Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[AM]

A->A+ People talking shit about this monster need to stop lol. This thing is one of the most annoying mons in the entire ou tier. If you lack a mon that has a STAB Super effective special move, you will have a fuckload of trouble against hippo. Its honestly so effective at what it does and has very few flaws that can be taken advantage of, a solid attack stat prevents mons from setting up on it, Slack off allows it to keep consistently healthy, stealth rock for support, the list goes on. Super effective hidden powers barely dent it, meaning it's not just an amazing physical wall to some of the most threatening mons in the tier atm but also able to go toe-to-toe with some dangerous special attackers, including Megaman, Thundurus and Gengar. I honestly find myself using hippo so much more than I do Ttar as a sand setter just because Ttar is so situational and has limited switchin opportunities. Hippo on the other hand is able to switch in on a large portion of the tier almost effortlessly and do whatever it wants. People dont really prepare for Hippo either and since its really hard to wear down thanks to Slack off it ends up just sitting there as a thorn in the side of the opponent. Honestly it should move up, sand is still as dangerous as even and Hippo is at the forefront of it. Unfortunately I lack any replays that show hippo off but Im sure youve seen it before anyway.

Anyone who knows me or has played against me knows that I use Hippowdon a shit load on my teams for its ability to blanket check a bunch of prominent physical attackers and just a solid as hell rock setter. With that said I don't think it should go to A+. It does a solid job of checking a bunch of physical attackers but that match-up against the other side of the spectrum is its undoing along with just being general set up for stuff like Magnet Rise Klefki, Defensive waters, and the way its suppose to check certain set up sweepers is by virtue of its bulk so in a lot of cases you still see things like Zard-X and SD Talonflame being able to cut through Hippowdon late-game as a win condition when taking into the hazard damage and nature of how late-game works. It sort of sucks that the only real counter measure it has to a bunch of the S rank threats are pretty shaky and matchup based as well so you're dancing around Grass Knot M-Metagross, Landorus in general cause even using Ice Fang doesn't net you the necessary kill on it unless you run some sort of attack investment defeating the purpose of Hippo. M-Altaria will just set up on it and dear god please don't end up facing a Cotton Guard variant either. Keldeo is sort of a given granted it isn't exactly a switch-in though but falls under the offensive and defensive waters that basically have a free shot at Scald or Hydro barring the mind-games and double-switches. I think the fact that it has some sort of offensive presence generally but I wouldn't go as far as to say that it's on par with the likes of Clefable if we're talking about overall utility.

As a sand setter, I actually prefer tyranitar more. Hippowdon is really passive, earthquake isn't doing much against any decently bulky pokemon. Tyranitar has lots more utility, such as being able to set up sr, pursuit trap starmie and gengar and the lati twins, and lure in lando-i with ice beam and lure in ferrothorn with fire blast. Once hippo sets up sand and sr it pretty much just sits there taking attacks and using slack off, so it's much more passive than tyranitar. Sand is such an offensive playstyle; hippo is usually too passive for sand offense. I mean if you want two sand setters that's ok, but in most cases I almost always find myself using tyranitar over hippowdon just because hippowdon is too passive and tyranitar has a much better offensive presence and more offensive utility I guess. Also tyranitar can afford to hold smooth rock whereas in most cases hippowdon will usually appreciate leftovers more to constantly switch in on the stuff it's supposed to counter.

But I wouldn't use this as a case to keep Hippowdon A either because in all honesty I would have to disagree. I mean Hippowdon is passive but it's not thaaat passive. Lots of Tyranitars success based on those scenarios is based on how it plays out and the sand setters variant lack of recovery pressures the hell out of opponents to not lose their means of supporting Excadrill while Hippowdon has a bit more leniency due to its recovery. How offensive are we actually talking though? Sand isn't always as offensive as you make it, you either have Sand Offense or Sand Balance and you'll find stuff like Hippowdon and Tyranitar on both based on team needs not the illusion that one vastly surpasses the other. Lol Hippowdon can hold Smooth Rock to and even more so due to its consistent defensive bulk so this isn't really as bad as you make it sound and Hippowdon is more or less going to sustain sand longer on teams than Tyranitar would. Then again I don't think this matters when Ttar + Exca based sand and Hippo + Exca based sand play differently with one utilizing more pressure and the other maintaining a bit more longevity.

Edit: May or may not talk about the other stuff later we'll see.

 

[Eraxxer]

The problem I see with Hippo is that it's got 4MSS pretty badly. You run EQ, SR, Slack Off, then choose between Whirlwind to stop setup sweepers, Ice Fang for the plethora of things 4x weak to it, Stone Edge to actually hit flying types, possibly even Toxic. It gets whittled a lot by volt-turn, and of course by that I just mean U-turn, and there are lots of things that can deal with it very well. Everything in S Rank can deal with it, Meta with Zen Headbutt/Meteor mash on the switch and following up with Grass Knot (you don't even need to predict Hippo's switch if you either have a tiny bit (~10%) of damage or a Spike, or just run a bit of Special Attack) Keldeo wins against Hippo obviously, Lando 2HKOes with Earth Power easily (Ice fang stops it, but again, 4MSS), Mega Altaria can deal with it, setting up on every non Whirlwind set and special sets have a guaranteed 2HKO with Hyper Voice after Rocks.

That's the 4 best mons in OU that all win 1 on 1 in almost every situation. On top of that, it's complete setup bait for Mega Sableye and is a 100% free switch.

The abundance of bulky waters and the rise in Ice types with strong STABs as an answer to Lando-I is even worse for it.

Don't get me wrong, it's still really good. I just don't feel that it's as good as some defensive A+ mons, like Mega Sableye, Gliscor, Lando-T and Clefable. They all have abilities that offer great immediate support to their defensive capabilities. While Hippo's Sand Stream is arguably better than any of Magic Bounce, Intimidate, Magic Guard, Unaware or Poison Heal, it's just not helping Hippo individually. Hell, Tyranitar has the same ability but TTar is actually supported by it with the SpDef boost.

Sure, it provides sand and is amazing at that role, but then again, it can't afford to run Smooth Rock most of the time, as its leftoves turn a lot of 2HKOes into 3HKOes. Tyranitar is usually better here as a sand setter, being faster, a shitload more specially bulky due to being Rock type with sand, much more offensive with mixed capabilities, can run Pursuit. It's a little less phyiscally bulky, but that is one downside to almost everything else being better.

On top of that, it's really weak to Toxic, as it has no way of preventing Toxic and either needs team support to stop it or it's really going to be whittled massively.

TL;DR -
-4MSS
-Beaten by everything in S rank (usually)
-Outclassed as a Sand setter by Tyranitar (usually)
-Ability does not support it immediately defensively as opposed to every defensive A+ mon
-Bulky waters are a huge nuisance to it
-HUGE toxic weakness
-Volt-Turn teams really hurt it (ignore the Volt part)

Now I haven't looked at the pros, which it has a lot of. But I'm arguing that it should stay in A rank, and this is my reasoning for it.

 

[Flamer]

Ive never found ttar to actually do many of the things it should as reliably as you would expect. While sand is primarily an offensive playstyle, it absolutely requires sand to beat speedy teams. Ttar is just way too hard to preserve so that you can actually keep sand up while hippo does it with ease. Also while yeah, there are mons who get past it, the sheer fact that unless you run something able to beat it, you wont be getting past it and even then it's so bulky that you still might not win. Setup sweepers are a problem for virtually every defensive mon, ofc you wont be tanking a +2 Outrage from CharX, there are very few that can, but because its generally a mon you can slap on and immediately have something that beats the majority of physical attackers makes it a worthy candidate for A+.

The fact it gives free switches to water types isnt much of an issue either considering some of the best sand partners are the Lati twins and Celebi. Talking about teammates isnt a very good argument but when it comes down to the sand archetype, those mons are almost as much a part of it as Excadrill, TTar and Hippo are. The fact still remains that its an all round great mon for sand which is on par with several A+ rank mons, Im not fussed either way bc its a borderline case for sure but sand is really good right now and the rankings should reflect that.

 

[Anduril]

I tried to skim through to make sure this poke hadn't already been discussed or blacklisted, but 103 pages is a lot to go through, so I may have missed it.
I'd like to bring Forretress up for discussion for a potential D rank.

Snapple (Forretress) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rapid Spin
- Stealth Rock
- Volt Switch
- Gyro Ball

Now I know you're going to say, "there are better spinners/defoggers out there, it's severely outclassed." And to that I'd say you're correct. You also might say that there are better hazard setters as well. You'd be right there as well. What allows Forretress to shine is his access to hazards, rapid spin, and volt switch. No other pokemon in the game bar Smeargle can learn a combination of rapid spin/defog, stealth rock/spikes/toxic spikes, and volt switch/u-turn.

In addition to a good movepool, Forretress also has great physical bulk and typing granting him 8 resistances, one immunity, and only one weakness. That weakness is 4X fire, which is common coverage, but that is it's one weakness. With full investment in HP and Def, Forretress can eat up attacks from the most common physical attackers (ones lacking fire type coverage) in the tier and proceed to set up rocks or slow volt switch out and let a stronger, frailer poke come in for the kill. Another small plus is that overcoat lets it shit on Brelooms face, or any other powder user.

Here are a few calcs

View attachment 39570



For a little extra umph in this effort, Forretress shits all over DD Mega Altaria (if it lacks fire type coverage)
After two DD's, Mega Altaria can only 3HKO Forretress, and Forretress can OHKO back with gyro ball.
Really any DD user besides Mega Gyrados will be hurt by gyro ball harder and harder the more times they set up.

This is not the only useful set for Forretress, as he has an interesting movepool and access to custap berry, but this set has proved particularly useful for me. Therefore, I think Forretress should be considered viable in OU.


I found some old stuff on Forretress. I agree he is passive, but Forretress is still capable of playing three roles on a single team with a single set. Those roles being a hazard setter, hazard remover, and physical tank. Nobody else in the game can do all three, and then u-turn/volt switch out. While Forretress is passive, he does reliably slow switch out. He ties for the slowest volt switch/u-turn user in the game, meaning he will almost always allow a free switch in.

I don't agree with this, especially with the rise of Custap Skarmory. Custap Skarm can set up Spikes and SR while still threatening with powerful attacks. Forretress can't really do that, because most of the time, its not threatening. It's a free invitation for SubCM Keldeo, SD Chomp, Talonflame, Zards, etc to come in and set up. Yes Forretress has access to Volt Switch, but coming off low SpA it's not going to do anything. Skarmory, Bulky Chomp, and Hippo all outclass Forretress as a SR user, and Starmie and Excadrill outclass it as spinners, due to their ability to actually threaten spinblockers along with other thing. If you want resistances + hazard removal just use Empoleon, and if you want momentum use many of the superior pivots who actually threaten things. Forretress should stay unranked.

 

[ahbelew]

I don't agree with this, especially with the rise of Custap Skarmory. Custap Skarm can set up Spikes and SR while still threatening with powerful attacks. Forretress can't really do that, because most of the time, its not threatening. It's a free invitation for SubCM Keldeo, SD Chomp, Talonflame, Zards, etc to come in and set up. Yes Forretress has access to Volt Switch, but coming off low SpA it's not going to do anything. Skarmory, Bulky Chomp, and Hippo all outclass Forretress as a SR user, and Starmie and Excadrill outclass it as spinners, due to their ability to actually threaten spinblockers along with other thing. If you want resistances + hazard removal just use Empoleon, and if you want momentum use many of the superior pivots who actually threaten things. Forretress should stay unranked.

See how you just said Starmie and Excadrill outclass it as spinners, and Skarm and Chomp outclass it as setters, and it has superior pivoters as well... Kinda my point, no poke can do all three.
Forretress covers several bases with one pokemon, and the volt switch is less about chip damage, and more about bringing in frailer pokes safely, which forretress does very well.

Also, every other poke you just mentioned will be put to sleep by spore, which is not a major significance, but it doesn't hurt to have that immunity.

 

[AM]

See how you just said Starmie and Excadrill outclass it as spinners, and Skarm and Chomp outclass it as setters, and it has superior pivoters as well... Kinda my point, no poke can do all three.

Yeah but the problem is it doesn't actually do any of these well and the set that it does do ok with, its Custap set, is pretty niche to the point that it would be more along the lines of a lower D rank than D and in a lot of cases Skarmory will take that role for itself.

 

[Alfalfa]

See how you just said Starmie and Excadrill outclass it as spinners, and Skarm and Chomp outclass it as setters, and it has superior pivoters as well... Kinda my point, no poke can do all three.
Forretress covers several bases with one pokemon

Just something has a niche does not mean it is viable in the OU metagame. Forretress is considerably passive and is very easy to take advantage of. Considering that Pokemon like Starmie, Excadrill, Skarmory, and Garchomp are staples of the metagame, re-adjusting your team to have three different Pokemon that fill the roles Forretress fulfills is not that difficult.

 

[procrastinat]

I don't agree with this, especially with the rise of Custap Skarmory. Custap Skarm can set up Spikes and SR while still threatening with powerful attacks. Forretress can't really do that, because most of the time, its not threatening. It's a free invitation for SubCM Keldeo, SD Chomp, Talonflame, Zards, etc to come in and set up. Yes Forretress has access to Volt Switch, but coming off low SpA it's not going to do anything. Skarmory, Bulky Chomp, and Hippo all outclass Forretress as a SR user, and Starmie and Excadrill outclass it as spinners, due to their ability to actually threaten spinblockers along with other thing. If you want resistances + hazard removal just use Empoleon, and if you want momentum use many of the superior pivots who actually threaten things. Forretress should stay unranked.

The things Forretress has over Skarmory as a suicide lead is Rapid Spin, which keeps hazards off of your side of the field, and Explosion, which prevents defog from clearing hazards if used with Custap. What Skarmory has is a higher speed tier, taunt, and Brave Bird, which can also prevent defogging if used at 1 hp (but is weaker than forry's Explosion). Forretress also has Toxic Spikes to replace Spikes if you so choose. IMO the things Forry has over Skarm are enough for D rank, but no higher.

 

[ahbelew]

Yeah but the problem is it doesn't actually do any of these well and the set that it does do ok with, its Custap set, is pretty niche to the point that it would be more along the lines of a lower D rank than D and in a lot of cases Skarmory will take that role for itself.

So it's physical bulk means nothing? Its ability switch into almost every physical attacker and then bring in a pokemon that can counter it means nothing? How is it unviable as a spinner when Tentacruel is just as passive?

 

[ahbelew]

The things Forretress has over Skarmory as a suicide lead is Rapid Spin, which keeps hazards off of your side of the field, and Explosion, which prevents defog from clearing hazards if used with Custap. What Skarmory has is a higher speed tier, taunt, and Brave Bird, which can also prevent defogging if used at 1 hp (but is weaker than forry's Explosion). Forretress also has Toxic Spikes to replace Spikes if you so choose. IMO the things Forry has over Skarm are enough for D rank, but no higher.

D rank is what I was shooting for. I'm not saying Forretress excels in any one category, but as a whole, he deserves to be considered viable

 

[Kurona]

So it's physical bulk means nothing? Its ability switch into almost every physical attacker and then bring in a pokemon that can counter it means nothing? How is it unviable as a spinner when Tentacruel is just as passive?

Instead of using rhetoric as if it's a well-accepted point, can you actually give examples of when the slightly higher bulk comes in handy as opposed to Skarmory?
If you can switch out Forretress, the opponent can switch out their Pokémon, so your second point makes no sense.
From what I've heard, Forretress is pretty alright with Custap and deserves D on that merit, but please keep in mind that the Custap Berry is the only reason Forretress isn't blacklisted - it was blacklisted from discussion before, and the only reason that changed was because of Custap's release.

 

[ahbelew]

Instead of using rhetoric as if it's a well-accepted point, can you actually give examples of when the slightly higher bulk comes in handy as opposed to Skarmory?
If you can switch out Forretress, the opponent can switch out their Pokémon, so your second point makes no sense.
From what I've heard, Forretress is pretty alright with Custap and deserves D on that merit, but please keep in mind that the Custap Berry is the only reason Forretress isn't blacklisted - it was blacklisted from discussion before, and the only reason that changed was because of Custap's release.

I included calcs in the original post, not comparing him to skarm though. His advantage over skarm is volt switch. And of course the other poke can switch, but they have to switch back in eventually, and will be worn down in the process. You could make the switching out argument about any pokemon. The fact is, it would force a switch if you bring the right pokemon in after a volt switch... which from what I understand, is a good thing. You want your opponent on their heals switching for resisted hits or whatever. As for without custap berry, I still don't see what makes Forretress such an inadequate spinner compared to, say, Tentacruel. He has serious physical bulk, meaning he can switch into almost any physical hit and do what he needs to do, which could be setting rocks, spinning, or just slow switch right back out, which is one more option than any other poke can consider

 

[Blazikarados]

You want your opponent on their heals switching for resisted hits or whatever.

Could you clarify what exactly you mean by this?

The thing about Forretress is that it's setup fodder for too many things w/o Custap. Most physical sweepers can't set up on Tentacruel because of the possibility of Scald burn. They can't set up on Skarmory for fear of Whirlwind. You can't set up willy-nilly vs. Ferrothorn because of potential Leech Seed/ T-wave. Forretress has explosion, but you need Custap to make sure that you get that massive hit off.

Also keep in mind that M-Alt + Magnezone is a very real thing, so even if Altaria lacks the coverage, you are constantly risk being trapped and removed. What good is that physical bulk if you can't retaliate?

 

[ahbelew]

Could you clarify what exactly you mean by this?

The thing about Forretress is that it's setup fodder for too many things w/o Custap. Most physical sweepers can't set up on Tentacruel because of the possibility of Scald burn. They can't set up on Skarmory for fear of Whirlwind. You can't set up willy-nilly vs. Ferrothorn because of potential Leech Seed/ T-wave. Forretress has explosion, but you need Custap to make sure that you get that massive hit off.

Also keep in mind that M-Alt + Magnezone is a very real thing, so even if Altaria lacks the coverage, you are constantly risk being trapped and removed. What good is that physical bulk if you can't retaliate?

I get your point about M-Alt + Magnezone, I deal with that all the time. Volt Switch excapes the magnet pull, but if i don't use it on the switch in, i'll die anyways. As for set up mons, that's why you volt switch into a favorable position. I never claimed Forretress would be taking down anything other than Mega Altaria, and potentially damaging DD users. That slow switch is incredibly useful, even against set up mons. I'm not asking to make Forretress A rank or anything like that, just D. With more defenses than Mega Scizor, he can take a freakin hit and provide some sort of utitility for his team afterwords. Be that hazard setting, hazard removing (one sided only, which is better that skarms defog) or allowing another poke safe entry.

On a different note, Forretress has access to toxic, if you wanted to use that to prevent set up mons.

What I meant about the heals thing is that you'd rather have a favorable situation where your opponent is forced to switch than an even one, or a losing one.

Just realized I spelled heels wrong twice. sorry

 

[Alfalfa]

I get your point about M-Alt + Magnezone, I deal with that all the time. Volt Switch excapes the magnet pull, but if i don't use it on the switch in, i'll die anyways. As for set up mons, that's why you volt switch into a favorable position. I never claimed Forretress would be taking down anything other than Mega Altaria, and potentially damaging DD users. That slow switch is incredibly useful, even against set up mons. I'm not asking to make Forretress A rank or anything like that, just D. With more defenses than Mega Scizor, he can take a freakin hit and provide some sort of utitility for his team afterwords. Be that hazard setting, hazard removing (one sided only, which is better that skarms defog) or allowing another poke safe entry.

On a different note, Forretress has access to toxic, if you wanted to use that to prevent set up mons.

What I meant about the heals thing is that you'd rather have a favorable situation where your opponent is forced to switch than an even one, or a losing one.

There are still set-up Pokemon like Swords Dance Gliscor, Swords Dance Mega Scizor and Tail Glow + Rain Dance Manaphy that set up all over Forretress and do not even care about Toxic. Meanwhile, Skarmory has access to both Taunt, Whirlwind, and Counter, all of which discourage Pokemon from setting up on it. While Forretress also has Counter, it cannot use it effectively due to its lack of reliable recovery.

 

[Force Majeure]

One of the cool things Custap Forry has over Skarm is its ability to consistently spinblock with Custap Explosion. Skarmory relies on Brave Bird recoil to block the spin, which means that it must be below (Damage done by Brave Bird/3) AND below 25% to kill itself and block the spin. Forry only needs to be in Custap range to whack something hard with Explosion. Its moves other than Explosion are pretty good: unlike Skarmory, you can choose to Custap Rapid Spin on your last turn, removing hazards as you die to an enemy attack. A slow Volt Switch is situationally useful as well. I honestly assumed y'all moved Forry up to D when Custap was released.

 

[ahbelew]

There are still set-up Pokemon like Swords Dance Gliscor, Swords Dance Mega Scizor and Tail Glow + Rain Dance Manaphy that set up all over Forretress and do not even care about Toxic. Meanwhile, Skarmory has access to both Taunt, Whirlwind, and Counter, all of which discourage Pokemon from setting up on it. While Forretress also has Counter, it cannot use it effectively due to its lack of reliable recovery.

So Forretress has counters... several. That doesn't mean he can't spin well, or set rocks ever. Most of the time I use volt switch before doing anything because people always come in with a Forretress counter. As for Gliscor and other ground types like Excadril, Forretress is SOL, but besides that, volt switching in the right pokemon is almost always beneficial.

Just because Skarmory can do most things better doesn't mean it can do them all better, no pokemon can do everything better than Forretress because of his unique movepool.

Even if it's not for my reasons, Forretress deserves a D rank.

 

[Alfalfa]

So Forretress has counters... several. That doesn't mean he can't spin well, or set rocks ever. Most of the time I use volt switch before doing anything because people always come in with a Forretress counter. As for Gliscor and other ground types like Excadril, Forretress is SOL, but besides that, volt switching in the right pokemon is almost always beneficial.

Even if it's not for my reasons, Forretress deserves a D rank.

Forretress fails to beat most common Stealth Rock users, such as Garchomp, Tyranitar, Heatran, Landorus, and Clefable because all of them are equipped for taking on Forretress. A Rapid Spinner needs to be able to beat or discourage a number of viable Stealth Rock users from switching in on it, which Starmie and Excadrill are capable of doing through offensive pressure. Even some common Defoggers, such as Latios, Latias, and Skarmory have the ability to check important Pokemon, provide offensive pressure, or possess access to additional support moves that benefit certain or numerous playstyles. There are some individual Pokemon that both Starmie and Excadrill lose to or will lose to in a certain situation, but they are more capable of beating them than Forretress can.

 

[Poek]

Another thing overlooked in forretress' custap lead set is its access to Toxic Spikes. You would think: Why the hell would offense care about poisoning when it has better things to do like hitting hard right off the bat and blablabla whatever. There are like 0 pokemon who fit in HO that have Toxic Spikes bar like Dragalge I guess? I think that's more of a Bulky Offense thing but let's concentrate on my point. What Forretress allows for offense with Toxic Spikes is to heavily cripple opposing Pokemon that are used to destroy HO such as Mega Lopunny, Weavile, Keldeo, Mega Altaria, Azumarill, Mega Diancie, Mega Gallade, Mega Sceptile, Mega Manectric, Mega Alakazam... esentially putting them on a timer. It really helps at checking them properly, and it also cripples bulky shit like Double Dance Mega Slowbro, Hippowdon, Rocky Helmet Garchomp... you get the point. I think that for this reason and that its access to Explosion that gives it an edge over Skarmory it should be ranked at D but not because of the bulky spinner set.

 

[ahbelew]

Forretress fails to beat most common Stealth Rock users, such as Garchomp, Tyranitar, Heatran, Landorus, and Clefable because all of them are equipped for taking on Forretress. A Rapid Spinner needs to be able to beat or discourage a number of viable Stealth Rock users from switching in on it, which Starmie and Excadrill are capable of doing through offensive pressure. Even some common Defoggers, such as Latios, Latias, and Skarmory have the ability to check important Pokemon, provide offensive pressure, or possess access to additional support moves that benefit certain or numerous playstyles. There are some individual Pokemon that both Starmie and Excadrill lose to or will lose to in a certain situation, but they are more capable of beating them than Forretress can.

Forretress needs more team support than Starmie and Excadrill, but at the same time, he provides more team support as well. Forretress is there to spin, and get out. Set rocks and get out. Take a hit and get out. He's not there to fight anybody. As for going on a Hyper offense team, Poek97, his "three roles in one set" (spinner, hazard setter, slow switcher) allow for more pokes on the team that fit the HO norm, while Forretress takes care of their hazard needs. So the bulky set isn't terrible. Being able to come in and repeatably remove hazards, while almost always allowing a slow switch for a safe, favorable matchup after each spin, is nice.

 

[Alfalfa]

Forretress needs more team support than Starmie and Excadrill, but at the same time, he provides more team support as well. Forretress is there to spin, and get out. Set rocks and get out. Take a hit and get out. He's not there to fight anybody. As for going on a Hyper offense team, Poek97, his "three roles in one set" (spinner, hazard setter, slow switcher) allow for more pokes on the team that fit the HO norm, while Forretress takes care of their hazard needs. So the bulky set isn't terrible. Being able to come in and repeatably remove hazards, while almost always allowing a slow switch for a safe, favorable matchup after each spin, is nice.

What does Forretress come in on though? Almost all of S and A Rank, except Mega Metagross, Latias, Mega Aerodactyl, and Klefki all have a way of deterring Forretress from coming in, or have a way of taking advantage of it. In order to be able to come onto something, you need to be able to come in and force that Pokemon out, which Forretress is not good at doing.

 

[ahbelew]

What does Forretress come in on though? Almost all of S and A Rank, except Mega Metagross, Latias, Mega Aerodactyl, and Klefki all have a way of deterring Forretress from coming in, or have a way of taking advantage of it. In order to be able to come onto something, you need to be able to come in and force that Pokemon out, which Forretress is not good at doing.

Forretress comes in on Megagross, and slow switches a more favorable matchup in... if it has too. (look at the calcs though, without hammer arm, megagross isn't hurting forretress too much. Even with, it's a 4HKO, meaning a -4 speed Megagross) Why would you switch Forretress into Latias? Forretress can switch in on almost any physical attacker (without fire coverage ofc) in the tier, especially the two S rank ones.

 

[firehusky]

Forretress comes in on Megagross, and slow switches a more favorable matchup in... if it has too. (look at the calcs though, without hammer arm, megagross isn't hurting forretress too much. Even with, it's a 4HKO, meaning a -4 speed Megagross) Why would you switch Forretress into Latias? Forretress can switch in on almost any physical attacker (without fire coverage ofc) in the tier, especially the two S rank ones.

Mega Altaria commonly carries fire blast to lure in ferrothorn and it can hit forretress too. Coming in on megagross doesn't really matter that much when it can barely scratch it, and if you're using forretress as your megagross answer, how do you slow switch into a more favorable matchup? (Because forre is your megagross answer it's probably your best matchup so you can't switch out to a better one) Megagross can just keep on using hammer arm and because it lacks recovery it just eventually dies. Forretress can switch in on any physical attacker except it gets worn down very easily as it lacks reliable recovery. This means it can't do it repeatedly.

 

[ahbelew]

Mega Altaria commonly carries fire blast to lure in ferrothorn and it can hit forretress too. Coming in on megagross doesn't really matter that much when it can barely scratch it, and if you're using forretress as your megagross answer, how do you slow switch into a more favorable matchup? (Because forre is your megagross answer it's probably your best matchup so you can't switch out to a better one) Megagross can just keep on using hammer arm and because it lacks recovery it just eventually dies. Forretress can switch in on any physical attacker except it gets worn down very easily as it lacks reliable recovery. This means it can't do it repeatedly.

Forretress is never my counter to anything. Just there for team support with spin/rocks/vswitch. You volt switch to anything thats faster and has coverage. Mega Manectric can OHKO megagross with heatwave. Just one example

 

[Grim]

Forretress is never my counter to anything. Just there for team support with spin/rocks/vswitch. You volt switch to anything thats faster and has coverage. Mega Manectric can OHKO megagross with heatwave. Just one example

252 SpA Mega Manectric Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 196-232 (65.1 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It also doesn't get Heat Wave x_x Overheat has a 31.3% chance to OHKO though. Anyway, defensive Forretress just is not good in OU lol.