Ranks can't go any higher than the rank they are in the viability thread.
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Resource ORAS OU Sets Viability Rankings V3 - Thread Closed (See Post #147)
- Thread starter urban
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I think at this point people are starting to realize the effectiveness of a straight up SD Charizard X without Tailwind and I'd personally make it a separate set and put it in A+ or potentially S. Look at the Victim of the Week thread - nobody has posted a legit counter to this thing outside of Quagsire which loses to Outrage on the switch so yeah. Bulky Mega Altarias don't run a dragon move to OHKO in return and get 2HKO'd by +2 Flare Blitz.
Maybe add a screens set to Klefki and give it B+ / A- as well considering that is another viable set.
Maybe add a screens set to Klefki and give it B+ / A- as well considering that is another viable set.
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Been a while since I made an update. Sorry about that, been really busy with WCOP stuff lately.
Anyway, here's some updates I'm making right now. Much like the main VR thread, I feel like a lot of things have kind of settled for the moment, so there won't be many major shifts.
Changes/Additions:
Kyurem B:
Life Orb, A- to A
Choice Scarf, B+ to A-
Assault Vest, B+
Magnezone:
Choice Scarf, B+ to A-
Choice Specs, B to B+
Magnet Rise, B
Klefki
Dual Screens, B+
Charizard X
Swords Dance, A+
Jirachi
Expert Belt, B+
Y'all are free to discuss whatever you want. I'll try to be more active responding to suggestions and what not.
Edit: Gonna change the Baton Pass stuff as well.
Anyway, here's some updates I'm making right now. Much like the main VR thread, I feel like a lot of things have kind of settled for the moment, so there won't be many major shifts.
Changes/Additions:
Kyurem B:
Life Orb, A- to A
Choice Scarf, B+ to A-
Assault Vest, B+
Magnezone:
Choice Scarf, B+ to A-
Choice Specs, B to B+
Magnet Rise, B
Klefki
Dual Screens, B+
Charizard X
Swords Dance, A+
Jirachi
Expert Belt, B+
Y'all are free to discuss whatever you want. I'll try to be more active responding to suggestions and what not.
Edit: Gonna change the Baton Pass stuff as well.
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what is the difference between offensive and Expert Belt?
Offensive would be stuff in the vein of Twave/Iron Head. Ebelt sets are usually mixed, which is probably the biggest distinction.
T-wave slowbro is amazing, people are so prone to send in things like serp, gengar, zard y right into it before it boosts past their offensive presence that catching them with t-wave before setting up later is so easy.
AM someone told me you made Lo taunt Keldeo, what's the appeal in that? What does it beat? Isn't subcm better, or specs if you want to beat Clef
AM someone told me you made Lo taunt Keldeo, what's the appeal in that? What does it beat? Isn't subcm better, or specs if you want to beat Clef
Pretty sure I didn't make it lol.
You beat defensive cores and stop things like recovery.
So, I had some time to go through some of the rankings and make a list of things I want to change and/or things I want to hear thoughts on. Right now, I only have noms for S through A- ranks, but I'll get to the other ranks soon enough.
Okay, so here we go. Sorry in advance for long post. n_n
First off, I want to see Support Mega Altaria in A+ or maybe even A. This set originally found a niche on stall and balance teams, but those teams have better options to utilize for megas (stall has eye, balance has venu and sciz). Additionally, relegating M-Alt to a support role when it has such incredible offensive presence is silly, especially when we have stuff like Clefable who can fill that same support w/o taking up that mega slot. In the same vein, I could see Defensive Dragon Dance Mega Altaria moving down, but it does seem a lot more useful on the whole in that it can break fat teams with Roost + Refresh/Heal Bell.
Next, Bulky WoW Mega Charizard X should be in S. This set has the ability to wall entire teams, and I believe it to be almost as effective as offensive DD sets.
Assault Vest Bisharp is a relic of the past and has what seems like an extremely small niche in half-checking the Latis. I think the fact that I haven't seen this set in a while might be enough indication that it's time to remove the set.
I think that Offensive SR Garchomp is nearly equal in effectiveness to the tank set, especially when you consider options like Lum Berry, Yache Berry, and Roseli Berry to ease set up. Chomp's 102 speed tier has become somewhat relevant again with all of the base 100 wall breakers eating the tier. Also has a good bit of surprise factor as opponents are likely to assume it's the tank set on a lot of teams. Move to A+ imo.
Choice Scarf Excadrill should move down to B+. It's just far too exploitable with the crappy moves it gets locked into and the fact that things like tank chomp and hippowdon exist. I moved it up a while ago because M-Alt was kinda running the tier, and being able to revenge it at +1 was a valuable niche, but with Zard X being the dominate mega, I just don't see this set staying in A-.
Fast Support Heatran isn't as effective as it once was. It just needs all the bulk it can get to reliably fulfill a support role because it doesn't have recovery outside of leftovers. Plus, it's speed tier is kinda shit for an offensive support mon, so I could see a move down to A-. However, I'm on the fence about this one.
WCoP has highlighted the usefulness of Manaphy's Rain Dance + TG set, which is quite effective at dismantling bulkier teams. The reliability of the set is what puts it in A+ for me. Mana is blessed with great bulk, fantastic typing, and a movepool to boot, so you almost have to be able to hit it super effectively if your team is slow, and even then scald and it's 30% burn chance can put a damper on this too if something like ferro is your answer.
Haven't seen a Choice Band Talonflame in months. Talonflame just has better options to utilize - i.e. literally any other set. Rocks weakness and constant recoil weakness just make it worthless. I want to remove it.
Specially Defensive Mega Charizard Y lost a big target when Lando-I left, and Zard Y wants speed and special attack investment to do what it's best at: wall breaking. SpDef CharY sits in B+ right now. Should it go lower? Should it be removed?
Specially Defensive Rotom-W also just seems like a pointless set to me, especially considering that the defensive set can run some special defense if it needs to anyway. I want to remove this as well.
I think that the the rankings for Starmie's sets should be flipped. Defensive Starmie should move to A. Right now, defensive starmie is hands down the most reliable spinner in the tier. It's got an incredibly useful speed tier; a rather useful defensive typing; access to scald, twave, toxic, reflect type, coverage to boot; AND reliable recovery. Hands down mie's best set. It's going to A. That being said, Offensive Starmie should move down to A-. The offensive set is plagued by longevity issues due to LO recoil and susceptibility to hazards, and it often has to forgo recovery for coverage. Also, it's rather weak for an offensive mon unless it gets the analytic boost, but oftentimes mie spins on the switch, effectively nullifying any usefulness its ability may have had. Finally, it's suffers the same pursuit weakness that the defensive set has, but the defensive set actually has enough bulk to beat some pursuit trappers.
Scarf Tyranitar should move down to A-. Scarftar is just too slow and weak to warrant A rank in my opinion. It's also extremely predictable bar the choice between Fire Blast/Ice Beam. It also yields set up opportunities for a number of threatening mons no matter what move it gets locked into. Saving grace is good bulk paired with sand, but five turns is hardly enough for Excadrill to do much sweeping w/o sacking your TTar. The support set is significantly more useful with item options like chople berry and smooth rock, move options like stealth rock and thunder wave, and added bulk, all while still maintaining pursuit trapping utility. On a similar note, I'm not too confident in the position of Band Tyranitar in A-. Thoughts?
And my final nomination, SubSeed Serperior should be initially placed in B or B+. The set has a good amount of utility against a number of bulky teams, so I think it deserves its own ranking.
Okay, so that's it for now. Let me know if you have any thoughts. I'll take a look at lower ranks soon.
Okay, so here we go. Sorry in advance for long post. n_n
First off, I want to see Support Mega Altaria in A+ or maybe even A. This set originally found a niche on stall and balance teams, but those teams have better options to utilize for megas (stall has eye, balance has venu and sciz). Additionally, relegating M-Alt to a support role when it has such incredible offensive presence is silly, especially when we have stuff like Clefable who can fill that same support w/o taking up that mega slot. In the same vein, I could see Defensive Dragon Dance Mega Altaria moving down, but it does seem a lot more useful on the whole in that it can break fat teams with Roost + Refresh/Heal Bell.
Next, Bulky WoW Mega Charizard X should be in S. This set has the ability to wall entire teams, and I believe it to be almost as effective as offensive DD sets.
Assault Vest Bisharp is a relic of the past and has what seems like an extremely small niche in half-checking the Latis. I think the fact that I haven't seen this set in a while might be enough indication that it's time to remove the set.
I think that Offensive SR Garchomp is nearly equal in effectiveness to the tank set, especially when you consider options like Lum Berry, Yache Berry, and Roseli Berry to ease set up. Chomp's 102 speed tier has become somewhat relevant again with all of the base 100 wall breakers eating the tier. Also has a good bit of surprise factor as opponents are likely to assume it's the tank set on a lot of teams. Move to A+ imo.
Choice Scarf Excadrill should move down to B+. It's just far too exploitable with the crappy moves it gets locked into and the fact that things like tank chomp and hippowdon exist. I moved it up a while ago because M-Alt was kinda running the tier, and being able to revenge it at +1 was a valuable niche, but with Zard X being the dominate mega, I just don't see this set staying in A-.
Fast Support Heatran isn't as effective as it once was. It just needs all the bulk it can get to reliably fulfill a support role because it doesn't have recovery outside of leftovers. Plus, it's speed tier is kinda shit for an offensive support mon, so I could see a move down to A-. However, I'm on the fence about this one.
WCoP has highlighted the usefulness of Manaphy's Rain Dance + TG set, which is quite effective at dismantling bulkier teams. The reliability of the set is what puts it in A+ for me. Mana is blessed with great bulk, fantastic typing, and a movepool to boot, so you almost have to be able to hit it super effectively if your team is slow, and even then scald and it's 30% burn chance can put a damper on this too if something like ferro is your answer.
Haven't seen a Choice Band Talonflame in months. Talonflame just has better options to utilize - i.e. literally any other set. Rocks weakness and constant recoil weakness just make it worthless. I want to remove it.
Specially Defensive Mega Charizard Y lost a big target when Lando-I left, and Zard Y wants speed and special attack investment to do what it's best at: wall breaking. SpDef CharY sits in B+ right now. Should it go lower? Should it be removed?
Specially Defensive Rotom-W also just seems like a pointless set to me, especially considering that the defensive set can run some special defense if it needs to anyway. I want to remove this as well.
I think that the the rankings for Starmie's sets should be flipped. Defensive Starmie should move to A. Right now, defensive starmie is hands down the most reliable spinner in the tier. It's got an incredibly useful speed tier; a rather useful defensive typing; access to scald, twave, toxic, reflect type, coverage to boot; AND reliable recovery. Hands down mie's best set. It's going to A. That being said, Offensive Starmie should move down to A-. The offensive set is plagued by longevity issues due to LO recoil and susceptibility to hazards, and it often has to forgo recovery for coverage. Also, it's rather weak for an offensive mon unless it gets the analytic boost, but oftentimes mie spins on the switch, effectively nullifying any usefulness its ability may have had. Finally, it's suffers the same pursuit weakness that the defensive set has, but the defensive set actually has enough bulk to beat some pursuit trappers.
Scarf Tyranitar should move down to A-. Scarftar is just too slow and weak to warrant A rank in my opinion. It's also extremely predictable bar the choice between Fire Blast/Ice Beam. It also yields set up opportunities for a number of threatening mons no matter what move it gets locked into. Saving grace is good bulk paired with sand, but five turns is hardly enough for Excadrill to do much sweeping w/o sacking your TTar. The support set is significantly more useful with item options like chople berry and smooth rock, move options like stealth rock and thunder wave, and added bulk, all while still maintaining pursuit trapping utility. On a similar note, I'm not too confident in the position of Band Tyranitar in A-. Thoughts?
And my final nomination, SubSeed Serperior should be initially placed in B or B+. The set has a good amount of utility against a number of bulky teams, so I think it deserves its own ranking.
Okay, so that's it for now. Let me know if you have any thoughts. I'll take a look at lower ranks soon.
I don't agree with will o zard x moving up. Definitely not as threatening as DD or even SD IMO but it is a solid A+.
Agree on Starmie just in terms of splash ability.
Scarftar is its best set and still hits an extremely important speed tier out speeding Latios Starmie and Gengar which are its main targets. I don't agree with a drop.
I can agree with dropping support Altaria, but I more firmly believe that Cotton Guard should be separated from DDD. It's popular enough to warrant its own set and I believe there is a considerable gap in their levels of effectiveness. I would put CG in A- or A.
Support tg rd Mana rise.
Agree on removing SpDef Zard Y, but leave Band Talon even if its a sub par set compared to the others.
Fine with Chomp and Exca noms, I think fast support Tran is fine in A though
On my phone so excuse typos etc
Agree on Starmie just in terms of splash ability.
Scarftar is its best set and still hits an extremely important speed tier out speeding Latios Starmie and Gengar which are its main targets. I don't agree with a drop.
I can agree with dropping support Altaria, but I more firmly believe that Cotton Guard should be separated from DDD. It's popular enough to warrant its own set and I believe there is a considerable gap in their levels of effectiveness. I would put CG in A- or A.
Support tg rd Mana rise.
Agree on removing SpDef Zard Y, but leave Band Talon even if its a sub par set compared to the others.
Fine with Chomp and Exca noms, I think fast support Tran is fine in A though
On my phone so excuse typos etc
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I would like to nominate Scarf Volcarona for a rank, B- or C+ imo. You're probably wondering "Why would I use this over Quiver Dance Volcarona?" Well, Scarf Volcarona can be fast without setup, and strill hits hard with it's massive 135 special attack. It can run both of it's STABS and still have 2 moveslots left, like Giga Drain or HP Ground. It can even run U-Turn to deal chip damage and make momentum, probably one of the most appealing things about this set. While it can't pivot forever thanks to that crippling SR weakness, it can still at least do some damage. While this set is a bit overshadowed by the other sets, Choice Scarf Volcarona deserves a ranking.
Choice items are generally not so good on pokemon that are weak to Stealth Rock because they are often forced to switch out after they are locked into a move.
There are some exceptions but in general especially when a pokemon has a setup move thats basically a Choice Scarf + Calm Mind it's just not really gonna be viable.
There are some exceptions but in general especially when a pokemon has a setup move thats basically a Choice Scarf + Calm Mind it's just not really gonna be viable.
Guys, Hoopa-U and Hoopa-C are now ranked, so we gotta put their sets in:
Here is my personal placement on how Hoopa-U's set are gonna be like since it's A+
All-Out Attacking: A+
Choice Scarf: A/A+
Nasty Plot: A
Assault Vest: A-/B+
SubSalac: B/B+
I don't play Hoopa-C that much, so I don't know how the sets will be placed.
Here is my personal placement on how Hoopa-U's set are gonna be like since it's A+
All-Out Attacking: A+
Choice Scarf: A/A+
Nasty Plot: A
Assault Vest: A-/B+
SubSalac: B/B+
I don't play Hoopa-C that much, so I don't know how the sets will be placed.
about hoop-c i think he must be c+ rank or something slower, he is usually outclassed by his bro, but have 2 niches over him: Spinblock(Shadow ball, taunt, focus blast and something) and subcm/sunp since he got perfect coverage using Shadow ball + focus blast. he deserves a place in the viability ranking, i think alongisde things like blissey is fine.
but we need a week to decide the place of them, am said this in the viability ranking thread
AraEDIT: No double posts
but we need a week to decide the place of them, am said this in the viability ranking thread
AraEDIT: No double posts
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I disagree with unranking choice band talonflame. It's useful on HO teams that like an answer to Mega Venusaur or its ilk. Just because it's less common doesn't neccesarily mean that it's bad, since usage does not equate to viability. Politoed is NU by usage, and just because mega Houndoom isn't used all that often doesn't mean it isn't a viable late game cleaner.
All that aside, Tangrowth should have its sets ranked differently, since an Assault vest set and physically defensive set are viable, I was thinking:
Assault Vest Pivot: B-
Physically Defensive: C+
All that aside, Tangrowth should have its sets ranked differently, since an Assault vest set and physically defensive set are viable, I was thinking:
Assault Vest Pivot: B-
Physically Defensive: C+
Ok so now that Hoopa-U is ranked, here are my thoughts on the sets:
LO All-out-Attacker --> A+
This set destroys bulky balanced and stall alike, due to the fact that there are literally no switch in's to it. With a LO, it can 2HKO even the bulkiest of mons. It is infidelity it's best set.
AV Bulky Attacker --> A
Thanks to it's 130 SpDef coupled with AV, Hoopa-U can surprisingly live some powerful hits. It just still has to deal with that not so impressive 80 Spd, and the abysmal 60 Def that hinders this set. Still good overall.
Choice Scarf Mixed Attacker --> A-
A Choice Scarf helps deal with that troublesome 80 Spd, as Hoopa-U can outpace some key threats and proceed to revenge kill them. Although priority is a big problem for this set, and it still has to deal with faster scarfers.
Don't have any experience with Hoopa-C yet, will test.
LO All-out-Attacker --> A+
This set destroys bulky balanced and stall alike, due to the fact that there are literally no switch in's to it. With a LO, it can 2HKO even the bulkiest of mons. It is infidelity it's best set.
AV Bulky Attacker --> A
Thanks to it's 130 SpDef coupled with AV, Hoopa-U can surprisingly live some powerful hits. It just still has to deal with that not so impressive 80 Spd, and the abysmal 60 Def that hinders this set. Still good overall.
Choice Scarf Mixed Attacker --> A-
A Choice Scarf helps deal with that troublesome 80 Spd, as Hoopa-U can outpace some key threats and proceed to revenge kill them. Although priority is a big problem for this set, and it still has to deal with faster scarfers.
Don't have any experience with Hoopa-C yet, will test.
Sorry for slacking on this project so much lately. It's been a bit of struggle to keep up with updates cause of some irl stuff and a general lack of motivation on my part. However, I've put together a bit of a solution that I think will really help keep this project more accurate and up to date.
SO, without further ado, I present to everyone the "ORAS OU Sets VR Thread Pseudo-Council" (catchy, huh?).
This council will help me to decide the placements of sets, and likewise, the members may post in this thread from time to time to explain the reasoning behind the placement of certain sets. The council currently consists of myself, bludz, m00ns, and KlefkiHolder. All of these guys (aside from me) are well known presences in the OU room on PS, so I trust their judgements and opinions.Also, I am looking for one more member to bring the council to five, so if anyone is interested, just shoot me a pm on here or PS.
All right, with that announcement out of the way, I will admit that the current rankings look like a bit of a mess. As such, I'm going to take the weekend to talk to our brand new pseudo-council about a number of set placements. We will put together a sort of "rank clean up", and I'll make a post Sunday or Monday w/ a bunch of updates. Feel free to post until then, but just know that a lot of changes are on the way anyway.
EDIT: Our fifth pseudo-council member will be Analytic. He is an active member of the OU community and will give us a really solid council through and through.
SO, without further ado, I present to everyone the "ORAS OU Sets VR Thread Pseudo-Council" (catchy, huh?).
This council will help me to decide the placements of sets, and likewise, the members may post in this thread from time to time to explain the reasoning behind the placement of certain sets. The council currently consists of myself, bludz, m00ns, and KlefkiHolder. All of these guys (aside from me) are well known presences in the OU room on PS, so I trust their judgements and opinions.
All right, with that announcement out of the way, I will admit that the current rankings look like a bit of a mess. As such, I'm going to take the weekend to talk to our brand new pseudo-council about a number of set placements. We will put together a sort of "rank clean up", and I'll make a post Sunday or Monday w/ a bunch of updates. Feel free to post until then, but just know that a lot of changes are on the way anyway.
EDIT: Our fifth pseudo-council member will be Analytic. He is an active member of the OU community and will give us a really solid council through and through.
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i would like to nom specs goth to B: i know that scarf can revenge kill a few mons like breloom and mega venusaur, and set-up against any stall mon bar megas, and sweep stall teams, but the support that specs goth can provide is also very good, the moveset is psychc/psyshock, trick, t-bolt/hp fire/energy ball(you choose what you need, ex: mega lop doesn't need ferro being removed so goth can run energy ball and t-bolt). i will list the mons that specs goth can take:, azumaril, keldeo, 0 spe mega siczor, ferrothorn, hippodown, skarmory, slowbro, defensive starmie, mega venusaur, klefki,, politoed(gg), unboosted mega slowbro, dragagle, suicune, slowking, quagsire, out of rain omastar, tentacruel, amoongus, conkledurr, chesgnaght, mandibuzz, alomomola, seismitoad, rhyperior, roserade and forretress.
with trick you can criple: clefable, chansey, blissey, reuniclus, wobbufet, brozong, celebi, mew and jirachi(i know scarf goth can criple this mon too).
specs goth can take almost every defensive mon(and some offensives too) mon in the game, try to list one sweeper that don't apreciate one of this mons being removed of the match, you won't find anyone. i know that after removing a defensive mon goth will probably be dead weight agaisnt balanced, bulky offense or HO, but remove a defensive mon from the game is an very important job, you can bring a sweeper and destroy the enemy team. i know that she can be used as a set-up bait after she traps something, but scarf goth can be used as a set-up bait too. the support that specs goth brings is just huge, i think it should be B.
with trick you can criple: clefable, chansey, blissey, reuniclus, wobbufet, brozong, celebi, mew and jirachi(i know scarf goth can criple this mon too).
specs goth can take almost every defensive mon(and some offensives too) mon in the game, try to list one sweeper that don't apreciate one of this mons being removed of the match, you won't find anyone. i know that after removing a defensive mon goth will probably be dead weight agaisnt balanced, bulky offense or HO, but remove a defensive mon from the game is an very important job, you can bring a sweeper and destroy the enemy team. i know that she can be used as a set-up bait after she traps something, but scarf goth can be used as a set-up bait too. the support that specs goth brings is just huge, i think it should be B.
I'd like to throw in some support for a NP lucario set, with maybe C- viability. It has surprising power, is grossly unprepared for, and can sweep late game. it still suffers from the fact that it has no bulk whatsoever, but I think it's worth noting. this is after one nasty plot:
Mew (OU Stallbreaker)Flash Cannon77.2 - 91%25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Mew (OU Stallbreaker)Flash Cannon77.2 - 91%25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
While you bring up some good points, the issue here is that Scarf Gothitelle is better for a few reasons. One of the biggest things that makes Scarf Goth a better choice most of the time is how it's more reliable against offensive Pokemon than Specs. Specs gets outsped and killed by lots of stuff that Scarf can outspeed and gimp (with Trick). This is mainly focused on speedy shit that's weak to Psychic and likes setting up / switching moves (EX: Hawlucha). Of course, this is a bit situational, but that's just an issue with Gothitelle as a Pokemon really. While Specs is a bit better against stall thanks to the 1.5x SpA, Scarf is still fantastic against stall too. All it really lacks is that Specs power boost, but it can run CM to make up for this lol (running CM misses out on coverage of course, but it's still something.). So basically, Specs has a better MU against stall than Scarf, but Scarf already has an excellent MU against Stall & it has a better MU against offensive shit.
I'd like to get SubPunch Hoopa-U or simply Substitute Hoopa-U ranked as a set. It abuses the switches that Hoopa-U forces, and has excellent payoff in absorbing status, etc. In addition, its Substitutes are surprisingly resilient, being able to occasionally tank Rotom-W's Volt Switch and unboosted Suicune's Scald (lol) with absolutely no investment. With a good amount of investment, its Sub can tank SpDef Tran's Lava Plume and KO back with a Focus Punch + H-fury, or it can set up CMs or Nasty Plots against it. I think A would be a good rank for it, or dare I even say A+?
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Aight, so I've had a fun time managing this thread, but clearly I've been slacking lately cause of IRL stuff and other pokemon commitments. As such, I asked the members of the council if one of them would like to take over updating and running the thread/council.
The wonderful bludz volunteered, and I am happily passing the baton off to him at this point in time. Bludz is a well known OU Room Mod, and his judgements are logical and well thought out. I am confident he will do a great job.
I will remain a member of the council, though bludz will now be the main overseer of this project. Many thanks to him for taking this on, and additional thanks goes out to the other members of the council - m00ns, KlefkiHolder, and Analytic - I enjoyed our discussions and look forward to more in the future.
With that said, I'm gonna tag AM so he can lock this thread. I'm sure bludz will get around to posting the new thread as soon as he can.
pce bros - urban out.
The wonderful bludz volunteered, and I am happily passing the baton off to him at this point in time. Bludz is a well known OU Room Mod, and his judgements are logical and well thought out. I am confident he will do a great job.
I will remain a member of the council, though bludz will now be the main overseer of this project. Many thanks to him for taking this on, and additional thanks goes out to the other members of the council - m00ns, KlefkiHolder, and Analytic - I enjoyed our discussions and look forward to more in the future.
With that said, I'm gonna tag AM so he can lock this thread. I'm sure bludz will get around to posting the new thread as soon as he can.
pce bros - urban out.
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