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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359

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I also want to move Celebi down to B+. As I said already, Fighting-types are on the decline, and while Celebi actually has a way to hit them super-effectively, Lopunny still hammers it. NastyPass has few setup opportunities, and the recipient is very predictable. It's torn for an EV spread, as it needs both speed and defenses to accomplish anything. For the role of a bulky grass, Chesnaught and Breloom have something much more useful (spikes and spore).
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Celebi: 127-151 (31.4 - 37.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

???

Celebi is much better than you're giving it credit for... Just looking through the A-S ranks, it deals with : non-NP Thundurus, non-BD Azumarill, non-HP Bug Keldeo, non-Sludge Wave Landorus-I, Mega-Lopunny, Ferrothorn (can't touch it as it sets up to +6) Rotom-W, Slowbro and its mega, Hippowdon, Manaphy, Politoed, and Terrakion, and checks Excadrill, Diggersby and Garchomp quite well for the most part, so if this thing can't find opportunities to reliably set up I don't know what can.

I don't see how lack of speed is really an issue since a) Celebi is mostly used defensively and speed isn't a huge concern for walls and b) Celebi is already very fast for a wall, and can afford enough EVs in Speed to outspeed Adamant Diggersby and Adamant MHera (less so for jolly variants) without losing too much bulk. And sure, Chesnaught, Breloom and Amonguss have Spikes and Spore respectively, but Celebi has utility options up the wahzoo : Nastypass, Subpass, CMpass, Perish Song, Heal Bell, U-Turn, Stealth Rock, Healing Wish, Thunder Wave, Leech Seed, Trick Room, heck even freaking dual screens if you want to go there. This easily trumps anything Amoonguss can offer.

Then there's the fact that it has a whole load of sets it can run, ranging from physically defensive to LO offensive to even scarf, which puts it a step above the other Grass types you mentioned. I guess Breloom does have some versatility, but all of its sets pretty much have the same answers. Not so for Celebi : you can slap a Heatran or Bisharp in front of it and proceed to get smacked by Earth Power, or you can send in Chansey or Ferrothorn and serve as easy Substitute fodder. Celebi should not be dropping any time soon, it's becoming more and more popular and deservedly so.
 
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Mawile (base forme after the mega was banned) and Vaporeon were both unranked during their time in OU, so this certainly isn't the case.
Those were only OU as colateral of bans. Vaporeon was ranked far past it's useful life in OU and Mawile was not OU for it's base form. I mean, it's not a hard and fast thing either. I remember people tried to drop it in the V3 or V2 thread and there was some wierd reason it couldn't drop. The two you named were on track to drop, Venomoth is unlikely to be eligible below OU for the foreseeable future. I even said I didn't remember the exact reason, but a little critical thinking would be nice too.

"this certainly isn't the case." Frankly, this sounded a little condescending. There's critical thinking involved with this kind of stuff.
 
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252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Celebi: 127-151 (31.4 - 37.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

???

Celebi is much better than you're giving it credit for... Just looking through the A-S ranks, it deals with : non-NP Thundurus, non-BD Azumarill, non-HP Bug Keldeo, non-Sludge Wave Landorus-I, Mega-Lopunny, Ferrothorn (can't touch it as it sets up to +6) Rotom-W, Slowbro and its mega, Hippowdon, Manaphy, Politoed, and Terrakion, and checks Excadrill, Diggersby and Garchomp quite well for the most part, so if this thing can't find opportunities to reliably set up I don't know what can.

I don't see how lack of speed is really an issue since a) Celebi is mostly used defensively and speed isn't a huge concern for walls and b) Celebi is already very fast for a wall, and can afford enough EVs in Speed to outspeed Adamant Diggersby and Adamant MHera (less so for jolly variants) without losing too much bulk. And sure, Chesnaught, Breloom and Amonguss have Spikes and Spore respectively, but Celebi has utility options up the wahzoo : Nastypass, Subpass, CMpass, Perish Song, Heal Bell, U-Turn, Stealth Rock, Healing Wish, Thunder Wave, Leech Seed, Trick Room, heck even freaking dual screens if you want to go there. This easily trumps anything Amoonguss can offer.

Then there's the fact that it has a whole load of sets it can run, ranging from physically defensive to LO offensive to even scarf, which puts it a step above the other Grass types you mentioned. I guess Breloom does have some versatility, but all of its sets pretty much have the same answers. Not so for Celebi : you can slap a Heatran or Bisharp in front of it and proceed to get smacked by Earth Power, or you can send in Chansey or Ferrothorn and serve as easy Substitute fodder. Celebi should not be dropping any time soon, it's becoming more and more popular and deservedly so.

Only the T-wave+3 attacks set is helpless against Celebi. You did mention the NP set, but you forgot Taunt, which turns Celebi into setup fodder for a lot of common stuff, like Megagross. Banded Azumarill OHKOs with Knock off, so Celebi loses to Azumarill's two most common sets. You're right about Keldeo, but Celebi doesn't like passing speed drops from Icy Wind. Landorus-I almost always uses Sludge Wave to deal with fairies, or it can use U-turn or Knock off to 2HKO it cleanly. I was wrong about Lopunny. Basically everything with a bit of bulk sets up on Ferrothorn, even stuff like Gyarados and Ampharos. Rotom-W tricks you a choice item and you lose most of your utility. Slowbro and it's mega lose. I have never seen Hippowdon used in ORAS OU. After a tail glow boost Manaphy 2HKOs with Ice Beam, which means that Celebi loses. I can hardly call Politoed common anymore, nit since Gen 5. Terrakion only loses without X-Scissor or Knock off, if it has either of these it wins. By check, Celebi can't set up, which is its main use. In other words, Celebi can set up on a handful of common pokemon: slowbro, keldeo and ferrothorn. You make it seem like Celebi has all those exclusive niches, but only Nastypass, Heal Bell, Leach seed and Healing wish are exclusive, effective and well-used by Celebi. Even then, Subseed is used by basically every grass-type, while I find that Lati@s is a better healing wish user. I used Celebi for a bit (Nastypass), and it was just taking too much damage from things it's supposed to beat. I replaced it with Chesnaught because I needed a defensive grass on balance, and it's worked much better for me. I guess if you really need Nastypass or Cleric support, it could be good for you. Niche options are more on the lines of a B rank mon, and Celebi is pretty good at its niches. This is why I think a B+ rank is completely fair.
 
Alright here is my wall of noms: (I will put my reasons why in a skeleton or whatever you call it)

D Ranks:

Audino ---> Unranked


Heracross ---> C-

Cofagrigus ---> C-

Hydreigon ---> C

Audino (Mega): I mean, this guy has little to no niches that deserve the mega slot. There is literally almost no reason to run this over the much better megas out there. Yea, I may sound a little out of the ordinary, but I cant see any reason to bump it up to C- or keep it in D for now.

Heracross: All I know is that Heracross got a really good niche as being a WoW baiter in the style of Guts, and to run a CB set/AV set that does work. It also doesnt have that bad of a Speed stat, you know.

Cofagrigus: I'm pretty sure I'm not gonna be called Jewish because of this nom. I mean, lets look at it. It has a great niche in the form of its Ability: Mummy. Sure, it's slow and it might need some support, but it has decent defenses and it basically stops every physical attacker that relies on its Ability. Im not saying you should use this for MMedi or something, but it definetly works well on shit like MMeta and Azu.

Hydreigon: Ill be honest, I never used this guy, but I know it doesnt deserve D rank. Once a great threat in Gen 5, its coming back. Sure, Fairies hurt the guy, but name me 5 fairies that are relevant in OU. Its Specs set is great, too. I'm pretty sure people are using it to stop MSab, iirc. It would of been better if it had a decent ability, though.

C ranks:

Absol (Mega): ---> C+

Pidgeot (Mega): ---> C

Exploud: ---> C

Haxorus: ---> C

Shuckle: ---> C-

Sableye: ---> C+

Lanturn: ---> C-

Staraptor: ---> C

Medicham (Mega): ---> C/C-

Doublade: ---> C

Absol (Mega): I know that this guy fares off MSableye well as it learns Play Rough and IIRC when 2 Magic Bouncers are in the ring, whoever uses the non damaging move gets the affects. This thing takes out MSab well, and other than that it can tear a few holes here and there. Good revenge killer and speed too.

Pidgeot (Mega): One of the best Flying Nukes in OU. Hits hard, has a good speed tier, etc. Definetly doesnt deserve that low of a rank.

Exploud: SpecsLoud with Scrappy hits everything, and it hurts anything that isnt a Steel or Rock type. Exploud can keep MSab and stall in general at its toes.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 300-354 (98.6 - 116.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Not bad imo. And you know it can 2HKO at +1 defenses too so

Shuckle: Really lost his swag as of now. No one really uses Sticky Web support and hes basically deadweight after setup.

Sableye: Why is this guy in C? He has so many good niches. +1 Recover? Ok. +1 WoW? Ok. +1 Taunt? Sweet! This guy breaks stall and works as a staller at the same time. With decent defenses it can PP stall with Recover and troll to death.

Lanturn: Outclassed by its counterpart who isnt even that good in the meta.

Staraptor: Tbh this guy got good and bad in this meta. Birdspam got worse and 100 base speed is bad now. Sure, you could look at it like "BUT EVERYTHING LOWER GETS DEMOLISHED" nah, in fact this guy basically has to go into anything slower than it. Its not a good revenge killer cause it cant revenge kill... See where im going to?

Medicham (Mega): Mega Sableye. Do i really need to say anything else or are we finished?

Doublade: Not really that good now. Slow, not the best typing, and is weak to a lot of threats in OU. MLop and MSab are way too common to let this thing be seen. Also it kinda sucks anyways so lol.

Ill edit the B's and A's if i wanted to but this is good for now.
 
I highly disagree with moving Mega Medicham below C+. There's a reason it was A ranks in XY and it's still the same 'mon. It's just not treated kindly by the metagame because of Mega Sableye and Mega Gallade mostly outclassing it, but otherwise it's still a good Pokémon.
 
I highly disagree with moving Mega Medicham below C+. There's a reason it was A ranks in XY and it's still the same 'mon. It's just not treated kindly by the metagame because of Mega Sableye and Mega Gallade mostly outclassing it, but otherwise it's still a good Pokémon.
No, its cause MMedi has no use over MGallade bar its natural power, and MSab shuts it down. If MMedi could kinda handle MSableye that would of been better but now this guy sucks vs Stall...
 
Mega Sableye should definitely be S Rank IMO. It is so hard to deal with and so easy to use, which coincides with the 'slapability' and low opportunity cost that S Ranks have. You can literally look at your opponent's team preview and if there is no Fairy type, you can lead with M-Sableye and set up 2 free Calm Minds.
What makes Sableye so annoying is that has Prankster before mega evolving. Prankster Will-o-wisp discourages M-Altaria and Azumarill from switching in and it guarantees at least 1 Calm Mind (2 if they switch out). Many times, you have to force the mega evolution before you try to deal with it.
It's just so easy to build a M-Sableye team because you have 5 remaining team slots to only deal with 1 type weakness. If you fear specific Pokemon like Mega Gardevoir or Mega Diancie, you can so easily fit in one or two hard counters or just slap a CB Scizor if you feel like it. I think that the fact that M-Gallade's demotion is even being brought up shows the presence that M-Sableye has.

I agree with everybody else with Mega Gallade to A Rank. I think that its STAB's are walled a bit too easily and since Psycho Cut/Zen Headbutt has such low base power, anything that resists Fighting can switch in.

Mega Gyarados should stay A+ Rank. It faces heavy competition from M-Charizard X and M-Altaria as a Dragon Dancer and although it's great bulk makes it easy to set up, it lacks power IMO. 80 Base Power Waterfall at +1 doesn't hit hard enough and Mold Breaker Taunt is getting too hyped up IMO.

I'm unsure about Mega Lopunny moving to S. Sure, it is a great Pokemon with its unresisted STAB's, great speed and its two free move slots but I don't think it has the 'presence' of the other S Ranks. Landorus-T has like 30% usage, Latios is almost impossible to safely switch in to and M-Metagross is super bulky, super fast and hits really hard. I don't think M-Lopunny has the overwhelming 'I must have Pokemon that can check this' factor that the other S ranks have because although unresisted coverage can wreck offence, the fact that STAB Return cannot hit super effectively makes it easier to play around for balance and stall teams since many bulky Pokemon like Hippowdown, Celebi, Slowbro, M-Altaria, Jirachi and Landorus-T can force it out. The sub sets that claim to beat stall are too easily worn down, especially because fat Pokemon like Slowbro have reliable recovery. TL;DR: stay A+.

We've all seen Thundurus-T's drop coming.

Lastly, why did Staraptor move down? NOTHING can safely switch in because Banded, Reckless Brave Bird OHKO's most Pokemon and 2HKO's Pokemon that resist it. It's Scarf set hits harder than Banded Talonflame. Band is an excellent wallbreaker and Scarf is an excellent cleaner (although it is somewhat outclassed by Talonflame). 100 Speed is not great but its good enough for its role and it should definitely stay B-.
 
Only the T-wave+3 attacks set is helpless against Celebi.
Ferrothorn has a TWave 3 Attacks set? Ferrothorn really can't do anything to stop Sub/Nastypass Celebi from taking advantage of it besides lay down more hazards, so yeah it's pretty helpless
You did mention the NP set, but you forgot Taunt, which turns Celebi into setup fodder for a lot of common stuff, like Megagross.
This applies to any defensive Pokemon bar Sableye so I don't really see how that's relevant.
Banded Azumarill OHKOs with Knock off, so Celebi loses to Azumarill's two most common sets.
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Celebi: 284-336 (70.2 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Also, while Celebi loses to BD Azu if it switches in on the setup, it still leaves it at less than 25% which is well enough to revenge kill it with any priority so it's not like you completely lose to it either.
Landorus-I almost always uses Sludge Wave to deal with fairies
not true, Landorus-I doesn't usually carry Sludge Wave since most fairies are 2HKO'd by Earth Power, in fact, Celebi and Togekiss are Sludge Wave's only targets which makes it a subpar option on Landorus-I
or it can use U-turn or Knock off to 2HKO it cleanly.
U-Turn Lando-I doesn't exist and Knock Off does like 40%
Basically everything with a bit of bulk sets up on Ferrothorn, even stuff like Gyarados and Ampharos.
Gyarados and Ampharos can't pass their boosts though. Also Gyarados is kinda destroyed by Power Whip?
Rotom-W tricks you a choice item and you lose most of your utility.
scarf rotom-w is also bad set which sees no use in higher-level play so I wouldn't worry too much about that
I have never seen Hippowdon used in ORAS OU.
It's A- in viability... Whether you've seen it or not isn't really relevant since it's clearly viable and therefore used quite often
After a tail glow boost Manaphy 2HKOs with Ice Beam, which means that Celebi loses.
I might be wrong on this one but Ice Beam isn't very common on Manaphy afaik, most prefer Rest, Energy Ball (for Mega-Slowbro) or even Psychic (for Mega-Venusaur).
I can hardly call Politoed common anymore, nit since Gen 5.
???? I'm sorry but have you played on the suspect ladder at all?
Terrakion only loses without X-Scissor or Knock off, if it has either of these it wins.
Okay, point taken regarding X-Scissor. However, if Terrakion does have X-Scissor is is choiced, which means it actually has to predict the Celebi switchin, and also a Terrakion locked into X-Scissor is very easy to take advantage of.
also Terrakion can't learn Knock Off, and even if it could Celebi wouldn't care.
You make it seem like Celebi has all those exclusive niches, but only Nastypass, Heal Bell, Leach seed and Healing wish are exclusive, effective and well-used by Celebi. Even then, Subseed is used by basically every grass-type, while I find that Lati@s is a better healing wish user.
Those aren't exclusive to Celebi of course, but it can do these things, all the while walling a pretty large portion of the metagame. You're not using Celebi as a dedicated SubSeeder or a dedicated Healing Wish user, there's no such thing. You're using it primarily as a wall, but that can also subpass/heal bell/perish song. Say, for example, you need a SR user that counters Keldeo. Celebi is pretty much your best bet.
I used Celebi for a bit (Nastypass), and it was just taking too much damage from things it's supposed to beat. I replaced it with Chesnaught because I needed a defensive grass on balance, and it's worked much better for me.
If Chesnaught worked better on your team than Celebi, then that's fine, but as an avid user of both Celebi and Chesnaught, I can assure you that Celebi fits on more teams and is more consistently useful in terms of what it beats and the utility it provides. Not that Chesnaught is bad, of course, it's pretty good. But Celebi just has more going for in general and is much easier to put on a team so it makes sense for it to be ranked higher.
 
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im on mobile sorry but
Lastly, Diancie should rise to C or C+. It is almost guaranteed to get rocks up each game. It also makes a wicked Screens setter, being able to provide crucial setup opportunities for its teammates. Its bulk is surprising, capable of tanking even water- and grass-type attacks. The only thing it really fears is Steel-type attacks, which are basically a OHKO. These are predictable, though, being basically restricted to Bisharp, Metagross and Scizor. It also packs a surprising punch, as rock and fairy have good super-effective coverage. It does run into 4MSS, as it wants to run rocks, screens, STABs and Toxic. Despite this, it is useful enough to be upgraded to C or C+.
yeah but like, its bulk isnt as good as ur selling it. keep in mind it has 50 base hp. thats hella bad for a defensive mon. but, take mega sableye. it has 50 base hp, but its able to take hits cause of its ability. diancie is outlclassed as a defensive mon by... most defensive mons, has a shit speed, and outclassed by mega diancie in pretty much every way except maybe as a trick room setter that can set up rocks.

also venus fine where it is. its lost a lot on stall but its better and an unprepared for threat when used offensively.
 
Celebi really shouldn't drop to B+. It literally fits under the definition of an A rank category mon via the OP description and putting it in the same sub rank as Amoonguss or Skarmory and saying that its of equal viability is simply untrue. It has plenty of support moves to further enhance team capabilities and none of them are niche in whatever imaginary world this was somehow established in.

Albacore although I agree with most of your points on Celebi Sludge Wave Lando-I in this meta is not a subpar option especially on Calm Mind sets when it hits plenty of stuff for neutral coverage such as the Latis, Zapdos, while decimating Fairy types in most cases clean instead of relying on a 2HKO which leaves it prone to getting hit by already boosted Clefables, M-Gardevoir, and Specially Defensive / Mixed Bulk Sylveon just as examples if relying solely on Earth Power to handle them.

Edit: M-Medicham is highly outclassed by M-Gallade but dropping something with that much realistic power behind it to the level of C or anything below C+ for that matter is just ludicrous.
 
Some more suggestions about some of the mega pokemon...

Mega Gallade from A+ to A

Mega Gallade was once a contender for the S rank slots. However, things have changed. Mega Gallade suffers from a horrible case of the 4mss, wanting to run swords dance, close combat, zen Headbutt, knock off, shadow sneak, will-o-wisp and taunt. However, it must sacrifice three of those moves, and close combat and zen Headbutt are pretty much mandatory, and the inability to KO psychos with shadow sneak is pretty horrid, so knock off is a pretty much a must. Also, it's is easily counterd by mega sableye and physically defensive unaware cleable, so it can't beat stall like some of the other megas can. Finnaly, it has poor physical bulk, which is never good for a set up sweeper.

Mega Lopunny from A+ to S

Simarly to Greninja, Lopunny destroys offensive teams with fake out, which allow it to get chip damage to score some crucial KOs. It has powerful stab moves, good coverage with ice punch, and amazing utility with Subsitute, encore and most importantly healing wish. It should also be noted that when in its base form, it cannot be paralysed by Thunderus becuase of limber. It also does well against all other play styles, no matter the match up. The only issue I find is it wants to run more then 4 moves. Lopunny would like to run fake out, ice punch, frustration, high jump kick, Substitue and healing wish. However, this offers lots of freedom as the only moves "mandatory" for the bunny are frustration and high jump kick. Need coverage? Ice punch. Want to give other pokemon a second chance? Healing wish. Want to torture stall teams. Substitute. Murder offense? Fake out. Lopunny is relatable to Azumarill right after the mega Mawile ban, where it was amazing and very defining.

Mega Sableye moves from A+ to S

My second Favorite mega evolution (first place is Altaria) and the back bone of stall, mega sableye is a force to be reckoned with. It's calm mind set has very little answers, and it can pick team mates to handle them, such as jirachi for mega Gardevoir, and skarmory for Lopunny. Magic bounce and recover make this thing very hard to take down, and it can cripple physical attacks not named mega Gyarados and are not fired type with will-o-wisp. While the meta is a little prepared for it, it still pulls its weight in all battles it partakes in, as stall is the dominant playstyle and mega sableye is the primary reason for that. Magic bounce also means that it can not only stop hazards from being set, but also block its teammates hazards from being span away. Easily one of the best pokemon in game, and I see it on the same level as latios and landerus.

Mega Diance moves from A to A+

Anyone who's has faced it knows that this thing does not leave any wounded. It has access to two great boasting moves. Rock polish and calm mind. The former make it deadly for offensive teams. While the latter is a night karen for stall. Magic bounce means it can stop hazards from being set, and it being paralysed by stuff like Thunderus. Moon blast hits like a truck, particularly if boosted. Finally, dimond storm allows diance to boost its Defense while doing good amounts of damage, making it difficult to take it down using priority. Overall mega Diance is a amazing pokemon that definentley deserves A+.

Mega Latias stays in A

It's still very difficult to take down and while the calm mind set is walled by dark types ( and most teams have one) it can still be effective the right amount of support. The bulky Defog set is much better in my opinion. It can also make a decent offensive Defogger, but normal latios is much better at this. Its definentley borderline between A and A-, but I am kind off leanings towards A rank.

Mega Sceptile from A- to A

This thing is great against offense, due to its speed tier and substitute. It also forces electric types to choose carefully, as it can switchin a and gain a special Attack boost with lightning Rod. Similarly to mega latias, I can see it in A and A-, but I am leaning towards A, becuase it's great against offense. However, it is pretty weak so I think so it can only threaten the team if it's absorbed an electric type Attack or if the opposing team is weakened so yeah...

Mega Camurupt from C+ to C

It's powerful... But slow and has two horrible weaknesses. The only jse form I see are trick room and mabee a volt turn check. That's it. Their are better megas to use. It would be much better if it could hold a life orb.

Mega Pidgeot to C+/B-

No Gaurd hurricane... this thing is great with support. If you are able to sustain your health, remove rocks and take out threats such as heatran and Tyranitar, mega Pidgeot is deadly. I've been using it along side Nasty plot + baton pass celebi. If you want a more detailed explanation, please read Recreant's post a few pages back.

Unrank Mega Steelix

Completely outclassed by Mega Aggron

Unrank Mega Audino

Outclassed by Clefable, uses up a mega slot, to passive and everything else that has been said.

Other stuff:
Mega Beedrill to B+
Hydreigon to C+/B-
Mega Gyarados to S (mabeye?)
Thunderus to A+
Mega Absol to C/C+
Exploud to D
Ditto to D
Unrank:
Shuckle
Blissey
Diance
Jellicent
Salamence
Metagross
Cloyeter
Melloeta
Gorebyss
Flygon
Venomoth
Tornadus (mabeye?)
Thunderus Therian (mabeye?)

Also, what do you guys think of reuniclus? It seems to be a decent trick room pokemon. It has good bulk, two excellent abilities, a decent movepool and a reliable recovery. Should it be ranked? If so, I would say D or mabeye C-.
Oh and un rank espeon. It's horrible.
 
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As much as I love Mega-Diancie, A rank is where it should stay. Base 50 HP and Speed in it's base form mean that it's getting hit without being a predicting god, and those 150 defenses don't take away enough damage. Priority wrecks it, especially with bullet punch being popular on two very good and useful Pokemon in the form of Scizor/Mega-Scizor and Megagross. The Ground weakness is also painful due to just how many things carry Earthquake/Power as coverage. Obviously you would wait until you can wipe the priority out before sending Diancie in, but until then the match is a 5v6 in your opponent's favor. When it gets in it puts in work no matter the set, don't get me wrong. A single RP with 160 in offenses is a death sentence to most teams near the end of the battle. But it requires team support to get to that point. A is a fine rank for it. Requires a team, but is a glaring win con that both you and your opponent play the game around.
 
Some more suggestions about some of the mega pokemon...

Mega Gallade from A+ to A

Mega Gallade was once a contender for the S rank slots. However, things have changed. Mega Gallade suffers from a horrible case of the 4mss, wanting to run swords dance, close combat, zen Headbutt, knock off, shadow sneak, will-o-wisp and taunt. However, it must sacrifice three of those moves, and close combat and zen Headbutt are pretty much mandatory, and the inability to KO psychos with shadow sneak is pretty horrid, so knock off is a pretty much a must. Also, it's is easily counterd by mega sableye and physically defensive unaware cleable, so it can't beat stall like some of the other megas can. Finnaly, it has poor physical bulk, which is never good for a set up sweeper.

Mega Lopunny from A+ to S

Simarly to Greninja, Lopunny destroys offensive teams with fake out, which allow it to get chip damage to score some crucial KOs. It has powerful stab moves, good coverage with ice punch, and amazing utility with Subsitute, encore and most importantly healing wish. It should also be noted that when in its base form, it cannot be paralysed by Thunderus becuase of limber. It also does well against all other play styles, no matter the match up. The only issue I find is it wants to run more then 4 moves. Lopunny would like to run fake out, ice punch, frustration, high jump kick, Substitue and healing wish. However, this offers lots of freedom as the only moves "mandatory" for the bunny are frustration and high jump kick. Need coverage? Ice punch. Want to give other pokemon a second chance? Healing wish. Want to torture stall teams. Substitute. Murder offense? Fake out. Lopunny is relatable to Azumarill right after the mega Mawile ban, where it was amazing and very defining.

Mega Sableye moves from A+ to S

My second Favorite mega evolution (first place is Altaria) and the back bone of stall, mega sableye is a force to be reckoned with. It's calm mind set has very little answers, and it can pick team mates to handle them, such as jirachi for mega Gardevoir, and skarmory for Lopunny. Magic bounce and recover make this thing very hard to take down, and it can cripple physical attacks not named mega Gyarados and are not fired type with will-o-wisp. While the meta is a little prepared for it, it still pulls its weight in all battles it partakes in, as stall is the dominant playstyle and mega sableye is the primary reason for that. Magic bounce also means that it can not only stop hazards from being set, but also block its teammates hazards from being span away. Easily one of the best pokemon in game, and I see it on the same level as latios and landerus.

Mega Diance moves from A to A+

Anyone who's has faced it knows that this thing does not leave any wounded. It has access to two great boasting moves. Rock polish and calm mind. The former make it deadly for offensive teams. While the latter is a night karen for stall. Magic bounce means it can stop hazards from being set, and it being paralysed by stuff like Thunderus. Moon blast hits like a truck, particularly if boosted. Finally, dimond storm allows diance to boost its Defense while doing good amounts of damage, making it difficult to take it down using priority. Overall mega Diance is a amazing pokemon that definentley deserves A+.

Mega Latias stays in A

It's still very difficult to take down and while the calm mind set is walled by dark types ( and most teams have one) it can still be effective the right amount of support. The bulky Defog set is much better in my opinion. It can also make a decent offensive Defogger, but normal latios is much better at this. Its definentley borderline between A and A-, but I am kind off leanings towards A rank.

Mega Sceptile from A- to A

This thing is great against offense, due to its speed tier and substitute. It also forces electric types to choose carefully, as it can switchin a and gain a special Attack boost with lightning Rod. Similarly to mega latias, I can see it in A and A-, but I am leaning towards A, becuase it's great against offense. However, it is pretty weak so I think so it can only threaten the team if it's absorbed an electric type Attack or if the opposing team is weakened so yeah...

Mega Camurupt from C+ to C

It's powerful... But slow and has two horrible weaknesses. The only jse form I see are trick room and mabee a volt turn check. That's it. Their are better megas to use. It would be much better if it could hold a life orb.

Mega Pidgeot to C+/B-

No Gaurd hurricane... this thing is great with support. If you are able to sustain your health, remove rocks and take out threats such as heatran and Tyranitar, mega Pidgeot is deadly. I've been using it along side Nasty plot + baton pass celebi. If you want a more detailed explanation, please read Recreant's post a few pages back.

Unrank Mega Steelix

Completely outclassed by Mega Aggron

Unrank Mega Audino

Outclassed by Clefable, uses up a mega slot, to passive and everything else that has been said.

Other stuff:
Mega Beedrill to B+
Hydreigon to C+/B-
Mega Gyarados to S (mabeye?)
Thunderus to A+
Mega Absol to C/C+
Exploud to D
Ditto to D
Unrank:
Shuckle
Blissey
Diance
Jellicent
Salamence
Metagross
Cloyeter
Melloeta
Gorebyss
Flygon
Venomoth
Tornadus (mabeye?)
Thunderus Therian (mabeye?)

Also, what do you guys think of reuniclus? It seems to be a decent trick room pokemon. It has good bulk, two excellent abilities, a decent movepool and a reliable recovery. Should it be ranked? If so, I would say D or mabeye C-.
Oh and un rank espeon. It's horrible.

Some of this stuff you want to unrank actually have worthwhile niches. Blissey has a niche of being able to handle the everso dangerous Life Orb Taunt Gengar, which Chansey can literally do nothing against, and alexwolf explained a few months ago that Tornadus-I has a niche of being stronger than Torn-T. Jellicent, Venomoth, and Metagross I agree with, but Shuckle may be a bit extreme at this point to unrank; there are probably some good Sticky Webs that work, though they are probably far and few between in terms of the amount of good Sticky Web teams that exist.
 
Mega Gallade from A+ to A

Mega Gallade was once a contender for the S rank slots. However, things have changed. Mega Gallade suffers from a horrible case of the 4mss, wanting to run swords dance, close combat, zen Headbutt, knock off, shadow sneak, will-o-wisp and taunt. However, it must sacrifice three of those moves, and close combat and zen Headbutt are pretty much mandatory, and the inability to KO psychos with shadow sneak is pretty horrid, so knock off is a pretty much a must. Also, it's is easily counterd by mega sableye and physically defensive unaware cleable, so it can't beat stall like some of the other megas can. Finnaly, it has poor physical bulk, which is never good for a set up sweeper.

I'm not opposed to Gallade dropping but just wanted to point these out. It does not have "horrible 4mss", the Swords Dance set has everything it needs since CC/Zen/Knock Off is perfect neutral coverage. Shadow Sneak is garbo so I don't know why you're even bringing it up. Will O Wisp and Taunt aren't needed on the SD set and you lose little to nothing by not taking them. Its physical bulk also isn't horrible, 68/95 lets it take one boosted Crunch from Gyarados for example and OHKO back. Not that it's a huge deal, since most of the time its bulk is used solely for getting a Swords Dance up, you're using CC anyway.

The only reason it should move down IMO is because MSableye and as a result Unaware Clefable are experiencing a huge usage spike, i.e. The two things that can beat it at +2, because otherwise it's on par with other A+ mons.
 
I'm not opposed to Gallade dropping but just wanted to point these out. It does not have "horrible 4mss", the Swords Dance set has everything it needs since CC/Zen/Knock Off is perfect neutral coverage. Shadow Sneak is garbo so I don't know why you're even bringing it up. Will O Wisp and Taunt aren't needed on the SD set and you lose little to nothing by not taking them. Its physical bulk also isn't horrible, 68/95 lets it take one boosted Crunch from Gyarados for example and OHKO back. Not that it's a huge deal, since most of the time its bulk is used solely for getting a Swords Dance up, you're using CC anyway.

The only reason it should move down IMO is because MSableye and as a result Unaware Clefable are experiencing a huge usage spike, i.e. The two things that can beat it at +2, because otherwise it's on par with other A+ mons.
Mabeye I worded that wrong...
Anyway, what I was trying to say is that it would LIKE to run all those moves, but can't. I guess their not mandatory, but they would help in certain situations. I agree that shadow sneak is not the best, but it can pick off a weakened Talonflame in at plus 2, which is good because the Talonflame would force you out with brave bird overwise. It's also good for not having to force a speed tie with the eon twins and gengar as a plus 2 shadow sneak kills both, the eons after rocks. It's physical bulk is kinda bad, and it's not going to help that their are so many super powerful physical attacks in the metagame. It can live plenty of physical hits when up against stall, but what does that matter when, as both of us mentioned, it's screwed over by mega sableye and physically defensive unaware clefable.
Thank you for taking time out of your day to read my post and reply.
Good day.
Sorry if that sounded rude. It was not intended to sound that way.
 
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Mabeye I worded that wrong...
Anyway, what I was trying to say is that it would LIKE to run all those moves, but can't. I guess their not mandatory, but they would help in certain situations. I agree that shadow sneak is not the best, but it can pick off a weakened Talonflame in at plus 2, which is good because the Talonflame would force you out with brave bird overwise. It's also good for not having to force a speed tie with the eon twins and gengar as a plus 2 shadow sneak kills both, the eons after rocks. It's physical bulk is kinda bad, and it's not going to help that their are so many super powerful physical attacks in the metagame. It can live plenty of physical hits when up against stall, but what does that matter when, as both of us mentioned, it's screwed over by mega sableye and physically defensive unaware clefable.
Thank you for taking time out of your day to read my post and reply.
Good day.
Sorry if that sounded rude. It was not intended to sound that way.
shadow sneak doesnt beat talon, ur still slower... and if you wanna beat the latis then just run knock off....
ALSO HAPPY (ALMOST) NEW YEAR EVERYONE! woo.
 
shadow sneak doesnt beat talon, ur still slower... and if you wanna beat the latis then just run knock off....
ALSO HAPPY (ALMOST) NEW YEAR EVERYONE! woo.
You have to risk the speed tie... I am not saying that you should run shadow sneak, as it is not worth taking up a moves lot for, but Gallade would LIKE to run it if it could. Also, Talonflame runs adamant and most have have some hp investment, so you are faster.
Almost happy new year guys.
 
You have to risk the speed tie... I am not saying that you should run shadow sneak, as it is not worth taking up a moves lot for, but Gallade would LIKE to run it if it could. Also, Talonflame runs adamant and most have have some hp investment, so you are faster.
Almost happy new year guys.
No matter how much speed an offensive talonflame runs, it never is slow enough that a base 110 Pokemon will outspeed it. If you're referring to a defensive one, that's a different story. They typically run enough speed for timid Raikou, which is 136+ speed.
 
No matter how much speed an offensive talonflame runs, it never is slow enough that a base 110 Pokemon will outspeed it. If you're referring to a defensive one, that's a different story. They typically run enough speed for timid Raikou, which is 136+ speed.
Ok ok.
It does not help for Talonflame. But speed tie between latios, latias and gengar is pretty important. Yes, it's mediocre, but if Gallade could run more then 4 moveslots, it would run shadow sneak.
 
Shadow Sneak would still be bad if Mega Gallade had 8 moveslots. It'd rather have Ice Punch, Posion Jab (for Unaware Clefable), Sub, Taunt, or Drain Punch before Shadow Sneak since they all actually do something relevant that helps it sweep. It's too weak even after a boost and your main targets are smacked by Knock Off anyway.
 
Just wondering, why is Milotic unranked?
Is it generally just outclassed by the other bulky waters? I could imagine so since the only thing that really sets it apart from the others is Competitive, Haze and Phazing through Dragon Tail, but I thought that would be enough for D-rank at least
 
Just wondering, why is Milotic unranked?
Is it generally just outclassed by the other bulky waters? I could imagine so since the only thing that really sets it apart from the others is Competitive, Haze and Phazing through Dragon Tail, but I thought that would be enough for D-rank at least
Yeah, she is generally outclassed, same thing with Vaporeon. Her offensive presence isn't that great with just Scald or Toxic and is outdone by other tanks, not just bulky waters. Competitive will rarely see use and it's better to send your Bisharp to take the Defog than your Milotic. Marvel Scale is a double edged sword. Eating status to boost your defense isn't worth it since burns hinder you and Toxic (which is what will be directed at Milotic most of the time) cuts your lifespan short. You'f be better off using Rotom-W, Slowbro, or Tentacruel since they have better abilities, utility (better burns, T-Wave, Toxic Spikes, Rapid Spin, Knock Off), and more offensive presence.
 
I agree its mediocre but it means you can kill the eon twins and gengar without risking a speed tie. Which is why I bought it up. I've never used it on Gallade. I just assumed it might have had a use if Gallade had room for it.

Shadow sneak is also mentioned in certain movesets in the Gallade forum. Not saying it's good (cause it's not) but still.
 
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Ferrothorn has a TWave 3 Attacks set? Ferrothorn really can't do anything to stop Sub/Nastypass Celebi from taking advantage of it besides lay down more hazards, so yeah it's pretty helpless

This applies to any defensive Pokemon bar Sableye so I don't really see how that's relevant.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Celebi: 284-336 (70.2 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Also, while Celebi loses to BD Azu if it switches in on the setup, it still leaves it at less than 25% which is well enough to revenge kill it with any priority so it's not like you completely lose to it either.

not true, Landorus-I doesn't usually carry Sludge Wave since most fairies are 2HKO'd by Earth Power, in fact, Celebi and Togekiss are Sludge Wave's only targets which makes it a subpar option on Landorus-I

U-Turn Lando-I doesn't exist and Knock Off does like 40%

Gyarados and Ampharos can't pass their boosts though. Also Gyarados is kinda destroyed by Power Whip?

scarf rotom-w is also bad set which sees no use in higher-level play so I wouldn't worry too much about that

It's A- in viability... Whether you've seen it or not isn't really relevant since it's clearly viable and therefore used quite often

I might be wrong on this one but Ice Beam isn't very common on Manaphy afaik, most prefer Rest, Energy Ball (for Mega-Slowbro) or even Psychic (for Mega-Venusaur).

???? I'm sorry but have you played on the suspect ladder at all?

Okay, point taken regarding X-Scissor. However, if Terrakion does have X-Scissor is is choiced, which means it actually has to predict the Celebi switchin, and also a Terrakion locked into X-Scissor is very easy to take advantage of.
also Terrakion can't learn Knock Off, and even if it could Celebi wouldn't care.

Those aren't exclusive to Celebi of course, but it can do these things, all the while walling a pretty large portion of the metagame. You're not using Celebi as a dedicated SubSeeder or a dedicated Healing Wish user, there's no such thing. You're using it primarily as a wall, but that can also subpass/heal bell/perish song. Say, for example, you need a SR user that counters Keldeo. Celebi is pretty much your best bet.

If Chesnaught worked better on your team than Celebi, then that's fine, but as an avid user of both Celebi and Chesnaught, I can assure you that Celebi fits on more teams and is more consistently useful in terms of what it beats and the utility it provides. Not that Chesnaught is bad, of course, it's pretty good. But Celebi just has more going for in general and is much easier to put on a team so it makes sense for it to be ranked higher.
When I said T-wave + 3 attacks I meant Thundurus, sorry for the confusion. Indeed, that set on Ferro would be so bad it's not even funny.
OHKO or 2HKO, Azu still wins. The only question is how much damage it's taking in order to win. Besides, anything faster that isn't annihilated by a +6 Aqua jet beats BD Azu, and Azu is ALWAYS within pruority-kill range after a BD, and Celebi is destroyed by Knock Off at +6 so it isn't really a counter to Azu.
If you want a list of stuff that can set up on Ferrothorn, it's every pokemon not weak to its STABs. This includes, say, Ninetales. Whether or not it can pass its boosts acquired by setting up in Ferro is not an influence on its relationship with Ferro.
Scarf Rotom-W sucks, but Specs Rotom-W does not. There is a reason specs Celebi is not viable, and getting tricked specs hurts it a lot.
tbh, even the ones that Celebi actually can boost on can fill their jobs, because at the end of the day, if Celebi has to kill Rotom-W ASAP instead of setting up for fear of getting crippled, it is still unable to fulfil its task.
While you're right that a dedicated Healing wish user is nonexistant, other sets like Nastypass or Subseed dictate Celebi's playstyle. The problem Celebi has is the same that has crippled it for a while; most of the things it is supposed to counter have a coverage move that hits it super-effectively. That isn't to say that it is bad, it just isn't worth the A rank in my opinion.

im on mobile sorry but

yeah but like, its bulk isnt as good as ur selling it. keep in mind it has 50 base hp. thats hella bad for a defensive mon. but, take mega sableye. it has 50 base hp, but its able to take hits cause of its ability. diancie is outlclassed as a defensive mon by... most defensive mons, has a shit speed, and outclassed by mega diancie in pretty much every way except maybe as a trick room setter that can set up rocks.

also venus fine where it is. its lost a lot on stall but its better and an unprepared for threat when used offensively.
What are you saying, Magic Bounce in no way helps M-Sableye take hits better, it lets it beat stall while avoiding Taunt. The reason Sableye takes hits better than Diancie is that it has few weaknesses. Despite this, the niche of being the bulkiest viable rock setter with some offensive power is surely enough to bump Diancie to C.
 
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