Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[Ksh13]

Is honchkrow a D rank material? I think he is outclassed by bisharp or other brids(even with moxie). I think he is usless then ludicolo and exploud.

I do believe Honchkrow is worthy of D rank. It has the ability to Pursuit trap things, get up a Moxie boost, and play some real mindgames with Sucker Punch at +1. I might not be the fastest bird around, and outclassed by others, but many of the other D rank pokemon are outclassed by others. That is why they are not higher up on the rankings.

 

[valetta]

Honchkrow is actually a pretty fun mon to use, and i'm glad its brought up because like a month ago i built a cool honch team and it just does exactly what its supposed to do. With a 136+ att / 118 spa / 252 spe it actually 2hkoes almost the whole tier+it forces a lot of switches with sucker punch which can be crucial for getting a moxie boost and cleaning their team up. I mean, the only mons that actually safely switch into this monster are tankchomp (still takes ~50% from bb) gliscor, sdef skarm if lacking heat wave, zapdos and hippo, since it 2hkoes standard clef, sableye, phys def skarm, has the opportunity to run heat wave or superpower in the last slot to beat ferro/sdef tran that try to come in. It sucks that it gets worn down really fast so it rarely stays in the battle for 3+ turns, but when it does go down, it more than likely already did its job - punching holes.
Heres a few calcs on how strong this thing actually is

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136+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 153-183 (50.3 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
136+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 220-259 (55.8 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
118 SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 317-374 (90 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (goes down after some prior damage)
118 SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 175-207 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
118 SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 187-221 (55.9 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
136+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 218-257 (51.9 - 61.1%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
118 SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 122-146 (40.2 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (2HKO after a bit of damage)
136+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Sylveon: 243-289 (61.6 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
136+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 320-377 (83.1 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (this + bb kills)
118 SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 307-361 (77.9 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (this + bb kills)
136+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 302-356 (75.3 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (this + sucker kills)
136+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 208-246 (59 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal


assuming youve already killed something:
+1 136+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 273-321 (85.5 - 100.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 136+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 261-308 (89.6 - 105.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 136+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 251-296 (64.1 - 75.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 136+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 251-296 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 136+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 378-446 (104.4 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 136+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 317-374 (96.3 - 113.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 136+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 302-356 (90.9 - 107.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

tl;dr This mon isnt that great as it gets worn down really quickly due to bb+lo recoil, but it tears apart balance, forces a ton of switches, can effectively clean, and is actually somewhat of a threat with rocks up (even better with spikes). Definitively on a higher level than cloyster/haxorus/other d rank mons so it should, in my opinion, rise to C-

edit: a cool replay of krow cleaning up late game with rocks support and their team weakened http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-233424947

 

[North Gate]

Is honchkrow a D rank material? I think he is outclassed by bisharp or other brids(even with moxie). I think he is usless then ludicolo and exploud.

Ability to use Heat Wave while actually having a decent mixed presence and good attack with priority make it semi useful in breaking some things that Bisharp can't and it's not outclassed by many birds because of it's mixed potential.

Edit: Pursuit is cool as well as it's like the only decent bird with Pursuit STAB. And yeah. D rank is mostly outclassed but they have a decent niche that can actually work.

 

[DennisEG]

About manaphy being S Rank i dont think so, is just a great mons for Balance and that it, lose to offense and an unaware mon too so yeah should be A+, i think tornT which is a popular mon rn dont deserve to be in A+ just A is fine, cuz yeah is a great pivot/support/bulk it hasn't to much offensive power or boosting moves to be A+ imo, and last i suggest to move Alakazam to A at least the normal form with LO is jsut such a threat, only cuz is a frail mon doesn't mean is a bad mon or a B Rank mon, is fast/powerfull and great movepool having access to encore/taunt for those nasty stalls

 

[AM]

Gliscor: A+ > A
Alakazam: B > B+
Garchomp Mega: B- > B
Conkeldurr: B > B-

Kind of obvious with ranking team and those I talked to so these are going through. I can provide reasoning if need be but I think these 4 right now are a given.

 

[Martin]

Gliscor: A+ > A
Alakazam: B > B+
Garchomp Mega: B- > B
Conkeldurr: B > B-

Kind of obvious with ranking team and those I talked to so these are going through. I can provide reasoning if need be but I think these 4 right now are a given.

Could you just explain the Gliscor change for me? It may just be me being ignorant and having a brain fart, but I can't quite put my finger on the reason for the drop. Not complaining, just wondering what the motive was.

 

[SketchUp]

Could you just explain the Gliscor change for me? It may just be me being ignorant and having a brain fart, but I can't quite put my finger on the reason for the drop. Not complaining, just wondering what the motive was.

Post by Albacore explains it pretty well:

I’m not really sure about Gliscor's A+ rank worthiness as this point in the metagame. A couple of months when SD Gliscor was still a novelty ago definitely, definitely, but now? As it turns out, Gliscor has the unfortunate distinction of a) being a special wall with a 4x weakness and b) being annoying enough to prompt certain players to dedicate a moveslot on some of their Pokemon just to break past it. This means HP Ice. HP Ice on Landorus primarily, but also HP Ice (or Icy Wind I guess) on Gengar, HP Ice on Torndaus-T, Ice Beam on Clefable. I wouldn’t even be surprised to see an HP Ice Diancie one of these days. And now, Gliscor can’t reliably handle a lot of the stuff it sed to be able to. It’s stil la good physical wall, but one of the main things which made it A+ rank was its specail walling capabilities, which have become compromised recently by this rise in Ice coverage intended not just for it, but also Landorus. It’s just not as reliable as it used to be, and feels more on par with Hippowdon to me

 

[DennisEG]

Gliscor: A+ > A
Alakazam: B > B+
Garchomp Mega: B- > B
Conkeldurr: B > B-

Kind of obvious with ranking team and those I talked to so these are going through. I can provide reasoning if need be but I think these 4 right now are a given.

I think gliscor should be A+ dispite of Albacore post just because we are currently suspecting Lando I which is one of those mons can hko the Spdef gliscor people running around, when this lando I got ban this is gonna be a real spdef monster with that SD set that threat balance/stall/an unprepare offense too wouldn't surprise after the suspect gliscor comback to be a A+ threat.

Alakazam finally is getting the rank he deserve, for the other side i didn't see to much Chomp Mega latelly on ladder for considering Rank B mon and i think yes is a powerhouse mon but isn't that faster to be threaten by this mon.

 

[AM]

I think gliscor should be A+ dispite of Albacore post just because we are currently suspecting Lando I which is one of those mons can hko the Spdef gliscor people running around, when this lando I got ban this is gonna be a real spdef monster with that SD set that threat balance/stall/an unprepare offense too wouldn't surprise after the suspect gliscor comback to be a A+ threat.

Alakazam finally is getting the rank he deserve, for the other side i didn't see to much Chomp Mega latelly on ladder for considering Rank B mon and i think yes is a powerhouse mon but isn't that faster to be threaten by this mon.

Suspects either the addition or removal of said suspects have no correlation the viability rankings because they don't account for the actual current meta in its natural state, as in the one without Landorus since it's a suspect meta, not the actual one. This is about your point on Gliscor btw.

 

[DennisEG]

Suspects either the addition or removal of said suspects have no correlation the viability rankings because they don't account for the actual current meta in its natural state, as in the one without Landorus since it's a suspect meta, not the actual one. This is about your point on Gliscor btw.

ye i know just saying that gliscor will be A+ after suspect ! just because is such a nice mon, i campare this mon to the rise in popularity of torn t, check a lot of the meta and it is a versatil mon with access to boosting move, recovery mon and an aceptable movepool

 

[DennisEG]

Suspect Tests have no effect on the viability of Pokemon until the decision to ban/unban/whatever is made. Lando-I being suspected means nothing at all until it is actually banned, if it is banned. On a side note I don't think Lando-I should be banned but whatever.

Mega Chomp is not meant to be fast. In fact as a wallbreaker it is pretty fast and it hits ridiculously unbelievably hard.

about mega chomp ye i know the function of wallbreaking but is weak to the most common types in the OU metagame such as fairies/ice/dragon and on top of that is not even that common, i think Infernape is better than chomp and still B- just because could be running mix as well as chomp an sd set too and have same or better movepool and resistences of common prior moves like BP or Sucker which Garchomp dont

 

[Clone]

about mega chomp ye i know the function of wallbreaking but is weak to the most common types in the OU metagame such as fairies/ice/dragon and on top of that is not even that common, i think Infernape is better than chomp and still B- just because could be running mix as well as chomp an sd set too and have same or better movepool and resistences of common prior moves like BP or Sucker which Garchomp dont

Mega Chomp being weak to those types doesnt mean much when its bulk is astronomically high for an offensive mon. Its also meant to be used as a wallbreaker, and its a damn good one at that. Whether or not Infernape is a better mon is debatable, but if you want it to move up then make a nom for it, not try and get Garchomp to move back down when its clearly a cut above the mons in B-.

Edited for clarity

 

[Clone]

I would have to disagree with Infernape being a debatable better wallbreaker than Megachomp. Megachomp's massive attack stat and good Special attack stat make carving through normally bulk Pokemon commonplace to it. Megachomp can tear its way through most teams, outright destroying stall if it gets a Swords Dance up after the enemy Unaware user is down. Infernape does have more utility, but the two can not be compared in terms of raw 1st or 2nd turn wallbreaking power in my eyes.

I said as a mon as a whole, not as a wallbreaker. I would never say that Megachomp is a worse wallbreaker than anything other than Manaphy, Lando, or a select few megas, and even then that's debatable. It doesn't really matter though, since this has nothing to do with my post.

 

[new man]

about mega chomp ye i know the function of wallbreaking but is weak to the most common types in the OU metagame such as fairies/ice/dragon and on top of that is not even that common, i think Infernape is better than chomp and still B- just because could be running mix as well as chomp an sd set too and have same or better movepool and resistences of common prior moves like BP or Sucker which Garchomp dont

infernape isn't a wallbreaker though. especially when you consider mchomp's adamant outrage does more damage than ape's adamant (which nobody runs) LO/iron fist boosted close combat on a neutral hit. also consider that chomp gets a swords dance in a little easier thanks to its bulk and typing, since ape struggles to take neutral hits and can really only boost on a switch or favourable matchup. and you're implying megachomp can't run an effective mixed set when it possesses the same offenses as black kyurem? and the most common offensive types in OU plague infernape nonetheless (flying, ground, water); so how can you say chomp has trouble with fairy/dragon types (obviously ice is a problem)? priority moves like sciz's BP or bisharp's sucker punch only hit ape for marginally lower amounts of damage, too. add that on top of the fact that running bulk on mega garchomp is acceptable whereas ape has to conform to the investment of others in the same speed tier (e.g. keldeo, terrakion). please clarify how (and in what roles) infernape is "BETTER THAN CHOMP", because when you bring up wallbreaking potential, i wholeheartedly disagree.

 

[Vxy]

infernape isn't a wallbreaker though. especially when you consider mchomp's adamant outrage does more damage than ape's adamant (which nobody runs) LO/iron fist boosted close combat on a neutral hit. also consider that chomp gets a swords dance in a little easier thanks to its bulk and typing, since ape struggles to take neutral hits and can really only boost on a switch or favourable matchup. and you're implying megachomp can't run an effective mixed set when it possesses the same offenses as black kyurem? and the most common offensive types in OU plague infernape nonetheless (flying, ground, water); so how can you say chomp has trouble with fairy/dragon types (obviously ice is a problem)? priority moves like sciz's BP or bisharp's sucker punch only hit ape for marginally lower amounts of damage, too. add that on top of the fact that running bulk on mega garchomp is acceptable whereas ape has to conform to the investment of others in the same speed tier (e.g. keldeo, terrakion). please clarify how (and in what roles) infernape is "BETTER THAN CHOMP", because when you bring up wallbreaking potential, i wholeheartedly disagree.

You don't need to hit as hard as Adamant Mega Garchomp's Outrage (which actually nobody uses) to be considered a wallbreaker lol. There's very few things that CAN hit that hard or harder. Also yes LO MixApe is a wallbreaker, and a good one at that. He thinks that, as a whole, Infernape is a better Pokemon than Mega Garchomp. Infernape does have far more sets, a better movepool but I agree with you when you say Mega Garchomp is better as a wallbreaker.

Also why are we comparing roles here lol

 

[QuickBH]

Why is Infernape being compared to with Mega Garchomp at all?

Like, they are completely different Pokemon with different roles. You use them for significantly different scenarios so I see no reason for the comparison at all. :P

 

[DennisEG]

Why is Infernape being compared to with Mega Garchomp at all?

Like, they are completely different Pokemon with different roles. You use them for significantly different scenarios so I see no reason for the comparison at all. :P

Exacly it just a silly argunment of me to move out Mchomp to B- but i guess the bulk make it a lil bit more good as a wallbreaker function then the other mons in the Rank B-

 

[AM]

Jukain is leaving Ranking Team, TDK is taking his place.

 

[GlassVeins]

We'll miss you, Jukain, even though you didn't post here tons! welcome, TDK!

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Welcome TDK! Hope the viability forum treats you well. :)

 

[AlphaGiratina]

Clefable is S now? Damn it.
Anyway, I haven't played OU in a clean month, can someone please explain to me why the hell Mega Slowbro has the dubious honor of being placed below his non-Mega Evolved counterpart? Is regenerator that big a factor? Because when I last checked it was an excellent CM user that has a higher SpAtk than Keldeo so it stings like the devil when it attacks, can rest or slack off, has a very wide movepool and puts immense pressure on opposing teams. It needs such little support to get going too! I mean please correct me if I'm wrong, but I never saw Mega Slowbro as Mega Aerodactyl threat level in terms of viability, I thought it was much more dangerous. Again, I haven't played in a cleeeeean month.

 

[bludz]

I think the big thing is that Calm Mind regular Slowbro has gained popularity as a set and it's a lot more splashable (no Mega slot) + Regenerator. Thus Mega Slowbro is a little less viable despite it still being a big threat.

Also you gotta consider the rise in wallbreakers like Manaphy and Serperior which kinda just sweep through it

 

[ryan]

Charizard-X is absolutely A+ rank material, heck I'd even consider it for S rank if it wasn't for the crippling SR weakness. It just needs a couple of things like Hippowdon and Slowbro weakenes and it can usually just sweep teams completely. And while it's not quteas good in practice as it may seem due to Flare Blitz recoil making pivoting bewteen a Flare Blitz target and a Fire-weak Pokemon one way you can beat it, but not only do you need to predict perfectly, but the team becomes severly weakened as a result so XZard has still done its job.

As for XZard being medicore without a Dragon Dance, that isn't true at all. It has a fantastic typing which enables it to check and counter the likes of Scizor, Ferrothorn, YZard, Sableye, Thundurus, Rotom-W, Manectric, Celebi, Volcarona, Mew, Raikou, Jirachi and more, all the while hitting ridiculously hard. I'd argue that Mega Gyarados is far less threatening than Charizard without a boost : it's slower, weaker, has no recovery, and is much easier to check. And from experience, XZard can find a lot of opportunities to set up thanks to its access to recovery which is a huge advantage over MGyara. And this immediate offensive presence lets it weaken its swicthins more easily, which in turn enables it to more consistently put in work against teams it knows it cannot sweep than MGyara or, let's be honest here, Offnesive MAltaria who doesn't really wall that much with full offensive investement. So yeah, please don't drop XZard, it's a beast and well deserves A+ rank.

generally speaking, no, zard x isn't mediocre without a dragon dance. it's just mediocre without a dragon dance against offense, which is easily the best playstyle right now because of how well it handles landorus. checking sableye is nearly irrelevant because sableye sucks in this meta (definitely shouldn't be a+) and is easy to check with other mons. rotom-w, manectric, celebi, raikou, all really easy to check as well. pretty sure you're joking about celebi because it gives a free switch to half the meta. yes, mega gyarados is technically less threatening on paper before a boost than mega charizard is, but it's also easier to set up, which was the entire point of that comparison and which makes it better against offense, which is still the best playstyle in this meta since two minutes ago since i last typed it. also "teams that mega gyara can't sweep" good one. no, offensive mega altaria doesn't wall much, but it finds more opportunities to set up because of its killer typing(s).

i just dont see this meta being kind to zard x don't shoot me!

 

[Jaroda]

Charizard X - You know, I see merit both ways, and I've been using CharX a lot recently. Megavolving early isn't difficult, and a physical sweeper immune to burn, able to handle the majority of the metagame with its STABs alone, and access to recovery are all phenomenal unique assets. That said there are a ton of trending threats that are bad news. For many match ups its a case of "who sets up first", which X has more difficulty doing than others like Protect/Magic Bounce Mega Diancie, Fake Out Mega Lopunny, Intimidate Mega Gyarados, etc. It is kind of debilitating in comparison if CharX has to Roost off the damage from coming in, maintaining its average speed tier. Diancie, Lopunny, and Metagross for example get HUGE speed buffs, making them more dangerous for the remainder of the match. It just doesn't auto-sweep anymore and at the very least, I think normal Jolly DD sets aren't as good currently. I'm not sure how the bulky WoW sets perform in comparison. CharX is still amazing, but it's kind of hard to disagree that current meta trends make him less effective, so a drop to A seems justifiable.

Infernape used to be a renown mixed wallbreaker back when its 108 speed tier was more valuable. And while its speed arguably isn't as important now as before, a mixed NP set with Fire Blast, Close Combat and HP Ice/Grass Knot can be very valuable for certain teams that need to be able to tear through a plethora of balance cores consisting of Heatran, Ferrothorn, Slowbro, Gliscor, Celebi, Jirachi, Hippowdon, etc.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 468-551 (118.7 - 139.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 660-777 (157.1 - 185%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 367-433 (104.2 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 476-562 (124.6 - 147.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 577-681 (89.8 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 572-678 (141.5 - 167.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 355-419 (116.7 - 137.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Being defensively suited for Bisharp, Weavile and Scizor is also nice. I think that makes it B class and at least, if not more useful, than say Hawlucha, Crawdaunt, Mega Beedrill and Mega Sharpedo.

 

[bludz]

While an argument that the current metagame is unfavorable to Mega Charizard X is understandable, it really just doesn't belong in A rank when you compare it to the other pokemon there.

It's absolutely a larger threat to account for in teambuilding and more metagame defining than anything in A rank. On top of that it really doesn't have all that many hard stops - Hippo, Slowbro, Mega Alt - while all quite common are really the only counters that aren't easily worn down to the point that Zard X just blasts through after a DD. Fire / Dragon is just way too good of an offensive typing and with Charizard X's capabilities I really don't see a good argument being made here for it to drop. This is similar to the times Azumarill was nominated to drop: just based on the typing and offensive capabilities it's too metagame defining compared to the pokemon in A rank to justify a drop.