Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[Laurel]

I don't think the mega slot argument is that much of a good one anymore unless there's two or more very similar megas tbh; if your team benefits well from Mega Pidgeot over any other mega, then you're going to use it - it's really as simple as that imo; there's no other Mega you'd rather use in that scenario. In addition, you would not be using Tornadus-Therian for the same reason you'd be using Mega Pidgeot. While on paper they are extremely similar to the point of having the same speed, main STAB move, additional coverage and even general power output, the fact of the matter is that during the teambuilding process if you want a Hurricane spammer - and this is really important as Torn-T is the only other user of special flying STAB in the meta (lol air slash zardy) - you would not choose Torn-T because it cannot spam Hurricanes.
To make things a little clearer, perhaps I should draw an example to another extremely common move of the same power and accuracy commonly used as coverage - Focus Blast. Now, why am I saying Torn-T's base 70 accuracy Hurricane is bad to spam when Focus Blast is a common, almost necessary coverage move on a lot of good OU 'mon such as Mega Gardevoir, Gengar and Mega Charizard Y? Because the crucial difference here is that you do not spam Focus Blast. Most people are only willing to take the risk because it hits a few specific Pokémon, hence you should only need to use it once or twice in a match to not get walled by them. This is the same reason you would never use Tornadus-Therian in place of Mega Pidgeot. Mega Pidgeot's role is quite simply spam Hurricane. That's it's big niche. It works as a late-game cleaner or even sometimes as a stallbreaker due to it's reliability - in contrast, Tornadus-Therian uses Hurricane in a different manner - to Pivot. It can come into certain Pokémon and threaten them out with Hurricane, and the user will feel comfortable in that because A) they don't have to spam it and B) it will force the opponent into a difficult position.
Basically this is a great example of how something is completely different on paper than in practise. You can't honestly look me in the eye, keep a straight face and say you're going to use Tornadus-Therian as a late-game cleaner or stallbreaker, for the simple fact that it's main STAB is far too unreliable. This is why Mega Pidgeot finds a niche.

lol did you really say Torn-T doesn't spam Hurricanes? Just because 3/10 miss doesn't mean it doesn't spam Hurricanes.

You know what else Torn-T does that Pidgeot cant? It can beat Heatran and Tyranitar. There are literally no switch ins, and YES, the no mega stone argument is a good one. If you're using Mega Pidgeot you're not using Mega Diancie, Mega Metagross, Mega Altaria or some other broken sh*t. Which puts you at an automatic disadvantage. Oh what do you know 2/3 of those shit on Pidgeot, the other gets a free DD or kills with Hyper Voice after rocks. Tornadus though?? It lives Hyper Voice and can Super Power Diancie.

Lol @ Torn-T not spamming Hurricanes. Thats EXACTLY why you use it. This makes me think of Moltres in BW and ORAS RU lmao. So what if it has a 30% chance to miss, you don't chance it unless you have to.

 

[aim]

Clefable A+ to S

it’s the perfect utility mon in a sense that it can always get up sr and beat all spinners/defoggers. it’s ability + typing make it an excellent pivot or sweeper as well as a valid move pool to boot. if it wasn’t for its “poor stats” i think it’d be too much to handle. it has great utility in sr, twave, knock off, healbell, encore etc. the unaware version stops set up sweepers and clefable is just a mon that can be slapped on to any type of team. it has solid recovery in soft boiled/heal bell and two amazing abilities. It can check a whole bunch of threats in the metagame just in itself so yeah, clefable to S for me.

 

[Jasper]

Lol @ Torn-T not spamming Hurricanes. Thats EXACTLY why you use it. So what if it has a 30% chance to miss, you don't chance it unless you have to.

And that's where the crucial difference lies. With Pidgeot-Mega, you can spam Hurricane with impunity, without the fear of a critical miss. With Tornadus, "you don't chance it unless you have to."

 

[Srn]

lol did you really say Torn-T doesn't spam Hurricanes? Just because 3/10 miss doesn't mean it doesn't spam Hurricanes.

You know what else Torn-T does that Pidgeot cant? It can beat Heatran and Tyranitar. There are literally no switch ins, and YES, the no mega stone argument is a good one. If you're using Mega Pidgeot you're not using Mega Diancie, Mega Metagross, Mega Altaria or some other broken sh*t. Which puts you at an automatic disadvantage. Oh what do you know 2/3 of those shit on Pidgeot, the other gets a free DD or kills with Hyper Voice after rocks. Tornadus though?? It lives Hyper Voice and can Super Power Diancie.

Lol @ Torn-T not spamming Hurricanes. Thats EXACTLY why you use it. This makes me think of Moltres in BW and ORAS RU lmao. So what if it has a 30% chance to miss, you don't chance it unless you have to.

Honestly hurricane is more of a threat than an actual action on torn-t, most of the time you're really just gonna be knocking off or u-turning vs a keldeo. that's where torn-t shines, getting cheap damage with utility or pivoting. An assault vest hurricane is not too powerful (although it's pretty strong) and it's certainly not reliable, especially for stab.
"So what if it has a 30% chance to miss"
I do like winning games every now and then man :/
Not using your stab unless you have to is kinda dumb. That's like not using scald on your specs keldeo unless you have to. It's your fucking STAB, it's your main source of damage and you want it to be reliable.
"Just because 3/10 miss doesn't mean it doesn't spam"?
yes it does lol; what's the risk/reward here? Do moderate damage 70% of the time off of your AV torn-t or gauranteed momentum/item removal? Idk about you, but I and most others find ourselves doing the latter. Now if you're LO torn-t, that's a different matter, because the reward on your hurricane landing is much higher, but Mega Pidgeot's reliability is more than worth the mega stone if you're looking for a specially offensive flying type.

As far as clefable goes, I'm leaning towards putting it in A+.
I agree that its versatility is great, moveslots are great, typing is great, abilities are great, but it simply falls soo short on stats.
One can use the argument that it checks a bunch of stuff but in practice the amount of stuff it actually checks gets cut in half after hardly 15% prior damage or so :/ It's very reliant on being healthy to do its job, and while its not too easy to wear down, it's very easy to pressure and overwhelm.

On top of this, maybe this is just me, but I find myself being able to check clefable incredibly easy. Taunt heatran, excadrill, jirachi, talonflame, venusaur, tentacruel, spdef skarm w/iron head (does fine these days cuz fire coverage is kinda rare), mmeta, bandzor, bisharp, gengar, victini, volcorona, mega beedril, and scolipede can all check clefable.
This is because its easy to outspeed and anything with a strong super effective move can dent it down to the point where anything else can finish it off, even through boosts. If you really wanted to get into it, you could very well extend the list to faster banded mons, but not many of those switch in too safely. Pokemon like CB azu and mega pinsir can easily live anything clefable can do and 2hko fully physically defensive variants.

I can literally come in on clefable with a mega garchomp as it uses calm mind, set up an SD as i tank a +1 moonblast (93.7% of the time without sr)(20 hp evs on mchomp) and kill fully physically defensive variants back with stab eq 87.5% without sr of the time even outside of sand
...
does it bother anybody that fucking mega garchomp "fulfills" the criteria for being a clefable check? Yeah this is a pretty specific and unrealistic case but this is still pretty sad :/

The point being, although it may be annoying spreading status and getting rid of items, its ultimately very easy to pressure, lure, and just in general, handle. When you look at S ranking pokemon, (aside from keldeo imo that should be A+ but anyways) none of those are particularly easy to handle.
You need to revenge kill landorus, its practically impossible to wall. Checking mega altaria always requires fast steel types or fire types, and even those can get worn down to the point where it can just blow through them. Mega metagross itself is the god and has several moves to beat each and every single one of its counters, with the stats, typing, and ability to back it up. You have to actively build your team around these dominant pokemon so as not to be destroyed by them.

But clefable? It has low stats and is relatively easy to handle. 99% of the time you can naturally cover it with good teambuilding. It's hardly ever a threat, its mostly just an annoyance, that one mon that's easy to pressure but needs to be gone for your mega gyara to sweep.
imo it's a mon that looks pretty great on paper but is fairly underwhelming in practice :L

TL; DR shitty stats means its dirt easy to check, pressure, lure, overwhelm, etc

 

[thesecondbest]

Clefable to stay in A+
The issue with it is the bad stats. Quotes:
srn: "I agree that its versatility is great, moveslots are great, typing is great, abilities are great, but it simply falls soo short on stats.
One can use the argument that it checks a bunch of stuff but in practice the amount of stuff it actually checks gets cut in half after hardly 15% prior damage or so :/ It's very reliant on being healthy to do its job, and while its not too easy to wear down, it's very easy to pressure and overwhelm.

On top of this, maybe this is just me, but I find myself being able to check clefable incredibly easy. Taunt heatran, excadrill, jirachi, talonflame, venusaur, tentacruel, spdef skarm w/iron head (does fine these days cuz fire coverage is kinda rare), mmeta, bandzor, bisharp, gengar, victini, volcorona, mega beedril, and scolipede can all check clefable."
Literally what I was about to say lol. It's too weak to deal any damage even after calm minds. Unaware can't check hazard stack offense teams and magic guard is set up fodder. It's lunch for mega meta, and simply doesn't seem like an s rank mon in the actual game. It's output is so underwhelming, and it may be attractive in the team builder, but can't do anything in battle.

 

[Laurel]

Honestly hurricane is more of a threat than an actual action on torn-t, most of the time you're really just gonna be knocking off or u-turning vs a keldeo. that's where torn-t shines, getting cheap damage with utility or pivoting. An assault vest hurricane is not too powerful (although it's pretty strong) and it's certainly not reliable, especially for stab.
"So what if it has a 30% chance to miss"
I do like winning games every now and then man :/
Not using your stab unless you have to is kinda dumb. That's like not using scald on your specs keldeo unless you have to. It's your fucking STAB, it's your main source of damage and you want it to be reliable.
"Just because 3/10 miss doesn't mean it doesn't spam"?
yes it does lol; what's the risk/reward here? Do moderate damage 70% of the time off of your AV torn-t or gauranteed momentum/item removal? Idk about you, but I and most others find ourselves doing the latter. Now if you're LO torn-t, that's a different matter, because the reward on your hurricane landing is much higher, but Mega Pidgeot's reliability is more than worth the mega stone if you're looking for a specially offensive flying type.

As far as clefable goes, I'm leaning towards putting it in A+.
I agree that its versatility is great, moveslots are great, typing is great, abilities are great, but it simply falls soo short on stats.
One can use the argument that it checks a bunch of stuff but in practice the amount of stuff it actually checks gets cut in half after hardly 15% prior damage or so :/ It's very reliant on being healthy to do its job, and while its not too easy to wear down, it's very easy to pressure and overwhelm.

On top of this, maybe this is just me, but I find myself being able to check clefable incredibly easy. Taunt heatran, excadrill, jirachi, talonflame, venusaur, tentacruel, spdef skarm w/iron head (does fine these days cuz fire coverage is kinda rare), mmeta, bandzor, bisharp, gengar, victini, volcorona, mega beedril, and scolipede can all check clefable.
This is because its easy to outspeed and anything with a strong super effective move can dent it down to the point where anything else can finish it off, even through boosts. If you really wanted to get into it, you could very well extend the list to faster banded mons, but not many of those switch in too safely. Pokemon like CB azu and mega pinsir can easily live anything clefable can do and 2hko fully physically defensive variants.

I can literally come in on clefable with a mega garchomp as it uses calm mind, set up an SD as i tank a +1 moonblast (93.7% of the time without sr)(20 hp evs on mchomp) and kill fully physically defensive variants back with stab eq 87.5% without sr of the time even outside of sand
...
does it bother anybody that fucking mega garchomp "fulfills" the criteria for being a clefable check? Yeah this is a pretty specific and unrealistic case but this is still pretty sad :/

The point being, although it may be annoying spreading status and getting rid of items, its ultimately very easy to pressure, lure, and just in general, handle. When you look at S ranking pokemon, (aside from keldeo imo that should be A+ but anyways) none of those are particularly easy to handle.
You need to revenge kill landorus, its practically impossible to wall. Checking mega altaria always requires fast steel types or fire types, and even those can get worn down to the point where it can just blow through them. Mega metagross itself is the god and has several moves to beat each and every single one of its counters, with the stats, typing, and ability to back it up. You have to actively build your team around these dominant pokemon so as not to be destroyed by them.

But clefable? It has low stats and is relatively easy to handle. 99% of the time you can naturally cover it with good teambuilding. It's hardly ever a threat, its mostly just an annoyance, that one mon that's easy to pressure but needs to be gone for your mega gyara to sweep.
imo it's a mon that looks pretty great on paper but is fairly underwhelming in practice :L

TL; DR shitty stats means its dirt easy to check, pressure, lure, overwhelm, etc

I stopped reading when you said "knock off" vs a Keldeo, LOL??? Why wouldnt you press LO Hurricane its damage output is almost always better than u-turning or knock off. Yeah lets knock off so I can get killed by Hydro Pump!!

 

[Master B8s]

I have not used clefable a lot in the past, mostly because I just don't find any use for it on the teams I make, so I'll discuss what playing against it is for me. I'm leaning towards A+. I agree with what's been said that it is easy to wear down and overwhelm, mainly because of its low stats. Usually if you have a lati switch in not named ferrothorn (flamethrower), clefable pretty much is a free switch in for them to do what they want. Srn pretty much covered most of the mons that can set up/lay their entry hazards for free against it. I usually found when using it its just so strapped for moveslots it can't run t-wave or whatever to stop the opponent from setting up. MG CM uses soft-boild + CM. that leaves two move slots, one is moonblast for stab, and the last is usually flamethrower, but focus blast is a thing to make heatran less threatening. Unaware sets wish+protect is mandatory due to its low speed. Moonblast so it's not taunt bait which leaves one move slot, and I would honestly rather run heal beal/aromatherapy (forgot which ones incompatible) over thunder wave. If you opt for stealth rocks that's another move slot that isn't switchable, so that makes clefable pretty one dimensional once you figure out the set its running. And no the Pokemon you give a free switch into are not good ones. Megagross getting a free mega and damage off hurts. Volcarona and Zard-X can get to +1 with their respective boosting move, while clefable is a sitting duck for the two even with unaware, the latter due to tough claws. Don't get me wrong, I see clefable as a great Pokemon, I just feel like its checks and counters are all too common and threatening to say that clefable defines the meta game when it gives free turns to these respected mons. It seems like an awkward place where it's more splashable than all the A+ mons, but isn't considered meta defining and unbeatable when it isn't prepared for. I just find my teams not weak to clefable like I would landorus or keldeo because of how ubiquitous and viable clefable checks are in this meta.

tl;dr: clefable is a great mon, but it isn't meta defining.

 

[Anduril]

Honestly hurricane is more of a threat than an actual action on torn-t, most of the time you're really just gonna be knocking off or u-turning vs a keldeo. that's where torn-t shines, getting cheap damage with utility or pivoting. An assault vest hurricane is not too powerful (although it's pretty strong) and it's certainly not reliable, especially for stab.
"So what if it has a 30% chance to miss"
I do like winning games every now and then man :/
Not using your stab unless you have to is kinda dumb. That's like not using scald on your specs keldeo unless you have to. It's your fucking STAB, it's your main source of damage and you want it to be reliable.
"Just because 3/10 miss doesn't mean it doesn't spam"?
yes it does lol; what's the risk/reward here? Do moderate damage 70% of the time off of your AV torn-t or gauranteed momentum/item removal? Idk about you, but I and most others find ourselves doing the latter. Now if you're LO torn-t, that's a different matter, because the reward on your hurricane landing is much higher, but Mega Pidgeot's reliability is more than worth the mega stone if you're looking for a specially offensive flying type.

The 30% chance of missing isn't really relevant when you consider it's potential damage output. When it comes to doing damage, it'll be using that or Heat Wave/Focus Blast/Superpower to do it, not Knock Off or U-Turn. Also LO Torn-T stronger than M-Pidgeot, doesn't need to use Roost to heal, and doesn't take up your mega spot, something that I think you're overlooking rather majorly.

216 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 203-239 (50.2 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 186-219 (46 - 54.2%) -- 48.4% chance to 2HKO

 

[Magcargo]

The biggest issue with Mega Pidgeot is that while it does have 100% accuracy hurricanes, it lacks many other traits that make Tornadus-T effective. It doesn't have valuable Fighting coverage to make its MU's vs things like tyranitar and Heatran easier, it doesn't have Knock off to cripple common switch-ins such as Rotom-W and Jirachi, it doesn't have taunt to prevent things like Ferrothorn from setting up hazards or clefable from setting up CMs, etc. And keep in mind this is all on top off consuming a mega slot.

I would understand Mega Pidgeot's ranking if it had a couple of other traits that could make it effective, but literally all it has over tornadus-t is 100% accurate Hurricanes and is that really worth losing out on so much more on top of having a ridiculous amount of opportunity cost?

 

[AM]

You guys do realize Mega Pidgeot is literally two whole letter ranks entirely below Torn-T right ?_? I don't even know what the legitimate argument is other than Mega Pidgeot dropping for some arbitrary reason on the merits of Torn-T when it's sort of a given just by looking at their placement alone it's already the case.

 

[Laurel]

You guys do realize Mega Pidgeot is literally two whole letter ranks entirely below Torn-T right ?_? I don't even know what the legitimate argument is other than Mega Pidgeot dropping for some arbitrary reason on the merits of Torn-T when it's sort of a given just by looking at their placement alone it's already the case.

Because its useless. Theres no reason to use it besides being cheeky. It should be like C- or D imo

 

[Clone]

Because its useless. Theres no reason to use it besides being cheeky. It should be like C- or D imo

Style would like to have a word with you.

 

[give me an A]

up to S
Definitely support this. Clefable's ability to fit on so many teams as well as offering tons of support and utility makes it a pretty much no-brainer S rank. The thing really holding it back from being Uber is its mediocre bulk, forcing it soft-boiled/moonlight often. Pokemon can be judged in 4 different areas: Ability, Movepool, Stats and Typing. Clefable excels in 3 of those 4 criteria. Clefable is also an extremely reliable stealth rock setter, as it is pretty much able to beat every defogger in the tier. Clefable can also serve as a reliable but scary win condition against stall and balance teams with its calm mind + magic guard set, which can be extremely difficult to stop once it gets going. Unaware Clefable can also act as a blanket check to multiple dangerous sweepers in Ou, such as Sub+Calm Mind Keldeo, Belly Drum Azumarill, dragon dance altaria, calm mind mega sableye, tail glow manaphy, swords dance landorus-T, calm mind ratios/mega latias and dragon dance gyarados. However, what I think puts clefable in S is its sheer adaptability. Clefable has the ability to surprise nearly all its checks with a coverage move, as well as run tons of different very viable sets, making it an unpredictable opponent to face. Some examples of this are ice beam for gliscor, thunderbolt for talonflame, focus blast for heatran, knock off for gengar, fire blast for ferrothorn/scizor/excadrill and thunder wave for a ton of sweepers and encore to turn set up pokemon into liabilities. Clefable is just so adaptable, dangerous and splashable that I fail to see the relevance of many of the counter S arguments.
Edit: Mega Pidgeot is plenty viable. The fact the you see it on the level as stuff like forretress is just absurd. Can we just stop this discussion anyway, I thought we were supposed to be focusing on clefable.

 

[AM]

Because its useless. Theres no reason to use it besides being cheeky. It should be like C- or D imo

I'm sorry dude but what in the hell are you remotely even saying? Have you followed OST at all and not watched Style use M-Pidgeot up against Bluwing and just clean him out with the Work Up set? (sorry if you read this man but I know you're actually advocating it lately so best example I can provide). Ok yeah it's a mega fantastic oh boy what a burden, with Flying STAB and perfect accuracy along with set up move for said STAB along this as well. That ability to set up while providing Refresh utility for itself is a huge trump card that Tornadus-T doesn't have where M-Pidgeot could mandate a team slot. Like man I'm sorry but all I'm getting is "it's shit don't use it" when that's just totally wrong on so many levels and it's already established Torn-T is plenty viable already and the ranking between two is already at a very large gap to show this. You're implying to put M-Pidgeot on the level of Froslass at this point, granted we plan on looking over lower ranking stuff after this but I don't even know how to respond to that.

 

[Eraxxer]

Clefable A+ to S

it’s the perfect utility mon in a sense that it can always get up sr and beat all spinners/defoggers. it’s ability + typing make it an excellent pivot or sweeper as well as a valid move pool to boot. if it wasn’t for its “poor stats” i think it’d be too much to handle. it has great utility in sr, twave, knock off, healbell, encore etc. the unaware version stops set up sweepers and clefable is just a mon that can be slapped on to any type of team. it has solid recovery in soft boiled/heal bell and two amazing abilities. It can check a whole bunch of threats in the metagame just in itself so yeah, clefable to S for me.

OK just saying it doesn't beat Excadrill as a spinner and Natural Cure Starmie is a pretty damn good spinner on it as T-Wave obviously doesn't mean too much, if it is a rare T-Bolt Clef then Reflect Type is a pretty easy move. That's just a slight nitpick.


Anyway to my thoughts on it:

It doesn't have a stat over 95. This is a terrible hindrance to it, and it is pressured massively by most offensive or balance teams to be taking hits. I'll use the Magic Guard Calm Mind set and the Physically Defensive set:

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 165-196 (41.8 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 203-239 (51.5 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 149-177 (37.8 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 184-217 (46.7 - 55%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 153-180 (38.8 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Ok that's just a small example of offensive sweepers or just generally not wall breaker Pokemon. Clef needs to choose between SpDef or Defensive to be able to actually take hits from specific things. With ~10% prior damage, it basically loses to all these Pokemon, meaning that in any given game if it wants to be able to take strong hits, it needs to maintain full health and no status if Unaware or even Para if Magic Guard. Now if we look at actual wallbreakers or things with naturally hard hits:

232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 202-238 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 246-291 (62.4 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 262-310 (66.4 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 217-256 (55 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 312-369 (79.1 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 260-307 (65.9 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 298-352 (75.6 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 246-290 (62.4 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

It can't switch in on any strong attacks, it's not even close. It's simply not bulky enough due to its poor base stats that to get a free switch you have to sac.

I'm not arguing that it's bad per se, but as a defensive Pokemon what makes it that much better than Mega Sableye, or Gliscor, both with much better stats across the board (give or take, see: Mega Sableye's speed stat).

Look at all the S-Ranked Pokemon:

Keldeo's ability to break through its hard checks with Scald makes it amazing, as a Revenge killer, late game cleaner, wallbreaker, and so on.

Mega Metagross is lucky it's not Ubers as far as I'm concerned. It's so good in OU with the ability to hit like a wallbreaker but still with 110 Base Speed and better bulk in every stat than Skarmory, plus coverage for essentially everything.

Landorus is of course probably the best thing in OU atm. It's just amazing as STAB Earth Power hits so freaking hard while it's got coverage for almost everything. It can support the team with Stealth Rocks and pull of Rock Polish as well as 4 attacks sets ridicuously easily.

Mega Altaria has so many sets, supports the team at the same time as being offensive with Heal Bell, sets up on many many things, can break through checks and requires little team support at all.

Compared to:

Clefable has set counters that it can't break through like Keldeo. It can hinder them (T-Wave Heatran, M-Venusaur, Talonflame (also thunderbolt), but that depends on its moveset, and Chansey is basically a 100% wall regardless of anything and just stalls out Clef's recovery.

MMeta's best asset is ridiculously good stats all around. Pretty much the opposite of Clef. Although I'll admit the coverage options is similar, but something like SubCM Raikou just sets up on pretty much every set.

Landorus is in a great spot in the current meta in that it's not forced to run Psychic for Venusaur (among many other factors) so it can get really good coverage. Clef hasn't really had anything happen to the meta that made it stand out- if anything, we're now seeing MMeta everywhere, Lando with Sludge Wave, Bisharp and Scizor running amuck. The fact that people need Mega Altaria checks and most of the checks for Altaria overlap with checks for Clef means it's not in the best spot.

Mega Altaria is actually similar to Clefable in that it can be an offensive, defensive and support mon at the same time. However, Altaria has many more sets and hits a shitload harder, while being able to use the fact that it walls something by actually setting up while Clef often just falls into a PP stallfest. Clef is better as a support mon without a doubt, but I'm arguing that just this doesn't give it the edge.


OK, so it's not directly comparable to most of these, although I tried to look for aspects that would make them comparable. But, I have to say that all up, it's really not standing out in this meta and that the current S-ranks are better than it by far, imo.

Clefable stay A+

 

[Laurel]

I'm sorry dude but what in the hell are you remotely even saying? Have you followed OST at all and not watched Style use M-Pidgeot up against Bluwing and just clean him out with the Work Up set? (sorry if you read this man but I know you're actually advocating it lately so best example I can provide). Ok yeah it's a mega fantastic oh boy what a burden, with Flying STAB and perfect accuracy along with set up move for said STAB along this as well. That ability to set up while providing Refresh utility for itself is a huge trump card that Tornadus-T doesn't have where M-Pidgeot could mandate a team slot. Like man I'm sorry but all I'm getting is "it's shit don't use it" when that's just totally wrong on so many levels and it's already established Torn-T is plenty viable already and the ranking between two is already at a very large gap to show this. You're implying to put M-Pidgeot on the level of Froslass at this point, granted we plan on looking over lower ranking stuff after this but I don't even know how to respond to that.

Then you didnt read what I said or what the guy saying that torn-t straight out damages it. It doesnt matter than torn-t doesnt have refresh because only para would bother it. (Which I said) im done arguing i just wanted to make Recreant mad

 

[SaberSeven]

As an avid user of Clefable, I can say that it is an extremely versatile mon that can go wall, cleric, offensive with Calm Mind, Stealth Rock, supporter, you name it. It partners well with a wide plethora of mons in the tier defensively and can do a very good job with what it does regardless of roles on the team. Unfortunately, the abundance of Sludge Wave Landorus-I, Mega Metagross, and Bisharp do put a little damper on Clefable's parade, but the ability to best a good chunk of set up mons in the tier such as Tail Glow Manaphy REALLY helps it. However, Clefable must remain healthy to check mons like this. Clefable also has access to an excellent ability in Magic Guard which prevents it from taking damage in sandstorm or take Toxic damage which would hinder Unaware sets (lacking Heal Bell). Clefable is a great mon, but I think Clefable is just fine where it is at A+.

 

[Shruggy]

Oh boy i have to say i think clefable is one of the best mons around currently and is really one of those few pokemons that is able to patch up its mediocre stats with solid mono typing and excellent, truly excellent abilities.

I can think of literally not another OU pokemon that has 2 such clutch and extremely powerful abilities in magic guard and unaware. These two are so amazing and pretty much the two combined turn clefable into a monster mon, whereas if it had just one of these abilities i suspect it would languish in the B/C ranks rather than debated for S. The sheer number of sets/moves it can run is pretty incredible as well, thanks to its Gen1 legacy it has access to many moves. Sure its most common set for MG is Moonblast/softboiled/flamethrower/CM but that doesnt stop you from running other attacking moves if you wish. It has access to the covereted Boltbeam combo, Sball/knock off/twave/focus blast/srocks/sboiled/wish/encore/aromatherapy. Hell you can even run MG toxic orb and trick, havent tried it, literally just thought of it but i bet it would work!

Like here is a number of sets which i have either seen or used or think are viable. And it doesnt matter that some are similar the fact is they are critically different and do different things.

1) Classic MG CM sweeper - You dont have to run flamethrower as your second attacking move, so many attacking options, especially if your team has fire coverage
2) Unaware tank - Have you tried thunderwave/moonlight/moonblast/knock off? It causes so many switches its really good and you are guaranteed to fuck something over in the switch. Or if you want some luls try running Magic Coat to bounce back the obvious toxic to become a pseudo M-sab
3) MG/Life orb 3 attacks set - Softboil and 3 attacking moves is underrated as well, max SPA investment and backed up by a lifeorb those moonblasts will really hurt. And you have the coverage moves to take on its switchins. Just enough bulk to be rarely OHKOd and then retaliate, often unexpected and under appreciated.
4) Unaware sweeper - Wish/Protect/CM/Moonblast. Im sure we've all faced that one stall team where last man standing is a clefable after 70+ turns and you know, just know that you wont be able to kill it before it finishes you off as you have nothing left to kill it ;_;

And im sure there are more but these 4 alone are very viable and more than what most mons have, i'd post calcs and stuff but im using my phone so its a bit annoying. Basically it avoids OHKOs from a lot of potent mons and can usually cripple them with twave then heal up so can serve as a soft check to many many pokes who cant muscle past it without boosts.

The point is that yes, its stats are mediocre. But i'd like to think that this is one of those very few mons who despite this handicap can actually be more than viable and indeed meta-defining along with the other s-rank threats. No it wont blast you away like the other 4 but as a support mon i'd say that Clefable is unparalleled currently as when you enter a battle you never know what set it is running or ability it has as it has so many viable options.

Clefable to S rank in my honest opinion.

 

[Tele]

clefable isnt as good as it used to be in xy anymore, and ill tell you why the briefest possible

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SpD
Calm Nature
- Flamethrower / Thunder Wave
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind
- Soft-Boiled

this set was by far the best set u could use on Clefable during xy, and mostly because it walled Greninja, a very fast and powerfull mon which threatened a lot of balanced teams. However, Oras introduced some pokemons and some new sets as well (which didnt exist in xy at all) which give a very very very hard time to the aforementioned MG Mixed CM Clefable set. their names are:

Contrary Serperior
Swords Dance Gliscor
Tail Glow Manaphy (well this was a thing back in xy too, but now its getting some very high usages both in ladder and tournaments)
SpeDef Talonflame (Taunt+WOW / SD+Taunt / Bulk UP+WOW, those are are the main variants)
Mega Metagross

the rise in usages of Landorus-i and Gengar is also an important factor to consider.

Now, because of mons like SD Gliscor and TG Manaphy (list could go on, like DD Altaria, NP Celebi, CM Mega latias, all things that didnt exist in xy), many people including myself (ive been a great fan of MG clefa in the past too) tend to prefer Unaware Clefable, as it's helpfull to stop all those threats. Although oras Unaware Clefable has many notable niches, its not even close to xy MG Clefa in terms of effectiveness

conclusion: Clefable isnt BY ANY MEAN an S mon

 

[BKC]

Honestly these "Clef's stats aren't good enough" arguments are almost as bad as the "Aegislash's attacks don't have high enough BP" ones... never once have I thought "damn I wish Clef had better stats" because I'm too busy being wowed at how absurdly consistently good it is. Also I don't like Unaware Clef because being worn down by hazards + sand + status (nightmare scenario: being burned by a Manaphy Scald with rocks and sand up) just blows, hell even Ferrothorn annoys it with Leech Seed. Magic Guard is a big part of what makes Clef amazing. Not saying Unaware isn't good but it's not my style. For example I'm a huge fan of having that incredibly safe switch into Rotom-W, it can't chip away with rocks + burn + Volt Switch into a counter that'd force me out again while I sit on my ass getting worn down brutally easily - all I eat is the weak Volt Switch and I'm good to come in again later rather than being crippled.

I love Clef because you've got your CM/Softboiled/Moonblast which is so effective that you can run a billion moves in its last slot and it'll stay effective because of how strong the aforementioned trio of moves is, and the last move only serves to make it even better. To attest to how effective it is, I once ran SR in the last slot, and it was as good as ever. It can adapt to its counters with such ease, giving up almost nothing; SDef Taunt Heatran gets Knocked Off and loses in the long run when switching into SR + getting chipped by Moonblasts without being able to heal, it also gets crippled by Thunder Wave which fucks with offensive bros like Mega Metagross and Poison types (Gengar/Dragalge/Mega Venusaur) that try to outrun and Sludge Bomb/Wave but fail since Clef outruns them and can CM in their face now, Ice Beam trashes SDef Gliscor and cutesy Landorus-I, Heal Bell is amazing support for your other dudes, Flamethrower is tried-and-true great coverage hitting Sciz/MegaGross/Skarm... I have no doubts it could also run Healing Wish effectively. I mean jesus christ when a mon is so good that it's able to viably run SR and HW on a fucking CM set then it must be doing something right. The only other mon I can think of who I'd ever even consider doing that on is like... DPP Jirachi, who happens to also be S rank - aka where Clefable should be now.

 

[Tele]

yea not like rotomw can volt switch and gain momentum anyway, not like clefa is set up fodder for gliscor and talonflame which are extremely popular rn especially paired with sableye, not like its completely useless against eye stall as they can trap with goth without even having to predict, not like every well built team has at least 2 bar 3 counters to this thing anyway, not like its an extremely passive mon that can be played around very easily, not like ice beam clef is extremely matchup dependant (i wont say its garbage, but it actually is), not like offense gained many checks and counters as well with the transition to oras most notably serperior and metagross, not like most megas shit on it, see mega garde sd mega hera, both chars, mega bro venu pinsir beedrill and swamp, cant even switch safely on mega piggy lol, but w/e

 

[Martin]

Tornadus-T doesn't care about getting statused other than thunder wave (which wont happen)

lol. Tornadus-T absolutely hates status. Even with Regenerator, it doesn't want to be forced out v.s. the stuff that it has come in to check. It also severely hurts its longevity as it needs to be able to pivot reliably. Also, the fact that you are saying that it won't ever get thunder waved is implying that you are never going to mispredict/get caught out, which really shows that you underestimate how common Thunder Wave (and Glare 'cause its an amazing Serp switch-in) really are. Mega Pidgeot is good, and the fact that you are comparing them despite the fact that it and Torn-T play completely different roles (for AV Torn-T, that is, as LO is not as splashable and isn't as good (strong emphasis on "as") is beyond me. Sure they're both special Flying-types, but that is where the similarities stop. One does not outclass the other.

 

[North Gate]

yea not like rotomw can volt switch and gain momentum anyway, not like clefa is set up fodder for gliscor and talonflame which are extremely popular rn especially paired with sableye, not like its completely useless against eye stall as they can trap with goth without even having to predict, not like every well built team has at least 2 bar 3 counters to this thing anyway, not like its an extremely passive mon that can be played around very easily, not like ice beam clef is extremely matchup dependant (i wont say its garbage, but it actually is), not like offense gained many checks and counters as well with the transition to oras most notably serperior and metagross, not like most megas shit on it, see mega garde sd mega hera, both chars, mega bro venu pinsir beedrill and swamp, cant even switch safely on mega piggy lol, but w/e

nitpick: thunderbolt clef is a thing ._., plus clef gets ice beam, it gets coverage for a lot of shit

 

[QuickBH]

nitpick: thunderbolt clef is a thing ._., plus clef gets ice beam, it gets coverage for a lot of shit

Undecided on whether Clefable should be A+ or S rank, personally. However, they are hardly relevant because sacrificing Fire Blast/Focus Blast on Clefable or Moonblast on the SR/Cleric set is just really gimmicky ESPECIALLY for the latter. I'm not giving up my main STAB/coverage move just to hit one Pokemon that won't expecting the hit. Therefore, by any reasonable extent, Gliscor and Talonflame do really well against Clefable.

 

[North Gate]

Let me be honest here, I've run a MG LO offensive lure Clefable before and it can put it work, luring in common checks to Clefable like Gliscor or many of the common things said above, 3 attacks + Soft Boiled was what I used and while it sacrificed utility and some bulk, but it allows you to hit many of Clefable's checks, and some if your team struggles with them, effectively. You could bluff Calm Mind LO MG and go into a 'Mon that you set up on, and if you predict correctly, knock them down with coverage, outside of very select teams I wouldn't use it, as it kinda demolishes most of Clefable's niche to give it the ability to surprise opponents and maybe get a free kill.