Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[AM]

Well the thing is, is that Jolly TFlame to counteract Raikou and others and has become as a standard so to speak so Hippowdon isn't the only indicator of problems that Raikou has had to cope with. It also comes along with the fact that I noticed trending is that offensive pivots get sort of exaggerated in some instances simply because they are able to grab some momentum with Volt Switch or U-Turn at times. Obviously you'd have to look at all the others traits they have as well but I haven't seen it used in practice on a level of say, Jirachi or Celebi for instances, if we're talking about just basic effectiveness. I know some people wanted it to rise but not entirely convinced yet.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

why do people think raikou's only set is ass vest? it has cm volt and specs too.

 

[Forte9686]

why do people think raikou's only set is ass vest? it has cm volt and specs too.

No need to jump to conclusions, as CM and Specs have been mentioned numerous times in this threads history as valid options. I think we all agree that Raikou isn't a one trick pony.

 

[Talpr0ne]

Alriiiiiight, college ended way early today, time to get my thoughts out on a couple things here.

First off, the little controversy over these two. To start, I'd like to say that a rise of Raikou to A- is way, way overdue for reasons stated many, many times. But aside from that, my stance is that wherever these two get moved, the other should be one sub-rank away from it at most. This is because in general, I find them to be extremely similar Pokémon with very similar roles, but unlike Megacham and Megalade where one clearly outclasses the other and the other just has one or two little niches to sort of justify it's placement, Raikou and Mega Man have enough advantages and disadvantages to each other to be balanced out in my opinion. Now, if Mega Man didn't take up the Mega slot, my honest feeling is that it would be the better Pokémon. Things have been mentioned about it's inferior bulk, but honestly, Intimidate more than makes up for it and it's special bulk is irrelevant when Birdspam's extent of special offence is... Mega Pidgeot? Fuckin'... Talonflame Fire Blast? lel. It's faster, has more power behind it's attacks, has an obviously much better ability, and arguably Flamethrower is generally better than Shadow Ball. Raikou, on the other hand, does not take up the Mega Slot and can hold an item, which is crucial to it's success. Ass Vest Ass Best, a wise man once said, and the Scarf sets really aren't anything to scoff at either. It still has similar power and sort of enough speed (though obviously it can't really get by anything between 115 and 135), which does let it outspeed the new 110 Megas. At the end of the day, I find they fill the same niche while providing different, unique qualities which essentially makes them the same Pokémon. I say A- for both.

I think I'm the only one who's an asshole to this as much as Alexwolf lol. Personally, I'm thinking it should move down to C. My reasoning for this generally goes along the lines of it seeming more comparable to the Pokémon in C than the ones in C+. What I personally see in C+ is that while they're generally ineffective compared to A-ranked 'mon, it contains Pokémon which have a lot of unique niches and qualities that no other Pokémon can really claim. Staraptor is a Birdspam wallbreaker, Camerupt is a fantastic Trick Room abuser, Ampharos is a great tank, Dragalge and Serperior... well, fuck, they're just godly. Compared to those... would you really put this outclassed thing on the same level as them, especially with so many other wallbreakers existing now aside from just being outclassed by Gallade, and then you've got Slowbro and Sableye on top of that? Hell, it's main STAB is completely torn to shreds by Protect and the aforementioned Sableye switch-in. Now the Pokémon in C rank? They seem to be the level 'Cham is on now. Mega Aggron and Blastoise who are decent Pokémon by themselves, but are generally outclassed by other Megas or hell even normal Pokémon in their roles, yet they still have good, defined niches to keep them there. You've even got a base 100 speed Mega with ridiculous power and frail defences there that's brilliant for wallbreaking yet generally outclassed; sound familiar? At the end of the day I just can't see Mega Cham on the level of Mega Pidgeot. Make it roomies with Glalie in C.

I'm just being a really horrible person to Megas today. B+ Rank for both. The reasons for this are along the same lines as my reasoning for 'Cham - to me, the S and A ranks seem to consist of Pokémon that are the best of the best in OU; the ones you either pick first for your team, or are the premier choices as teammates. The absolute best staples on multiple playstyles. While Hera may have been this in the post-Aegis XY Meta, can anyone honestly tell me these two fit those 'best staples' definitions now? Don't get me wrong, what they do is fantastic, but they are so limited in their roles and would not be the first choice for a player imo. Heracross is generally outclassed by Gallade and such as a wallbreaker these days, and with the speed creep it finds it hard to keep up, not to mention it's not as good against stall anymore because lolsableye. Fucking hell, who ever thought that one little beat-brawly gimmick would be such a force in the OU meta... meanwhile, Latiasite is a very specific, specialized set that's only good for a few teams, and takes away Latias, which I honestly find to be one of the defining Pokémon on Balance, a very versatile and unique threat which offers so much to a lot of teams and has been a staple for four gens now. ... two gens, it was banned in gen 4, wasn't it? Regardless, I suppose what I'm trying to say here is that these two suffer a lot from opportunity cost; Heracronite because you've got a lot of better options for physical mega wallbreakers now, and Latiasite because you can't use Latias, one of the best Pokémon on Balance. However, they still have their defined uses and they're still brilliant Pokémon, hence B+ seems the best fit for them.


On another note; I feel I'm being swayed towards these rises.

A+ --> S

C+ --> B-

C+ --> B-

I feel I'd generally support all three; but I think I'd need more convincing on Clefable.
Also start using the correct Cobalion sprite that's right here plz.


Alas, poor Blue S-rank, I knew him OU; a fellow of infinite borked, of most excellent colour; he hath limited mine teambuilding a thousand times; and now, how abhorringly balanced and varied it is! My heart hurts at it. Here hung that blueness that I have joked of I know not how oft. Where be your power now? Your Brokenness? Your stagnant metagame? Your infinite hues of blue, that were wont to set the table on a roar?

In my opinion Heracross is much better than Gallade against stall because it can actually do something to staples such as Mega Sableye, Clefable and the various bulky Psychics.

252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 185-225 (60.8 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 400-480 (101.5 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 175-210 (44.4 - 53.2%) -- approx. 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 280-340 (71 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

while the best Gallade can do to them is
252 Atk Mega Gallade Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 53-63 (17.4 - 20.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mega Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 138-163 (35 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (lol a neutral Rock Blast is more powerful than a neutral STAB Zen Headbutt)
252 Atk Mega Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 170-202 (43.1 - 51.2%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Gallade Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 80-96 (20.3 - 24.3%) -- 76.6% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock

Hell, even a neutral Pin Missile is only a little bit less powerful than a supereffective Zen Headbutt from Mega Gallade, just to show how massive the power difference is beetween the two
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 185-225 (48.6 - 59.2%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 198-234 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Gallade is much faster than Heracross, but you don't need blazing speed against stall, and if you need something that can outspeed relevant offensive threats such as Keldeo and Landorus-I then I wonder why you're not using Mega Lopunny instead, which is faster even with an Adamant Nature(pretty important since she can outspeed and OHKO stuff such as Latios, Gengar, Starmie, Raikou, Tornadus-T and unboosted Hawlucha which can prey on Gallade) has completely unresisted STAB coverage, fancy tricks such as Fake Out, SubPass or Encore up the wazoo, actually resists Dark meaning it is a significantly more effective Bisharp check, and can deal with Mega Sableye easily. To me, Mega Gallade just seems an akward compromise beetween Heracross and Lopunny, and while I'm not sure on if Heracross should move up or down, I'm definitely sure that Gallade should not be above it.

 

[DouglasFalcon]

In my opinion Heracross is much better than Gallade against stall because it can actually do something to staples such as Mega Sableye, Clefable and the various bulky Psychics.

252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 185-225 (60.8 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 400-480 (101.5 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 175-210 (44.4 - 53.2%) -- approx. 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 280-340 (71 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

while the best Gallade can do to them is
252 Atk Mega Gallade Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 53-63 (17.4 - 20.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mega Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 138-163 (35 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (lol a neutral Rock Blast is more powerful than a neutral STAB Zen Headbutt)
252 Atk Mega Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 170-202 (43.1 - 51.2%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Gallade Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 80-96 (20.3 - 24.3%) -- 76.6% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock

Hell, even a neutral Pin Missile is only a little bit less powerful than a supereffective Zen Headbutt from Mega Gallade, just to show how massive the power difference is beetween the two
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 185-225 (48.6 - 59.2%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 198-234 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Gallade is much faster than Heracross, but you don't need blazing speed against stall, and if you need something that can outspeed relevant offensive threats such as Keldeo and Landorus-I then I wonder why you're not using Mega Lopunny instead, which is faster even with an Adamant Nature(pretty important since she can outspeed and OHKO stuff such as Latios, Gengar, Starmie, Raikou, Tornadus-T and unboosted Hawlucha which can prey on Gallade) has completely unresisted STAB coverage, fancy tricks such as Fake Out, SubPass or Encore up the wazoo, actually resists Dark meaning it is a significantly more effective Bisharp check, and can deal with Mega Sableye easily. To me, Mega Gallade just seems an akward compromise beetween Heracross and Lopunny, and while I'm not sure on if Heracross should move up or down, I'm definitely sure that Gallade should not be above it.

I partially agree with this, Gallade and Heracross just have different roles
Heracross is a very bulky wallbreaker wich has a favorable matchup vs the biggest stall staples (saving burns, but Gallade has that deal as well lol)
Gallade, instead, is and amazing cleaner with pretty good 3 moves coverage and a lot of supportive/coverage/boosing options, making it good against balanced team and some king of HO as well
I still think that Gallade is actually better than Heracross tho, because Gallade lacks too common weaknesses and low speed wich plague Heracross' effectiveness, while still having the bulk to tank some neutral hits and score 2hkos that Heracross wouldn't be able to do.
Heracross is not bad, it's just in the wrong metagame atm

 

[WideTomato]

(A+) --> S

All right I actually think it’s time for keldeo to move back up to S. I know it have moved down just recently, but with greninja leaving the tier, keldeo really shines through as a great powerhouse for offence and balance.


Keldeo is just one of those Pokémon that is really fucking consistently good against any playstyle. Its water/fighting type gives it really good stap coverage, allowing it to hit most of the metagame for neutral stab damage, while coverage moves, though weak, can allow it to get past its otherwise counters, and even without it, scalds 30% burn chance is also really nice, crippling its checks on the switching. Keldeo is just so freaking versatile its not even fun, and it is often able to wear down its checks and counters all by itself, with coverage, burns, or just high damage even for a resisted attack.


All keldeo's commonly used sets can put in a ton of work; scarf is a very reliable revenge kille, outspeeding almost the entire scarfed meta (only one i can think of who outspeeds is latios) its specs set just very strong in general, taking at least 70% off of most pokemon on offence, while also being able to 2hko pretty much all pokemon on stall and balance, with the right move. Keldeo can also make use of life orb as an all-out attacker, making it extremely hard to play around for any play style.


The set I especially think pushes it towards S is the sub cm set, which is really underprepared for at the moment. The presure this thing puts at you is insane, and you really need a strong check to not lose a pokemon to it. Sub cm keldeo can find a lot of opportunities to set up against stall and balance, getting an almost free switchin against the likes of ferrothorn (which will often go for sr, if they are not up) heatran, and skarmory. This set specially puts pressure on the protect variants, as they will often scout for ''choiced'' keldeos move. Sub cm keldeo can without much effort 6-0 a lot of stall teams, and easily get past a couple of walls againt balanced teams. Sub cm is still amazing against offensive teams, as it still acts as a check to the likes of bisharp, mega dos and tyranitar and forces then out, giving it a free substitute. In the current metagame sub cm keldeo pretty much gives you a reliable answer to rain too, being able to set up on ferrothorn, politoad and manaphy, then proceed to do great damage with rain boosted scalds and powerfull secret swords.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

There is just way too much common stuff that counters keldeo that is relatively common:
Latias, Latios, Celebi, Amoongus, Slowbro, Mega Altaria, Mega Venusaur

Also the plethora of things that check/revenge it:
Scarf-Lando, Megagrossm Mega Lopunny, Gyarados, Azumarill, Mega Sceptile, Tornadus, T, Chestnaught, Mega Aerodactyl, Talonflame, Gengar, Megaman, Raikou, Serperior, Hawlucha, Thunderus, Clefable, Rotom-W, Manaphy, Scarf Magenzone, Cresselia, Dragonite, Sylveon, Alomomola, Slowking, Starmie, Tentacruel, and Gourgeist

Also Keldeo checked greninja and has now lost that niche. A good A+ mon, but most teams have an answer for it.

 

[Vinc608]

You don't understand the point of the paragraph of WideTomato. Basically, Keldeo has a lot of counters but the ability to weaken his check is just awesome. It is able to pressure his counters / check with ScaldBurn. The only thing who can reliably switch into Keldeo without fearing the Scald burn is Celebi. I think Keldeo should stay in A+, but not because it has a lot of checks.

 

[WideTomato]

There is just way too much common stuff that counters keldeo that is relatively common:
Latias, Latios, Celebi, Amoongus, Slowbro, Mega Altaria, Mega Venusaur

Also the plethora of things that check/revenge it:
Scarf-Lando, Megagrossm Mega Lopunny, Gyarados, Azumarill, Mega Sceptile, Tornadus, T, Chestnaught, Mega Aerodactyl, Talonflame, Gengar, Megaman, Raikou, Serperior, Hawlucha, Thunderus, Clefable, Rotom-W, Manaphy, Scarf Magenzone, Cresselia, Dragonite, Sylveon, Alomomola, Slowking, Starmie, Tentacruel, and Gourgeist

Also Keldeo checked greninja and has now lost that niche. A good A+ mon, but most teams have an answer for it.

Latis can be dealt with, with specs icy wind, slowbro can not take two hydro pumps from specs, and crobro flat out looses to sub cm. and even these counters hate burns, which has a rather high possibility of happening on switchin, considering you spam scald a lot of the time.

As for the checks, they only (most of them that is) check one or two specific sets.
Scarf lando: can't ohko, looses to scarf
Mega meta: needs to be mega evolved to outspeed, takes a gigantic chunk and fears burn, really can't switch in to stab.
Mega loop: looses to scarf
Gyarados: looses to Hp Electrick, fears burns, sub+dd and taunt+dd can't really touch keld either
Azu: fears burns
Sceptile: don't appreciate scarf, takes large chunk from secret sword, dies to ice.
Torn-t: can't really switch into water moves, LO gets 2hkoed by scarf.
Chesnaught: takes good chunk, needs grass type coverage to really beat it.
Aero: loses to scarf
Talon: loses if keld is behind a sub
Gengar loses to all kelds sets dude n_n
Mega man: needs to be mega, looses to scarf
Raikyo: can lose to scarf
Serperior: keld can't really beat it, ok
Hawk: needs to have unburden activated
Thund: don't like scarf
Fable: loses to specs and cm
Rotom: takes gigantic chunk from specs can't check well after a cm at all
Manaphy: loses to cm and specs
Zone: scarf
Cress: really rare, can't check very well after a cm boost.
Dnite: hates to switch in and break multiscale
Sylveon: well, keld ain't doing nothing in against that
Alo: how is that a check, it literally loses to both hp electric, scald burns and sub cm.
Tenta: loses to sub cm.

My point is, Keldeo have a lot of versatility and is very easy to slap on a team. Not to mention most of its counters are really easy to remove, as keld works well on sand, which as TTar for Latis, and it's also good alongside bisharp. If your check can't switch into a specks hydro pump, you're going to have a bad time! Chanses are, of your opponent gets keld in against bish, and you have a slowbro on your team, keldeo will fire of a powerful hydro pump to 2hko your check. Every pokemon have checks and counters, and some of yours are rediculous! If you use the same "this mon have checks lol" to justify something not moving up, there would not be anything in the s-rank tier.

 

[Clone]

Tbh I don't feel that Keldeo is S rank worthy. Just like in XY, it's really in a limbo where it's one of the best A+ mons, but worse than all of S rank. My main problem with Keldeo is that its checks are very prominent in the meta and every team has at least one, if not more of these, and Keldeo has very few options to get past these. Outside of its STABs, it has: HP Electric, HP Bug, Icy Wind, HP Flying. That's pretty barren, and all of them are pretty weak (for reference, none of these except Specs HP Electric can OHKO their targets, and some even avoid the 2HKO lol). Now this really only applies to Choice sets, but the matter of the fact is that every competent team has answers to Keldeo and can take advantage of it being locked into the wrong move. Yes, I'm aware that Scald has a 99% burn chance, but many of the things that switch into Scald can still beat Keldeo even when burned. Yes, it does help teammates take care of them, but the fact that Keldeo can't get past these even after he burns them is a flaw that I can't see an S rank mon having. All the other S ranks either have ways to get past their Checks / Counters (Metagross, Lopunny), or have much more versatility that falls under team support (Mega Sab, Lando-T) where having common checks / counters is less of an issue. I don't see Keldeo really supporting the team (as it's an offensive mon used for its offensive presence), and Keldeo really doesn't have much to get past it's checks. It's a great A+ mon, but it's not S worthy (and never was in XY either tbh).

I'll touch more on the LO and CM sets later, but I just wanted to post my thoughts on this issue now.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

I don't think keldeo is worthy of S just quite yet. The greninja ban just gave him one less thing to check, scarf keldeo is pretty much there for lando-t only now. That was one of his better niches over the latitwins, revenge killing and checking nonextrasensory greninjas.

The other sets don't really do much that the lati twins wouldn't do better. base 108 isn't enough when mega metagross outspeeds and murders you with zen headbutt as well as gallade and the other latitwins.

 

[WideTomato]

The other sets don't really do much that the lati twins wouldn't do better. base 108 isn't enough when mega metagross outspeeds and murders you with zen headbutt as well as gallade and the other latitwins.

what exactly does the lati twins do better? You might be able to compare the two, and conclude the Latis are better overall, but these two mons are so different you couldn't say one does anything "better"

 

[heritage]

Although I agree with Keldeo being S, something in that paragraph really bothered me.

My point is, Keldeo have a lot of versatility and is very easy to slap on a team.

Just because something can be slapped onto basically any team alone doesn't make it S rank. Look at Latios. That moved down to A+ when it's on so many teams on the ladder. Usage =/= Ranking.
Keldeo isn't too versatile either. It can really only run CM and Specs (Since Scarf really isn't too good. I mean, it's not awful, but there are things that are better for a Scarf slot.). Its movepool is literal ass, since it doesn't get Ice Beam and Icy Wind is horrible, and you basically have to run a Hidden Power to efficiently beat all of its checks. I mean, all it really needs is Scald, HP and Secret Sword, but still.
Although, Keldeo does deserve S rank on it's own just because of the Specs set.
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 237-280 (77.9 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Like holy crap
I'll write up a better paragraph later on for some other things, but here are things I'll write about later.
Clefable stays in A+, Serperior stays in C+, M-Chomp to B, M-Altaria to S (Yes, I'm serious. I'll explain when I have more time.), M-Absol to C+.

 

[SaberSeven]

With the advent of the Greninja ban, I can see Clefable rising up to S rank.


S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits

Clefable has a versatile movepool packing Calm Mind, Wish, Aromatherapy/Heal Bell, Thunder Wave, Stealth Rock, and many other options, two great abilities in Unaware & Magic Guard, and can beat M-Sableye & Mega Lopunny both of which are S-Ranked Mons

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 153-180 (38.8 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Lopunny: 204-242 (75.2 - 89.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

0 SpA Mega Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 82-97 (20.8 - 24.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery (Provided Calm Mind set, but this is the move that M-Sableye hits Clefable the hardest because let's face it; Dark Pulse, Knock Off, & Foul Play are gonna be doing nothing to this thing)

0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 174-206 (57.2 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Yes; Mega Metagross & Heatran still give Clefable issues, but Clefable is still a Pokemon that can be used as a very solid glue for cleric/Wish support as well as an efficient Calm Mind sweeper which is why I believe Clefable should be boosted to S rank.

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

Just want to comment on this since I've seen a few people mention it.

Serperior cannot get past Chansey without knockoff. +6 leafstorm being able to 2hko doesn't really mean much when it will get crippled by twave or stalled out by toxic.

It does get Taunt too but yeah it will kinda need Taunt + Synthesis/GigaDrain/Leech Seed to not die to Seismic Toss spam, which isn't really a viable set probably.

Knock Off as 4th move is a lot more useful.


Tentacruel might well do work vs defensive fairies but it doesn't do all that well vs Specs Sylveon:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 119-141 (32.9 - 39%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Psyshock vs. 240 HP / 244+ Def Tentacruel: 242-286 (67 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

 

[Kurona]

The problem with Raikou is out of the three sets mentioned in this thread, 2 of them are just Entei's and suicune's sets that have been repurposed to fit Raikou. The only one that is truly Raikou's set is the specs set.

That... doesn't really matter if they're effective on Raikou.

 

[Jojobobo]

Serperior, a guaranteed S (maybe S+) surely? In terms of sweeping it does it extremely well, being able to boost and attack in a single very strong STAB and having a very respectable speed tier - being out-speeded by only Talonflame, Weavile, Alakazam, Starmie, Raikou, Noivern, Dugtrio, Hawlucha and Tornadus-T (9 pokemon) in terms of non-megas who are OU relevant and Houndoom, Pigeot, Lopunny, Manectric, Sceptile, Beedrill and Aerodactyl in terms of mega evolutions.

Leaf Storm as mentioned is obviously the huge selling point of the set alongside Contrary, turning a hugely damaging STAB attack into a boosting move at the same time - Contrary also being great at capitalising on Sticky Web and stat "drops" from moves like Shadow Ball. In terms of what Leaf Storm can do, even without a Life Orb, let's have a look:

Hide

+2 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 135-160 (44.8 - 53.1%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 141-167 (48.4 - 57.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 300-354 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO

I would provide more calcs but that's showing two bulky resists and one special wall, which honestly feels like enough (sure Chansey could run a + special defense nature, but that really compromises it on the physical side). Further, the ability to boost and attack is pretty huge; imagine most special sweepers against Chansey who can break through after boosts, ordinarily they would have to boost to reach a point where they can 2HKO whilst Chansey can start racking up damage with Seismic Toss or Toxic. This is not the case with Serperior, denying Chansey the opportunity to recover in the face of it's onslaught. It also makes switching in the face of Serperior extremely dangerous, as things that happily can counter it unboosted can often find themselves 2HKOed by a combination of Leaf Storm followed by good coverage.

After Leaf Storm, then you have this coverage - which whilst rather weak unboosted is more than enough to put on the pressure at the +2 mark. Dragon Pulse has great synergy with Leaf Storm, hitting any dragon who resists Storm for super effective damage and providing great neutral coverage (not that Serperior really needs it, with resisted Leaf Storm out-damaging neutral Dragon Pulse). The type that resists both grass in dragon is steel, giving you the fairly easy option of either running HP Fire (Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Scizor) or HP Ground (Heatran) for coverage - which depending on your team should be a pretty easy decision.

In the last move slot, you have plenty of options. Substitute eases prediction with Serperior's great speed, can protect from Toxic and Thunder Wave and can allow it to remain safe in the face of a dangerous switch. Giga Drain, Leech Seed and Synthesis can all offer recovery. Glare allows you to paralyse even ground types like Landorus-T on the switch. Knock Off removes items, particularly Scarves of things hoping they might be able to out speed and not be OHKOed as they come in. Gastro Acid allows you to remove abilities which, though situational, can allow you to remove Unaware, Sap Sipper and Gale Wings to name but a few - it also eases switches into offensive pokemon like mega Lopunny (an easy ghost switch-in without Scrappy). Taunt can stop both recovery and status moves. Dragon Tail can phaze counters and rack up Stealth Rock residual damage. Toxic can again be used to get through checks like Unaware Clefable. A screen can be set on a switch to allow one of your counters (maybe something that would only be a check without the screen) to easily switch in.

The main reason why I think it could be S+ is that it even has perfectly valid stall sets. Leaf Storm/Leech Seed/Protect/Substitute with 252 HP and Leftovers is great at stalling once grass types are gone whilst still retaining it's ability as an offensive threat. What does everyone else think? Sorry if most of this was already covered previously, but I didn't see it in the last few pages.

 

[AM]

Serperior, a guaranteed S (maybe S+) surely? In terms of sweeping it does it extremely well, being able to boost and attack in a single very strong STAB and having a very respectable speed tier - being out-speeded by only Talonflame, Weavile, Alakazam, Starmie, Raikou, Noivern, Dugtrio, Hawlucha and Tornadus-T (9 pokemon) in terms of non-megas who are OU relevant and Houndoom, Pigeot, Lopunny, Manectric, Sceptile, Beedrill and Aerodactyl in terms of mega evolutions.

Leaf Storm as mentioned is obviously the huge selling point of the set alongside Contrary, turning a hugely damaging STAB attack into a boosting move at the same time - Contrary also being great at capitalising on Sticky Web and stat "drops" from moves like Shadow Ball. In terms of what Leaf Storm can do, even without a Life Orb, let's have a look:

Hide

+2 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 135-160 (44.8 - 53.1%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 141-167 (48.4 - 57.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 300-354 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO

I would provide more calcs but that's showing two bulky resists and one special wall, which honestly feels like enough (sure Chansey could run a + special defense nature, but that really compromises it on the physical side). Further, the ability to boost and attack is pretty huge; imagine most special sweepers against Chansey who can break through after boosts, ordinarily they would have to boost to reach a point where they can 2HKO whilst Chansey can start racking up residual damage on the other hand with Seismic Toss or Toxic. This is not the case with Serperior, denying Chansey the opportunity to recover in the face of it's onslaught. It also makes switching in the face of Serperior extremely dangerous, as things that happily can counter it unboosted can often find themselves 2HKOed by a combination of Leaf Storm followed by good coverage.

After Leaf Storm, then you have coverage - which whilst rather weak unboosted is more than enough to put on the pressure at the +2 mark. Dragon Pulse has great synergy with Leaf Storm, hitting all any dragon who resists Storm for super effective damage and providing great neutral coverage (not that Serperior really needs it, with resisted Leaf Storm out-damaging neutral Dragon Pulse). The type that resists both grass in dragon is steel, giving you the fairly easy option of either running HP Fire (Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Scizor) or HP Ground (Heatran) for coverage - which depending on your team should be a pretty easy decision.

In your move slot, you have plenty of options. Substitute eases prediction with Serperior's great speed, can protect from Toxic and Thunder Wave and can allow it to remain safe in the face of a dangerous switch. Giga Drain, Leech Seed and Synthesis can all offer recovery. Glare allows you to paralyse even ground types like Landorus-T on the switch. Knock Off removes items, particularly Scarves of things hoping they might be able to out speed and not be OHKOed as they come in. Gastro Acid allows you to remove abilities which, though situational, can allow you to do things like breeze past an Unaware Clefable. Taunt can stop any non-attacking, particularly recovery, moves. Dragon Tail can phaze counters and rack up Stealth Rock residual damage. Toxic can again be used to get through checks like Unaware Clefable. A screen can be set on a switch.

The main reason why I think it could be S+ is that it even has perfectly valid stall sets. Leaf Storm/Leech Seed/Protect/Substitute with 252 HP and Leftovers is great at stalling once grass types are gone whilst still retaining it's ability as an offensive threat. What does everyone else think? Sorry if most of this was already covered previously, but I didn't see it in the last few pages.

S rank is waaaaay too high. Read previous posts to see why. Responding to this so people dont come at you with pitchforks and go insane over this nomination. But yeah read back some older posts man.

 

[SaberSeven]

Serperior, a guaranteed S (maybe S+) surely? In terms of sweeping it does it extremely well, being able to boost and attack in a single very strong STAB and having a very respectable speed tier - being out-speeded by only Talonflame, Weavile, Alakazam, Starmie, Raikou, Noivern, Dugtrio, Hawlucha and Tornadus-T (9 pokemon) in terms of non-megas who are OU relevant and Houndoom, Pigeot, Lopunny, Manectric, Sceptile, Beedrill and Aerodactyl in terms of mega evolutions.

Leaf Storm as mentioned is obviously the huge selling point of the set alongside Contrary, turning a hugely damaging STAB attack into a boosting move at the same time - Contrary also being great at capitalising on Sticky Web and stat "drops" from moves like Shadow Ball. In terms of what Leaf Storm can do, even without a Life Orb, let's have a look:

Hide

+2 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 135-160 (44.8 - 53.1%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 141-167 (48.4 - 57.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 300-354 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO

I would provide more calcs but that's showing two bulky resists and one special wall, which honestly feels like enough (sure Chansey could run a + special defense nature, but that really compromises it on the physical side). Further, the ability to boost and attack is pretty huge; imagine most special sweepers against Chansey who can break through after boosts, ordinarily they would have to boost to reach a point where they can 2HKO whilst Chansey can start racking up damage with Seismic Toss or Toxic. This is not the case with Serperior, denying Chansey the opportunity to recover in the face of it's onslaught. It also makes switching in the face of Serperior extremely dangerous, as things that happily can counter it unboosted can often find themselves 2HKOed by a combination of Leaf Storm followed by good coverage.

After Leaf Storm, then you have coverage - which whilst rather weak unboosted is more than enough to put on the pressure at the +2 mark. Dragon Pulse has great synergy with Leaf Storm, hitting all any dragon who resists Storm for super effective damage and providing great neutral coverage (not that Serperior really needs it, with resisted Leaf Storm out-damaging neutral Dragon Pulse). The type that resists both grass in dragon is steel, giving you the fairly easy option of either running HP Fire (Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Scizor) or HP Ground (Heatran) for coverage - which depending on your team should be a pretty easy decision.

In your move slot, you have plenty of options. Substitute eases prediction with Serperior's great speed, can protect from Toxic and Thunder Wave and can allow it to remain safe in the face of a dangerous switch. Giga Drain, Leech Seed and Synthesis can all offer recovery. Glare allows you to paralyse even ground types like Landorus-T on the switch. Knock Off removes items, particularly Scarves of things hoping they might be able to out speed and not be OHKOed as they come in. Gastro Acid allows you to remove abilities which, though situational, can allow you to do things like breeze past an Unaware Clefable. Taunt can stop any non-attacking, particularly recovery, moves. Dragon Tail can phaze counters and rack up Stealth Rock residual damage. Toxic can again be used to get through checks like Unaware Clefable. A screen can be set on a switch.

The main reason why I think it could be S+ is that it even has perfectly valid stall sets. Leaf Storm/Leech Seed/Protect/Substitute with 252 HP and Leftovers is great at stalling once grass types are gone whilst still retaining it's ability as an offensive threat. What does everyone else think? Sorry if most of this was already covered previously, but I didn't see it in the last few pages.

The problem with Serperior is that although it has a stellar base 113 speed stat, Glare, and practically a Base 130 Nasty Plot in Contrary Leaf Storm, it's very weak right off the bat. Grass typing isn't that good offensively to force switches as it hits few things viable in the OU tier for super effective damage. On top of that, there are many mons that resist Leaf Storm that Serperior needs a Hidden Power to beat such as Heatran, Bisharp, Mega Venusaur, Mega Altaria, Mega Metagross, (Mega) Scizor, Jirachi, and so on. I can see Serperior being B-, but at this point, no higher than that.

 

[Prinz]

Just wanted to say that I support Tentacruel rising, it's still a threat now that Greninja went to Ubers, to be honest it's even better because things like Azumarill, Altaria and Clefable will rise in usage, and all these mons have a bad day vs Tentacruel, and I support regular Gardevoir to D rank too, as I think it can perform as a decent Choice Scarf user + it has some nice support moves like Healing Wish.

Also I have seen a post about Travenant in D rank, tbn I have never used / faced it in any serious game, so maybe if someone can bring some real niches it has to be D rank, that would be nice, othrerwise I think that we should keep it unranked.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

what exactly does the lati twins do better? You might be able to compare the two, and conclude the Latis are better overall, but these two mons are so different you couldn't say one does anything "better"

Latitwins hit harder, have many more niches such as defog, a speed tier decent enough to speed tie some of the faster threats, recovery, and nice coverage. If you want to run a sub+CM keldeo latias is around the corner with better speed and recovery. The only thing keldeo has over the latitwins is dark resistance meaning no pursuit trapping, and before greninja was banned.. keldeo was effective at coming in on it with scarf, killing greninja or nailing a switch in with a super strong STAB move. Without greninja keldeo doesn't have as much use over the eons outside typing syngery with certain teams. He doesn't switch into much outside of greninjas who foregoed extrasensory in this meta and that's exactly what was removed.. turning keldeo into more of a momentum killer/dead weight depending on team match up.

 

[astroboy]

Latitwins hit harder, have many more niches such as defog, a speed tier decent enough to speed tie some of the faster threats, recovery, and nice coverage. If you want to run a sub+CM keldeo latias is around the corner with better speed and recovery. The only thing keldeo has over the latitwins is dark resistance meaning no pursuit trapping, and before greninja was banned.. keldeo was effective at coming in on it with scarf, killing greninja or nailing a switch in with a super strong STAB move. Without greninja keldeo doesn't have as much use over the eons outside typing syngery with certain teams. He doesn't switch into much outside of greninjas who foregoed extrasensory in this meta and that's exactly what was removed.. turning keldeo into more of a momentum killer/dead weight depending on team match up.

how the hell are the latis and keldeo similar

 

[RoseColoredCampusLife]

I really can't see serperior being much higher than B or B- because its movepool is so limited and its special attack is so low that it needs to use a leaf storm before attempting to sweep. Also grass is such a bad offensive typing, especially in OU, where pretty much every team has multiple grass resists.

 

[BenTheDemon]

I'd like to nominate Emboar for C.

This thread explains a lot: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/emboar.3524715/

If you don't feel like reading the thread, basically it is a pretty good Wallbreaker with no reliable Defensive checks. It can also viably run different items including Band, Scarf, and Expert Belt.

I really can't see serperior being much higher than B or B- because its movepool is so limited and its special attack is so low that it needs to use a leaf storm before attempting to sweep. Also grass is such a bad offensive typing, especially in OU, where pretty much every team has multiple grass resists.

Aside from Heatran and Talonflame, after a few Contrary Boosts, Grass Resistance doesn't mean all that much, since after two Leaf Storms, it's the close to hitting a Supereffective Leaf Storm at +0. Also, Dragon Pulse takes care of those Dragons after a Contrary Boost.

I could see Serperior hitting B+ or A-.

 

[Kurona]

I'd like to nominate Emboar for C.

This thread explains a lot: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/emboar.3524715/

If you don't feel like reading the thread, basically it is a pretty good Wallbreaker with no reliable Defensive checks. It can also viably run different items including Band, Scarf, and Expert Belt.

Reckless Emboar isn't released yet. Wait until... I think it's Friday it comes out?