Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[Karxrida]

Roost is a more consistent healing move than Morning Sun because it's not weather dependent and has more PP, and Xatu has a couple of moves that Espeon doens't like Foul Play, Night Shade, and Thunder Wave.

Besides, E-Rank is the "shit, but somewhat viable on specific teams shit" rank anyway.

 

[WebBowser]

Roost is a more consistent healing move than Morning Sun because it's not weather dependent and has more PP, and Xatu has a couple of moves that Espeon doens't like Foul Play, Night Shade, and Thunder Wave.

Besides, E-Rank is the "shit, but somewhat viable on specific teams shit" rank anyway.

I earnestly can't think of anything on your typical sand or rain team that Xatu is roosting in front of. U-Turn is alright, but espeon has BP which is almost just as good, I guess foul play might deter things from setting up in front of it, but espeon is offensively threatening enough that you can deter most setup sweepers pretty nicely anyway. Night Shade is garbage. That pretty much leaves Thunder Wave, which is a good move that espeon doesn't have.

Is thunder wave Xatu really worth using over espeon ever?

 

[Machi]

I earnestly can't think of anything on your typical sand or rain team that Xatu is roosting in front of. U-Turn is alright, but espeon has BP which is almost just as good, I guess foul play might deter things from setting up in front of it, but espeon is offensively threatening enough that you can deter most setup sweepers pretty nicely anyway. Night Shade is garbage. That pretty much leaves Thunder Wave, which is a good move that espeon doesn't have.

Is thunder wave Xatu really worth using over espeon ever?

Well it certainly helps as between Toxic in making sure it isn't entirely set up fodder, or just plain screwing switch ins. I also think you're dismissing nightshade too quickly when it offers a consistent damage output, which makes for better good chip damage -- that helps when you need to get that % off your opponent for your lures to OHKO. That said the set that tends to see popular use with Xatu is the defensive rocky helmet which fits well into Volt-turn teams. Wherein U-turn really shines since you want to rack up the chip damage or status the predicted switch in, or at times lure a set up sweeper only to T-Wave them.

Yes Espeon has BP but obviously that doesn't quite fit into a Volt-turn team, moreover you've downplayed the defensive merit of Flying typing which helps in adding another fighting resistance (x4 overall) and grass (which helps down the line in being a good answer against Ferrothorn).

Edit: And ground immunity but yeah I think the point is if there is any defensive switch ins or merits to Xatu it is actually because of what flying typing offers than psychic. I wouldn't really overthink its placement since it is no different than other mons on the list who really on do well in say Trick room, same can be said of Xatu in finding niche use in volt-turn (which is a lot easier and forgiving in use than TR).

 

[astroboy]

been thinking about this a fair amount, but id like nominate mega absol for c- (or d but lol theres a lot of fanboys so thats not gonna happen)

absol was pretty hyped up at the beginning of oras as a counter to mega sable and access to play rough, but i think now that the meta has settled to an extent, we should reevaluate this. recent metagame trends, such as the drop in usage of mega sableye and spikes in usage for clefable, mega scizor, and infernape. weavile is also goddamn amazing at the moment, and it gives absol huge competition as a dark type that excels versus offense, while weavile has a nifty ice typing, letting it shit on the ever-so-common ground types, more speed to even outpace things like torn-t, and not taking up a mega slot. all of these factors create an unfavorable enviroment for absol and yeah. its best set atm is probably the mixed set, which pairs well with fellow dark types (scarftar, bish, or WEAVILE), using fire blast to lure in scizor and play rough to heavily dent keldeo, so the partnering dark type can wreak havok. theres not really a situation in which i would think, "wow, mega absol is a perfect fit for my team!", due to its frailty, and oppurtunity cost in being a mega. i know the oppurtunity cost argument has been beaten into the dirt for really any mega, but absol in particular suffers this, as is more often than not outclassed (i use this term loosely and for lack of a better term) by non-megas, particularly weavile and bisharp, who are more powerful, have great secondary typings and stabs to handle ground and fairy types, respectively.

tldr: rise of its checks and counters make absol hard to pull off in this meta, purely physical faces stiff competition from the incredibly popular weavile and bisharp, but mixed sets arent too bad and it still has a great speed tier to shit on offense so it should atleast be ranked.

on mobile, sorry if this was sloppy :x

edit: AY POST 1337

 

[Force Majeure]

I love a stupid sideshow from people who clearly didn't read post 1268 as much as the next guy, but please can we leave E-Rank stuff to PMs? It's a bit of clutter.

 

[QuickBH]

astroboy Great post, but you forgot to mention the fact that Mega Absol is absolutely frail. I swear if Mega Absol didn't have worse defensive stats than an offensive Infernape and could actually take a Thunderbolt from Thundurus a mixed set would have some niche since it could separate itself via priority Sucker Punch and Magic Bounce. Unfortunately, if Mega Absol can't kill the opponent it will be removed by the opponent.

 

[DarkNostalgia]

been thinking about this a fair amount, but id like nominate mega absol for c- (or d but lol theres a lot of fanboys so thats not gonna happen)

absol was pretty hyped up at the beginning of oras as a counter to mega sable and access to play rough, but i think now that the meta has settled to an extent, we should reevaluate this. recent metagame trends, such as the drop in usage of mega sableye and spikes in usage for clefable, mega scizor, and infernape. weavile is also goddamn amazing at the moment, and it gives absol huge competition as a dark type that excels versus offense, while weavile has a nifty ice typing, letting it shit on the ever-so-common ground types, more speed to even outpace things like torn-t, and not taking up a mega slot. all of these factors create an unfavorable enviroment for absol and yeah. its best set atm is probably the mixed set, which pairs well with fellow dark types (scarftar, bish, or WEAVILE), using fire blast to lure in scizor and play rough to heavily dent keldeo, so the partnering dark type can wreak havok. theres not really a situation in which i would think, "wow, mega absol is a perfect fit for my team!", due to its frailty, and oppurtunity cost in being a mega. i know the oppurtunity cost argument has been beaten into the dirt for really any mega, but absol in particular suffers this, as is more often than not outclassed (i use this term loosely and for lack of a better term) by non-megas, particularly weavile and bisharp, who are more powerful, have great secondary typings and stabs to handle ground and fairy types, respectively.

tldr: rise of its checks and counters make absol hard to pull off in this meta, purely physical faces stiff competition from the incredibly popular weavile and bisharp, but mixed sets arent too bad and it still has a great speed tier to shit on offense so it should atleast be ranked.

on mobile, sorry if this was sloppy :x

edit: AY POST 1337

Heh I'm being honest here, even though I'm like the number one Absol fanboy (or girl, if you're Recreant and think I'm a girl), but I'm not sure that Mega Absol really is on the level of some of the C- ranks. Is it really on the level of garbage stuff like Espeon, Smeargle, and Noivern? I mean, I could definitely see it at C-, but is it on the level of Smeargle? I'm speaking from experience, as I've used Absol quite a lot, and I can definitely speak of its underwhelming-ness. Swords Dance sets find little to zero opportunities to set up - I can only think of super passive shit like Chansey or choice-locked Psychics and Ghosts, and the latter don't really exist bar uncommon stuff like Scarf Gengar or Latios. Play Rough provides good coverage, but a +2 Play Rough actually isn't that strong in practice, failing to KO stuff like Bisharp, which is really problematic when Absol's sweep gets halted like that - it can be somewhat remedied with Superpower, but the Attack drops and the inability to deal with the likes of Keldeo is problematic. Mega Absol really is overhyped - Swords Dance sets struggle against Mega Sableye actually, because at +2, Foul Play cleanly OHKOes, so Absol actually can't set up on Sableye. Onto the mixed set - I've used this one a bit less, but it's pretty underwhelming in practice as well, relying on hitting the likes of Ferrothorn and Landorus-T on the switch in order to 2HKO them. It's also strapped for moveslots between Knock Off / Play Rough / Sucker Punch / Ice Beam / Fire Blast and it's not that strong actually. I'll agree that it's probably its best set at the moment, but it's still pretty unwhelming. Astroboy pretty much got everything - competition from Dark-types, lackluster bulk, literally zero chances to setup. Absol does have a great Speed tier so I'll give you that, but in the end I could definitely see it go down to C-, but that might be pushing it too far because Absol =/= Smeargle shittiness.

 

[Roonil Wazlib]

Hi, I'm new and a noob. While reading through the rankings, there are a couple of things that strike me as slightly odd. I'd appreciate it if some one can please clairfy.

1. Politoed: I understand that being the only OU allowed Drizzle user is very unique and valuable. However, it seems to me that other than Drizzle, Politoed is a pretty mediocre Pokemon. It struggles to pull off a successful offensive set, while the defensive set often causes a loss in momentum on an offensive rain team. I mean sure it can hope for a Scald hax or spread Toxic, but IMO it still gives free turns to too many things. Is it just Drizzle that carried it to A- or is there something about Politoed that I'm missing here?

2. Mega Alakazam: with its speed tier, offenses and movepool, this is far from a bad mon. But it doesn't hit as hard as Life Orb (and this is a mon that really needs to hit as hard as possible, since it can't take hits like, at all), nor does it have the utility of Focus Sash revenge killing even speed boosting threats or those with priority. Plus it takes up a Mega slot hence more opportunity cost. Ability wise, Trace can work wonders at times, but I would say Magic Guard is a more consistent ability and I definitely wouldn't give Trace the edge. The only things I see in Mega Alakazam that beats regular Alakazam is the godly speed tier (that it doesn't even get to utilize on the turn it Mega Evolves), but it comes with what I feel is a much higher opportunity cost. From my really inexperienced point of view, it feels like that these two should be in the same subrank, and I'm a bit surprised to see Mega Alakazam ranked higher.

Anyway, sorry if the questions seem dumb or if their answers are hidden in the 50+ previous pages...

 

[Karxrida]

Hi, I'm new and a noob. While reading through the rankings, there are a couple of things that strike me as slightly odd. I'd appreciate it if some one can please clairfy.

1. Politoed: I understand that being the only OU allowed Drizzle user is very unique and valuable. However, it seems to me that other than Drizzle, Politoed is a pretty mediocre Pokemon. It struggles to pull off a successful offensive set, while the defensive set often causes a loss in momentum on an offensive rain team. I mean sure it can hope for a Scald hax or spread Toxic, but IMO it still gives free turns to too many things. Is it just Drizzle that carried it to A- or is there something about Politoed that I'm missing here?

2. Mega Alakazam: with its speed tier, offenses and movepool, this is far from a bad mon. But it doesn't hit as hard as Life Orb (and this is a mon that really needs to hit as hard as possible, since it can't take hits like, at all), nor does it have the utility of Focus Sash revenge killing even speed boosting threats or those with priority. Plus it takes up a Mega slot hence more opportunity cost. Ability wise, Trace can work wonders at times, but I would say Magic Guard is a more consistent ability and I definitely wouldn't give Trace the edge. The only things I see in Mega Alakazam that beats regular Alakazam is the godly speed tier (that it doesn't even get to utilize on the turn it Mega Evolves), but it comes with what I feel is a much higher opportunity cost. From my really inexperienced point of view, it feels like that these two should be in the same subrank, and I'm a bit surprised to see Mega Alakazam ranked higher.

Anyway, sorry if the questions seem dumb or if their answers are hidden in the 50+ previous pages...

Hello, and welcome!

Politoed is ranked at A- because it gives valuable support to Swift Swimmers with Drizzle and can provide switch-in opportunities with Encore/Hypnosis. It's very splashable since it only really needs one Swimmer to support, giving you some flexibility in teambuilding.

For Mega Alakazam, it's basically what you said; it has a nearly unrivaled Speed tier backed by Trace and a stupidly high Special Attack. Though normal Alakazam has gone up in the rankings in the past few months, and you bring up some good points about opportunity cost and Trace being situtional for Mega Zam.

I hope this was helpful.

 

[Eckleburg]

I love a stupid sideshow from people who clearly didn't read post 1268 as much as the next guy, but please can we leave E-Rank stuff to PMs? It's a bit of clutter.

AM: [...] Most of these I can explain in a bit more depth like Jolteon, Slurpuff, Aerodactyl, etc. if necessary but stuff like Stunfisk you probably saw already being discussed here and things like Poliwrath as well. If you have used it or seen it you're free to explain what it does but don't say "I'm not sure but my guess is...." or anything similar. Don't guess, know, otherwise I'll be inclined to delete the comment. This is the really important part that I can't emphasize enough.....

Any E rank related noms need to be personally messaged, in a PM, to myself ONLY. E rank noms both for E rank and going to D as well as D going to E posted in thread will be deleted. Mods are free to delete these posts if they read this message without prior warning using this post as their reasoning. [...]

After reading AM's post again, I think it's free to ask why something is ranked. Especially if some Pokémon are only descriped in one sentence. Just the nomination is PM-only, which makes sense, because that's the thing that 'cluttered' the thread many times.

I'm already here, so I have a question, too:
Moltres is in E-Rank for 125 Base Stab Specs Hurricane in rain. It hits like a truck, sure. But my question is: Isn't it strongly outclassed by Tornadus (Normal-Form)? It has 125 Base, too. Flying stab, too. It's faster (90 Moltres compared to 111 Tornadus, which is a pretty good speed tier). It only has a 1/4 SR weakness, not a 1/2 weakness. And it has Prankster, i.e. in the last slot you can put utility moves like Tailwind etc., as you can see in CB Talonflame's case for example.

Outside of rain, you have Stab Fireblast with Moltres (you should spam Hurricane in rain most of the time anyways), but outside of rain, a Specs Heat Wave from Tornadus would kill its targets, too, i.e. Steel types and other stuff, especially Scizor, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, etc. And during the rain, fire coverage really shouldn't be used. So it's not worth mentioning.

But since Hurricane in rain is the only real niche, I'm just curious about Moltres' ranking. Thank you for your answers.


Regards,
Eckleburg

EDIT:
Roonil Wazlib: Besides what Karxrida said, Politoed has Perish Song + Encore, too. Therefore, it isn't completely set-up bait. In fact, it -is- real support. With rain, supporting moves, decent offensive presence with Scald in rain (even with defensive builds, which you should be using anyways. Offensive builds aren't that good, only in BW Meta, logically.) it's indeed the best support for an entire playstyle. Or 'the face of rain'.
gamer boy: The niche is the Specs Hurricane Set, I don't think Roost is the answer.

 

[Martin]

After reading AM's post again, I think it's free to ask why something is ranked. Especially if some Pokémon are only descriped in one sentence. Just the nomination is PM-only, which makes sense, because that's the thing that 'cluttered' the thread many times.

I'm already here, so I have a question, too:
Moltres is in E-Rank for 125 Base Stab Specs Hurricane in rain. It hits like a truck, sure. But my question is: Isn't it strongly outclassed by Tornadus (Normal-Form)? It has 125 Base, too. Flying stab, too. It's faster (90 Moltres compared to 111 Tornadus, which is a pretty good speed tier). It only has a 1/4 SR weakness, not a 1/2 weakness. And it has Prankster, i.e. in the last slot you can put utility moves like Tailwind etc., as you can see by CB Talonflame for example.

Outside of rain, you have Stab Fireblast with Moltres (you should spam Hurricane in rain most of the time anyways), but outside of rain, a Specs Heat Wave from Tornadus would kill its targets, too, i.e. Steel types and other stuff, especially Scizor, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, etc. And during the rain, fire coverage really shouldn't be used. So it's not worth mentioning.

But since Hurricane in rain is the only real niche, I'm curious about Moltres' ranking. Thank you for your answers.


Regards,
Eckleburg

Moltres can use Roost, which means that its main niche comes from its SubRoost or SubToxic set - which Tornadus can't do.

 

[SketchUp]

It was ranked because Specs Hurricane, so Roost is not relevant. The only reason I think it's ranked is because it beats two big rain threats in Ferrothorn and Venusaur at the same time. But I think Fighting move Tornadus(-T) does this job just as well without being 4x rock weak. So I'm wondering too why it's ranked

 

[AM]

It's for Specs Moltres in general. Hitting checks and counters in rain is sort of a bonus. Some people use it on stall as a Char-Y switch in that isn't passive as hell. Let's keep the E rank stuff to a minimum and not get 5 replies of basically the same thing.

 

[DarkNostalgia]

Usage =/= viability. This is a huge thing that everyone actually needs to remember. Just because you have not seen that Pokemon much doesn't mean it's bad. Not meaning this as a scathing reply to you but just sort of a general reminder.

As Analytic said, Kabutops is a nice Swift Swim user on rain teams, and it's one of the two only viable physical Swift Swim users, the other being Mega Swampert. For circumstances where the Mega slot has been used up by something else such as Mega Scizor or Mega Latias, Kabutops is a good option as well. This doesn't mean Kabutops is inferior to Mega Swampert though. Kabutops has a nice typing, and it particular makes it an excellent check to Talonflame, a Pokemon capable of revenge killing some other common Rain Pokemon, such as Kingdra, Mega Swampert, Mega Scizor, and Tornadus-T. It also has a STAB Stone Edge to muscle past bulky Grass-types such as Mega Venusaur, Celebi, and Amoonguss, which is something Mega Swampert lacks. It also gets Rapid Spin for decent support, especially when your team has something along the lines of Mega Pinsir or Tornadus-T, Swords Dance to potentially sweep, Low Kick for coverage against Ferrothorn, and Aqua Jet to clean up weakened foes or faster Pokemon even in rain, such as Choice Scarf Terrakion and Rock Polish Mega Diancie. But yeah Kabutops has an extremely solid niche that justifies its placement in B+.

 

[procrastinat]

Hi, I'm new and a noob. While reading through the rankings, there are a couple of things that strike me as slightly odd. I'd appreciate it if some one can please clairfy.

1. Politoed: I understand that being the only OU allowed Drizzle user is very unique and valuable. However, it seems to me that other than Drizzle, Politoed is a pretty mediocre Pokemon. It struggles to pull off a successful offensive set, while the defensive set often causes a loss in momentum on an offensive rain team. I mean sure it can hope for a Scald hax or spread Toxic, but IMO it still gives free turns to too many things. Is it just Drizzle that carried it to A- or is there something about Politoed that I'm missing here?

2. Mega Alakazam: with its speed tier, offenses and movepool, this is far from a bad mon. But it doesn't hit as hard as Life Orb (and this is a mon that really needs to hit as hard as possible, since it can't take hits like, at all), nor does it have the utility of Focus Sash revenge killing even speed boosting threats or those with priority. Plus it takes up a Mega slot hence more opportunity cost. Ability wise, Trace can work wonders at times, but I would say Magic Guard is a more consistent ability and I definitely wouldn't give Trace the edge. The only things I see in Mega Alakazam that beats regular Alakazam is the godly speed tier (that it doesn't even get to utilize on the turn it Mega Evolves), but it comes with what I feel is a much higher opportunity cost. From my really inexperienced point of view, it feels like that these two should be in the same subrank, and I'm a bit surprised to see Mega Alakazam ranked higher.

Anyway, sorry if the questions seem dumb or if their answers are hidden in the 50+ previous pages...

On Politoed, you are correct in that it is a pretty mediocre Pokemon. It's not useless with moves like Scald, Toxic, Hypnosis, and Encore, but it should only see the field to set Rain and annoy the opponent, never staying for more than 2-3 turns. With all of that, the reason Politoed is A- is because Rain Offense is a very powerful team archetype right now. If you look in the viability ranking, you will see a bunch of Swift Swimmers clustered in the B/B+ tiers. The thought process of the ranking team was around the lines of "Since Rain is powerful style and the best Swift Swimmers are in B+, Politoed should be 1 subrank above them, since it's what makes them so good in the first place."

On Mega-Zam, the reason it is ranked so high is because Trace allows it to do things that no other Pokemon do, and it sort of ties into Politoed's high ranking. With Trace, Mega Alakazam is capable of revenge killing every single weather sweeper. From Excadrill to Kingdra, Alakazam outspeeds them by copying their ability and using it's high Sp. Atk Stat to kill them. The other applications of Trace are too many to name: From copying Prankster from Thundurus and taunting it first, to copying Regenerator from Tornadus-T to act as recovery.

1 more thing, Mega Alakazam does hit harder than it's Life Orb holding base form, due to having a high enough Speed stat to run modest. With Modest it hits 399 Speed, enough to outspeed everything up to base 130 Speed. (And +1 Jolly Mega Tyranitar.)

252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Kingdra: 211-249 (68.7 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Kingdra: 207-243 (67.4 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[DarkNostalgia]

On Politoed, you are correct in that it is a pretty mediocre Pokemon. It's not useless with moves like Scald, Toxic, Hypnosis, and Encore, but it should only see the field to set Rain and annoy the opponent, never staying for more than 2-3 turns. With all of that, the reason Politoed is A- is because Rain Offense is a very powerful team archetype right now. If you look in the viability ranking, you will see a bunch of Swift Swimmers clustered in the B/B+ tiers. The thought process of the ranking team was around the lines of "Since Rain is powerful style and the best Swift Swimmers are in B+, Politoed should be 1 subrank above them, since it's what makes them so good in the first place."

On Mega-Zam, the reason it is ranked so high is because Trace allows it to do things that no other Pokemon do, and it sort of ties into Politoed's high ranking. With Trace, Mega Alakazam is capable of revenge killing every single weather sweeper. From Excadrill to Kingdra, Alakazam outspeeds them by copying their ability and using it's high Sp. Atk Stat to kill them. The other applications of Trace are too many to name: From copying Prankster from Thundurus and taunting it first, to copying Regenerator from Tornadus-T to act as recovery.

1 more thing, Mega Alakazam does hit harder than it's Life Orb holding base form, due to having a high enough Speed stat to run modest. With Modest it hits 399 Speed, enough to outspeed everything up to base 130 Speed. (And +1 Jolly Mega Tyranitar.)

252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Kingdra: 211-249 (68.7 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Kingdra: 207-243 (67.4 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

No lol Mega Alakazam more or less should be running Timid in this metagame, what with Mega Lopunny, Mega Manectric running rampant. Timid also guarantees that Mega Alakazam outspeeds Mega Sceptile and Mega Beedrill and Speed ties with opposing Mega Alakazam and Mega Aerodactyl. The loss of power is negligible. Mega Alakazam is A because of its stellar matchup against offensive teams and to some extent weakened balanced ones as well, what with a sky-high Speed stat and good coverage and utility options. Psychic, Shadow Ball, and Focus Blast effectively net a neutral hit on everything in the metagame, leaving the last moveslot open for many utility and alternate coverage options, such as Encore, Substitute, Taunt, Hidden Power Fire, and Hidden Power Ice, which further improves Mega Alakazam's matchup against bulkier Pokemon such as Clefable and Chansey, in the case of Encore and Taunt.

Politoed basically carries a whole playstyle on its shoulders. Again, nice utility in Perish Song, Encore, and Toxic, and Scald shenanigans are always fun. Could potentially drop to B+ actually if you ask me lol because as some have said before, Politoed makes rain possible, but Kingdra / Kabutops / Mega Swampert are gonna be on it anyway. I really don't really see how Politoed can be used without these B+ Pokemon so I guess a drop could be justifiable.

 

[pika pal]

Politoed basically carries a whole playstyle on its shoulders. Again, nice utility in Perish Song, Encore, and Toxic, and Scald shenanigans are always fun. Could potentially drop to B+ actually if you ask me lol because as some have said before, Politoed makes rain possible, but Kingdra / Kabutops / Mega Swampert are gonna be on it anyway. I really don't really see how Politoed can be used without these B+ Pokemon so I guess a drop could be justifiable.

The thing to me is that Politoed essentially IS Rain in a sense. You will obviously see a Swift Swimmer or two on any rain team, but that could be almost any combo. If I use Kabutops, I HAVE to use Politoed, but the reverse is not true of using Kabutops if I use Politoed.

Politoed is the only mon that is outright mandatory to build a playstyle (even sand does have options between T-Tar or Hippowdon for setter): even if there are roles with a very small pool of candidates, Politoed is the only mon that can fill one of those roles, and it's probably the most important role for the archetype.

Politoed's placement to me pretty much reflects the viability of the rain playstyle in OU, since it is borderline impossible to build a viable Rain team without it. I could build a decent Rain team without any Swift Swimmer in particular (as in, there is no SS I pretty much NEED to pick, like Kabutops over Kingdra), any number of higher ranked mons that benefit from the rain, but if I don't have Politoed, I don't have an effective rain team.

 

[Lord Xen III]

On Politoed, you are correct in that it is a pretty mediocre Pokemon. It's not useless with moves like Scald, Toxic, Hypnosis, and Encore, but it should only see the field to set Rain and annoy the opponent, never staying for more than 2-3 turns. With all of that, the reason Politoed is A- is because Rain Offense is a very powerful team archetype right now. If you look in the viability ranking, you will see a bunch of Swift Swimmers clustered in the B/B+ tiers. The thought process of the ranking team was around the lines of "Since Rain is powerful style and the best Swift Swimmers are in B+, Politoed should be 1 subrank above them, since it's what makes them so good in the first place."

On Mega-Zam, the reason it is ranked so high is because Trace allows it to do things that no other Pokemon do, and it sort of ties into Politoed's high ranking. With Trace, Mega Alakazam is capable of revenge killing every single weather sweeper. From Excadrill to Kingdra, Alakazam outspeeds them by copying their ability and using it's high Sp. Atk Stat to kill them. The other applications of Trace are too many to name: From copying Prankster from Thundurus and taunting it first, to copying Regenerator from Tornadus-T to act as recovery.

1 more thing, Mega Alakazam does hit harder than it's Life Orb holding base form, due to having a high enough Speed stat to run modest. With Modest it hits 399 Speed, enough to outspeed everything up to base 130 Speed. (And +1 Jolly Mega Tyranitar.)

252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Kingdra: 211-249 (68.7 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Kingdra: 207-243 (67.4 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Hi, I'm new and a noob. While reading through the rankings, there are a couple of things that strike me as slightly odd. I'd appreciate it if some one can please clairfy.

1. Politoed: I understand that being the only OU allowed Drizzle user is very unique and valuable. However, it seems to me that other than Drizzle, Politoed is a pretty mediocre Pokemon. It struggles to pull off a successful offensive set, while the defensive set often causes a loss in momentum on an offensive rain team. I mean sure it can hope for a Scald hax or spread Toxic, but IMO it still gives free turns to too many things. Is it just Drizzle that carried it to A- or is there something about Politoed that I'm missing here?

2. Mega Alakazam: with its speed tier, offenses and movepool, this is far from a bad mon. But it doesn't hit as hard as Life Orb (and this is a mon that really needs to hit as hard as possible, since it can't take hits like, at all), nor does it have the utility of Focus Sash revenge killing even speed boosting threats or those with priority. Plus it takes up a Mega slot hence more opportunity cost. Ability wise, Trace can work wonders at times, but I would say Magic Guard is a more consistent ability and I definitely wouldn't give Trace the edge. The only things I see in Mega Alakazam that beats regular Alakazam is the godly speed tier (that it doesn't even get to utilize on the turn it Mega Evolves), but it comes with what I feel is a much higher opportunity cost. From my really inexperienced point of view, it feels like that these two should be in the same subrank, and I'm a bit surprised to see Mega Alakazam ranked higher.

Anyway, sorry if the questions seem dumb or if their answers are hidden in the 50+ previous pages...

As a few people already explained, Politoed single handedly raises the viability of all the swift swimmers because its the only available Drizzle setter for such an effective play style in the current meta. Its defensive set does kill momentum in certain situations, but also gives rain crucial opportunities to beat certain threats to rain, as its scald burns can wear down opposing grass types and water types. With encore it gives nice setup opportunities for SD kabutops, and at the same time deters belly drum azumarill from setting up which is another huge problem for rain teams, as it easily can get by ferrothorn. Don't forget it also has hypnosis.


Mega Alakazam is a sub rank higher than its base form mainly because of its niche and speed. Trace is a very cool but also very situational abiliy. But nonetheless I've found myself tracing abilities like regenerator which is very useful for maintaining Zam's longetivity since its bulk is pitiful in both forms, and Mega Zam in particular will get worn down by hazards quickly. However the main selling point of Mega alakazam is that it increases its prowess against offense which a blazing 150 speed, 120 speed simply isn't as good as it used to be with the ORAS speed creep, and renders mega alakazam to beat mega manectric, beedrill, and lopunny to name a few. And thanks to Trace, it can also help teams who normally wouldnt do as well against weather offense, which is pretty important as it easily makes swift swim and sand rush meaningless for the other side. Thus Mega alakzam gives the team a solid revenge killer to the super threatening sand rush excadrill while also stopping mega swampert, kingdra, kabutops and friends in their tracks. But yes overall keeping magic guard is more consistent as trace is more matchup based. But even so, Mega Alakazam can easily stay in base form with Magic Guard for a while and bluff sash zam, guaranteeing it doesnt get worn down by hazards too early.

Regariding the power difference between LO Zam and Mega Zam:

252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic vs. 8 HP / 4 SpD Abomasnow: 224-265 (69.3 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 8 HP / 4 SpD Abomasnow: 210-247 (65 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

There is a noticeable difference in power but in practice you will mainly see the power difference on a roll:

252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 314-372 (86.2 - 102.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 338-400 (92.8 - 109.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

So yea LO Zam does more reliably get some KOS but its not significantly far ahead.


LO Zam and Mega Zam of course have the same move pool, so they can both easily utilize things like Calm mind, taunt, encore, and knock off to increase their prowess against more defensive teams, which make both of them very solid mons in the metagame.

 

[Lord Xen III]

Ok , I'd like to get a little more serious with the push for Manaphy to S rank. I mean lets be honest, Manaphy is an amazing mon that just terrorizes balance and stall. ITs Tail Glow 3 attacks sets do a number on balance, while tail glow rain dance pretty much 6-0s the majority of stall teams. The Calm Mind rain dance set achieves a similar result to the tail glow set, although it is easier to phase due to not being able to boost as fast, but Manaphy appreciates the boosts especially to its Spdef nonetheless. Now to be fair, thats a bit generic because a lot of mons in this meta excel in breaking balance and some stall teams, such as Char y , Keldeo, Megagross , gengar , Mega Gardevoir, Kyurem B, shadow tag users, Mega Heracross , Lucario, Diggersby, and the list continues if you check the OU role compendium. But Manaphy puts itself in a tier above most of the other wall breakers, as it for one, does not take up a mega slot, and while it lacks immediate power, its power becomes monstrous in 1 turn due to tail glow since base 100 Spa is pretty decent to begin with. In addition to this, it is neutral to Steath rocks, and more importantly, doesnt care about status on some of its best sets. The rain dance set in particular flawlessly gets rid of stall. It uses the premier special wall on stall, eviolite Chansey as setup fodder thanks to being able to rest off seismic tosses and shaking off toxics and thunder waves at the end of each turn thanks to hydration. I'm pretty sure you all , particularly those who have went up against rain dance Manaphy using a stall team are familiar with these calcs.

+6 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 333-393 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+6 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 417-492 (59.2 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Now the ability to setup on Chansey is not unique to Manaphy, as contrary Serperior achieves a similar result if carrying taunt. However even if its carrying taunt, Serperior has no way of recovering the damage outside of maybe leftiez and giga drain, and not to mention has far more reliable answers than Manaphy on balance.

Well the two purported best checks to manaphy on balance and stall are mega venusaur and unaware clefable. However they are far from reliable.

252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable in Rain: 148-175 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and burn damage

252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable in Rain: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- 24.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

As you can see here it only takes Manaphy one scald burn and a roll, which does happen pretty common as you know with scald, for it to not counter Manaphy. This is also compounded by the fact that Clefable can do little back to Manaphy other than perhaps start Calm minding back. In addition to this, some Manaphy can opt to just run surf and the roll to kill Clefable exists after SR.


As for Mega Venusuar, ice beam is usually prefered for Manaphy's grass coverage, and thick fat stands a road block, but even so manaphy can still opt to run psychic:

252 SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 140-166 (38.4 - 45.6%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 350-412 (96.1 - 113.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

So as you can see, manaphy has the tools to cruise by its common answers, nearly has perfect coverage with ice beam scald/surf and energy ball, sits at a decent 100 speed, good bulk, and an anti status ability in hydration. This is a mon that excels over many of our other wall and stall breakers , and is often a first choice for a team needing a wall breaker outside of the mega slot, especially now that Lando I is gone.

Now I've looked at the earlier discussions for Manaphy to go to S rank, and a common argument is the generic "manaphy cant beat offense so shouldnt be S rank" . I mean i have a few problems with this logic. For one , Manaphy is a wall breaker, so its role is breaking defensive teams and the best comparison would be to other things that excel at wall breaking. And even more ironic is that Manaphy is abused by these very same offensive teams that its bad against. Manaphy fits well on those balance teams with Tornadus T and also I've seen it commonly alongside Megagross, another great wall breaker, which takes me to the next step.

Now , Megagross as we know Sits in S rank, and as i noted is a wallbreaking partner in crime. The biggest argument against manaphy going to S rank apparently is that its mediocre 100 benchmark has been too far creeped, making it easy for common HO mons to beat it since it lacks immediate power, and also will struggle to setup a tail glow against faster paced teams since it lacks a speed boosting move. Megagross is a mon with amazing bulk for an offensive mon similar to manaphy, but what gives it an edge over Manaphy is that it sits in a nice 110 speed tier and has, allowing it to speed tie the Latis, Mega Diancie, and Gengar, while also getting the jump on Keldeo and having immediate power to back it up. This makes Megagross undoubtedly better against offense. However, Manaphy excels arguably as well if not better than megagross against balance because its ability to boost quickly against these slower teams very fast in tandem with nearly flawless coverage allows Manaphy to be almost hard to stop and it doesn't care much about getting burned. Megagross is a little more easier to stop because it has to be selective in its 4 move in beating each one of its common hard checks since its dual stab is walled by the same things generally, requiring some more team support to handle the others, and is completely stopped by Mega Scizor. Whereas Manaphy is pretty much only 'Walled' by Mega Venusaur Chansey and Unaware Clef with its standard energy ball ice beam/ hidden power fire /scald coverage, and its rain dance sets pretty much single-handedly blows through most of the other common switch-ins to its 3 attack sets, such as chansey as stated above. Even so, most of the offensive checks to manaphy are the electric types, who manaphy can easily lure in with a wacan berry set, and Manaphy can still check things like talon flame, bulky chomp and staples found in pivot cores such as Scizor Lando- T and Tornadus. Because Manaphy excels in its role so flawlessly in pretty much 6-0 ing stall easier than the rest of the wall breakers , doing a number on balance with a lower opportunity cost than many of the other breakers , being both unpredictable and versatile, it definitely has a lot of positive things going for it. I think these traits should allow it to be placed above some of its A+ brethren, and be placed alongside Mega Metagross in S.

 

[Flygonial]

Ok , I'd like to get a little more serious with the push for Manaphy to S rank. I mean lets be honest, Manaphy is an amazing mon that just terrorizes balance and stall. ITs Tail Glow 3 attacks sets do a number on balance, while tail glow rain dance pretty much 6-0s the majority of stall teams. The Calm Mind rain dance set achieves a similar result to the tail glow set, although it is easier to phase due to not being able to boost as fast, but Manaphy appreciates the boosts especially to its Spdef nonetheless. Now to be fair, thats a bit generic because a lot of mons in this meta excel in breaking balance and some stall teams, such as Char y , Keldeo, Megagross , gengar , Mega Gardevoir, Kyurem B, shadow tag users, Mega Heracross , Lucario, Diggersby, and the list continues if you check the OU role compendium. But Manaphy puts itself in a tier above most of the other wall breakers, as it for one, does not take up a mega slot, and while it lacks immediate power, its power becomes monstrous in 1 turn due to tail glow since base 100 Spa is pretty decent to begin with. In addition to this, it is neutral to Steath rocks, and more importantly, doesnt care about status on some of its best sets. The rain dance set in particular flawlessly gets rid of stall. It uses the premier special wall on stall, eviolite Chansey as setup fodder thanks to being able to rest off seismic tosses and shaking off toxics and thunder waves at the end of each turn thanks to hydration. I'm pretty sure you all , particularly those who have went up against rain dance Manaphy using a stall team are familiar with these calcs.

+6 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 333-393 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+6 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 417-492 (59.2 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Now the ability to setup on Chansey is not unique to Manaphy, as contrary Serperior achieves a similar result if carrying taunt. However even if its carrying taunt, Serperior has no way of recovering the damage outside of maybe leftiez and giga drain, and not to mention has far more reliable answers than Manaphy on balance.

Well the two purported best checks to manaphy on balance and stall are mega venusaur and unaware clefable. However they are far from reliable.

252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable in Rain: 148-175 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and burn damage

252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable in Rain: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- 24.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

As you can see here it only takes Manaphy one scald burn and a roll, which does happen pretty common as you know with scald, for it to not counter Manaphy. This is also compounded by the fact that Clefable can do little back to Manaphy other than perhaps start Calm minding back. In addition to this, some Manaphy can opt to just run surf and the roll to kill Clefable exists after SR.


As for Mega Venusuar, ice beam is usually prefered for Manaphy's grass coverage, and thick fat stands a road block, but even so manaphy can still opt to run psychic:

252 SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 140-166 (38.4 - 45.6%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 350-412 (96.1 - 113.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

So as you can see, manaphy has the tools to cruise by its common answers, nearly has perfect coverage with ice beam scald/surf and energy ball, sits at a decent 100 speed, good bulk, and an anti status ability in hydration. This is a mon that excels over many of our other wall and stall breakers , and is often a first choice for a team needing a wall breaker outside of the mega slot, especially now that Lando I is gone.

Now I've looked at the earlier discussions for Manaphy to go to S rank, and a common argument is the generic "manaphy cant beat offense so shouldnt be S rank" . I mean i have a few problems with this logic. For one , Manaphy is a wall breaker, so its role is breaking defensive teams and the best comparison would be to other things that excel at wall breaking. And even more ironic is that Manaphy is abused by these very same offensive teams that its bad against. Manaphy fits well on those balance teams with Tornadus T and also I've seen it commonly alongside Megagross, another great wall breaker, which takes me to the next step.

Now , Megagross as we know Sits in S rank, and as i noted is a wallbreaking partner in crime. The biggest argument against manaphy going to S rank apparently is that its mediocre 100 benchmark has been too far creeped, making it easy for common HO mons to beat it since it lacks immediate power, and also will struggle to setup a tail glow against faster paced teams since it lacks a speed boosting move. Megagross is a mon with amazing bulk for an offensive mon similar to manaphy, but what gives it an edge over Manaphy is that it sits in a nice 110 speed tier and has, allowing it to speed tie the Latis, Mega Diancie, and Gengar, while also getting the jump on Keldeo and having immediate power to back it up. This makes Megagross undoubtedly better against offense. However, Manaphy excels arguably as well if not better than megagross against balance because its ability to boost quickly against these slower teams very fast in tandem with nearly flawless coverage allows Manaphy to be almost hard to stop and it doesn't care much about getting burned. Megagross is a little more easier to stop because it has to be selective in its 4 move in beating each one of its common hard checks since its dual stab is walled by the same things generally, requiring some more team support to handle the others, and is completely stopped by Mega Scizor. Whereas Manaphy is pretty much only 'Walled' by Mega Venusaur Chansey and Unaware Clef with its standard energy ball ice beam/ hidden power fire /scald coverage, and its rain dance sets pretty much single-handedly blows through most of the other common switch-ins to its 3 attack sets, such as chansey as stated above. Even so, most of the offensive checks to manaphy are the electric types, who manaphy can easily lure in with a wacan berry set, and Manaphy can still check things like talon flame, bulky chomp and staples found in pivot cores such as Scizor Lando- T and Tornadus. Because Manaphy excels in its role so flawlessly in pretty much 6-0 ing stall easier than the rest of the wall breakers , doing a number on balance with a lower opportunity cost than many of the other breakers , being both unpredictable and versatile, it definitely has a lot of positive things going for it. I think these traits should allow it to be placed above some of its A+ brethren, and be placed alongside Mega Metagross in S.

I myself was pretty neutral about Manaphy to S, leaning towards against, although this post pushed me over to the for side. I'd just like to point out that Manaphy is somewhat strapped for moveslots, although what Manaphy lacks can usually be covered by teammates. Additionally, this is more of just a nitpick, but the Clefable spread used in the calc is obsolete, the new one is 252 HP / 172 Def / 84 SpD.

 

[thesecondbest]

Also, with the new definition of the ranks, there is no reason to not have Manaphy there. Manaphy has very few negative traits, with pretty solid bulk, ability to burn physical attackers, it can even run calm mind, it annihilates stall. The only negative trait is each individual set has certain counters, but scald can break through anything. Manaphy really belongs in S, the Metagross comparison is a really solid one. They work differently, but have similar effectiveness and should be in the same rank.

 

[GuatemalaPartiratuculo]

I dont see manaphy in S rank because he is equally good as keldeo and azumarill, the one thing that has manaphy over the other 2 water types is tail glow and more coverage with moves like energy ball, shadow ball, ice beam, etc; other manaphy sets like CM rain dance rest set are niche and they are outclassed by his other set tail glow + 3 attacks or by cm keldeo or cm reunicles so if you want to bump him to S rank it needs to be because this set makes him S rank and it should be ovbiously better than keldeo or aumarill but it isnt so dont bump him to S rank; keldeo not only has better speed tier but he also sports inmediate power and with specs he doesnt need coverage to blow back his counters (shit like slowbro is 2KOed by specs hydro pump after SR) and icy wind also 2kos a lot of his checks like AV tornadus or latios (latias needs some prior damage) so thats why i find keldeo superior to manaphy because manaphy needs to set up to do damage while keldeo sometimes just needs to click specs hydro or scald to fish a burn and watch how keldeo leaves scars for later destroy you; yeah i admit i am overrating keldeo but i normally feel keldeo does more in the match than manaphy and dont forget his match up vs offense not only he is a faster inmediate thread with a SR resistance (this is a little underrated) but also he checks bisharp which is a pain in the ass to offense to face; yeah keldeo is not better than manaphy because this one has better coverage and destroys FWG cores like no other he can even run psyquic for venusaur but ur coverage its hurt if u dont run ice beam or energy ball still he choose his counters so thats a pro but keldeos does that 2 so i see the 2 at the same level and they should stay in the same rank because they are equally good.

Also azumarill is another sick offense, balance and stall breaker with belly knock off play rough aqua jet it really has no counters only venusaur so manaphy really has competition as best stall breaker but his pros and negatives are almost equal to azu so unless you give me a good argument to why manaphy is superior to this 2 wall breakers then i dont see manaphy as S rank material.

 

[Waluigi The Anime]

I dont see manaphy in S rank because he is equally good as keldeo and azumarill, the one thing that has manaphy over the other 2 water types is tail glow and more coverage with moves like energy ball, shadow ball, ice beam, etc; other manaphy sets like CM rain dance rest set are niche and they are outclassed by his other set tail glow + 3 attacks or by cm keldeo or cm reunicles so if you want to bump him to S rank it needs to be because this set makes him S rank and it should be ovbiously better than keldeo or aumarill but it isnt so dont bump him to S rank; keldeo not only has better speed tier but he also sports inmediate power and with specs he doesnt need coverage to blow back his counters (shit like slowbro is 2KOed by specs hydro pump after SR) and icy wind also 2kos a lot of his checks like AV tornadus or latios (latias needs some prior damage) so thats why i find keldeo superior to manaphy because manaphy needs to set up to do damage while keldeo sometimes just needs to click specs hydro or scald to fish a burn and watch how keldeo leaves scars for later destroy you; yeah i admit i am overrating keldeo but i normally feel keldeo does more in the match than manaphy and dont forget his match up vs offense not only he is a faster inmediate thread with a SR resistance (this is a little underrated) but also he checks bisharp which is a pain in the ass to offense to face; yeah keldeo is not better than manaphy because this one has better coverage and destroys FWG cores like no other he can even run psyquic for venusaur but ur coverage its hurt if u dont run ice beam or energy ball still he choose his counters so thats a pro but keldeos does that 2 so i see the 2 at the same level and they should stay in the same rank because they are equally good.

Also azumarill is another sick offense, balance and stall breaker with belly knock off play rough aqua jet it really has no counters only venusaur so manaphy really has competition as best stall breaker but his pros and negatives are almost equal to azu so unless you give me a good argument to why manaphy is superior to this 2 wall breakers then i dont see manaphy as S rank material.

You never stated in your post why Keldeo was better besides saying it had immediate power and doesn't need to set up (which kind of contradicts your statement saying CM Keldeo is better than CM Manaphy. Manaphy is able to break stall and balance with little support while the same cant be said for Keldeo.


I also have another replay displaying Choice Specs Tangrowth's usefulness.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-226278627
(Battle against GeeMick using my alt)

Speaking of Tangrowth, I really want to hear some opinions about it moving to B+ as nobody has actually disagreed nor agreed with all the talk about Manaphy and Zard X going to S and Mega Metagross (unlikely) dropping.

 

[Lord Xen III]

I dont see manaphy in S rank because he is equally good as keldeo and azumarill, the one thing that has manaphy over the other 2 water types is tail glow and more coverage with moves like energy ball, shadow ball, ice beam, etc; other manaphy sets like CM rain dance rest set are niche and they are outclassed by his other set tail glow + 3 attacks or by cm keldeo or cm reunicles so if you want to bump him to S rank it needs to be because this set makes him S rank and it should be ovbiously better than keldeo or aumarill but it isnt so dont bump him to S rank; keldeo not only has better speed tier but he also sports inmediate power and with specs he doesnt need coverage to blow back his counters (shit like slowbro is 2KOed by specs hydro pump after SR) and icy wind also 2kos a lot of his checks like AV tornadus or latios (latias needs some prior damage) so thats why i find keldeo superior to manaphy because manaphy needs to set up to do damage while keldeo sometimes just needs to click specs hydro or scald to fish a burn and watch how keldeo leaves scars for later destroy you; yeah i admit i am overrating keldeo but i normally feel keldeo does more in the match than manaphy and dont forget his match up vs offense not only he is a faster inmediate thread with a SR resistance (this is a little underrated) but also he checks bisharp which is a pain in the ass to offense to face; yeah keldeo is not better than manaphy because this one has better coverage and destroys FWG cores like no other he can even run psyquic for venusaur but ur coverage its hurt if u dont run ice beam or energy ball still he choose his counters so thats a pro but keldeos does that 2 so i see the 2 at the same level and they should stay in the same rank because they are equally good.

Also azumarill is another sick offense, balance and stall breaker with belly knock off play rough aqua jet it really has no counters only venusaur so manaphy really has competition as best stall breaker but his pros and negatives are almost equal to azu so unless you give me a good argument to why manaphy is superior to this 2 wall breakers then i dont see manaphy as S rank material.

I think your comparison to keldeo was pretty good. But Keldeo has far more reliable checks and counters, and even have some that can reliably check it without too much recourse from scald burns. Those include celebi and starmie because of natural cure. They only really fear hidden power bug. But then keldeo has heal bell mega altaria, the lati twins, mega venu , amoongus, slowbro, slowking, Av tornadus, tentacruel, lum berry dragnonite, azumarill, and the list goes on. Yes while keldeo can threaten each of these with certain coverage moves, it still has a wider variety of relatively consistent options to its common sets since most keldeo sets are limited to one coverage move, which is usually a weak hidden power or icy wind. And even with this kept in mind, keldeo Was still an S rank mon, only recently dropped. So even by that merit manaphy , since your comparing it by saying they should be in the same rank, i can argue manaphy deserves a shot in S. manaphy gets by the majority of its roadblocks in just one set, which is the tail glow rain dance set , something keldeo wishes it could do. I also find manaphy less predictable than keldeo for this reason who you know more or less is running scald hydro secret sword then one coverage move ( and calm mind sets usually dont run a coverage move and usually run sub), where as manaphy is only guaranteed to have tail glow/ calm mind + water stab, the other moveslots are fair game. specs keldeo has more immediate power and speed but is locked into a move, so u must switch out at certain times and lose momentum. Then if comparing calm mind keldeo to tail glow manaphy, manaphy boosts faster and becomes a better boosted threat due to incredible coverage plus having the benefit of rain boosted attacks and doesnt care about status.

Azumarill is another interesting comparison as it is low on reliable counters, particularly in its belly drum sets. However despite aqua jet azumarill has an even lower speed tier, and still has a reliable answer in mega venusaur and tentacruel and it doesn't have a way of getting past it, and its crippled by a burn and other status far easier than manaphy is, so it cannot sweep as effectively sometimes. So i do think manaphy is a step above azumarill and keldeo.

I myself was pretty neutral about Manaphy to S, leaning towards against, although this post pushed me over to the for side. I'd just like to point out that Manaphy is somewhat strapped for moveslots, although what Manaphy lacks can usually be covered by teammates. Additionally, this is more of just a nitpick, but the Clefable spread used in the calc is obsolete, the new one is 252 HP / 172 Def / 84 SpD.

Being strapped for moveslots just means it adapts even easier for team needs because it has many coverage options available to it. That adds to versatiliy and unpredictability. And also can you tell me what that spread achieves that the older one didnt? because that spread loses even harder to manaphy:

252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable in Rain: 168-198 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- 39.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

[bludz]

I'm not gonna say Manaphy is a slam dunk for S rank, but I'm definitely considering it now more than I was. I'll just gloss over the CM Rest set (which is pretty underrated) because even though it's good it isn't the thing that would push Manaphy to S. I think most of us can agree that as effective as RD + TG is, it would be Tail Glow + 3 attacks which is Manaphy's best set in the current metagame.

One of the major arguments I see for Manaphy not rising is its speed tier. Well it's true that it's below what we want from an offensive pokemon, but it's not all that bad. On top of that it has excellent natural bulk and a good defensive typing with only 2 weaknesses meaning it can often take 2 to 3 hits, enabling it to set up. Granted it can only take 2 from offensive monsters like Mega Lopunny, but it still finds a surprising number of opportunities to set up a Tail Glow against many offensive builds and I think this is downplayed. You're often put in a similar conundrum with Azumarill where you're either afraid of absorbing a hit or switching out and letting Manaphy get a free setup. It's not a perfect comparison because Azumarill hits a lot harder right off the bat but the idea is the same; Manaphy can put opponents in a very difficult situation (even against offense in the right situation), moreso than many other wallbreakers which have consistent answers.

I don't think I need to go into detail on how monstrous its coverage options are. I mean realistically it can't really be walled by anything if it has the correct move for it bar Unaware Clefable really (which can still lose to the RD set if it burns). Of course every set has its own counters etc but Manaphy still presents a similar problem to the one Landorus did (though not to the same extent) in its coverage being somewhat unpredictable. It actually has a fair number of options for held item too. While most people tend to run Leftovers, other options like Wacan Berry, Sitrus Berry, Salac Berry and even things like Mystic Water/Life Orb are plenty viable and actually pretty solid a lot of the time, while also providing a nice surprise factor. Sitrus Berry in particular I think is slept on and eases Manaphy's matchup against offense greatly, turning 2HKOs from monsters like Mega Diancie into 3HKOs which allows for a guaranteed setup and attack barring a crit. I don't think I need to explain that Salac Berry is actually a nightmare if it ends up working out.

It's also important to note that Keldeo has now dropped to A+ rank. Now this is not to say that S rank requires a resident water type, but I really did not see room for both of them in S. With Keldeo dropping, there's definitely room for a different water type to claim the title of best of its type. While Keldeo is still a massive threat, determining its set is much simpler than with Manaphy as all you need is Stealth Rocks up and a simple damage calculation to deduce what set its running. Manaphy may not reveal its coverage moves so easily and this makes it more difficult to play around. Despite being slower, it's also bulkier and is not as weak to priority moves *cough Talonflame cough*

Anyway in short I do agree that it's time to re-evaluate Manaphy to S rank. I was against it before but I'm more on the fence now, I actually feel that this is similar to Zard X where the rise might not happen now but it seems destined to happen at some point.