I feel like you are taking one successful team and making assumptions about viability. All of the Pokemon that make this list (even those in D), can be used in upper level competition with success. The reason certain Pokemon are in D is because they are incredibly niche and need massive support not because they are necessarily bad (or at least that's what the ranking meant before I went on hiatus for a while). I feel like this is Shedninja in a nutshell.
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Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139
- Thread starter AM
- Start date
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MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
Okay, I'll bite. What "half" of the list is both wrong and not qualified by the initial "most variants of"?
By theorymonning, I'm referring to the disparity between "sand, lures, pursuit, everything" kills and the fact that the team had consistent success on the ladder (where all of these things are in great quantity). Not to mention that focus sash lets you play a bit more carelessly (while baloon/safety goggles/lum can alleviate a bit of support if you are willing to take the risk).
Yes, stall is very restricted, and the team is pretty much set in stone out of neccesity, but it is also very successful. A lack of variety is unfortunate in the scope of being fun and creative, but if it works, it works.
Shendinja was absolutely one of the most important members of the team (ie. It is a blanket counter to half of the meta). Replace shendinja and the team would suck.
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that's not the point. one anecdotal team that uses shedninja successfully shouldn't impact its entire placement.
i don't see shedninja stall or shedninja anything having consistent success over a period of time (like the present) or dominating tours, be it OLT or stour.
the last part isn't an argument either lol. removing the five pokemon supporting shedninja and replacing them would make the team terrible, primarily because shedninja requires too much support.
like i just said, please stop talking about shedninja.
AM, you also deleted my posts back in the day and told me Shedinja would "never be ranked" and also told me to stop talking about it. Now it's ranked and multiple people have had top teams with it. Stifling the discussion isn't helping anyone, you're just feeding your own ego because you can.
I deleted the posts for what Henry stated not to "feed my own ego." This is honestly a courtesy at this point in time now a days so again, move on.
"Multiple top teams" is quite an overstatement when all those teams are all in the same blueprint. Maybe people aren't "prepared" for Shedinja but at the same time it's not impossible to prepare for teams that use Shedinja as a member. Most of Shedinja's effectiveness can also be attributed to other team members, mostly Mega Sableye.
Also rofl at everyone jumping on the "hate AM" bandwagon.
No Henry co-runs the thread so when he says to stop discussion on a certain nomination for the sake of keeping the thread intact in terms of its quality what he says will go here as well. He may not have moderation powers to delete comments to help with that the discussion but I do and so does TDK. I chose to help Henry at that moment as he specifically stated to stop discussing it and after the complaints I saw on Skype and PS it was quite obvious these needed to be removed after his statement.
Gardevoir (Mega) A -> A+
I think that mega gard should be A+ because there's nothing common on HO or balance that can switch into its nearly inpossible to switch if you using HO or balance to switch into mega gard.Mega gard is also a good counter to things like mega Sab is it dosnt mind being burnt to much and it most common other two moves being foul play and knock off dont to much either also since the meta has become more offensive with all the mega that cant switch into mega gard really the only pokemon that you see on HO / balance that can switch into mega gard are mega metagross spdef talon flame and some times mega scizor but metagross dosnt really like taking a hyper voice either also mega gard is very good in this current meta because common wall like ferro hetran and clef or skarmory dont counter it.also gard can switch into common special attacker like keldeo and latios and latias (this post is short becuase there or not many reason why i think it should be moved up becuase the ones i can think of are very important)
I think that mega gard should be A+ because there's nothing common on HO or balance that can switch into its nearly inpossible to switch if you using HO or balance to switch into mega gard.Mega gard is also a good counter to things like mega Sab is it dosnt mind being burnt to much and it most common other two moves being foul play and knock off dont to much either also since the meta has become more offensive with all the mega that cant switch into mega gard really the only pokemon that you see on HO / balance that can switch into mega gard are mega metagross spdef talon flame and some times mega scizor but metagross dosnt really like taking a hyper voice either also mega gard is very good in this current meta because common wall like ferro hetran and clef or skarmory dont counter it.also gard can switch into common special attacker like keldeo and latios and latias (this post is short becuase there or not many reason why i think it should be moved up becuase the ones i can think of are very important)
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 105-124 (34.8 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
it first this looks like a bad thing be it not this calc show that metagross can only switch in twice meaning it isnt really a solid check
252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 141-167 (42.2 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
after rocks it a 2hit KO also keep in mind this is spdef and not all skarms are spef and thirdly this isnt a solid check since you have to roost untill focus blast misses
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 104-123 (28.9 - 34.2%) -- 99.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 207-244 (57.6 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
talon flame strugles to switch into gard aswell
it first this looks like a bad thing be it not this calc show that metagross can only switch in twice meaning it isnt really a solid check
252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 141-167 (42.2 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
after rocks it a 2hit KO also keep in mind this is spdef and not all skarms are spef and thirdly this isnt a solid check since you have to roost untill focus blast misses
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 104-123 (28.9 - 34.2%) -- 99.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 207-244 (57.6 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
talon flame strugles to switch into gard aswell
Eh Mega Gard is good but I just don't see it being as influential as some of the other megas Pokemon found in A+ at the moment, such as Mega Alt, Lopunny, Scizor, and Diancie. Yes it's true that it can be very difficult to switch into Gard if you lack something like a rachi, SpD Talon, AV Meta, or Klefki, but its Speed tier and weakness to very common forms of priority from Pokemon found commonly on offense such as Bisharp, Azu, Mega Scizor, Talon, and Mega Medicham keeps it from ever having free opportunities to spam Hyper Voice. It has good SpD, but terrible physical bulk which leaves it easily revenge killed by a ton of shit found on offense. It can't even reliably switch into Dragons that well either; one of the most common Dragons found on offense, Latios, has a pretty high chance to 2HKO with Psyshock after SR, so you have to predict right or else Gard is taking a TON of damage. And while the point of offense isn't to really have a switch into everything, it still has things like Scarf Rachi, Klefki, and Metagross which can switch in at least twice if need be, but again, the point of offense is to keep up the pressure through double switching and offensive momentum, not just mindelessly switching shit into strong attacks, so I don't really see why Gard should move up because offense has trouble stomaching its hits. Gard can be a nightmare for slower builds especially if it packs CM or Taunt, but it struggles to put in much work vs offense and good builders will definitely pack something to deal with Mega Gard on slower builds, especially with how popular Gard is right now.
The other Megas in A+ just seem to be more successful against a more variety of builds in general. Mega Alakazam is fast as hell and can revenge kill/clean up offense very easily once priority is gone, and with CM it can tear apart fat cores. We all know how Mega Lop can tear apart offense, and with PuP it can bust through its common switch-ins/Ice Punch Chomp and Lando-T. Mega Diancie hits very hard and can boost its already decently high Speed in order to sweep through offense, and while priority can be annoying for it as well, it at least resists Sucker Punch, Fake Out, and Brave Bird, all of which are very common at the moment. Diancie may not fare as well against balance as Gard does, but unlike Gard, it can practically pick what walls it depending on what coverage it runs, so it can be a huge nuisance for teams that may primarily rely on Ferro or Mega Scizor as their Diancie check, as HP Fire can bope them. Magic Bounce is also a god send ability, and while Mega Gard is indeed a great check to Mega Sableye, it doesn't really appreciate getting burned as much as u say it does, because with hazards + burn + possible Sand or priority, Mega Gard will be worn down extremely fast. Mega Diancie on the other hand just freely switches into Sableye without any repercussions.
So yeah I think Mega Gard fits better in A personally, as I don't think it can be compared to most of the Pokemon found in A+ rank.
The other Megas in A+ just seem to be more successful against a more variety of builds in general. Mega Alakazam is fast as hell and can revenge kill/clean up offense very easily once priority is gone, and with CM it can tear apart fat cores. We all know how Mega Lop can tear apart offense, and with PuP it can bust through its common switch-ins/Ice Punch Chomp and Lando-T. Mega Diancie hits very hard and can boost its already decently high Speed in order to sweep through offense, and while priority can be annoying for it as well, it at least resists Sucker Punch, Fake Out, and Brave Bird, all of which are very common at the moment. Diancie may not fare as well against balance as Gard does, but unlike Gard, it can practically pick what walls it depending on what coverage it runs, so it can be a huge nuisance for teams that may primarily rely on Ferro or Mega Scizor as their Diancie check, as HP Fire can bope them. Magic Bounce is also a god send ability, and while Mega Gard is indeed a great check to Mega Sableye, it doesn't really appreciate getting burned as much as u say it does, because with hazards + burn + possible Sand or priority, Mega Gard will be worn down extremely fast. Mega Diancie on the other hand just freely switches into Sableye without any repercussions.
So yeah I think Mega Gard fits better in A personally, as I don't think it can be compared to most of the Pokemon found in A+ rank.
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So the points you've made are generally solid, but I don't see why that means that M-Camerupt should rise to C+. Whether it's in C- or C+, it still takes up the Mega Slot, 4x weak to water, immune to twave/wisp, etc. etc. These statements are true, but I don't see how that justifies a rise (or lack of one) since they're true regardless of what rank the Pokemon is in. So, the pros and cons can't really merit a rise on their own unless paired with some change(s) in the meta that makes life easier for the camel.
Let me correct your method of ranking here. If this the beginning of ORAS, a completely new batch of pokemon then this would be the correct way to nominate it. However, we've had Mega Camerupt for almost a year now. Everyone is aware of what it can do. It's not news that it breaks a fuckton of stuff, neither is it news that it has a horrible weakness to water. But this is why it is C. If we're using your logic, we could continue to repost your nomination and just replace C+ with B, and repeat that until it's ranked alongside Primal Don in Ubers. The only way something is moving in the viability rankings now, outside of something new like Contrary on Serperior, is if the metagame shifts in its favour, or against it. The rise of Weavile, Scizor ect effects everything in the tier, and thus will result in constant movement of the rankings. Tank Chomp is relatively new and resorts in a ton of changes in the rankings, thus something can move without it actually gaining/losing something.
I believe Burn + Hazards + Possible Sand or Propriety wearing it down fast could also apply to a lot of other Pokemon, if not most of them. I also don't know why you mention HP Fire Diancie in a way that it's something it has over Gardevoir, when Gardevoir can use it effectively too. But both are destroyed by Scizor's Bullet Bunch anyway. But Other than that I agreed with you on most parts, this Meta is too offensive-based for Gardevoir to be ranked any higher than it is now, and I wouldn't be surprised if it drop to A- if the meta become even more offensive-based.
I suppose I should give my two cents on this shedinja nonsense
Shedinja's efficacy doesn't come from simply flaunting its immunities in the face of a pokemon that can't touch it. These are some of Shedinja's true strengths:
-General effectiveness at baiting opponents in certain situations, often by hard double-switching and scouting
-Being able to cripple most of the meta with will-o-wisp, while threatening to trap most things that can afford a switch into wisp
-Momentum grabbing with slow BP
-Hard walling a few notorious stall breakers
I don't feel the need to elaborate on what makes Shedinja bad. Obviously it needs a crap ton of support to have any significance, and even then it has obvious weaknesses in low speed, susceptibility to pursuit trapping, shit stats, ohko'd by sand, etc. This makes Shedinja a strange case in terms of viability, being the only pokemon with such extreme weaknesses that are outweighed by one extreme strength (wonder guard). For these reasons I believe it should at least be on this viability list as long as its most effective support options (sab/dugtrio) are available. I also believe it should remain in D-rank due to having very limited viability outside of tailored stall/semi-stall builds. Simply put, Shedinja is decent with the necessary support and completely useless without the support. It should stay where it is.
EDIT: I'm aware that the shedinja conversation has been cut off, but hopefully this will help settle things for those who aren't quite satisfied with the outcome of the discussion.
Shedinja's efficacy doesn't come from simply flaunting its immunities in the face of a pokemon that can't touch it. These are some of Shedinja's true strengths:
-General effectiveness at baiting opponents in certain situations, often by hard double-switching and scouting
-Being able to cripple most of the meta with will-o-wisp, while threatening to trap most things that can afford a switch into wisp
-Momentum grabbing with slow BP
-Hard walling a few notorious stall breakers
I don't feel the need to elaborate on what makes Shedinja bad. Obviously it needs a crap ton of support to have any significance, and even then it has obvious weaknesses in low speed, susceptibility to pursuit trapping, shit stats, ohko'd by sand, etc. This makes Shedinja a strange case in terms of viability, being the only pokemon with such extreme weaknesses that are outweighed by one extreme strength (wonder guard). For these reasons I believe it should at least be on this viability list as long as its most effective support options (sab/dugtrio) are available. I also believe it should remain in D-rank due to having very limited viability outside of tailored stall/semi-stall builds. Simply put, Shedinja is decent with the necessary support and completely useless without the support. It should stay where it is.
EDIT: I'm aware that the shedinja conversation has been cut off, but hopefully this will help settle things for those who aren't quite satisfied with the outcome of the discussion.
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In practice, and has been brought up before which is why he is at the rank he is, the speed really lets MCamerupt down. Which is a problem unique to him as a wall breaker since this actually allows walls like Chansey to outspeed and recover, meaning he won't be able to pull off the 2HKO as easily. It also makes it difficult for him to fire shots when his speed is so easily exploited, unless built around heavily with speed control in mind.
So I’m sure many of you have read that AM has stepped down as moderator. I’m one of the two who has taken his place and Celticpride asked me if I could be the one of us to be more hands on with the VR thread so I said OK.
I’m not gonna be exactly like AM with how I handle the thread, so I’ll leave some of my thoughts here which may give you a better idea of how to make posts that won’t get deleted.
1. One liners are kind of a no brainer they don’t really add to the discussion they are normally some kind of nitpick or minor correction. I’ll be deleting them unless they come from other OU mods / VR team.
2. This thread isn’t the place for petty arguments. Insulting one another isn’t okay let’s focus on nominations, if you disagree about something please handle it in a civil manner and do so within the context of this thread (i.e. your nom of X to move to Y rank rubs me the wrong way because of Z metagame trend).
3. If a VR member asks you to move on, move on. Posts after that will probably be deleted. An example of a post that would not is Branflakes’ most recent post since he was one of the creators of a successful Shedinja team and his opinion is valued on the matter even though the discussion was deemed dead. His post also didn’t elicit any more responses on the matter.
4. Also if VR member asks me to delete posts I will do so. It would most likely be for one of the above reasons
5. If your posts are incomprehensible I will probably delete them.
6. If you post in response to posts that will be or are deleted, your post will be deleted as well.
7. If you post a nomination of an unranked pokemon to be ranked without replays I will delete your post. [added in as of 10-13-15, don't know how I forgot this one]
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Now I want to get into the slightly more subjective side. I don’t want to kill discussion since this thread is meant to foster metagame discussion but I want to give an idea of what I see as quality nominations vs bad ones so that (hopefully) posting quality can improve and if not at least I can say I told you why when I delete posts I think aren’t fostering any kind of good discussion.
Posts of the following format are totally unhelpful:
Diggersby – Agree with rise. one sentence
Mamoswine – Agree with drop. one sentence
Etc
Your opinions are something that the VR team wants to see but please provide sufficient reasoning (see: more than one sentence). I will probably delete posts like this in the future.
Also please keep in mind that stats and abilities are generally not good nomination arguments. The recent Camerupt nomination is kind of an example of a nomination I don’t think is very good because it focuses on what it does as a standalone pokemon without considering how it interacts with the metagame (in fairness, this post was well formatted and very comprehensible so I would not delete a post like this). We are all capable of seeing what pokemon can do what, so these arguments basically amount to things that people already know. When making a nomination it is best to discuss the pokemon’s place within the metagame. This means taking into account recent trends – examples of which would be things like Clefables tending to run T-Wave on MG CM sets.
With this in mind, I’ll give a pair of examples.
Example of a bad nomination:
Mega Gallade to A
Mega Gallade is fast, strong and can set up Swords Dance to break through a lot of walls. It has nice coverage options like Knock Off and Ice Punch to deal with things that might otherwise wall it.
The reason this nomination is bad is because it speaks about Gallade as a standalone pokemon and doesn’t really talk about its place in the metagame at all. The first sentence is something that everybody knows. If Helmet Chomp was mentioned as a target of Ice Punch, this would make the argument slightly better because it is addressing a metagame trend. The other reason this nomination is bad is because it is nominating a pokemon to jump multiple ranks at once. Bar the case of new moves or hidden ability releases (i.e. Gatr and Serperior), please try to make nominations of one subrank at a time. Generally the VR team hasn’t overlooked something to the point that it needs to jump multiple subranks. Exceptions can occur like regular Metagross and Nidoking recently jumping a couple ranks at once but this is a much rarer occurrence.
Example of a good nomination:
Raikou to A
Raikou’s ability to check electric types and fit onto offensive teams is very valuable in the current metagame, because typical ground types on offense are vulnerable ice coverage. Its Calm Mind set has the ability to put a lot of pressure on opposing offensive builds when it sets up on things like Heatran and Thundurus, and its general ability to check Manaphy which is one of the major forces in the metagame helps its viability as well.
This nomination doesn’t really talk about Raikou’s stats or abilities; it focuses on where it fits into the metagame. It explains why current metagame trends favor it. It does actually talk about a move – this is different than stats or abilities (pokemon have fewer abilities than moves so this doesn't happen with abilities as much) because sometimes a move can become popular or relevant in the metagame because of trends. In this case CM helps Raikou apply pressure on the opposing team rather than simply check stuff (AV) and it avoids the prediction reliance of Specs.
I will probably delete some bad nominations if they are especially poor, but for the most part I’m not trying to censor you.
Last thing to keep in mind is that viability is fluid. This is an interconnected web of pokemon it isn’t a food chain. There is no pokemon that it all revolves around that has a fixed rank – anything can change at any time if the metagame changes in such a way that can account for it.
Anyway I’ll probably leave a link to this post in my signature so it’s easier to locate for future reference if you want an idea of how to make posts that won’t get deleted. If VR team wants me to add or remove anything from this post they are free to let me know and of course I am looking forward to working with them in keeping this thread running smoothly.
I’m not gonna be exactly like AM with how I handle the thread, so I’ll leave some of my thoughts here which may give you a better idea of how to make posts that won’t get deleted.
1. One liners are kind of a no brainer they don’t really add to the discussion they are normally some kind of nitpick or minor correction. I’ll be deleting them unless they come from other OU mods / VR team.
2. This thread isn’t the place for petty arguments. Insulting one another isn’t okay let’s focus on nominations, if you disagree about something please handle it in a civil manner and do so within the context of this thread (i.e. your nom of X to move to Y rank rubs me the wrong way because of Z metagame trend).
3. If a VR member asks you to move on, move on. Posts after that will probably be deleted. An example of a post that would not is Branflakes’ most recent post since he was one of the creators of a successful Shedinja team and his opinion is valued on the matter even though the discussion was deemed dead. His post also didn’t elicit any more responses on the matter.
4. Also if VR member asks me to delete posts I will do so. It would most likely be for one of the above reasons
5. If your posts are incomprehensible I will probably delete them.
6. If you post in response to posts that will be or are deleted, your post will be deleted as well.
7. If you post a nomination of an unranked pokemon to be ranked without replays I will delete your post. [added in as of 10-13-15, don't know how I forgot this one]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now I want to get into the slightly more subjective side. I don’t want to kill discussion since this thread is meant to foster metagame discussion but I want to give an idea of what I see as quality nominations vs bad ones so that (hopefully) posting quality can improve and if not at least I can say I told you why when I delete posts I think aren’t fostering any kind of good discussion.
Posts of the following format are totally unhelpful:
Diggersby – Agree with rise. one sentence
Mamoswine – Agree with drop. one sentence
Etc
Your opinions are something that the VR team wants to see but please provide sufficient reasoning (see: more than one sentence). I will probably delete posts like this in the future.
Also please keep in mind that stats and abilities are generally not good nomination arguments. The recent Camerupt nomination is kind of an example of a nomination I don’t think is very good because it focuses on what it does as a standalone pokemon without considering how it interacts with the metagame (in fairness, this post was well formatted and very comprehensible so I would not delete a post like this). We are all capable of seeing what pokemon can do what, so these arguments basically amount to things that people already know. When making a nomination it is best to discuss the pokemon’s place within the metagame. This means taking into account recent trends – examples of which would be things like Clefables tending to run T-Wave on MG CM sets.
With this in mind, I’ll give a pair of examples.
Example of a bad nomination:
Mega Gallade to A
Mega Gallade is fast, strong and can set up Swords Dance to break through a lot of walls. It has nice coverage options like Knock Off and Ice Punch to deal with things that might otherwise wall it.
The reason this nomination is bad is because it speaks about Gallade as a standalone pokemon and doesn’t really talk about its place in the metagame at all. The first sentence is something that everybody knows. If Helmet Chomp was mentioned as a target of Ice Punch, this would make the argument slightly better because it is addressing a metagame trend. The other reason this nomination is bad is because it is nominating a pokemon to jump multiple ranks at once. Bar the case of new moves or hidden ability releases (i.e. Gatr and Serperior), please try to make nominations of one subrank at a time. Generally the VR team hasn’t overlooked something to the point that it needs to jump multiple subranks. Exceptions can occur like regular Metagross and Nidoking recently jumping a couple ranks at once but this is a much rarer occurrence.
Example of a good nomination:
Raikou to A
Raikou’s ability to check electric types and fit onto offensive teams is very valuable in the current metagame, because typical ground types on offense are vulnerable ice coverage. Its Calm Mind set has the ability to put a lot of pressure on opposing offensive builds when it sets up on things like Heatran and Thundurus, and its general ability to check Manaphy which is one of the major forces in the metagame helps its viability as well.
This nomination doesn’t really talk about Raikou’s stats or abilities; it focuses on where it fits into the metagame. It explains why current metagame trends favor it. It does actually talk about a move – this is different than stats or abilities (pokemon have fewer abilities than moves so this doesn't happen with abilities as much) because sometimes a move can become popular or relevant in the metagame because of trends. In this case CM helps Raikou apply pressure on the opposing team rather than simply check stuff (AV) and it avoids the prediction reliance of Specs.
I will probably delete some bad nominations if they are especially poor, but for the most part I’m not trying to censor you.
Last thing to keep in mind is that viability is fluid. This is an interconnected web of pokemon it isn’t a food chain. There is no pokemon that it all revolves around that has a fixed rank – anything can change at any time if the metagame changes in such a way that can account for it.
Anyway I’ll probably leave a link to this post in my signature so it’s easier to locate for future reference if you want an idea of how to make posts that won’t get deleted. If VR team wants me to add or remove anything from this post they are free to let me know and of course I am looking forward to working with them in keeping this thread running smoothly.
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Mega Camerupt has been in C- Rank for a while and I think, in my opinion, the metagame has shifted in Camerupt's favour. For example, Clefable went to S rank. Not only is Mega Camerupt a good answer to non-Calm Mind Clefable (and even then, you could try to phaze it out with Yawn), thanks to resisting Fairy, being immune to thunder wave, and not caring at all about knock off, but it is also an answer to many of Clefable's checks, such as Talonflame, Heatran, and Scizor, all of which are used more frequently as an answer to Clefable. Mega Sableye's rise to S rank also helps Mega Camerupt's viability, being a good answer to non-Calm Mind Sableye. Mega Sableye also encourages teams to have at least one check, such as both Charizard Megas and the aforementioned Clefable, which are checked by Mega Camerupt. Speaking of which, Charizard X also rose to S rank, which encourages teams to have at least one check. An example of such a pokemon is Quagsire, which is considered a staple on stall teams. Quagsire actually can't switch in on Mega Camerupt do to actually being outsped and taking about half health away from Fire Blast. Speaking of stall, Mega Camerupt also acts as a good check to entire stall teams. Gothitelle Stall teams usually lack an answer to Camerupt do to Quagsire usually being the primary water type, Sableye being unable to switch in, and Gothitelle unable to revenge kill or trick a scarf on Camerupt. With the rise of Weavile, teams are influenced to have at least one check or counter, such as Skarmory and Scizor, pokemon that Mega Camerupt can counter. The rise of Tank Chomp encourages teams to have at least one pokemon that can try to force it out to prevent stealth rock up, such as Mega Sableye and Clefable, both of which Mega Camerupt checks. For these reasons, I think Mega Camerupt should rise to C+. Sorry for not explaining my post earlier, as I really needed to go somewhere and was running late.
How does gothitelle stall "Lack an answer to Camerupt" when chansey takes at most less than 30% from fire blast? Chansey also outspeeds you so Camerupt still loses to chansey even if you somehow significantly weaken it. (252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 178-211 (25.2 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO) I don't see how your argument of quag not switching into mega-camerupt demonstrates its effectiveness against stall when chansey is on literally every goth stall team.
I would like to nominate M-Cham from A- ------>A rank.
I made this nomination a month or maybe two months back and it was turned down, but I feel now that the meta is more inclined to balanced teams on the ladder so this thing deserves a rise IMO. Amazing Attack stat and has a decent Speed tier for a wallbreaker with double priority to threaten offense sounds very good right now thanks to all the fat cores that are running around , they are easily dismantled by M-Cham. HJK pretty much nukes everything bar super fat psychic types. Which can be taken down if paired with a pursuit trapper like T-tar , Bisharp or Weavile. This allows M-cham to function even better. I will provide some replays I had stored up while laddering with M-Cham, these are all vs quality players very high on the ladder using balanced teams.
vs Tsunami - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-279146260
vs #1 ladder dude - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-277656578
vs Bennyxxo9 - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-277664042
vs High Impulse - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-277462925
I made this nomination a month or maybe two months back and it was turned down, but I feel now that the meta is more inclined to balanced teams on the ladder so this thing deserves a rise IMO. Amazing Attack stat and has a decent Speed tier for a wallbreaker with double priority to threaten offense sounds very good right now thanks to all the fat cores that are running around , they are easily dismantled by M-Cham. HJK pretty much nukes everything bar super fat psychic types. Which can be taken down if paired with a pursuit trapper like T-tar , Bisharp or Weavile. This allows M-cham to function even better. I will provide some replays I had stored up while laddering with M-Cham, these are all vs quality players very high on the ladder using balanced teams.
vs Tsunami - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-279146260
vs #1 ladder dude - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-277656578
vs Bennyxxo9 - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-277664042
vs High Impulse - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-277462925
i dont think it should more up one because so many offensive mons like latios can switch into it making it a massive momentum loser also its set up fodder for lot of mons like azumarill, manaphy,feraligatr really quad weak to water isnt somthing you want to be using in ou QUOTE HERE (part of the reply)
Clefable went to S rank. Not only is Mega Camerupt a good answer to non-Calm Mind Clefable (and even then, you could try to phaze it out with Yawn), thanks to resisting Fairy, being immune to thunder wave, and not caring at all about knock off, but it is also an answer to many of Clefable's checks, such as Talonflame, Heatran, and Scizor, all of which are used more frequently as an answer to Clefable. Mega Sableye's rise to S rank also helps Mega Camerupt's viability, being a good answer to non-Calm Mind Sableye. Mega Sableye also encourages teams to have at least one check, such as both Charizard Megas and the aforementioned Clefable, which are checked by Mega Camerupt. Speaking of which, Charizard X also rose to S rank,
you spend so much time talking about S rank mons that is like you forget there not they only treats in the meta also like TheyCallMeAdolf says goth stall dosnt lack a camerupt anser when it has chansey. personally i cant see camerupt fitting it this meta when it really just out classed by thing likes mega gard and mega zard y in this rather fast meta camerupt is left behind. that just my say on the matter
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Clefable rose to S in may, why is Camerupt rising now? We even gained a new water type, Manaphy rose to S recently. Camerupts got more competition as a wallbreaker from Hoopa and Charizards a 50/50 wether to Fire blast/Earth power, and earthquake does a fuckton. We're also seeing a rise in Tankchomp so idk how these metagame benefit Camerupt lol.
Mega Camerupt has a good list of useful traits to it:
- Its power. A great base 145 Special Attack and good base 120 Attack combined with Sheer Force gives it the potential to deal huge amount of damages to the opponent's team (its full power doesn't rely on sun, unlike Zard Y). This also makes many water types, like Feraligatr, Manaphy, and Azumarill think twice before switching in.
- Its bulk. 70 / 100 / 105 defenses is nice all-around, and it's not particularly weak to either physical or special moves unless insanely powerful or super-effective (unlike Mega Charizard Y's mediocre base 78 defense.
- Its movepool. While not exactly impressive, it does get a few great moves in its arsenal. Such moves include the always useful Stealth Rock, the crippling Will-O-Wisp, and the rare Yawn, which is useful for forcing switches or putting a Pokemon to sleep if the opponent allows it to stay in. Earth Power is also nice to have, as it allows it to KO Heatran reliability ( Mega Charizard Y and Mega Gardevoir have to rely on Focus
MissBlast or Earthquake in Zard's case, which Charizard Y doesn't have much room for on its standard offensive set). - Stealth Rock neutrality. Due to its Ground typing, Mega Camerupt takes less damage from Sr, unlike Zard Y, which loses 50% every time it switches it (Roost doesn't make up for this well.
- Electric immunity. Unlike Zard Y, it is immune to Electric-type moves, so it is able to checks things like Raikou and Mega Manectric.
- Pitiful base speed. Its awful base 20 speed leaves it outsped by multiple threats in OU, like Landorus-Therian, Manaphy, and Azumarill.
- Typing. While it does have an Electric immunity and SR neutrality, along with a good amount of useful resistances, the 4x weakness and 2x weakness to Ground, two common types, is a big damper on its bulk and the benefits of its typing.
- No reliable recovery. Unlike Charizard, it has no way of healing itself outside of Rest, which leaves it vulnerable. Hazards wearing it down makes this worse, as it is vulnerable to all three of them (spikes, sr, and t spikes).
- Competition with other Fire-types. Heatran, Mega Charizard Y, and even Mega Houndoom give it heavy competition for a team slot (Heatran has like 5 great sets, zard is faster and has roost, stronger in sun, and has a semi-reliable solarbeam and mega doom has nasty plot, 115 speed, and taunt).
Going to be my last post about Mega Camerupt to prevent this argument from becoming too long.
Now, I really need to clarify this. Mega Camerupt is a niche pokemon. That niche being able to check certain threats and break defensive cores so that a teammate can clean up. Such teammates include Calm Mind Clefable and Bulk Up Talonflame. The difference between Camerupt and it's competition (Zard, Heatran, etc) is that it can stop certain pokemon. Mega Camerupt does it's niche well, and is in need of a raise. It's certainly better than the other mons in C-, such as Mega Aggron.
First of all, the quad weakness is somewhat irrelevant do to the fact that all those pokemon not wanting to switch into Earth Power, with Azumarill, Keldeo, and Feraligtyr being KOd after a bit of prior damage and Manaphy taking about 75% damage.
Now, I really need to clarify this. Mega Camerupt is a niche pokemon. That niche being able to check certain threats and break defensive cores so that a teammate can clean up. Such teammates include Calm Mind Clefable and Bulk Up Talonflame. The difference between Camerupt and it's competition (Zard, Heatran, etc) is that it can stop certain pokemon. Mega Camerupt does it's niche well, and is in need of a raise. It's certainly better than the other mons in C-, such as Mega Aggron.
The problem is that it is a niche pokemon with a not THAT useful niche, that isn't worth using your mega slot for. Its weaknesses are compounded by the fact that its susceptible to all forms of hazards, which is a nightmare for this hazard-crazed Meta, and has no recovery to get the damage back. Look at the bulk of viable slow mons in the meta - they've all got (at least semi-) reliable recovery.
It's so slow and weak to one of the most common attacking types (seriously, EVERY team has a water type) that it's too easy to force out, meaning it takes hazards once more. Yes it's difficult to switch into; but what can switch into it can recover, allowing it to do so again and again, something that Camerupt can't do.
There's just no way that it should be moving up from C-. That Mega slot is just too valuable to use it on a 'mon with soo many flaws.
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