote that boils down to the offense/defense paradigm you're not satisfiying those just under 50%. And this isn't taking into account whether, with different considerations, some of those votes may be different with the aforementioned mid-generational shift.

I do realise that everything was banned for a reason, and yet I'm just pointing out that over the course of a generation things change. I think the point I mentioned which you quoted was a rather hilarious one to get het up about, as there's an obvious through-line with the argument that M-Sableye when it was released would have imposed a natural decrease in usage of Deo-D rather than the artificial one imposed by a ban. From the shift, Deo-D's usage can have dropped to normal levels - but we'll never know because it was banned.

Gods among us retesting by select groups, obviously.
 
I think this was a childish response, even from a moderator. You took the "little attention" route as a personal/council insult - which is ridiculous in the first place as to take insult from that is to imply the council is entirely infallible and that the average player's opinions means nothing. Sorry if "too little attention" wasn't prestigious enough for you to feel validated from the phrasing - next time I'll consider my words more carefully even when I'm being perfectly articulate and raising legitimate concerns from the fanbase without being rude. Please delete my insubordinate response as necessary to assuage your ego, but do know this has been screen-shotted.
Yes I took that as an insult because everytime a suspect takes place or a complaint happens it's attributed to the OU Council under the premise we sit around and do jack shit. No saying "I don't know whether to argue this" is far from childish because I read the entirety of your post while you tried to explain in some generic broad detail why anything we've banned has arguments for being a positive reinforcement to the tier. So excuse me if I came off childish to your response that made me facepalm a little bit when you claimed Landorus "wasn't crazy". The irony of ego is amusing when you had to throw out the antic of screen-shotting a post that I had to address because it just sounds absolutely ridiculous no matter what tone you assume is articulated in a mature way. Let's call that point a stalemate because you're in no higher realm of maturity with that equally snarky response lol but sure thing.
I'm fine with the idea of top tier threats, and from my post I realise that Clefable is a current top tier threat. And I do understand you guys are doing your best to encourage balance with the ban system. However shifts occur in each vote, especially from when new games are released mid-gen as they always are and these votes are cleaving closer and closer to the 50% mark which means on a vote that boils down to the offense/defense paradigm you're not satisfiying those just under 50%. And this isn't taking into account whether, with different considerations, some of those votes may be different with the aforementioned mid-generational shift.
How is that a problem that we don't satisfy those under the presumed 50% benchmark. With the tiering system in its current system in absolute disarray because it only requires a hypocritical ladder requisite to obtain voting rights in tiering systems that put more emphasis and value on tournament play to begin with? Please elaborate how we provide a venue for you to voice your opinion , no matter if you care about OU what so ever, and all of a sudden because there is no united opinion on the matter it's all of a sudden not appeasing to those that don't get their way? You do realize that every single ban thus far was a result of a meta shift correct especially noticeable in this generation where it took around 2 years for Landorus to actually get the boot as a result of a combination of multiple bans and meta-game shifts. Also the Aegislash re-test taught us one thing in that people are not open to re-tests and don't want to engage in adding more higher caliber threats to just to cover what is an assumption of an issue (in your case Clefable). This point is pretty applicable to about anything we would re-test. I honestly doubt bringing stuff back down is going to foster better results for the tier. Out of all the things we can do and try to do for the betterment tier this seems like a flawed idea.
I do realise that everything was banned for a reason, and yet I'm just pointing out that over the course of a generation things change. I think the point I mentioned which you quoted was a rather hilarious one to get het up about, as there's an obvious through-line with the argument that M-Sableye when it was released would have imposed a natural decrease in usage of Deo-D rather than the artificial one imposed by a ban. From the shift, Deo-D's usage can have dropped to normal levels - but we'll never know because it was banned.
I can't tell by your join date or w/e but have you actually played a meta-game with Deoxys in it? Serious question because in a meta-game that progressed more towards a state with emphasis on hazards and funnily enough one huge reason Clefable is successful is due to its anti-hazard traits and capitalizing on said hazards, I'm failing to see the line where re-testing Deoxys is a good idea for the sake of a tier where we try to entertain high level competition in the perfect world. I don't know why people use M-Sableye as the justification that Deoxys would be ok. I mean....really?!? So Deoxys usage would all of a sudden be omitted due to M-Sableye and we just disregard that the M-Sableye user can also use Deoxys. I'm not sure about you but on top of the point about Clefable, centralizing the tier around Spikes through Deoxys usage, and putting more focused emphasis on hazards where do I sit back and say "wow that's a good idea".

Yes it's banned and for many more reasons than the ones stated above. You're going to have to use an insanely good argument to re-test something when the first re-test in Aegislash didn't work at all under the premise it would balance the tier out through its threat control among other issues a re-test in OU right now is gonna have. Why are we going to risk re-testing something for the potential of it to be an absolute disaster in combination with how our suspect system works now? You don't have to care at all about the betterment of OU other than showing ladder competency and you can get a pass to vote for our meta-games. Your intentions can be a polar opposite to helping the tier and you won't be punished or scrutinized because you don't even have to voice your opinion. Enlighten me how a re-test of anything will be better for the tier I'm genuinely intrigued at this point.

Gods among us retesting by select groups, obviously.
No I don't know what you mean by obviously? Do I just pick whoever to test these things and go off of them and say "looks good ha" disregarding that bottom 50% you put emphasis on earlier? Maybe some clarification on how we select the pool of players as if we already don't put a heavy emphasis on utilizing a small pool of people with the way suspect votes are held would be nice.
 
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