Resource ORAS OU Metagame Discussion

[Flamer]

Approved by AM
Original thread by alexwolf

Here you can talk about anything ORAS OU related, new mons you've been trying out, recent metagame trends, Pokemon you feel need some love, cool sets, basically anything bar a few exceptions, which are below.

Rules

• This is a thread for ORAS OU only, discussion of unrelated things to OU or Pokemon in general does not belong here.
• No discussing smogon's tiering methods, Pokemon you think they should suspect or anything else on those lines doing so will likely receive you some form of punishment and make you look like an idiot.
• Keep it civil. Try to avoid berating other users for their opinions, unless they're spouting absolute nonsense like how viable Pikachu is or not following the other rules.

At the behest of the mods the purpose of this thread is expanding so that its a discussion of all ORAS OU. Playstyles no longer have their own separate threads and will instead be discussed here.

 

[Norne]

I'm really enjoying speed creep 101+ reflect type starmie in this metagame, I know it might seem unorthodox but it surprisingly delivers well with just 76 Def investment against most pursuit users.


Anyone got some opinions on bulky starmie utility on OU as of latter?

 

[Blazikarados]

The first thing that I want to say is "Thank fucking Arceus that Geopass/Scolipass/Quiverpass/fucboipass/Smashpass is gone."

I'm really enjoying speed creep 101+ reflect type starmie in this metagame, I know it might seem unorthodox but it surprisingly delivers well with just 76 Def investment against most pursuit users.

Anyone got some opinions on bulky starmie utility on OU as of latter?

Defensive Starmie in general is a really reliable spinner in general in this meta, being really fast and unlike excadrill, not outsped and destroyed by things like keldeo. Your set, of course, is slower than Keldeo but due Starmie's typing Keldeo can't really touch it barring HP Bug/Electric.

 

[Norne]

The first thing that I want to say is "Thank fucking Arceus that Geopass/Scolipass/Quiverpass/fucboipass/Smashpass is gone."



Defensive Starmie in general is a really reliable spinner in general in this meta, being really fast and unlike excadrill, not outsped and destroyed by things like keldeo. Your set, of course, is slower than Keldeo but due Starmie's typing Keldeo can't really touch it barring HP Bug/Electric.

Reflect type and the rest of the evs dropped on spdef allow it to stomach scarf variants, lo variants do pose a treat but end up losing the war as long as lefties are a factor, leftover burn fishing Keldeo are still annoying but dealt reliably by a couple of Pokémon that appreciate pursuit trap gone like mega latias, mew or that in general prefer the common pursuit trappers like scarf tar and bisharp gone as serperior.

But losing the speed tie against Keldeo is indeed a drag.

 

[FootHead58]

Who do you guys think are the top 3 Pokemon for each play style?

 

[SketchUp]

Who do you guys think are the top 3 Pokemon for each play style?

That is pretty hard to say especially because even when you divide teams into seperate playstles, there are still a lot of different ways to build teams. For example offensive teams can go voltturn, weather offense, hazards stack, spam (birdspam / darkspam) supporting one sweeper etc. When talking in general I'd make this list

Stall

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- Kinda obvious but Chansey provides so much support for stall teams in not only checking dangerous wallbreakers like Charizard-Y and Mega Gardevoir, but also spreading status and laying rocks

- A bulky magic bounce user is just so good for stall teams. It checks some big threats like Mega Medicham and Gengar and has control in many matches because of magic bounce + recovery. Biggest downside is that you can't use a mega like Scizor or Venusaur and that you give most fairies a free switch in.

Semistall

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- Tornadus-T has good speed, bulk to take on pokemon like gengar and keldeo and an amazing movepool for semi-stall teams. Also has Regenerator to form cores with Slowbro / Amoonguss

- Extremely splashable and can perform many roles like checking Manaphy and SD Garchomp, Wishpassing, Stallbreaking (CM MG) lay rocks and just be a blanket check to many pokemon like Kyurem-B / Latios / Mega Lopunny.

- Tied with Mega Sableye. Talonflame is such an amazing pokemon and can work amazingly with the support the 5 teammates provide. Besides checking Charizard-Y, Volcarona, Serperior, Mega Gallade and Clefable to name a few, Talonflame can also break defensive cores with Tauntwisp or be a bulky setupsweeper with Bulk Up

Balance

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Balance as a playstyle is so big that there isn't really a top 3. Some pokemon that stand out are Clefable, Talonflame, Hippowdon, Keldeo, Jirachi and Latios

Bulky Offense

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Not only are these pokemon pretty versatile (Keldeo can run scarf, subcm, specs, lo resttalk. Scizor can run offensive and bulky sd. Heatran can run scarf, offensive balloon, lure sets. Latios can defog, lure with hp fire or earthquake, calm mind) but they also check many big threats to bulky offense. Think of Mega Lopunny, Talonflame, Weavile and Charizard-Y. Bulky offensive is about having bulky offensive pokemon that support the sweepers against other powerful wallbreakers (example: a keldeo supports serperior because it beats weavile) This is why I think the bulky offensive pokemon are the most important part for bulky offense and not the sweepers

Hyper Offense

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- Bisharp is almost a must on HO simply because it is able to threaten many teams, stops defog in many situations and it's one of the most splashable sweepers for HO.

- Azelf is definitely the best suicide lead for HO. A fast taunt to stop other leads, explosion to gain momentum, fire blast to hit ferro, skill swap to set hazards against sableye and diancie and of course Stealth Rock. Protect is also pretty cool to set rocks against Lopunny)

- I can't explain how useful Thundurus is. It can stop sweepers with prankster t-wave, it can lure in many pokemon (chansey with a mixed set, hippow with gknot, venusaur with psychic/hpflying), it can sweep slower teams with nasty plot, it can break bulky cores with taunt. It has 2 amazing abilties and 1 amazing movepool.

Edit: So I made this reply to a post that just got deleted ;_;

AM Edit: Lol I'll let this slide

 

[AM]

I don't really agree with Azelf being the best rocker on HO based on Sketchups post up above me. I think Garchomp takes that spot of the rocker on offense due to its ability to sport both an offensive and defensive utility either in one package or independently depending on the team build. Its implementation on offense is so easy as it has consistent synergy with a lot of components of various playstyle, such as Heatran on balance and M-Gardevoir on offense as two examples.

 

[bludz]

Yeah I'm not a huge fan of Azelf in general. I mean it does what it is supposed to do and very well but you're essentially gambling on the fact that your opponent will never remove rocks and will have trouble getting theirs up against you. This can be worth an entire team slot if you're able to build the team properly but in practice just doesn't always work. Garchomp gets up Stealth Rock against a variety of physical attackers and isn't a suicide lead so I agree there.

I also think Azumarill is a mon that you'll see very frequently on Hyper Offense since BD is a pretty big threat and CB cleans well while both check a ton of threats to offense in general. For Balance I'd say Mega Scizor and Mega Venusaur are the leading Megas atm with Altaria still being solid of course.

I think in the current metagame that Life Orb Tornadus-T is extremely deadly. I mean its checks are already somewhat limited in terms of keeping similar longevity and then you consider that one of the best ones in Rotom-Wash just isn't as good right now. Pair that with most people preparing for AV Torn-T if anything and the number of coverage moves that people don't actually utilize like Grass Knot and Iron Tail, this thing can be a really potent wallbreaker that doesn't lose momentum like Specs or Band users while still retaining a great speed tier.

 

[GotR]

I haven't quite figured out why Mega-Pinsir has dropped to BL. It's still a monster as long as you removes its checks, but it's been ages since I've seen one...

 

[Flamer]

I haven't quite figured out why Mega-Pinsir has dropped to BL. It's still a monster as long as you removes its checks, but it's been ages since I've seen one...

Funny you mention this, -Clone- and I were just discussing this today. Pinsir is still pretty good and a lot of the current aspects of the metagame benefit it significantly. With mons like Hoopa and Lopunny on heaps of teams, as well as the fact that rotom-w is far less common and most people run rockychomp instead of defensive landorus-t, who is promptly OHKOed at +2, its not hard to clean offense with quick attack. It still struggles against faster mons who can tank the +2 quick attack and suffers from a lot of things it did before but definitely underrated atm.

 

[GotR]

Funny you mention this, -Clone- and I were just discussing this today. Pinsir is still pretty good and a lot of the current aspects of the metagame benefit it significantly. With mons like Hoopa and Lopunny on heaps of teams, as well as the fact that rotom-w is far less common and most people run rockychomp instead of defensive landorus-t, who is promptly OHKOed at +2, its not hard to clean offense with quick attack. It still struggles against faster mons who can tank the +2 quick attack and suffers from a lot of things it did before but definitely underrated atm.

That was exactly what I meant; nothing bad has happened to it since XY and the meta is possibly even more favourable to it now than it was back in the old Pinsir + Tflame birdspam days, and its sitting in BL for some reason.

Must have something to do with 'shiny new toys' syndrome.

Maybe more people will start using it soon...
Damn it shouldn't have said anything XD

 

[DarkNostalgia]

Yeah could be because of "new toy syndrome".
Another thing would be new Megas such as Mega Diancie and Mega Metagross that do dampen its viability somewhat, and the influx of Tornadus-T, Weavile, and Mega Charizard X which can check it when not boosted. I agree that Mega Pinsir has been benefited quite a bit due to recent metagame changes and hopefully it could see some more viability.

 

[SketchUp]

Stopping opposing hazards setters to lay down rocks is something Garchomp fails to do and this is one of the main reasons why I think Azelf is a better setter than Garchomp. Especially when you use pokemon like Thundurus, Mega Altaria and Kyurem-B, rocks can be a big issue for your main wallbreaker / sweeper. Sure Defog and Rapid Spin exist, but it is limited to Latios, Starmie and Excadrill and using one of these moves takes away all the momentum you have. Preventing the rocks early game is why I think Azelf > Garchomp as suicide lead.

About Pinsir, the problem isn't that ORAS brought new checks/counters to Pinsir. The only mega's that check MPinsir that were released in ORAS are Metagross, Diancie [only revenge kills] and Sableye [very shaky]. It's just that the current metagame trends are really unfavourable for Mega Pinsir. Hippowdon, Tankchomp, Skarmory, Talonflame and Scarftar are some of the pokemon that are really common at the moment and they can all either hard check or revenge kill Mega Pinsir. Also has more difficulties setting up in the current metagame as there are a lot of pokemon that force it out when unboosted compared to XY where it could set up a SD against half the metagame.
That's btw the reason why it dropped in viability (A+ ---> A-) The reason it dropped in usage (OU ---> BL) is that ORAS gave OU more than 10 viable mega evolutions. There are 17 mega evolutions in the S and A ranks only, compared to 12 in XY. 26 when added B ranks in ORAS and only 15 in XY. There are a lot more viable mega's but you still can only use one mega per team.

 

[bludz]

Viable IMO when you consider its speed tier wasn't really helping it sweep too much anyway and the extra power helps it wallbreak.

BTW SketchUp, my issue with Azelf is that it IS a suicide lead and actually provides almost no utility outside of the first few turns. Yes it gets up rocks turn 1 more reliably than Chomp but its impact over the course of the match is essentially mitigated if the opponent can set up their rocks early without being overwhelmed by offensive pressure (which is one of the things that Chomp does so well). Also Chomp actually provides an answer to a ton of Mons that HO tends to dislike switching into (lop, meta, talon, bisharp).

 

[Elentiya]

Yeah could be because of "new toy syndrome".
Another thing would be new Megas such as Mega Diancie and Mega Metagross that do dampen its viability somewhat, and the influx of Tornadus-T, Weavile, and Mega Charizard X which can check it when not boosted. I agree that Mega Pinsir has been benefited quite a bit due to recent metagame changes and hopefully it could see some more viability.

Yes, I've found a lot of success recently with a hyper offense team I created that utilizes the Pinsir + Talonflame core. Mostly I have trouble with teams that manage to set up hazards like Stealth Rock, because I have no hazard removers and don't intend on having one because it reduces the momentum of the team so much. However, I use a suicide Azelf lead that usually is able to set up SR without the other team being able to, at least in the early game. The thing is, even without a Swords Dance boost Mega Pinsir is incredibly powerful, and with Aerilate, Return can do a ridiculous amount of damage even when hitting neutrally. I've literally swept entire teams with Mega Pinsir, so it being in BL right now is kind of confusing haha.

On the subject of Mega Pinsir, how good do you think an Adamant nature would be on Pinsir? There's not much in the 309-339 speed tier that Pinsir really needs to outspeed IMO bar things like Offensive Garchomp, Charizard X and Y (which can't switch in on +2), and maybe max speed Manaphy. Usually I find that I use Mega Pinsir as a wallbreaker more than a sweeper, and it has a better chance of KOing a few threats.

A random (and maybe bad, idk) example:

+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 318-375 (83.2 - 98.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 289-342 (75.6 - 89.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Interesting, I didn't really think of running Adamant on my Pinsir because I just figured I would try to take advantage of keeping it higher in its speed tier, as its Attack is already really high. That's also a fairly interesting stat, if that's true then there are probably other examples of OHKOs that wouldn't be possible if Jolly is being used. Not completely sure actually, I'll try switching to Adamant with my team and see how it does.

 

[Chatter]

So ... been using Zoroark. Them mind games are real. You might need to build your team quite differently but if you use it right, your opponent usually starts frothing at the mouth since they don't know if it's the Zoro or not. Yay, gimmick mons!

 

[SketchUp]

AoA seems viable, especially because you can run both CC and EQ, so you will be able to hit electric types, rotom-w and metagross as the same time. There are not really many other options you can run besides Return / CC / EQ / Quick Attack on an AoA set. Double-Edge can't be used with Quick Attack and Thrash locks you into the move when Returns power drop still gets the most important OHKOs / 2HKOs. Stone Edge only hits Zapdos and Knock Off only helps when paired up with Magnezone against a Shed Shell Skarmory / Ferrothorn, both are pretty uncommon. SubFlail is maybe an option with Quick Attack or dual coverage (CC+EQ) but outside of that AoA is limited to Return / CC / EQ / QA. Personally I would always go Jolly, though having a chance to 2hko mixed Hippowdon is pretty nice.

 

[Elentiya]

So ... been using Zoroark. Them mind games are real. You might need to build your team quite differently but if you use it right, your opponent usually starts frothing at the mouth since they don't know if it's the Zoro or not. Yay, gimmick mons!

Zoroark is really interesting, but unfortunately it suffers from having poor defensive stats so the mind games last about one or two turns until the opponent knows what's going on. Because of that, it's kind of hard to really take advantage of the mind games Zoroark offers. With the right support and team though, it could do some interesting things.

AoA seems viable, especially because you can run both CC and EQ, so you will be able to hit electric types, rotom-w and metagross as the same time. There are not really many other options you can run besides Return / CC / EQ / Quick Attack on an AoA set. Double-Edge can't be used with Quick Attack and Thrash locks you into the move when Returns power drop still gets the most important OHKOs / 2HKOs. Stone Edge only hits Zapdos and Knock Off only helps when paired up with Magnezone against a Shed Shell Skarmory / Ferrothorn, both are pretty uncommon. SubFlail is maybe an option with Quick Attack or dual coverage (CC+EQ) but outside of that AoA is limited to Return / CC / EQ / QA. Personally I would always go Jolly, though having a chance to 2hko mixed Hippowdon is pretty nice.

AoA seems alright, but I still think a Swords Dance set is generally better because a boosted Aerilate Return is just so powerful. Though you get more coverage with an AoA set, you just get so much more raw power with an SD set, that in most cases you'd want to go with that. Even a boosted Quick Attack does a lot of work. I just feel like that if you're going to use a Pokemon like Pinsir, you really want to take advantage of Swords Dance with it. Even if you don't get to use Swords Dance in a match, the mere threat of Pinsir using it causes problems for the other team. It definitely could be viable, but I just would rather use an SD set over it, for that extra power and ability to threaten.

 

[Exeggutive]

Ya mega Pinsir is a real threat. It's not too hard to prepare for since its weak to rocks and struggles with all of the fast flying resists around. But even though it's pretty easy to prepare for and check on offense, it can he annoying to a lot of prominent mons on offense with its strong priority. For balance it's a different story. If. Rocks are up, it's really hard to stop Pinsir since a lot of balance builds only have Rotom or SpeDef Skarm to handle an Adamant Pinsir. It's pretty low key and under the radar.


Professor Lamb
From experience, LO Analytic Starmie has fantastic synergy with Pinsir on HO. Starmie kills Garchomp, Diance, gets a big chunk off metagross, 2hkos Rotom W with analytic hydro pump+ psychic, and more importantly, has rapid spin. It's hard to handle and doesn't kill momentum. Try it out.

Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Psychic
- Rapid Spin

 

[Analytic]

+

This core dismantles a lot of HO teams. M-Manectric outspeeds almost the entire tier, this core's primary idea is for M-Manectric to Volt Switch on its checks such as the Lati twins, and then Pursuit-trap them with Weavile. Since the duo outspeed a lot of the metagame, cover each others' threats well, and gain a lot momentum, this makes them an absolute horror for HO teams to face. Considering how fast paced the metagame is right now, I feel like this core works wonders on the ladder

 

[Shadow_Sneak]

+

This core dismantles a lot of HO teams. M-Manectric outspeeds almost the entire tier, this core's primary idea is for M-Manectric to Volt Switch on its checks such as the Lati twins, and then Pursuit-trap them with Weavile. Since the duo outspeed a lot of the metagame, cover each others' threats well, and gain a lot momentum, this makes them an absolute horror for HO teams to face. Considering how fast paced the metagame is right now, I feel like this core works wonders on the ladder

I can agree with this these two do stop most ho's in their tracks, it takes out pretty much the most common ho hazard setters and mega man takes on klefki too who is probably the best spikes setter in the tier bar ferro who kills momentum and isn't seen on ho anyways. A great core I found to pair with this is ferrothorn, starmie and hippowdon. These two take on pretty much everything that core has a hard time with pretty much and this defensive backbone and essentially covers all of the bases of teambuilding (birdspam check etc.) On offense I like to pair it with a cs user who can out run higher or tied base speeds with mega manectric. (Mega lopunny mega aero etc.) Because those are pretty much the mons to beat along with mega bee I think that a scarf keldeo might pair nicely with these too if your using an ho team.

 

[SketchUp]

I don't think the metagame is that much more fast paced than before and the ''hoopa invalidates balance so everyone runs offense'' is a pretty big exaggeration. Not only is Hoopa beatable by pokemon that are good on balance (for example Skarmory with mixed defenses beats any Hoopa set without Dark Pulse, Focus Blast or HP Fire and judging by usage stats, you beat 25-30% of the Hoopa's) but I stll see balance / bulky offense the most often of all playstyles. Especially on the ladder where everyone is spamming Tankchomp + Skarmory or Mega Scizor balance.
If you really want to beat bulky offensive teams, look no further than double dance landorus-t. Sets up against many pokemon on BO like Excadrill, bulky scizor, metagross, garchomp (bar LO sets) AV Torn-T etc... Outside of Skarmory, most of Lando-Ts checks see very low usage and bulky offense is limited to priority from Azu / Weavile / Talon / Bish to get a boosted Lando down. SD Soft Sand Lando-T is also great against balance because its setup opportunities are even bigger (Clefable for example) and in some cases you don't even need a RP to sweep.

 

[FootHead58]

To add what you said about balance breakers, I find tail glow manaphy incredibly good at breaking balance teams.

 

[Blazikarados]

In terms of breaking balance with Hoopa-U, I've found the NP + 3 attacks set to be the most effective.

Often I find physical or mixed Hoopa isn't as good. Physical runs away from a good number of things given that almost all of Hoopa-U's physical attacks make contact (Hi Garchomp, hi ferrothorn) except Hyperspace Fury. Physical is unable to boost, either, and fears burns. You need coverage for Hippowdon (Grass Knot if you're running mixed), Ferrothorn (Fire Punch), Garchomp (HP Ice/Ice Punch), Psychic stab for Mega Venusaur, etc. You can't really cover everything with the 4 moveslots.

On the other hand, NP + 3 attacks can break through so much stuff effortlessly. You don't need coverage vs. Hippo, Garchomp, Venusaur, Ferro etc. when Dark Pulse has a good chance to 2HKO all of them. It's the difference between "I click a button and get a kill" and "I click the button and get a kill". It can still go "mixed" via Psyshock (which 2HKOs Chansey, good god) and because Special Hoopa mitigates the need for prediction a good amount, I feel that NP 3 attacks is the best Hoopa set.

 

[Flamer]

Yeah Special Hoopa-U is imo more effective as beaking bulky teams compared to physical. Burns really suck for physical Hoopa, effectively neutering its destructive capabilities and the physical sets are much more prone to being forced out (as hyperspace fury removes what little physical bulk Hoopa has left). With scarf, I prefer a mixed set just for more effective coverage though.