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Ok SRN explained his noms on scizor mega gross and char x very well , but hid quite a bit of information in his opinion in manaphy. First of all I found it hard to believe that yawn empoleon counters manaphy. I mean it might counter or annoy the 3 attacks manaphy well with yawn but loses horrendously to rain dance manaphy. So that's not a reliable answer. And saying manaphy rain dance set only gets by clef able is ludicrous because it 6-0s an entire playstyle, and even then getting by the best check to its 3 attacks set is pretty darn significant. Also manaphy doesn't have immediate power which is flaw , but does that matter when u have decent bulk and can get to plus 6 faster then any other boosting mon in the current meta game bar belly drum azu with perfect coverage ?
Secondly no one is saying that manaphy being medicore against offense is false. However it becomes a problem when it's path to S rank is denied simply because it can't , which makes no sense when it's the best balance and stall breaker in the tier . The argument that it shouldn't be S rank because it's not as good as mega gross or keldeo at offense is completely ignorant of the fact that's it better than both of those in breaking TWO other playstyles, or is beating HO all that's important nowadays ? I could understand if manaphy was just as good as keldeo and mega gross in breaking defensive teams, then sure it makes perfect sense to keep it in A+.
And landorus was S rank for its all out attacker and the fact it could threaten offense with rp, but it wasn't THAT amazing against it and had difficulty setting up. And hence that's why Lando was banned and why manaphy is still here , but easily can replace Lando as the best balance breaker. And like I said manaphy isn't complete deadweight against offense , Bludz explained how it can do well there
Something I'd like to ascertain is just how much of an influence Manaphy is on Stall to the point where it's so uncommon. Because if it's the single main pokemon keeping Stall at bay like it does, you can't argue that it's not meta-defining because it's keeping Stall more or less out of the picture. If it's really that dominant over a whole playstyle to the point where you rarely see it then it should probably be S, and based on this alone I personally can't see how you could argue otherwise. However, you've also got to consider other influences on Stall. There's a lot in A+ (and below) that also happily craps on Stall and the real question, as I see it, is just how much of a role each of these mon play in invalidating Stall. If Manaphy is obviously better than all of them by a stretch and is the thing invalidating Stall, then it should be S. If when put into perspective it's not that much better than some of the others, or if the other mon are also really significant, it's Stall matchup alone is not enough for S.
I know Manaphy's being debated for other reasons as well as beating Stall as well as it does, but for me this is an interesting point to think about since I think it could potentially make Manaphy's position at S single-handedly. But it's just my opinion on things and it doesn't mean much really, different people will have different opinions on this.
Carry on, I guess.
I guess no? I mean even when Manaphy went under the radar before stall was never really that viable at any point post-Aegi ban. I mean a quick search tells you Manaphy was more or less A- pretty consistently until just recently. Stall still had/has a boatload of issues to contend with outside of Manaphy between Kyurem-B, Thundurus, Gard, Zards, Pinsir, etc. It's not like the rise of Manaphy correlated to a huge decline in stall or anything. I also don't think a removal of Manaphy would lead to great resurgence in stall either outside of the usual post-suspect hype. Is Manaphy the best among current breakers? Probably, although I personally think the lack of immediate power does limit it to a degree compared to its competition and that point should not be undersold. The "Manaphy invalidates two whole playstyles by itself omg S rank for sure" comments seem to be just a little bit too much theorymon imo.
Ok SRN explained his noms on scizor mega gross and char x very well , but hid quite a bit of information in his opinion in manaphy. First of all I found it hard to believe that yawn empoleon counters manaphy. I mean it might counter or annoy the 3 attacks manaphy well with yawn but loses horrendously to rain dance manaphy. So that's not a reliable answer. And saying manaphy rain dance set only gets by clef able is ludicrous because it 6-0s an entire playstyle, and even then getting by the best check to its 3 attacks set is pretty darn significant. Also manaphy doesn't have immediate power which is flaw , but does that matter when u have decent bulk and can get to plus 6 faster then any other boosting mon in the current meta game bar belly drum azu with perfect coverage ?
Well you're right, i probably should've elaborated that our saviour yawn empol only counters every TG set (as if that wasn't impressive enough between the 6 different moves it can run...), and doesn't counter the rd cm set.
But you're telling me rd cm 6-0s an entire playstyle? That's wishful thinking mate, sorry.
Cm reuni w/psyshock, Cm slowbro w/psyshock, MG/unaware cm clefable with stored power, and Cm mlatias with psyshock/stored power are all awesome win conditions for stall teams and all beat rd cm mana 1v1. And it doesn't even have to be restricted to CM, clear smog amoonguss and acid spray tenta are pretty handy ways for stall to beat rd cm mana as well. It doesn't even come close to 6-0'ing an entire playstyle.
And yes immediate power does matter even if you have decent bulk because you don't get any power without sacrificing your bulk.
I earlier mentioned that hit-and-run wallbreakers are generally the best, pokemon that might be revenge killed by balance but every time they come in usually just take a mon, with SD mchomp being the exception as literally nothing stops it so it doesn't even need to run as long as its faster.
But manaphy? You really only get one shot to set up and do anything unless you're cm rd rest. If you wanna take a hit to check exca or something, you're most likely out of the game, you're not doing jack shit. On the other hand, it doesn't matter whether your char-y is at 100% or at 1%, as long as it can get that fire blast off its done its job.
As far as its +3 shenanigans go, the three stage raise sounds all kinds of amazing until you realize that manaphy has 100 base special attack, rarely carries an item to boost that power, and has no move with a base power higher than 90. It's pretty much weaker than SD wallbreakers (think guts normal hera, mega hera, terrakion, char-x, mega garchomp, pinsir, toxic orb loom, lando-t, crawdaunt, diggersby, gallade,) after a boost....
It comes NOWHERE close to the level of power these beasts pump out, and the speed of its boosting has nothing to do with its effectiveness.
People really seem to overhype the +3, maybe this will make things clearer.
+3 252+ SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 298-352 (73.7 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 573-675 (141.8 - 167%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 439-517 (108.6 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 627-738 (155.1 - 182.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 511-603 (126.4 - 149.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Breloom Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 430-507 (106.4 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 555-655 (137.3 - 162.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 495-583 (122.5 - 144.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Mega Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 468-552 (115.8 - 136.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Earth Plate Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 466-549 (115.3 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 588-691 (145.5 - 171%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 559-659 (138.3 - 163.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
When you step back and look at the boosting wallbreakers of the tier, manaphy is actually the weakest of them all.
I hope this is a wake up call to try out some cool new sets, like SD mchomp, SD guts hera, Adamant SD terrak, etc because every wallbreaker i just listed, some megas and some not, are all stronger than manaphy. MODEST manaphy might i add, most people i see run timid. You might wanna say that mana's bulk saves it or something, but god, people use mana to break walls, not be bulky! yeah its nice but if it's literally doing half the damage as gods like char-x are then why are you even using it as your wallbreaker?
I mean look at char-x literally being almost twice as strong holy shit. I had to change to shaymin for some of those to show these wallbreakers' strongest moves, but same base stats and all.
And people say that manaphy invalidates both balance and stall. Fucking please.
Secondly no one is saying that manaphy being medicore against offense is false. However it becomes a problem when it's path to S rank is denied simply because it can't , which makes no sense when it's the best balance and stall breaker in the tier . The argument that it shouldn't be S rank because it's not as good as mega gross or keldeo at offense is completely ignorant of the fact that's it better than both of those in breaking TWO other playstyles, or is beating HO all that's important nowadays ? I could understand if manaphy was just as good as keldeo and mega gross in breaking defensive teams, then sure it makes perfect sense to keep it in A+.
As i hope i clarified from above, its FAR from the best balance and stallbreaker in the tier. It's lack of power before and after a boost, combined with its total shit performance vs offense really just makes it clear that its doing nothing but riding a hype wave.
And landorus was S rank for its all out attacker and the fact it could threaten offense with rp, but it wasn't THAT amazing against it and had difficulty setting up. And hence that's why Lando was banned and why manaphy is still here , but easily can replace Lando as a balance breaker. And like I said manaphy isn't complete deadweight against offense , Bludz explained how it can do well there
Oh i'll add in one more calc to make things picture perfect here too:
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 341-403 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Just one final kick in the face huh. landorus is stronger at +1 than mana is at +3. That's pretty pathetic.
By the way, there's one major difference between landorus and manaphy: landorus could run 4 attacks, and have immediate power and all the coverage it wants to hit pretty much everything, and was thus independent. But manaphy needs a turn to boost and further support to have its limited movepool do shit. Furthermore, landorus could actually help offense and set rocks for offense (one of the two that could do it vs msab) instead of depend on offense to weaken shit to actually even start to do its job.
EDIT: AM below
I mean yes scald is retarded and all, but for it to have any effect 3 things need to happen:
1) You need to repeatedly bring it in and STILL keep it healthy enough to set up TG
2) Get a scald burn
3) Do step 1) after step 2)
If you're even gonna BOTHER to bring manaphy in SO many times that scald burns actually make a difference, you're much better off using some other nuke wallbreaker like mgarde, mhera, char-y, etc.
Of course a pokemon is going to break its checks when you bring it in safely 241480214 times. That's nothing only manaphy can do.
The fact that +3 is going to change how your opponent plays against u on that turn? How doesn't that apply to every other wallbreaker that can boost and be roughly 1.5x stronger?
I wasn't trying strictly to compare mana to char-x or any of those other wallbreakers, that little side comment about +2 char-x being twice as strong as +3 modest mana wasn't really the core of my argument. What I'm trying to show is that manaphy is just weak overall, whether i compare it to every other wallbreaker that can boost or not.
I will give you that it has a neutrality to every priority that is nice, but its just a little pro. Fact is, manaphy is a very weak wallbreaker, and its bulk or typing that rarely gets much more than 80 evs in hp really doesn't make a raise suddenly ok.
If Manaphy were to ever go to S it's going to be off of a Tail Glow variant fyi. Sure you take everything combined when ranking it but Calm Mind isn't exactly the brink of destruction that Manaphy conveys in the meta to begin with. Also it invalidates or makes certain cores a liability. An entire playstyle is an overstatement of its capabilities.
When you step back and look at the boosting wallbreakers of the tier, manaphy is actually the weakest of them all.
I hope this is a wake up call to try out some cool new sets, like SD mchomp, SD guts hera, Adamant SD terrak, etc because every wallbreaker i just listed, some megas and some not, are all stronger than manaphy. MODEST manaphy might i add, most people i see run timid. You might wanna say that mana's bulk saves it or something, but god, people use mana to break walls, not be bulky! yeah its nice but if it's literally doing half the damage as gods like char-x are then why are you even using it as your wallbreaker?
Well you would use it cause unlike all those you mentioned they don't have the dumbest move on the planet called Scald that turns traditional defensive checks into not so much checks in the long term of games, which can be fired off with the biggest repercussion in that you don't net a burn. This is after the fact that the potential to be at +3 in a single turn is pretty likely going to change how your opponent plays against you on that turn, which is huge to have an advantage like that. Char-X is a mega, an insanely strong one to, with a set up move that boosts one of its best traits and compensates an already solid one in the face of offense. When you compare to that level yes Manaphy base stat and ability wise it's going to look weak. Manaphy is traditionally bulkier than most wall-breakers and bulk is in tandem with typing as well so it's pretty useful to have a neutrality to the common forms of priority used in the meta.
I more than likely won't be making the verdict on Manaphy and let other ranking guys decide since I'm pretty neutral but I think people thinking it should be S in its ability to "invalidate" stuff is overselling it, while people thinking it should stay A+ are sort of exaggerating flaws or making these really weird comparisons to stuff like Zard-X who in practice function differently outside of the role of wall-breaker when considering its team synergy. I hope that makes sense.
Well you're right, i probably should've elaborated that our saviour yawn empol only counters every TG set (as if that wasn't impressive enough between the 6 different moves it can run...), and doesn't counter the rd cm set.
But you're telling me rd cm 6-0s an entire playstyle? That's wishful thinking mate, sorry.
Cm reuni w/psyshock, Cm slowbro w/psyshock, MG/unaware cm clefable with stored power, and Cm mlatias with psyshock/stored power are all awesome win conditions for stall teams and all beat rd cm mana 1v1. And it doesn't even have to be restricted to CM, clear smog amoonguss and acid spray tenta are pretty handy ways for stall to beat rd cm mana as well. It doesn't even come close to 6-0'ing an entire playstyle.
And yes immediate power does matter even if you have decent bulk because you don't get any power without sacrificing your bulk.
I earlier mentioned that hit-and-run wallbreakers are generally the best, pokemon that might be revenge killed by balance but every time they come in usually just take a mon, with SD mchomp being the exception as literally nothing stops it so it doesn't even need to run as long as its faster.
But manaphy? You really only get one shot to set up and do anything unless you're cm rd rest. If you wanna take a hit to check exca or something, you're most likely out of the game, you're not doing jack shit. On the other hand, it doesn't matter whether your char-y is at 100% or at 1%, as long as it can get that fire blast off its done its job.
As far as its +3 shenanigans go, the three stage raise sounds all kinds of amazing until you realize that manaphy has 100 base special attack, rarely carries an item to boost that power, and has no move with a base power higher than 90. It's pretty much weaker than SD wallbreakers (think guts normal hera, mega hera, terrakion, char-x, mega garchomp, pinsir, toxic orb loom, lando-t, crawdaunt, diggersby, gallade,) after a boost....
It comes NOWHERE close to the level of power these beasts pump out, and the speed of its boosting has nothing to do with its effectiveness.
People really seem to overhype the +3, maybe this will make things clearer.
+3 252+ SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 298-352 (73.7 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 573-675 (141.8 - 167%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 439-517 (108.6 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 627-738 (155.1 - 182.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 511-603 (126.4 - 149.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Breloom Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 430-507 (106.4 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 555-655 (137.3 - 162.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 495-583 (122.5 - 144.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Mega Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 468-552 (115.8 - 136.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Earth Plate Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 466-549 (115.3 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 588-691 (145.5 - 171%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 559-659 (138.3 - 163.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
When you step back and look at the boosting wallbreakers of the tier, manaphy is actually the weakest of them all.
I hope this is a wake up call to try out some cool new sets, like SD mchomp, SD guts hera, Adamant SD terrak, etc because every wallbreaker i just listed, some megas and some not, are all stronger than manaphy. MODEST manaphy might i add, most people i see run timid. You might wanna say that mana's bulk saves it or something, but god, people use mana to break walls, not be bulky! yeah its nice but if it's literally doing half the damage as gods like char-x are then why are you even using it as your wallbreaker?
I mean look at char-x literally being almost twice as strong holy shit. I had to change to shaymin for some of those to show these wallbreakers' strongest moves, but same base stats and all.
And people say that manaphy invalidates both balance and stall. Fucking please.
As i hope i clarified from above, its FAR from the best balance and stallbreaker in the tier. It's lack of power before and after a boost, combined with its total shit performance vs offense really just makes it clear that its doing nothing but riding a hype wave.
Oh i'll add in one more calc to make things picture perfect here too:
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 341-403 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Just one final kick in the face huh. landorus is stronger at +1 than mana is at +3. That's pretty pathetic.
By the way, there's one major difference between landorus and manaphy: landorus could run 4 attacks, and have immediate power and all the coverage it wants to hit pretty much everything, and was thus independent. But manaphy needs a turn to boost and further support to have its limited movepool do shit. Furthermore, landorus could actually help offense and set rocks for offense (one of the two that could do it vs msab) instead of depend on offense to weaken shit to actually even start to do its job.
EDIT: AM below
I mean yes scald is retarded and all, but for it to have any effect 3 things need to happen:
1) You need to repeatedly bring it in and STILL keep it healthy enough to set up TG
2) Get a scald burn
3) Do step 1) after step 2)
If you're even gonna BOTHER to bring manaphy in SO many times that scald burns actually make a difference, you're much better off using some other nuke wallbreaker like mgarde, mhera, char-y, etc.
Of course a pokemon is going to break its checks when you bring it in safely 241480214 times. That's nothing only manaphy can do.
The fact that +3 is going to change how your opponent plays against u on that turn? How doesn't that apply to every other wallbreaker that can boost and roughly 1.5x stronger?
I wasn't trying strictly to compare mana to char-x or any of those other wallbreakers, that little side comment about +2 char-x being twice as strong as +3 modest mana wasn't really the core of my argument. What I'm trying to show is that manaphy is just weak overall, whether i compare it to every other wallbreaker that can boost or not.
I will give you that it has a neutrality to every priority that is nice, but its just a little pro. Fact is, manaphy is a very weak wallbreaker, and its bulk or typing that rarely gets much more than 80 evs in hp really doesn't make a raise suddenly ok.
Ok to clear up the first misconception , I believe CM rain dance is manaphys 'worst set". I was referring to the tail glow rain dance set (its second best set) as 6-0ing stall and never the calm mind set, where as tail glow 3 attacks is the best. That " it 6-0s" stall is a hyperbole, but the emphasis is made because manaphy breaks MOST stall easier than almost anything else with its tail glow rain dance set. On top of that it is among the best balance breakers, and the reason it is being proposed for S rank is because it excels over others who take on a similar role even in the current A+ ranking. Its move pool isn't limited, it has incredible coverage options. And yea those things you mentioned are good checks, but that only goes so far and manaphy can still break them with its most common sets with ice beam energy ball and scald, unlike CM keldeo who usually doesn't fit in as many powerful coverage options against his wider array of reliable checks and doesnt have option of getting to +6 in SPA in two turns. And if we are doing the argument of specs, it should be obvious keldeo cant switch to a different move unless it switches then comes back. Additionally, ammoongus isn't a reliable answer to rain dance tail glow because psychic , and any coverage move for that matter is slashed with rest.
As AM addressed well, those calcs just narrow mindedly show that in theory Manaphy relies on a base 80 move and 100 Spa to do its wall breaking and usually only runs leftiez, So the char x comparison isn't the best comparison, when it gets a base 120 power stab with tough claws. The same applies to some of those other megas like heriacross who has base 185 attack. So yea manaphy loses out on raw and immediate power, but unlike those megas it can hold an item and can be status free without need for support on its rain dance sets along with reliable recovery with rest thanks to hydration, while spamming Scald everywhere with that 30 percent =100 percent burns and being neutral to rocks and resisting or being neutral to most priority. Still, scald off of 100 Spa isn't that bad at +3 and certainly at +6, especially since most of the things that can survive it such as mew typically cant do anything back. So those calcs are misleading and are still hiding information, as they suggest manaphy doesn't have some glaring advantages over those other wall breakers that allow it to make up for the difference in raw power. The main exception I do see is zard x because it boosts its power as well as speed and naturally has near perfect coverage with its stabs, making it argubaly more frightening than manaphy in many cases, especially against offense ( which u guys of course will give a thumbs up on), but i think its funny because Zard x is another S rank candidate people in this thread have been torn in half over, and it wouldn't surprise me to see both it and manaphy get raised. Further, manaphy is already ranked higher than the majority of those other breakers you listed for good reasons, regardless if it goes to S or not. And Manaphy isn't being raised up because of its bulk, the bulk is just a bonus and is good, not the best, but good by reasonable standards.
Plus with the comparison to Lando thing, realize that Lando was banned with close to a 75 percent majority iirc. Being S rank doesn't make you ban worthy necessarily (looking at clefable), but all arguably broken mons are always gonna be S rank until they are banned. The comparison to lando is to show why manaphy can fit S rank, not necessarily that its as good as lando because i personally agree its not, cause then it probably would have already been banned. lando is better against offense and adds extra utility like rocks which is an advantage it had over manaphy when it was allowed. But manaphy , now in lando i's **absence** is a go to wall breaker, and excels in beating stall and balance , even better than other A+ mons, all while not taking up a mega slot. Like you guys can compare it to metagross and say megagross is better against offense, and I will say manaphy is better and more self sufficient against most stall although megagross is obviously really good as well. So i do think manaphy and megagross can share space in S rank.
EDIT: AM below
I mean yes scald is retarded and all, but for it to have any effect 3 things need to happen:
1) You need to repeatedly bring it in and STILL keep it healthy enough to set up TG
2) Get a scald burn
3) Do step 1) after step 2)
If you're even gonna BOTHER to bring manaphy in SO many times that scald burns actually make a difference, you're much better off using some other nuke wallbreaker like mgarde, mhera, char-y, etc.
Of course a pokemon is going to break its checks when you bring it in safely 241480214 times. That's nothing only manaphy can do.
The fact that +3 is going to change how your opponent plays against u on that turn? How doesn't that apply to every other wallbreaker that can boost and be roughly 1.5x stronger?
I wasn't trying strictly to compare mana to char-x or any of those other wallbreakers, that little side comment about +2 char-x being twice as strong as +3 modest mana wasn't really the core of my argument. What I'm trying to show is that manaphy is just weak overall, whether i compare it to every other wallbreaker that can boost or not.
I will give you that it has a neutrality to every priority that is nice, but its just a little pro. Fact is, manaphy is a very weak wallbreaker, and its bulk or typing that rarely gets much more than 80 evs in hp really doesn't make a raise suddenly ok.
"So many times" is not that many when you have a move with a 30% chance and unless you're unlucky by the third time you've already gotten your burn, you can see this in a ton of matches with just Scald being used it's not that hard to actually get a burn nor is exactly difficult to establish points 1 and 2 in the first place. Point 1 is moot by the fact that outside of offense most teams are going to switch into their emergency button. Players know this, they don't just set up Tail Glow right away unless there's a clear opportunity in that something is about to die when they do, or they're just facing a shitty stall team there's always that to, albeit one of its exaggerated points for going up. This is the point at which most users in control of Manaphy will click Scald, sure people have seen this a 1000 times where many of these included burns. So unless you have a sure fire water switch in that is fat such as SpDef Celebi, while at the same time not being threatened tremendously by Tail Glow like M-Venusaur and Amoonguss most times is going to give the Mana player much more of an advantage than the opposing player has. So in about 3 turns or less you already managed Step 2 making Step 3 easier in the long run. These other nukes are specifically megas, and cherry picked to be some of the hardest hitting ones who have their own fair share of problems either through legitimate problems they have in functioning at a consistent level such as Char-Ys rock weakness, M-Heras average speed tier + prediction reliant on various switch ins, M-Gards susceptibly to M-Scizor and weak defensive side (takes like 75-80% from an offensive Jolly EQ by Garchomp as an example). These share of problems is Manaphy is established as a wallbreaker because of the ease at which Tail Glow and setting up can happen against a lot of team. If it was considered "weak" under some arbitrary definition of something that hits hard it wouldn't sit at where it's at in the rankings and it also wouldn't be the bane of some peoples existence right now. Weak is somewhat of a weird term to use when in one turn the term "weak" can and does go out the window in most games Manaphy will be used in. I don't think this will ever be a strong point in advocating against using Manaphy ever on any team more so in that it's prone to offense, spikes prone, mono typing leaves open to a lot of strong neutral hits from stuff like Latios, coverage dependent, a Pokemon who's strongest aspect is the one coming into the match to gain momentum, not the one being used to switch into and be a threat at the moment like M-Gross and M-Alt, things like that are flaws I see in Manaphy with varying levels of degree, albeit most of these are minimal concerns at times.
Like if people want to use the Landorus comparison, which is faulty as well in my eyes, you got to realize that Landorus' offensive potential far exceeded that of Manaphy since it didn't necessitate set up but still could. If we're talking about a pivoting tool Manaphy isn't really going to be doing that most games other than switching into a resist most times. That's...really about where those comparisons and flaws can go. After that like the pool of wall-breakers it becomes pretty cherry picked in what's being its defined role when it changes on both team and situation and these poor matchups become even smaller once a Tail Glow comes into play.
You only run HO and are only interested in beating HO it seems, so yea manaphy won't stand out. But what about the fact that manaphy is better than azumarill keldeo and even megagross at breaking balanced and stall? So essentially what you are saying is that a wallbreaker has to be good at breaking HO (which is contradictory itself, since wallbreakers dont break HO, if you want to do that should just run mega manetric and lopunny, who by the way are frequently paired with manaphy) in order to be S rank? Megagross is better at beating HO sure which is why its sitting in S rank, but manaphy also breaks 2 other play styles with less standing in its way. Thats enough to put megagross and manaphy in the same category. And this is just assuming manaphy is deadweight against HO, which its not because it beats bulky chomp, beats certain pivots such as lando t, and has good bulk and typing to take a hit or two, and as bludz mentioned can lure its HO checks with Wacan berry and can run things like salac berry, even though thats usually not preferred. But the point is Manaphy is versatile enough and is the BEST at its role , that should be enough to put it into S rank, and it shouldn't be ranked with things that its superior to when roles can be compared.
Manaphy is not better than
azumaril rofl azumaril
between play rough, aqua jet
and knock off with belly drum
you break any kind of stall or
defensive core even ferro
and amoongus cant wall an
azumarills knock off at +6 (they
are destroyed in one hit) having mega venusaur is your
only safe answer to all azumarill variants while for manaphy you have a shit load of counters if u forgot ice beam and energy ball for inferior coverage, for example lets talk about hp fire manaphy yes now u destroy ferrothoron in one hit but at what cost?? if u lose ice beam u cant beat damn dragons and bulky grasses, if u lose enery ball you lose to bulky waters, if u dont have rain dance u have no way to beat unaware clefable and no way to stop status conditions killing you but then u need to remember that if u lose coverage u are always get walled by something normally thats not a problem because you can tailor your team to handle the walls that manaphy struggle and viceversa but that can be said to almost any wall breaker and if manaphy is the best of the best wall breakera then he would be S rank until u factor that there are wall breakers that flat out 6-0 OHKOS stall (SD diggersby, nasty plot thundurus, belly drum azumarill, CM latios, gengar stall breaker set, etc just to name a few) with almost no team support so people are really overexagerating manaphys capability to 6-0 Ko stall but the true reality is that manaphy needs more support to destroy stall than other stall breakers cause every manaphy set has some drawbacks like match up reliant problems or the fact that u need more wallbreakers to make manaphy work in that case, here are the standar manaphy sets
TG + RD + rest + scald= this shit 6-0 OHKOs stall because its a stall breaker that last forever lol still its the most match up reliant set and before you have set up you are just a sitting duck with 0 offensive presence and even boosted you are set up bait to other waters, grasses and dragons, only good niche to this is that you troll hard sand offense.
TG + rain dance + 2 attacks: Its still a good wall breaker and a good roll scald in rain or burn on unaware clefable means gg still while its inmune to status (only 5 turns then u need to click rain again..) u lack the survavility that rest gives you and you are gonna get walled and/or set up bait by the same waters or dragons that gave the last set the same problems.
Cm + rain dance + scald + rest=
Sorry this set is plain shit and any stall player knows that other calm minders, taunt users, phazers or unaware mons can deal with this.
TG + 3 attacks: best manaphy set and the reason why people want to bump Manaphy to S rank, most common and consistent manaphy set because it set ups so quicky that defensive cores cant react to this and they are doomed to whatever coverage manaphy has, still if u get out of the standar set (TG + scald + Ice beam + energy ball) to use more niche options like hp fire or psyquic its always going to be inferior to the standar set and it means you need more support to make manaphy work ;
in that case i just simply prefer a
reliable mega that 6-0 OHKO stall like SD mega charizard X or Mega
gardevoir or a slow but effective wall breaker like diggersby to destroy slower walls and its not dead weight vs offense because stab huge power quick attacks at +2 sweeps some offensive cores and leave the rest of the team to deal with offense than a shakky wall breaker that does not put work when he has a boosted defensive threath or its offense.
Manaphy is not better than azumaril rofl azumaril between play rough, aqua jet and knock off with belly drum you break any kind of stall or defensive core even ferro and amoongus cant wall an azumarills knock off at +6 (they are destroyed in one hit) having mega venusaur is your only safe answer to all azumarill variants
Lol how is Manaphy even comparable to Azumarill? I find it ironic that you're undermining Manaphy's effectiveness against stall yet over-exaggerating Azumarill's matchup against stall. Let me tell you that stall is definitely not 6-0ed by Belly Drum Azumarill, as there are plenty of viable checks such as Tentacruel, Slowbro, Alomomola, Skarmory, Quagsire, Clefable, Manaphy, Suicune, and Mega Venusaur. When stall is more or less transitioning to a less passive sort of semi-stall, leaning towards balance, other viable checks appear, such as Mega Scizor, just to name one. By that logic any boosting wallbreakers such as Volcarona and Crawdaunt 'effortless' 6-0 stall when that just isn't the case. Azumarill is also worn down really quickly by residual damage especially from Toxic and Will-O-Wisp, and it really doesn't have a 'better' matchup against stall.
GuatemalaPartiratuculo said:
while for manaphy you have a shit load of counters if u forgot ice beam and energy ball for inferior coverage, for example lets talk about hp fire manaphy yes now u destroy ferrothoron in one hit but at what cost?? if u lose ice beam u cant beat damn dragons and bulky grasses, if u lose enery ball you lose to bulky waters, if u dont have rain dance u have no way to beat unaware clefable and no way to stop status conditions killing you but then u need to remember that if u lose coverage u are always get walled by something normally thats not a problem because you can tailor your team to handle the walls that manaphy struggle and viceversa but that can be said to almost any wall breaker and if manaphy is the best of the best wall breakera then he would be S rank until u factor that there are wall breakers that flat out 6-0 OHKOS stall (SD diggersby, nasty plot thundurus, belly drum azumarill, CM latios, gengar stall breaker set, etc just to name a few) with almost no team support so people are really overexagerating manaphys capability to 6-0 Ko stall but the true reality is that manaphy needs more support to destroy stall than other stall breakers cause every manaphy set has some drawbacks like match up reliant problems or the fact that u need more wallbreakers to make manaphy work in that case, here are the standar manaphy sets
Does Manaphy really have a shitload of counters on stall though? Often enough the stall player will need to scout for the moveslots of Manaphy because of the sheer amount of coverage it gets, and by that time Manaphy will probably be at +3 with something burnt from Scald and another crippled intensely. Hidden Power Fire certainly isn't useless outside of hitting Ferrothorn. What about Grass- and Steel-types, especially if not running Ice Beam? Skarmory, Mega Scizor, Celebi, Amoonguss are just some instances where Hidden Power Fire is extremely beneficial. And that's not even talking about other sets such as Tail Glow + Rain Dance or Calm Mind sets which are also quite effective, because of the sheer power of TG + RD under rain rendering Clefable unable to counter Manaphy, the difficulty of breaking through a Manaphy using Calm Mind when rain is up. You can't really use lack of coverage as a sufficient argument when teammates are factored and the ease in which bulky Psychic-types can be trapped and eliminated when VoltTurn cores and Pursuit trappers exist. You also neglect to mention that Manaphy has the incredibly broken move in Scald which lets it bullshit its way through switch-ins which is something that sets it apart from other stallbreakers. It's not 'passive or weak' at all at +0 when you factor in the potential burns induced by Scald which are a major factor in its ability to stallbreak because many stall mons hate getting burnt and taking residual damage every turn. Manaphy also isn't gonna struggle against many walls when you again factor in Scald and its wide realm of coverage options. Yeah the reason that Tail Glow + 3 Attacks is such as great set is because of the variety of coverage it gets which sometimes is more than stall can handle. Between Energy Ball, Ice Beam, Hidden Power Fire, and even other options such as Psychic, Shadow Ball, and Signal Beam, stall really struggles to consistently find switch-ins for Manaphy.
The fact that you mentioned without Rain Dance Manaphy struggles against Unaware Clefable is proof of the overcentralization caused by Manaphy. Mixed or specially defensive Unaware Clefable is pretty much the only way left for stall to effectively combat Manaphy, and that's kinda shaky as Tail Glow + Rain Dance sets are pretty annoying for it to face.
No one's actually said Manaphy is the greatest wallbreaker lol. Granted that it is really good at +3 and with Scald shenanigans, but you must remember that a wallbreaker is not equivalent to a stallbreaker. The wallbreakers you've listed don't even 6-0 stall unless the opponent is weakened a lot or plays terribly. Swords Dance Diggersby is checked by Sableye, Skarmory, Slowbro, Tornadus-T, Starmie, Alomomola, Chesnaught, Quagsire, and Bronzong. Nasty Plot Thundurus is more problematic but Quagsire, Clefable, Celebi, Sylveon, Chansey, and Jirachi are viable checks. Calm Mind Latios definitely doesn't 6-0 stall unless given a great matchup because of Clefable, Ferrothorn, Tornadus-T, Slowking, and Skarmory. Gengar's matchup against stall is also over-exaggerated; Gengar isn't exactly armageddon for stall when you consider Mega Sableye, Gliscor, Heatran, Tornadus-T, Tentacruel, Talonflame etc. are good answers for it.
How does Manaphy require more team support than other 'wallbreakers' such as Diggersby and Gengar to sweep? With one boost it becomes immediately threatening, has the bulk to take on most defensive Pokemon, has the coverage to break past said defensive Pokemon, and if running Rain Dance, is immune to status, unlike Diggersby and Gengar. Granted every Pokemon needs a little amount of support to sweep unless the opponent's team is garbage or woefully unprepared (but let's be honest, what stall team is unprepared for Manaphy?), otherwise it would be S+ rank and insta-banned. Let's take a moveset of Tail Glow + Scald + Ice Beam + Energy Ball. The only real counters to this on stall are Ferrothorn, Clefable, and Mega Venusaur. Ferrothorn is 3HKOed by Ice Beam, or 2HKOed on the switch when having taken around 15% damage. The combination of Tail Glow-boosted Scald and Ice Beam beats Ferrothorn when at 74% health as well. Clefable hates Scald, but does handle Manaphy decently. Mega Venusaur is actually 2HKOed by +3 Ice Beam and also hates switching into Scald. There really aren't many counters on stall for Manaphy outside of stuff like specially defensive Mega Venusaur and Clefable. It certainly doesn't have matchup-reliant problems when all Manaphy needs to do is weaken Clefable or Ferrothorn a little bit, click Tail Glow, and basically win. Manaphy doesn't NEED to have a wallbreaker by its side to function well lol, it just needs stuff slightly weakened.
GuatemalaPartiratuculo said:
TG + RD + rest + scald= this shit 6-0 OHKOs stall because its a stall breaker that last forever lol still its the most match up reliant set and before you have set up you are just a sitting duck with 0 offensive presence and even boosted you are set up bait to other waters, grasses and dragons, only good niche to this is that you troll hard sand offense.
TG + rain dance + 2 attacks: Its still a good wall breaker and a good roll scald in rain or burn on unaware clefable means gg still while its inmune to status (only 5 turns then u need to click rain again..) u lack the survavility that rest gives you and you are gonna get walled and/or set up bait by the same waters or dragons that gave the last set the same problems.
Cm + rain dance + scald + rest=
Sorry this set is plain shit and any stall player knows that other calm minders, taunt users, phazers or unaware mons can deal with this.
TG + 3 attacks: best manaphy set and the reason why people want to bump Manaphy to S rank, most common and consistent manaphy set because it set ups so quicky that defensive cores cant react to this and they are doomed to whatever coverage manaphy has, still if u get out of the standar set (TG + scald + Ice beam + energy ball) to use more niche options like hp fire or psyquic its always going to be inferior to the standar set and it means you need more support to make manaphy work
I find it extremely ironic that you state that Tail Glow + Rain Dance + Rest 6-0s stall when earlier you explicitly stated that Manaphy has bad coverage and doesn't have the options and coverage to beat stall. As I said before, Manaphy doesn't have zero offensive presence prior to setting up because of Scald. Tail Glow + Rain Dance + 2 Attacks I find it also ironic that you state that Manaphy sorely misses out on the longevity that Rest gives it but you neglect to mention other 'stallbreakers' such as Choice Specs Gothitelle and Swords Dance Diggersby doesn't have longevity as well. Longevity doesn't matter when you straight up beat and outspeed everything lol. Calm Mind Manaphy isn't complete shit lmao, it shows your complete lack of experience with it. It's really hard to break when at a few boosts which isn't all too hard and the reliable recovery and the immunity to status strengthens this. Yeah I'll admit it's Manaphy's least viable set but it's still there. On Tail Glow + 3 Attacks, there isn't a 'standard' set. Manaphy is extremely versatile and it's moveslots are extremely easily to tailor to fit your teams needs. If you run Hidden Power Fire you don't need 'substantial' support as Pursuit trappers are not hard to come by - by that logic Landorus requires 'substantial' support too because it likes having Pursuit users by its side, which is flawed. Oh and Psychic is kinda meh on Manaphy.
GuatemalaPartiratuculo said:
in that case i just simply prefer a reliable mega that 6-0 OHKO stall like SD mega charizard X or Mega gardevoir or a slow but effective wall breaker like diggersby to destroy slower walls and its not dead weight vs offense because stab huge power quick attacks at +2 sweeps some offensive cores and leave the rest of the team to deal with offense than a shakky wall breaker that does not put work when he has a boosted defensive threath or its offense.
I've said before Diggersby doesn't 6-0 stall. Manaphy isn't a 'shaky wallbreaker' by any means when the sheer power it gets after a Tail Glow boost and the bullshitting it does with Scald is effective at deterring walls. It's also not dead weight against offense, against contrary belief, because of Scald and also of the immense power from Tail Glow.
TL;DR Manaphy is a fantastic stallbreaker and balance breaker. On the fence about its placement so I'm more or less indifferent on that.
Ok to clear up the first misconception , I believe CM rain dance is manaphys 'worst set". I was referring to the tail glow rain dance set (its second best set) as 6-0ing stall and never the calm mind set, where as tail glow 3 attacks is the best. That " it 6-0s" stall is a hyperbole, but the emphasis is made because manaphy breaks MOST stall easier than almost anything else with its tail glow rain dance set. On top of that it is among the best balance breakers, and the reason it is being proposed for S rank is because it excels over others who take on a similar role even in the current A+ ranking. Its move pool isn't limited, it has incredible coverage options. And yea those things you mentioned are good checks, but that only goes so far and manaphy can still break them with its most common sets with ice beam energy ball and scald, unlike CM keldeo who usually doesn't fit in as many powerful coverage options against his wider array of reliable checks and doesnt have option of getting to +6 in SPA in two turns. And if we are doing the argument of specs, it should be obvious keldeo cant switch to a different move unless it switches then comes back. Additionally, ammoongus isn't a reliable answer to rain dance tail glow because psychic , and any coverage move for that matter is slashed with rest.
You say that TG+RD breaks stall easier, but you're forgetting that you only have 2 coverage moves to break stall. If you carry psychic, yay, you get past amoonguss, but now you need support to break mlati, goodra, waters, celebi, tangrowth, I'm sure there are more i'm missing. Not to mention two entire turns to start doing anything christ you might as well just put leech seed and take 20% off yourself before you do anything lol.
I don't rly know how you keep tellin us how its "among the best balance breakers" when that wall of calcs pretty much showed you its the worst.
As AM addressed well, those calcs just narrow mindedly show that in theory Manaphy relies on a base 80 move and 100 Spa to do its wall breaking and usually only runs leftiez, So the char x comparison isn't the best comparison, when it gets a base 120 power stab with tough claws. The same applies to some of those other megas like heriacross who has base 185 attack. So yea manaphy loses out on raw and immediate power, but unlike those megas it can hold an item and can be status free without need for support on its rain dance sets along with reliable recovery with rest thanks to hydration, while spamming Scald everywhere with that 30 percent =100 percent burns and being neutral to rocks and resisting or being neutral to most priority. Still, scald off of 100 Spa isn't that bad at +3 and certainly at +6, especially since most of the things that can survive it such as mew typically cant do anything back. So those calcs are misleading and are still hiding information, as they suggest manaphy doesn't have some glaring advantages over those other wall breakers that allow it to make up for the difference in raw power. The main exception I do see is zard x because it boosts its power as well as speed and naturally has near perfect coverage with its stabs, making it argubaly more frightening than manaphy in many cases, especially against offense ( which u guys of course will give a thumbs up on), but i think its funny because Zard x is another S rank candidate people in this thread have been torn in half over, and it wouldn't surprise me to see both it and manaphy get raised. Further, manaphy is already ranked higher than the majority of those other breakers you listed for good reasons, regardless if it goes to S or not. And Manaphy isn't being raised up because of its bulk, the bulk is just a bonus and is good, not the best, but good by reasonable standards.
Misleading lmao. Are you serious?
First off, not all the pokemon i showed were even mega; diggersby, lando-T, breloom, guts heracross, terrakion, and crawdaunt (which can all hold your magical item just like manaphy can :O) are all shown, and are all around 1.5x stronger than manaphy. Idk why you're using the argument that "most things that survive can't do anything back." That's extremely idealistic and pretty much ignores even basic shit like ferro hitting you back with a power whip after it lives everything bar +3 hp fire.
On the other hand, why let things survive when you can just kill them with wallbreakers that are simply stronger :O Also, when i say it usually only runs leftiez, what's more important is that it rarely carries any items to boost its power, which was the point i was hoping to get across.
So these "glaring advantages" you talk about, its basically scald burns and bulk that gets no investment.
.....
I mean, ok, lets trade 50% of raw power over other wallbreakers for a little bit of bulk that's already shredded to bits simply by setting up.
Cool...
tbf you might even argue that manaphy has an easier time setting up due to its bulk, but the way I see it, other wallbreakers actually having initial power let them force pokemon out to set up; nothing fears an unboosted manaphy.
As AM addressed well, those calcs just narrow mindedly show that in theory Manaphy relies on a base 80 move and 100 Spa to do its wall breaking and usually only runs leftiez,
"narrow mindedly"
"in theory relies on base 80 move and 100 spa"
LOL this damage control is way too real
Plus with the comparison to Lando thing, realize that Lando was banned with close to a 75 percent majority iirc. Being S rank doesn't make you ban worthy necessarily (looking at clefable), but all arguably broken mons are always gonna be S rank until they are banned. The comparison to lando is to show why manaphy can fit S rank, not necessarily that its as good as lando because i personally agree its not, cause then it probably would have already been banned. lando is better against offense and adds extra utility like rocks which is an advantage it had over manaphy when it was allowed. But manaphy , now in lando i's **absence** is a go to wall breaker, and excels in beating stall and balance , even better than other A+ mons, all while not taking up a mega slot. Like you guys can compare it to metagross and say megagross is better against offense, and I will say manaphy is better and more self sufficient against most stall although megagross is obviously really good as well. So i do think manaphy and megagross can share space in S rank.
you tell me that mana wallbreaks better than A+ mons or w/e but all you've really shown is that manaphy is essentially 50% weaker than any other wallbreaker that can boost in the tier and only has scald a some bulk to show for it. I really don't think that makes up for much lol.
Saying it's a go to wallbreaker doesn't necessarily mean its a good wallbreaker, what it does gaurantee is that it has a lot of hype for it.
"So many times" is not that many when you have a move with a 30% chance and unless you're unlucky by the third time you've already gotten your burn, you can see this in a ton of matches with just Scald being used it's not that hard to actually get a burn nor is exactly difficult to establish points 1 and 2 in the first place. Point 1 is moot by the fact that outside of offense most teams are going to switch into their emergency button. Players know this, they don't just set up Tail Glow right away unless there's a clear opportunity in that something is about to die when they do, or they're just facing a shitty stall team there's always that to, albeit one of its exaggerated points for going up. This is the point at which most users in control of Manaphy will click Scald, sure people have seen this a 1000 times where many of these included burns. So unless you have a sure fire water switch in that is fat such as SpDef Celebi, while at the same time not being threatened tremendously by Tail Glow like M-Venusaur and Amoonguss most times is going to give the Mana player much more of an advantage than the opposing player has. So in about 3 turns or less you already managed Step 2 making Step 3 easier in the long run.
So basically your'e telling me you need to bring in manaphy 3 times to burn its check, let the burn actually whittle the check down, keep manaphy healthy enough to set up throughout all of this to set up later. To do its job properly, you've told me you need to bring manaphy safely in 4 times. Wow. 4 drought fire blasts, 4 pixilate hyper voices, 4 pure power high jump kicks, 4 tough claws flare blitzes, 4 specs scalds, 4 cb play roughs, 4 guts close combats, etc. Seems like a lot more damage to balance teams in the end to me.
These other nukes are specifically megas, and cherry picked to be some of the hardest hitting ones who have their own fair share of problems either through legitimate problems they have in functioning at a consistent level such as Char-Ys rock weakness, M-Heras average speed tier + prediction reliant on various switch ins, M-Gards susceptibly to M-Scizor and weak defensive side (takes like 75-80% from an offensive Jolly EQ by Garchomp as an example).
Lol i didn't cherry pick at all i could have just as easily said specs slowking/tangrowth, or band azu/ttar, you get the idea. Anything strong.
Besides, I'd rather be prediction reliant that teammate reliant, atleast mega hera can hit everything it needs to hard enough that not much really walls it.
These share of problems is Manaphy is established as a wallbreaker because of the ease at which Tail Glow and setting up can happen against a lot of team. If it was considered "weak" under some arbitrary definition of something that hits hard it wouldn't sit at where it's at in the rankings and it also wouldn't be the bane of some peoples existence right now. Weak is somewhat of a weird term to use when in one turn the term "weak" can and does go out the window in most games Manaphy will be used in. I don't think this will ever be a strong point in advocating against using Manaphy ever on any team more so in that it's prone to offense, spikes prone, mono typing leaves open to a lot of strong neutral hits from stuff like Latios, coverage dependent, a Pokemon who's strongest aspect is the one coming into the match to gain momentum, not the one being used to switch into and be a threat at the moment like M-Gross and M-Alt, things like that are flaws I see in Manaphy with varying levels of degree, albeit most of these are minimal concerns at times.
I mean weak was more of a comparative argument. Weak in general isn't really used to describe boosted pokemon, but when you put manaphy alongside boosted pokemon that becomes apparent. Setting up easily is nice, and having coverage to hit almost everything is nice, but you're still ultimately reliant on teammates to take out what you can't, weaken even what you can, and get free switch-ins to get CHANCES to scald burn your checks. It's really not an S rank mon, at all.
Yeah, its weaker than every other wallbreaker base stat-wise, ability-wise, base power of move-wise, reliant on coverage-wise....you know, everything that can contribute to a pokemon's damage output....
Like if people want to use the Landorus comparison, which is faulty as well in my eyes, you got to realize that Landorus' offensive potential far exceeded that of Manaphy since it didn't necessitate set up but still could. If we're talking about a pivoting tool Manaphy isn't really going to be doing that most games other than switching into a resist most times. That's...really about where those comparisons and flaws can go. After that like the pool of wall-breakers it becomes pretty cherry picked in what's being its defined role when it changes on both team and situation and these poor matchups become even smaller once a Tail Glow comes into play.
Your'e absolutely correct, offensive potential of Landorus, and pretty much every other wallbreaker i listed, far exceeds manaphy's, and manaphy is a higher rank than things that are 50% stronger than it because of its bulk (scald argument lol). Other things have plenty of cute coverage moves too, (and actually hit everything they need to with them), so I wouldn't say that's some big advantage manaphy has over other as well.
Essentially, manaphy is a higher rank because it trades 50% raw power for some bulk/typing which helps it set up a lot easier. The fact that it has zero immediate power, is extremely coverage dependent, and spikes prong/strong neutral hit prone like AM said, some of those are flaws that not even other wallbreakers have (ok most of them are dying to LO dracos as well but they're wallbreakers what can u do).
Not only that, atleast your +2 SD wallbreakers can destroy shit with their natural stabs, but manaphy on the other hand is ridiculously reliant on hitting things super effectively. A +3 timid scald actually doesn't even kill raikou without SR, I can assure you every other wallbreaker after a boost will have no troubles evaporating uninvested 90/100 bulk. I think we've been clouded by its variety of coverage and forgotten that it relies so much on it to get anywhere.
Is a loss in 50% power and some extra bulk really enough to bump manaphy to S rank despite all of the other wallbreakers in the tier having so much other shit over it? I don't
Constantly harping on Manaphy being "weak" is actually pretty silly. I mean we all know it's not massively powerful off the bat you don't have to convince anyone of that. It's the fact that it can boost its power more quickly than anything in the tier bar Belly Drum users and doesn't have the repercussion of losing 1/2 of its HP (and on top of that isn't required to run a Life Orb which allows it to keep its longevity which can actually be key against defensive teams which try to wear you down over time). Okay so even after the +3 maybe it's not the strongest thing in the tier but once you consider its coverage options basically anything could potentially be 2HKO'd. As for rather relying on prediction than teammates... well I can't really agree with that lol. Every pokemon should rely on teammates to begin with so that's not really a crutch while relying on prediction certainly has momentum shifting consequences.
Not really sure how coverage dependence is a bad thing either. I mean the pokemon that aren't coverage dependent i.e. Mega Scizor actually just get walled way more easily which is the entire point of Manaphy. You say it's not as strong as many wallbreakers but the fact remains that many of these other wallbreakers are unable to smash by certain defensive cores because they lack the coverage to do so (i.e. Mega Medicham through Mega Sableye teams). In this metagame it doesn't only matter if a wallbreaker can break walls, what matters moreso is if it can break cores. So for example Serperior can smash through Mega Scizor + Clefable but once Heatran comes out call it walled. Mega Medicham is smashing Chansey + Skarm but is walled by Mega Sableye. In Manaphy's case it's incredibly hard to pick out a counter especially before you know its coverage moves (and this is the only time I compared it to Landorus whatsoever, it obviously doesn't have many of the other advantages Landorus does) meaning that it threatens a lot more defensive teams. Either way I would argue that its coverage is actually one of its greatest strengths so you trying to make it out to be a weakness actually doesn't make any sense to me.
Im gonna nom the actual mon who should be going to s rank...zard x
Everyone finally figured out that zard x rn is almost if not as good as he was in late x and y... most of its "counteea" aren't even really counters ..
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 229-271 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 132-156 (42.9 - 50.8%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
This mon doesn't have 4 mss and can run whatever works on your team the best... its amazing movepool (dd,sd,roost,dclaw,outrage,eq,flare,firepunch,sub) provides great coverage and can set up on many things at will.. IMO if anything mega zard x got EVEN BETTER in oras such few things can stop it after zard gets a dd off and zard has decent bulk also... and is one of the hardest mons to scout..
And Zard x is effective against ALL types of teams... In summary zard x is a broken offensive mon whos extremely hard to revenge
Im gonna nom the actual mon who should be going to s rank...zard x
Everyone finally figured out that zard x rn is almost if not as good as he was in late x and y... most of its "checks" aren't even really checks ..
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 229-271 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 132-156 (42.9 - 50.8%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
This mon doesn't have 4 mss and can run whatever works on your team the best... its amazing movepool (dd,sd,roost,dclaw,outrage,eq,flare,firepunch,sub) provides great coverage and can set up on many things at will.. IMO if anything mega zard x got EVEN BETTER in oras such few things can stop it after zard gets a dd off and zard has decent bulk also... and is one of the hardest mons to scout..
And Zard x is effective against ALL types of teams...
They are checks because they beat Zard X in a one-on-one scenario. I think you meant to say that most of its checks are not full-blown counters, which is the case for many viable Pokemon in the metagame anyways.
I'm not gonna write up a gigantic ass paragraph about Manaphy going to S, which I agree with btw; but honestly everyone is making Manaphy out to be 'Manaphy vs. the rest of OU' when the reality is that Manaphy has five other teammates in the back that can and are supposed to deal with threats that Manaphy can't by itself since it lacks a coverage move that the team it's on covers FOR IT. Like yes I get that there are a lot of 1v1 moments in Pokemon but seriously people this isn't Manaphy vs. the world. Manaphy should be on a team that covers what it can't, it shouldn't be 'oh he has a mega venu i already lost' that's just bad teambuilding. Pokemon is a 6v6 game and everyone is making out Manaphy to be a six man squad just by itself. I also think that the whole bullshit about Manaphy wasting it's bulk on setting up a TG, well if it's supposed to set up on stall and defensive balance 'mons, wouldn't it not be taking that much damage? I mean yeah Manaphy struggles against offense for that reason but if you use Manaphy like it's supposed to be a wallbreaker, you'd set up on fatass passive walls that are not supposed to do shit to you, and no that doesn't mean start setting up on a Ferrothorn but set up on something that Manaphy doesn't exactly struggle against without +3.
I'm not gonna write up a gigantic ass paragraph about Manaphy going to S, which I agree with btw; but honestly everyone is making Manaphy out to be 'Manaphy vs. the rest of OU' when the reality is that Manaphy has five other teammates in the back that can and are supposed to deal with threats that Manaphy can't by itself since it lacks a coverage move that the team it's on covers FOR IT. Like yes I get that there are a lot of 1v1 moments in Pokemon but seriously people this isn't Manaphy vs. the world. Manaphy should be on a team that covers what it can't, it shouldn't be 'oh he has a mega venu i already lost' that's just bad teambuilding. Pokemon is a 6v6 game and everyone is making out Manaphy to be a six man squad just by itself. I also think that the whole bullshit about Manaphy wasting it's bulk on setting up a TG, well if it's supposed to set up on stall and defensive balance 'mons, wouldn't it not be taking that much damage? I mean yeah Manaphy struggles against offense for that reason but if you use Manaphy like it's supposed to be a wallbreaker, you'd set up on fatass passive walls that are not supposed to do shit to you, and no that doesn't mean start setting up on a Ferrothorn but set up on something that Manaphy doesn't exactly struggle against without +3.
This argument can be made for just about any Pokemon. If Manaphy doesn't get a chance to set up, it's just weak. I really feel A+ is fine for it. Besides, what really changed for Manaphy? It has always invalidated stall (only the current "I am still unprepared for Manaphy" stall, in fact), it isn't a huge epiphany. I am not sure why people are proposing for it to raise to S when stall in general hasn't exactly been rising in popularity, so Manaphy isn't exactly being more useful.
If it is useful only against stall, that really isn't a good argument to go up to S. Lots of things can do that against a playstyle that is just so passive and gives free turns with a single misplay. For it to go to S, it should be able to beat a majority of the meta (or at least set up on a relatively large portion of it). Not to mention that even at +3, it can sometimes only kill 1 Pokemon before being revenge killed itself...it is just too slow.
This argument can be made for just about any Pokemon. If Manaphy doesn't get a chance to set up, it's just weak. I really feel A+ is fine for it. Besides, what really changed for Manaphy? It has always invalidated stall (only the current "I am still unprepared for Manaphy" stall, in fact), it isn't a huge epiphany. I am not sure why people are proposing for it to raise to S when stall in general hasn't exactly been rising in popularity, so Manaphy isn't exactly being more useful.
If it is useful only against stall, that really isn't a good argument to go up to S. Lots of things can do that against a playstyle that is just so passive and gives free turns with a single misplay. For it to go to S, it should be able to beat a majority of the meta (or at least set up on a relatively large portion of it). Not to mention that even at +3, it can sometimes only kill 1 Pokemon before being revenge killed itself...it is just too slow.
No, in reality Manaphy is also useful against Balanced teams, wrecking cores like Ferrothorn / Hippowdon / Starmie if it has HP Fire + Energy Ball, VenuTran if it has Psychic, etc... Basically, a large portion of the metagame, so your argument that it cannot beat a majority of the meta is a little exagerated.
Lol how is Manaphy even comparable to Azumarill? I find it ironic that you're undermining Manaphy's effectiveness against stall yet over-exaggerating Azumarill's matchup against stall. Let me tell you that stall is definitely not 6-0ed by Belly Drum Azumarill, as there are plenty of viable checks such as Tentacruel, Slowbro, Alomomola, Skarmory, Quagsire, Clefable, Manaphy, Suicune, and Mega Venusaur. When stall is more or less transitioning to a less passive sort of semi-stall, leaning towards balance, other viable checks appear, such as Mega Scizor, just to name one. By that logic any boosting wallbreakers such as Volcarona and Crawdaunt 'effortless' 6-0 stall when that just isn't the case. Azumarill is also worn down really quickly by residual damage especially from Toxic and Will-O-Wisp, and it really doesn't have a 'better' matchup against stall.
Lets be real stall is almost dead so the niche "OMG i just click tail glow i just destroyed that shitty passive stall team that has 0 offensive presence" its not really good enough to push manaphy over any other wallbreakera, now we should qualify manaphys effectiveness vs semistall and balance now ironically in semistall u have more answers to Manaphy like Ferro, Dragalge, AV specially defensive tangrowth, clefable, raikou, Lati@s with recover etc and if u cant set up you lol how are you going to get kills like you do it with stall, lets not forget that you are spikes and toxic spikes prone and even if u set up on more passive things like heatran or hippo you can get phazed out so the argument that residual damage will kill you can be applied to both azumarill and manaphy and any other wall breaker, the difference between both of them is that in those free given turns azumarill inmediate power will give you more reward than manaphys weak scald ("but scald is broken i try to rely on hax to beat my counters" i love this argument :3 ) and if you dont get the burn its just a wasted turn.
Also azumarill doesnt have checks to belly drum maybe only tenta (who hates band and it doesnt get reliable recovery) and megas like scysor or venu the other "checks" are booped in one hit or 2 hits:
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 334-394 (84.7 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Alomomola: 651-766 (121.9 - 143.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 291-343 (87.1 - 102.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Manaphy: 373-439 (92.3 - 108.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Unaware Clefable: 190-225 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 466-550 (115.3 - 136.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
so yeah Azumaril is susceptible to burn like any other physical wall breaker but even then u need to rely on a scald burn (only 30% to burn..) to have a chance vs unboosted azumaril, lets not forget about band set its like facing majin boo.
Constantly harping on Manaphy being "weak" is actually pretty silly. I mean we all know it's not massively powerful off the bat you don't have to convince anyone of that. It's the fact that it can boost its power more quickly than anything in the tier bar Belly Drum users and doesn't have the repercussion of losing 1/2 of its HP (and on top of that isn't required to run a Life Orb which allows it to keep its longevity which can actually be key against defensive teams which try to wear you down over time). Okay so even after the +3 maybe it's not the strongest thing in the tier but once you consider its coverage options basically anything could potentially be 2HKO'd. As for rather relying on prediction than teammates... well I can't really agree with that lol. Every pokemon should rely on teammates to begin with so that's not really a crutch while relying on prediction certainly has momentum shifting consequences.
So what you said in the first 4 sentences still applies to every other wallbreaker that can boost. The fact that it boosts its power quicker doesn't matter if its still pissweak after it. Every pokemon relies on teammates, but you make it seem like they HAVE to. They certainly don't. Besides, an independent prediction reliant wallbreaker is still better than one that relies on teammates because while you might lose momentum, if you predict correctly, then the rewards are far greater, and you're forgetting to mention that.
I'd sooner use an independent prediction reliant mon than a dependent but consistent mon because removing specific pokemon is far more difficult than predicting the right switch-in, which by the way, is putting immense pressure on the opponent. A good player won't just let you weaken ferro to obvious lures like hp fire lati either, and the trouble of finding an effective lure at that point is just more troublesome than running a less bulky but far more powerful wallbreaker.
Not really sure how coverage dependence is a bad thing either. I mean the pokemon that aren't coverage dependent i.e. Mega Scizor actually just get walled way more easily which is the entire point of Manaphy. You say it's not as strong as many wallbreakers but the fact remains that many of these other wallbreakers are unable to smash by certain defensive cores because they lack the coverage to do so (i.e. Mega Medicham through Mega Sableye teams). In this metagame it doesn't only matter if a wallbreaker can break walls, what matters moreso is if it can break cores. So for example Serperior can smash through Mega Scizor + Clefable but once Heatran comes out call it walled. Mega Medicham is smashing Chansey + Skarm but is walled by Mega Sableye. In Manaphy's case it's incredibly hard to pick out a counter especially before you know its coverage moves (and this is the only time I compared it to Landorus whatsoever, it obviously doesn't have many of the other advantages Landorus does) meaning that it threatens a lot more defensive teams. Either way I would argue that its coverage is actually one of its greatest strengths so you trying to make it out to be a weakness actually doesn't make any sense to me.
???????
Where the fuck did this come from.
Look at char-x, weavile, tyrantrum, azu, diggersby, mega lopunny, mega gardevoir, terrakion, fuck i could go on forever!
What's in common between the pokemon i just listed? How effective their stab moves are. I mean, at most, there's maybe one or two checks that these "easily walled" pokemon don't hit neutrally with their stabs, but 90% of the time these monsters can just use their STABS, NOT THEIR COVERAGE, and DO JUST FINE. in the case of char-x, it literally doesn't need anything, it just plows through the tier off its stabs and raw power alone. Talk about a shitty example lmao.
it's really the opposite. Pokemon that AREN'T coverage dependent, those that mostly use powerful stab combos, are the best pokemon in the tier.
"HUR DUR THOSE POKEMON ARE ONLY FINE BECAUSE THEY'RE STRONG"
That's simply not true either. If char-x had grass/psychic stabs instead, it would be insanely easy to check. The type coverage of your stabs and your natural power both equate to your coverage dependency, and with manaphy's fairly bland mono-water stab and relatively weak power, it can't even get by on neutral mono-water attacks. It's simply too weak to spam its stab and watch things die because even 252/0 mew will easily live your strongest move.
And now onto cores:
In this metagame it doesn't only matter if a wallbreaker can break walls, what matters moreso is if it can break cores. So for example Serperior can smash through Mega Scizor + Clefable but once Heatran comes out call it walled. Mega Medicham is smashing Chansey + Skarm but is walled by Mega Sableye. In Manaphy's case it's incredibly hard to pick out a counter especially before you know its coverage moves (and this is the only time I compared it to Landorus whatsoever, it obviously doesn't have many of the other advantages Landorus does) meaning that it threatens a lot more defensive teams. Either way I would argue that its coverage is actually one of its greatest strengths so you trying to make it out to be a weakness actually doesn't make any sense to me.
Its not that i was calling its coverage a weakness so much as its overall weakness. Obviously, its good if you have natural power and then coverage moves to nail what your power+stabs can't. But your power+stabs literally do nothing in terms of wallbreakers. Using +3 timid scald vs a stall team will do fucking nothing. It's simply not the case when you look to things like +2 mega garchomp eq, or +2 terrakion LO close combat. Those moves alone are popping even resists, and coverage is required for two mons at most. Same for mega gardevoir, azumarill, you get the idea.
What makes manaphy different, and in my eyes, worse, is that its using its coverage more than its stab. Don't get me wrong, having coverage is great, but its natural lack of power combines the lack of good stab combo and the result is sweeping teams with coverage, not stab.
It's so reliant on coverage to the point where I honestly think Tg/hp fire/psychic/shadow ball would be better at breaking cores than scald/psychic/sball would. That's like using landorus without earth power and it actually working consistently better. It's like using mega altaria with fire blast/earthquake/hp rock/roost and it actually working consistently better. Far from an S rank mon...
I will concede that it breaks cores pretty well, but I look at it this way. Manaphy is A+, and mega garchomp is B. Mega garchomp has more bulk, more power, better stabs, higher base power on all his moves, and absolutely zero counters. It's simply so strong that the precious little cores simply fall to its stabs alone, and it's all just to one set. yeah, it's easier to revenge kill thanks to its typing, and yeah, it does take up a mega slot. It does also depend on the team. But do those two flaws really justify a gap of 5 subranks? Will it justify a bigger gap of 6 subranks?
Then look at char-x. Char-x and manaphy are both at A+, and both are being considered for S. Char-x has probably THE best stab combo in the game, slightly less bulk but a far better defensive typing to make up for it, still neutral to priority, literally almost twice as strong, and can actually sweep offense with DD and has practically no answers to SD on stall. The valued cores also simply evaporate in front of +2 tough claws outrage or flare blitz. The only thing manaphy has over it is not taking up a mega slot. yeah, you can't just slap a char-x wherever you used a manaphy, i get that, it depends on the team. And despite all the flaws manaphy has when compared to char-x, people are thinking about putting it a rank ABOVE it?
EDIT: bludz just gonna edit this in cuz its short:
Well i recognize that manaphy has bulk, is difficult to check and wall, is much easier to fit onto teams than other wallbreakers are, and i'd say all these justify A+. S is just WAY too much of a stretch, that's all.
You also think its silly of me to harp on about mana being weak, but can you objectively show me manaphy being strong with a calc in comparison to another relevant boosted wallbreaker? Just fyi, whenever i call it weak, i'm calling it weak in terms of wallbreakers, its obviously going to be strong when compared to unboosted pokemon, any boosted pokemon will.
On my phone so yeah would be hard to reply to everything you said. Not gonna argue with you regarding the prediction vs teammates thing since I honestly don't agree or see the merit to that argument.
I think Zard X deserves S rank more, I certainly wouldn't put Manaphy a sub rank above it.
As for strong stabs there's definitely a huge benefit there I won't deny you that. However its a simple fact that these (stab spammers that dont rely on coverage) Pokemon are easier to come in on if you have an appropriate answer. Powerful stab is certainly important but Manaphy is the clear exception to this rule in terms of wallbreakers. I don't care how strong Azu is, when it comes up against Mega Venu its gonna be totally walled. So I don't think that strong stab is the end all be all of a good wallbreakers. No need to wear down your counters with insanely strong stab if your coverage move actually does more. As for mana without scald well lol it would prolly work ok til your opponent realized that Heatran walled you lmao.
You're emphasizing Manaphy's flaws to the point that seems more appropriate in asking for a drop than saying it should stay the same rank and this signifies to me that your arguments are exaggerated.
You say that TG+RD breaks stall easier, but you're forgetting that you only have 2 coverage moves to break stall. If you carry psychic, yay, you get past amoonguss, but now you need support to break mlati, goodra, waters, celebi, tangrowth, I'm sure there are more i'm missing. Not to mention two entire turns to start doing anything christ you might as well just put leech seed and take 20% off yourself before you do anything lol.
I don't rly know how you keep tellin us how its "among the best balance breakers" when that wall of calcs pretty much showed you its the worst.
Ok, so this entire complete bullshit TG + RD or TG + CM argument was brought up because you mentioned Yawn Empoleon, an obscure check with an obscure move that stall really doesn't use. And even that loses to a manaphy set, which you admitted. Basically, Stall can't counter Manaphy. Simple as that. Next time you bring up another obscure check, remember that everything on stall loses to a manaphy set. The coverage is insane, and every mon you just listed loses to ice beam. You have to concede the fact that Manaphy beats everything on stall with the appropriate coverage move. Also, team support is a thing.
First off, not all the pokemon i showed were even mega; diggersby, lando-T, breloom, guts heracross, terrakion, and crawdaunt (which can all hold your magical item just like manaphy can :O) are all shown, and are all around 1.5x stronger than manaphy. Idk why you're using the argument that "most things that survive can't do anything back." That's extremely idealistic and pretty much ignores even basic shit like ferro hitting you back with a power whip after it lives everything bar +3 hp fire.
On the other hand, why let things survive when you can just kill them with wallbreakers that are simply stronger :O Also, when i say it usually only runs leftiez, what's more important is that it rarely carries any items to boost its power, which was the point i was hoping to get across.
These magical wallbreakers you listed may have more power, but you are completely ignoring what makes them worse than Manaphy. When you say that they force switches, people aren't switching for the hell of it. There are mons that resist their STABs or just straight up OHKO them faster. For example, Hera straight up dies to Talonflame and virtually any faster bird type. So does SD toxic Loom. Diggersby and Lando-T's STABs forces switches into Skarmory, which doesn't give a fuck about either of them. Terrakion forces switches into a CB Scizor which will easily OHKO. And Crawdaunt dies to anything that can take a +2 Aqua Jet. Obviously, if the wallbreakers you listed were so much better than Manaphy, people would have realized it by now. You are over-exaggerating them so much that you might as well nom them for S Rank.
So these "glaring advantages" you talk about, its basically scald burns and bulk that gets no investment.
Are you kidding me? Does +6 in two turns mean anything to you? What about insane coverage? Is it now officially a rule that all wallbreakers have to invest in bulk? No.
I mean, ok, lets trade 50% of raw power over other wallbreakers for a little bit of bulk that's already shredded to bits simply by setting up.
Cool...
Stop overhyping the 50%. Your entire argument is based on power and literally nothing else. If you want to write an argument on power, show us relevant calcs of these mons against their checks or counters. Maybe then the argument will actually have some merit. Once you determine how good a mon is against its checks and counters rather than against a random Mew, you determine how good it is against the current meta, also known as its viability.
tbf you might even argue that manaphy has an easier time setting up due to its bulk, but the way I see it, other wallbreakers actually having initial power let them force pokemon out to set up; nothing fears an unboosted manaphy.
You have to wonder, like I said above, what they are forcing pokemon out into. There is easily a hard stop to every wallbreaker you mentioned, but there is no hard stop on stall to Manaphy with its insane coverage other than fucking Yawn Empoleon. There is so much opportunity cost for every other wallbreaker you mentioned to set up than Manaphy. If you think Manaphy's power is overhyped, check the usefulness of your wallbreakers.
tell me that mana wallbreaks better than A+ mons or w/e but all you've really shown is that manaphy is essentially 50% weaker than any other wallbreaker that can boost in the tier and only has scald a some bulk to show for it. I really don't think that makes up for much lol.
Saying it's a go to wallbreaker doesn't necessarily mean its a good wallbreaker, what it does gaurantee is that it has a lot of hype for it.
Manaphy is a go to wallbreaker for a reason lol. Once it starts sweeping stall, tell me what can stop it other than Yawn Empoleon. Power isn't the only measure of a wallbreaker, and Manaphy is top in all the other areas.
Lol i didn't cherry pick at all i could have just as easily said specs slowking/tangrowth, or band azu/ttar, you get the idea. Anything strong.
Besides, I'd rather be prediction reliant that teammate reliant, atleast mega hera can hit everything it needs to hard enough that not much really walls it.
More evidence of bias and exaggeration. If you think that literally every wallbreaker is better than Manaphy, there is something wrong with you. Are you suggesting it should be down in B- Rank with Tangrowth? Bitch please......
Not only that, atleast your +2 SD wallbreakers can destroy shit with their natural stabs, but manaphy on the other hand is ridiculously reliant on hitting things super effectively. A +3 timid scald actually doesn't even kill raikou without SR, I can assure you every other wallbreaker after a boost will have no troubles evaporating uninvested 90/100 bulk. I think we've been clouded by its variety of coverage and forgotten that it relies so much on it to get anywhere.
Ah, the coverage argument. Yeah, if power bothers you so much, you can run Surf or even an Expert Belt. But coverage reliance is a great thing because it makes Manaphy hard to stop, unlike the wallbreakers above. bludz also covered this, so I really don't have to.
Ok, so this entire complete bullshit TG + RD or TG + CM argument was brought up because you mentioned Yawn Empoleon, an obscure check with an obscure move that stall really doesn't use. And even that loses to a manaphy set, which you admitted. Basically, Stall can't counter Manaphy. Simple as that. Next time you bring up another obscure check, remember that everything on stall loses to a manaphy set. The coverage is insane, and every mon you just listed loses to ice beam. You have to concede the fact that Manaphy beats everything on stall with the appropriate coverage move. Also, team support is a thing.
These magical wallbreakers you listed may have more power, but you are completely ignoring what makes them worse than Manaphy. When you say that they force switches, people aren't switching for the hell of it. There are mons that resist their STABs or just straight up OHKO them faster. For example, Hera straight up dies to Talonflame and virtually any faster bird type. So does SD toxic Loom. Diggersby and Lando-T's STABs forces switches into Skarmory, which doesn't give a fuck about either of them. Terrakion forces switches into a CB Scizor which will easily OHKO. And Crawdaunt dies to anything that can take a +2 Aqua Jet. Obviously, if the wallbreakers you listed were so much better than Manaphy, people would have realized it by now. You are over-exaggerating them so much that you might as well nom them for S Rank.
Are you kidding me? Does +6 in two turns mean anything to you? What about insane coverage? Is it now officially a rule that all wallbreakers have to invest in bulk? No.
Stop overhyping the 50%. Your entire argument is based on power and literally nothing else. If you want to write an argument on power, show us relevant calcs of these mons against their checks or counters. Maybe then the argument will actually have some merit. Once you determine how good a mon is against its checks and counters rather than against a random Mew, you determine how good it is against the current meta, also known as its viability.
You have to wonder, like I said above, what they are forcing pokemon out into. There is easily a hard stop to every wallbreaker you mentioned, but there is no hard stop on stall to Manaphy with its insane coverage other than fucking Yawn Empoleon. There is so much opportunity cost for every other wallbreaker you mentioned to set up than Manaphy. If you think Manaphy's power is overhyped, check the usefulness of your wallbreakers.
Manaphy is a go to wallbreaker for a reason lol. Once it starts sweeping stall, tell me what can stop it other than Yawn Empoleon. Power isn't the only measure of a wallbreaker, and Manaphy is top in all the other areas.
More evidence of bias and exaggeration. If you think that literally every wallbreaker is better than Manaphy, there is something wrong with you. Are you suggesting it should be down in B- Rank with Tangrowth? Bitch please......
Ah, the coverage argument. Yeah, if power bothers you so much, you can run Surf or even an Expert Belt. But coverage reliance is a great thing because it makes Manaphy hard to stop, unlike the wallbreakers above. bludz also covered this, so I really don't have to.
I'll let Srn respond to your actual arguments but I'm going to interject into to this little war to say this: I don't think ANYONE is saying Manaphy is a garbage mon who deserves to go down to D rank. It is widely acknowledged that Manaphy deserves its A+ Rank but Srn's points are there to argue it should not go to S rank. I'm going to further, plant myself on one side and say this: The things you and bludz listed are reasons it deserves its A+ rank while the reasons Srn listed are the reasons it shouldn't go to S rank. Keep Manaphy at A+
Manaphy is not better than
azumaril rofl azumaril
between play rough, aqua jet
and knock off with belly drum
you break any kind of stall or
defensive core even ferro
and amoongus cant wall an
azumarills knock off at +6 (they
are destroyed in one hit) having mega venusaur is your
only safe answer to all azumarill variants while for manaphy you have a shit load of counters if u forgot ice beam and energy ball for inferior coverage, for example lets talk about hp fire manaphy yes now u destroy ferrothoron in one hit but at what cost?? if u lose ice beam u cant beat damn dragons and bulky grasses, if u lose enery ball you lose to bulky waters, if u dont have rain dance u have no way to beat unaware clefable and no way to stop status conditions killing you but then u need to remember that if u lose coverage u are always get walled by something normally thats not a problem because you can tailor your team to handle the walls that manaphy struggle and viceversa but that can be said to almost any wall breaker and if manaphy is the best of the best wall breakera then he would be S rank until u factor that there are wall breakers that flat out 6-0 OHKOS stall (SD diggersby, nasty plot thundurus, belly drum azumarill, CM latios, gengar stall breaker set, etc just to name a few) with almost no team support so people are really overexagerating manaphys capability to 6-0 Ko stall but the true reality is that manaphy needs more support to destroy stall than other stall breakers cause every manaphy set has some drawbacks like match up reliant problems or the fact that u need more wallbreakers to make manaphy work in that case, here are the standar manaphy sets
TG + RD + rest + scald= this shit 6-0 OHKOs stall because its a stall breaker that last forever lol still its the most match up reliant set and before you have set up you are just a sitting duck with 0 offensive presence and even boosted you are set up bait to other waters, grasses and dragons, only good niche to this is that you troll hard sand offense.
TG + rain dance + 2 attacks: Its still a good wall breaker and a good roll scald in rain or burn on unaware clefable means gg still while its inmune to status (only 5 turns then u need to click rain again..) u lack the survavility that rest gives you and you are gonna get walled and/or set up bait by the same waters or dragons that gave the last set the same problems.
Cm + rain dance + scald + rest=
Sorry this set is plain shit and any stall player knows that other calm minders, taunt users, phazers or unaware mons can deal with this.
TG + 3 attacks: best manaphy set and the reason why people want to bump Manaphy to S rank, most common and consistent manaphy set because it set ups so quicky that defensive cores cant react to this and they are doomed to whatever coverage manaphy has, still if u get out of the standar set (TG + scald + Ice beam + energy ball) to use more niche options like hp fire or psyquic its always going to be inferior to the standar set and it means you need more support to make manaphy work ;
in that case i just simply prefer a
reliable mega that 6-0 OHKO stall like SD mega charizard X or Mega
gardevoir or a slow but effective wall breaker like diggersby to destroy slower walls and its not dead weight vs offense because stab huge power quick attacks at +2 sweeps some offensive cores and leave the rest of the team to deal with offense than a shakky wall breaker that does not put work when he has a boosted defensive threath or its offense.
Ok, again manaphy having good coverage options means it can beat what it wants with its coverage. Yes it will be walled by something, but the fact it can adapt and choose what walls it is a plus. But yes, its true it cant get by everything with one set but that can be said about most wall breakers, even megagross which Sits in S rank. Megagross will be walled by skarm without thunder punch, it will be walled by victini and jirachi without EQ, heatran and ferro without hammer arm, bulky chomp without ice punch, so your argument about 4mss really doesn't matter. The point is there are many other mons in this game who dont have the luxury of choosing their counters since they lack any extensive or viable coverage options. the main flaw with manaphy is that its weak without a boost and doesnt have a powerful dual stab combo, so it relies on tail glow + super effective damage to hit the things that walls its water stab, and like i said a +3 ice beam or energy ball scores many kos on common checks to manaphy. Again underselling manaphy over the other wall breakers is completely hiding the information that gardevoir who shares the same speed tier and boasts powerful nuke moves and good typing, has a harder time getting by common answers, and has lesser bulk on manaphy on the physical side with no recovery options or immuntity to status. SD Zard X is a another nuke and S rank candidate who is really good at breaking stall with his SD set, better immediate power and offensive typing but has some glaring flaws. For one, you cant afford to use outrage until the enemy fairies are gone unless you like giving a free turn, so zard x has to rely on teammates before it can break the targets it wants with outrage. Yes it can spam flare blitz against those fairies, but you are forgetting flare blitz recoil is a thing, the SD set lacks roost unless you forgo tailwind, and that weakness to SR isn't going away any time soon, and its still more susceptible to status in comparison to rain dance manaphy. And further, its not like Zard X beats all its opponents with one set either, its ddance sets lacking EQ will struggle with hippo quagsire bulky mega alt mega slowbro alomola and heatran, and bulky will o wisp is nice as well but the point remains. and Diggers by is good and all, but its weakerto common priority, frailer, boasts a slower speed tier, and while it again has more immediate power and a good dual stab, its priority is only really threatening boosted and quick attack has found more resists on HO so its not gonna be sweeping as much. The only main difference here is that those threats are better against HO, but it sill sugarcoats the fact that manaphy has numerous advantages going up against stall.
Azumarill still gets walled by tentacruel mega venu and has no way of getting past them.
You say that TG+RD breaks stall easier, but you're forgetting that you only have 2 coverage moves to break stall. If you carry psychic, yay, you get past amoonguss, but now you need support to break mlati, goodra, waters, celebi, tangrowth, I'm sure there are more i'm missing. Not to mention two entire turns to start doing anything christ you might as well just put leech seed and take 20% off yourself before you do anything lol.
I don't rly know how you keep tellin us how its "among the best balance breakers" when that wall of calcs pretty much showed you its the worst.
Misleading lmao. Are you serious?
First off, not all the pokemon i showed were even mega; diggersby, lando-T, breloom, guts heracross, terrakion, and crawdaunt (which can all hold your magical item just like manaphy can :O) are all shown, and are all around 1.5x stronger than manaphy. Idk why you're using the argument that "most things that survive can't do anything back." That's extremely idealistic and pretty much ignores even basic shit like ferro hitting you back with a power whip after it lives everything bar +3 hp fire.
On the other hand, why let things survive when you can just kill them with wallbreakers that are simply stronger :O Also, when i say it usually only runs leftiez, what's more important is that it rarely carries any items to boost its power, which was the point i was hoping to get across.
So these "glaring advantages" you talk about, its basically scald burns and bulk that gets no investment.
.....
I mean, ok, lets trade 50% of raw power over other wallbreakers for a little bit of bulk that's already shredded to bits simply by setting up.
Cool...
tbf you might even argue that manaphy has an easier time setting up due to its bulk, but the way I see it, other wallbreakers actually having initial power let them force pokemon out to set up; nothing fears an unboosted manaphy.
"narrow mindedly"
"in theory relies on base 80 move and 100 spa"
LOL this damage control is way too real
you tell me that mana wallbreaks better than A+ mons or w/e but all you've really shown is that manaphy is essentially 50% weaker than any other wallbreaker that can boost in the tier and only has scald a some bulk to show for it. I really don't think that makes up for much lol.
Saying it's a go to wallbreaker doesn't necessarily mean its a good wallbreaker, what it does gaurantee is that it has a lot of hype for it.
So basically your'e telling me you need to bring in manaphy 3 times to burn its check, let the burn actually whittle the check down, keep manaphy healthy enough to set up throughout all of this to set up later. To do its job properly, you've told me you need to bring manaphy safely in 4 times. Wow. 4 drought fire blasts, 4 pixilate hyper voices, 4 pure power high jump kicks, 4 tough claws flare blitzes, 4 specs scalds, 4 cb play roughs, 4 guts close combats, etc. Seems like a lot more damage to balance teams in the end to me.
Lol i didn't cherry pick at all i could have just as easily said specs slowking/tangrowth, or band azu/ttar, you get the idea. Anything strong.
Besides, I'd rather be prediction reliant that teammate reliant, atleast mega hera can hit everything it needs to hard enough that not much really walls it.
I mean weak was more of a comparative argument. Weak in general isn't really used to describe boosted pokemon, but when you put manaphy alongside boosted pokemon that becomes apparent. Setting up easily is nice, and having coverage to hit almost everything is nice, but you're still ultimately reliant on teammates to take out what you can't, weaken even what you can, and get free switch-ins to get CHANCES to scald burn your checks. It's really not an S rank mon, at all.
Yeah, its weaker than every other wallbreaker base stat-wise, ability-wise, base power of move-wise, reliant on coverage-wise....you know, everything that can contribute to a pokemon's damage output....
Your'e absolutely correct, offensive potential of Landorus, and pretty much every other wallbreaker i listed, far exceeds manaphy's, and manaphy is a higher rank than things that are 50% stronger than it because of its bulk (scald argument lol). Other things have plenty of cute coverage moves too, (and actually hit everything they need to with them), so I wouldn't say that's some big advantage manaphy has over other as well.
Essentially, manaphy is a higher rank because it trades 50% raw power for some bulk/typing which helps it set up a lot easier. The fact that it has zero immediate power, is extremely coverage dependent, and spikes prong/strong neutral hit prone like AM said, some of those are flaws that not even other wallbreakers have (ok most of them are dying to LO dracos as well but they're wallbreakers what can u do).
Not only that, atleast your +2 SD wallbreakers can destroy shit with their natural stabs, but manaphy on the other hand is ridiculously reliant on hitting things super effectively. A +3 timid scald actually doesn't even kill raikou without SR, I can assure you every other wallbreaker after a boost will have no troubles evaporating uninvested 90/100 bulk. I think we've been clouded by its variety of coverage and forgotten that it relies so much on it to get anywhere.
Is a loss in 50% power and some extra bulk really enough to bump manaphy to S rank despite all of the other wallbreakers in the tier having so much other shit over it? I don't
I mean i cant take it too seriously that you think those calcs are truly reflective that manaphy cant break balance effectively even without the raw power it lacks. It has better coverage than many of those other threats, and like i said those other nukes like char y garde have some GLARING flaws that limit their abilities against balance and stall even though they are obviously really good breakers, but they are already lower ranked than manaphy for fairly obvious reasons that come into play when you go into a real battle :like char y being pressured a lot by SR and getting walled to hell and back by chansey and av slowking on its one viable set (focus miss/ EQ fire blast solar beam roost (unless you're that guy that runs physical zard y), gardevoir that exploitable defense stat and the struggles it has with the steel types that dont care about focus miss just to name a few. Like i said those other threats like breeloom have some serious issues in breaking balance , raw power isn't everything, and if you think raw power is enough to think those are on the same level as manaphy then I'm not sure what to think, as it for one has no way of getting by common counters like mega venu ammongus mega alt just to name a few, and its weak to common flying priority and boasts an even lower speed tier. manaphy isn't a hit run breaker, its more of a sweeper since it boosts to +3 faster than everything else specially wise, but scald burns are a reality and those attacks still will break common balance cores quickly as you realize that manaphy's power is patched up pretty decently and it can now exploit the over advantages it has over the other breakers. Secondly, manaphy hardly needs coverage to beat stall with the tail glow rain dance set since it literally doesn't care about any status and will obliterate walls like chansey under rain. The extra coverage option fits the team if you need it, showing mana's versatility and options. the point is that at +3 manaphy can break most common checks with its coverage options, and yes its reliant on getting super effective hits... or are you gonna rely on neutral hits to break things that wall your stab? I mean the raikou example is not the best example, as raikou outspeeds and i think comes close to killing with thunderbolt so unless manaphy already got to +3 and killed something then raikou comes in, the fact it cant break raikou means nothing as raikou still doesnt exactly like switching in but it can with AV, and manaphy can switch out, making it a good revenge killer / check. So yea every pokemon has a revenge killer/ check, even the ones that got banned from the tier, nothing stopping the mons you want to revenge kill from switching out unless you you have shadow tag. And yes most things that can take a neutral+3 scald cant do anything back, as they are usually bulky or passive mons and manaphy has several advantages in dealing with them. and notice i protected my statement from any counter hyperbole by saying most things, ferrothorn is one of the few things that can check it assuming it doesn't have hp fire which shows how easily manaphy gets by that roadblock. Now dont get me wrong , the flaws you described are real , and yea manaphy isn't exactly the strongest S rank candidate atm. However its abilities are being downplayed, and in the absence of lando i i think its decent shot for Srank because of its coverage options, ability to carry the team by itself against most stall without taking up a mega slot and having some of the flaws of the other breakers. Its main flaw is against offense, which again its abilities are against are being downplayed too, and lack of immediate power. But like i said, being able to boost the fastest bar belly drum users , while also lacking the flaws of many other boosting breakers ( bar things like char x ) and lacking a reliable counter is what makes it stand out.
Saying Char x and manaphy are in the same rank is still hiding the point that both are candidates to S rank, and i would agree that if manaphy is promoted, zard x definitely has to be promoted.
Im gonna nom the actual mon who should be going to s rank...zard x
Everyone finally figured out that zard x rn is almost if not as good as he was in late x and y... most of its "counteea" aren't even really counters ..
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 229-271 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 132-156 (42.9 - 50.8%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
This mon doesn't have 4 mss and can run whatever works on your team the best... its amazing movepool (dd,sd,roost,dclaw,outrage,eq,flare,firepunch,sub) provides great coverage and can set up on many things at will.. IMO if anything mega zard x got EVEN BETTER in oras such few things can stop it after zard gets a dd off and zard has decent bulk also... and is one of the hardest mons to scout..
And Zard x is effective against ALL types of teams... In summary zard x is a broken offensive mon whos extremely hard to revenge
Yea i can agree with this nom. This pokemon is very deadly, and with the decline of lando T and the rise of bulk chomp metagame trends definitely have benefited char x. Its versatile, extremely powerful , great typing, and can get by all its roadblocks even with just the sheer power of outrage and flare blitz. When looking at all 3 of its sets (SD tailwind variants, bulky wow, and dragon dance) nothing is really safe, as even bulkier mega altarias dont like taking a +1 iron tail which is an option Zard x has in its arsenal although probably not the ideal move in the slot which has competition between roost and EQ. But yea the 4mss argument doesnt apply when its convenient right? Char x cant get by all its counters with just one set, if you dont have EQ u lose to heatran and without outrage lose to quag etc, but that doesnt mattter, because like manaphy it can get by them all.
Might as well give my thoughts on the current noms since I actually have the time to post now...
Zard x should be S. Seriously, this thing is a beast and for some reason people have just now (ie like 2 weeks ago) rediscovered how insane this thing actually is. It's power level is astounding, and it has the single best offensive typing in the game. The DD Set sweeps offense quite handily after just a little bit of support (such as weakening Lando t and tankchomp). It is also very potent against balance because it's typing and bulk enable it to setup against weaker fat ones and its power lets it plow through all but the bulkiest of walls (thing hippo and Slowbro). Those that do wall it can be taken care of by teammates, such as Serperior. SD is also amazing against pretty much everything bar straight offense because it nukes everything, including its normal counters such as hippo and even mega bro. Finally, the wisp set forgoes offensive prowess in exchange for luring in and crippling its usual c&cs, such as Azu, Malt, Hippo, etc, which opens up holes in opposing teams. It's few flaws, such as it's crippling sr weakness pre mega and being a mega on its own are thoroughly mitigated by its numerous positive traits, and it is easily on par with the other S rank Megas, being Malt and Gross.
Manaphy should stay A+. Unpopular opinion, but the hype train hasn't died down yet. Don't get me wrong, it's a great mon and is often one of my go to wallbreakers, but it's not on the level of other S rank mons. I think both sides have valid arguments, but both sides are also exaggerating them to make their side look more appealing. In reality, Manaphy is a mon with a million different coverage options that it can tailor towards what the team needs and can punch massive holes in defensive cores after it gets a boost. Before that, it struggles to even 2HKO a lot of things. And that's the problem. It needs a 2.5x boost to its special attack to pose a threat. While gaining that boost isn't terribly difficult, it's not insanely easy, either. Manaphy basically has to come in on a mon that can't do much to it, such as a fat ground or water (the latter of which it much be packing energy ball for). Otherwise it risks getting getting crippled to where revenge killing it is easy for anything faster than it, leaving it to one kill a match. It has bulk, but it's not like its gonna help it avoid being KOed after 20-30% prior damage that it takes while setting up. Manaphy simply doesn't have what it takes to stand up to the big boys (and girl) in the S rank, because while it excels against stall and certain balance teams, it is often lackluster when facing offense, and being unable to significantly threaten one of the most prominent playstyles does not scream S rank to me. Scald isn't saving it, either. If it doesn't get the first turn burn, you're not getting a second or third chance because Manaphy has better things to do than to fish for scald burns since it does not rely on them to get past its checks; rather, it uses its ability to quickly boost and its multiple coverage options to get past them. All in all, Manaphy is at home in A+ rank and I cannot see it in S rank without a significant shift in the meta that significantly hurts offense.
Although this hasn't been talked about in recent pages in leu of the Manaphy debate, mega Venu deserves A+ rank. It's ability to blanket check a significant portion of the meta and ease teambuilding easily mitigates this so-called thing of being easily worn down,when in reality a smartly played mega Venu will wall what it needs to and stay away from what it can't. Countering Azu, Keldeo, and Malt in one slot is a great trait to have, and that, in tandem with every other trait it possesses, is easily worthy of A+ in my eyes.
Ok, so this entire complete bullshit TG + RD or TG + CM argument was brought up because you mentioned Yawn Empoleon, an obscure check with an obscure move that stall really doesn't use. And even that loses to a manaphy set, which you admitted. Basically, Stall can't counter Manaphy. Simple as that. Next time you bring up another obscure check, remember that everything on stall loses to a manaphy set. The coverage is insane, and every mon you just listed loses to ice beam. You have to concede the fact that Manaphy beats everything on stall with the appropriate coverage move. Also, team support is a thing.
Uh, sure stall cant counter manaphy, but its not like it can run all of the sets at once. Every set has a different counter. If you want something else to be ridiculously biased for, ride the nonexistent hype wave of mega chomp, it ACTUALLY doesn't have any counters to just one set.
And don't discredit yawn empoleon lol it may be obscure but that has nothing to do with how viable it actually is, and i can assure you checking talonflame, azu, manaphy, altaria, clefable, diancie, setting rocks, and defogging them (though preferably not in the same set) all in one slot is nothing short of viable.
These magical wallbreakers you listed may have more power, but you are completely ignoring what makes them worse than Manaphy. When you say that they force switches, people aren't switching for the hell of it. There are mons that resist their STABs or just straight up OHKO them faster. For example, Hera straight up dies to Talonflame and virtually any faster bird type. So does SD toxic Loom. Diggersby and Lando-T's STABs forces switches into Skarmory, which doesn't give a fuck about either of them. Terrakion forces switches into a CB Scizor which will easily OHKO. And Crawdaunt dies to anything that can take a +2 Aqua Jet. Obviously, if the wallbreakers you listed were so much better than Manaphy, people would have realized it by now. You are over-exaggerating them so much that you might as well nom them for S Rank.
First off
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 159-187 (47.6 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
and fyi lando-T can use smack down followed by eq to knock out skarm (and rotom-w).
Second
252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 278-329 (89.3 - 105.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Was it fun?
Third
I already know your bitchass is gonna question 120 hp evs so I'll just tell you now that 120hp/252+atk/136speed lets you outpace max speed azu, which is a good benchmark.
Fourth
Youd' be surprised how much a hype wave can blind people from whats good and whats bad. How long did it take people to realize greninja was a monster? How long did people stick with trevenant before realizing it was absolute trash?
Fifth
I've already said that manaphy trades power for bulk, people use manaphy because they want bulk and other wallbreakers because they want power. I have shown calcs and raw numbers to objectively show that every wallbreaker i listed is roughly 50% stronger at +2 than manaphy is at +3. I have not talked about any other aspect of any of these wallbreakers other than their power and their stabs, which is also objective fact.
Where was i exaggerating? You just seem to be fond of personally attacking people who make better arguments :O
Are you kidding me? Does +6 in two turns mean anything to you? What about insane coverage? Is it now officially a rule that all wallbreakers have to invest in bulk? No.
Do numbers mean anything to you? It doesn't matter if manaphy is at +6, as long as its weaker than SD sweepers are at +4 then it ultimately still comparatively lacks power.
And I never said that wallbreakers should invest in bulk, I really don't know why you're pulling words out of your ass and stuffing them into my mouth. Please take them out, what's coming out of your mouth is disgusting enough.
Stop overhyping the 50%. Your entire argument is based on power and literally nothing else. If you want to write an argument on power, show us relevant calcs of these mons against their checks or counters. Maybe then the argument will actually have some merit. Once you determine how good a mon is against its checks and counters rather than against a random Mew, you determine how good it is against the current meta, also known as its viability.
Huh?
Keldeo has more checks than there are fucking stars in the sky, and that's across tiers, and yet keldeo was S rank at one point. Mega scizor, too, can be checked easily on any kind of team, and yet is it being nommed for S! Clefable has tons of checks and is S! The amount of checks and counters a mon has does not dictate its viability, although it does influence it.
And just whaddya know, some smart ass ballsack-gargling cavern-cunt always has to take my examples literally and point them out and then personally attack me sigh.
Lemme make this clear to all you fellow pube-lickers. Mew was merely a dummy-mon (if you will) to show the power of wallbreakers. It just as easily could've been shuckle, gloom, or any of the other nearly 800 fucking pokemon in this game.
You have to wonder, like I said above, what they are forcing pokemon out into. There is easily a hard stop to every wallbreaker you mentioned, but there is no hard stop on stall to Manaphy with its insane coverage other than fucking Yawn Empoleon. There is so much opportunity cost for every other wallbreaker you mentioned to set up than Manaphy. If you think Manaphy's power is overhyped, check the usefulness of your wallbreakers.
I mean, i could just post an mind-blowingly gigantic wall of calcs to prove you wrong for the most part (that's why they're wallbreakers), but you can also just eat your own fucking argument...
So basically,
you tell me manaphy is unstoppable
tell me i'm overhyping my wallbreakers even though i showed cold hard calcs
then ignore your own argument
Nice.
Manaphy is a go to wallbreaker for a reason lol. Once it starts sweeping stall, tell me what can stop it other than Yawn Empoleon. Power isn't the only measure of a wallbreaker, and Manaphy is top in all the other areas.
I mean, sure, you have this cool bulky mon with lots of utility options, great typing and ability, yada yada yada, but its just a good mon, not a good wallbreaker.
I'll get to the point. It's not the only thing, but it's the first thing you look for, and its the most important thing. What's a wallbreaker if its not strong?
Besides, I've already made it clear I simply want to keep manaphy out of S, and the things it does have over other wallbreakers, like bulk, and good coverage (which its reliant on oh well)
More evidence of bias and exaggeration. If you think that literally every wallbreaker is better than Manaphy, there is something wrong with you. Are you suggesting it should be down in B- Rank with Tangrowth? Bitch please......
I mean you must be illiterate at this point but I've already said in previous posts i simply want it to stay A+ and went on to outline pros of manaphy over other wallbreakers so lets stop wasting time on you.
Ah, the coverage argument. Yeah, if power bothers you so much, you can run Surf or even an Expert Belt. But coverage reliance is a great thing because it makes Manaphy hard to stop, unlike the wallbreakers above. bludz also covered this, so I really don't have to.
...
Here's a philosophical question:
How many times must it be shown that one does not read posts before the OP must legitimately wonder whether or not he is illiterate?
Lets move onto a nicer guy with better arguments :]
I mean i cant take it too seriously that you think those calcs are truly reflective that manaphy cant break balance effectively even without the raw power it lacks.
Whoa whoa whoa stop right there. I NEVER said it couldn't break balance, and if I did, then teh countless games i've played will prove me wrong. All the calc's showed was that manaphy isn't actually that strong, and nothing else.
And yes, I think those calcs are truly effective of manaphy's performance, because manaphy is a wallbreaker and power is the single most important thing to wallbreakers. Mana obv has several other perks, which put it at A+, but its ultimately a weak wallbreaker, which is just plain bad...
It has better coverage than many of those other threats,
Well coverage doesn't matter if you're too weak to use it. Coverage also doesn't matter if your stabs destroy everything regardless, which applies to "those other threats."
and like i said those other nukes like char y garde have some GLARING flaws that limit their abilities against balance and stall even though they are obviously really good breakers, but they are already lower ranked than manaphy for fairly obvious reasons that come into play when you go into a real battle :like char y being pressured a lot by SR and getting walled to hell and back by chansey and av slowking on its one viable set (focus miss/ EQ fire blast solar beam roost (unless you're that guy that runs physical zard y), gardevoir that exploitable defense stat and the struggles it has with the steel types that dont care about focus miss just to name a few.
Well char-y I will admit is down there but its coverage+ability to check some key threats like scizor+actual ability separate it. The flaws u listed are valid, and are one of the reasons char-y is lower anyway. But you still can't ignore char-y is just as strong as modest manaphy scald at +3, which is hilarious. mega gardevoir has other cool options like taunt, which can shut down walls entirely and let it beat some of its checks, cm, which plows through for obvious reasons (also MUCH stronger at +1 than mana is at +3) and wisp, which shuts down any steel that can take focus blast.
Again, the flaws u listed r valid, and they are the reason these pokemon are ranked where they are, but that's not the whole story.
Like i said those other threats like breeloom have some serious issues in breaking balance , raw power isn't everything, and if you think raw power is enough to think those are on the same level as manaphy then I'm not sure what to think, as it for one has no way of getting by common counters like mega venu ammongus mega alt just to name a few, and its weak to common flying priority and boasts an even lower speed tier.
+2 252+ Atk Breloom Facade (140 BP) vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 308-363 (100.3 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Breloom Facade (140 BP) vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 280-330 (77.9 - 91.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Breloom Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Amoonguss: 342-403 (79.1 - 93.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
And raw power is enough to be viable, maybe not on the same level as manaphy, but just look at pokemon like crawdaunt and diggersby. They really have nothing else but power and priority and yet they're really solid choices for their role and what they do.
manaphy isn't a hit run breaker, its more of a sweeper since it boosts to +3 faster than everything else specially wise, but scald burns are a reality and those attacks still will break common balance cores quickly as you realize that manaphy's power is patched up pretty decently and it can now exploit the over advantages it has over the other breakers.
Yeah I get that. That's why it's A+ in the first place. It's only "sweeping" a pretty specific type of team tho, balance teams without some strong neutral hit to revenge kill manaphy are rare and/or bad.
Secondly, manaphy hardly needs coverage to beat stall with the tail glow rain dance set since it literally doesn't care about any status and will obliterate walls like chansey under rain.
Idk man, i'd care if there was a fat fucking mvenu about to giga drain me and all I have to hit it with is ice beam which doesn't 2hko, even if i'm at +3! (mega venu shud run sdef, there's way more shit it needs to check on the special side, and can even counter gar with sdef evs and knock off)
The extra coverage option fits the team if you need it, showing mana's versatility and options. the point is that at +3 manaphy can break most common checks with its coverage options, and yes its reliant on getting super effective hits... or are you gonna rely on neutral hits to break things that wall your stab?
+2 252+ Atk Breloom Facade (140 BP) vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 308-363 (100.3 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Breloom Facade (140 BP) vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 280-330 (77.9 - 91.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Breloom Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Amoonguss: 342-403 (79.1 - 93.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 214-252 (54.3 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 646-761 (179.9 - 211.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (it's not even taking neutral safely)
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 423-498 (110.1 - 129.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 175-210 (44.4 - 53.2%) -- approx. 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 161-190 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 209-246 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Insert wall of +2 dragon pulse from serp calcs here +3 252 SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 192-227 (63.3 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Ofc not all of them run e-ball but sets like psychic/shadow ball rely on neutral coverage ot hit some stuff
Yes.
Most wallbreakers have stabs that are extremely difficult to wall anyways though.
I mean the raikou example is not the best example, as raikou outspeeds and i think comes close to killing with thunderbolt so unless manaphy already got to +3 and killed something then raikou comes in, the fact it cant break raikou means nothing as raikou still doesnt exactly like switching in but it can with AV, and manaphy can switch out, making it a good revenge killer / check.
Come on man you're the respectable opponent here you're not supposed to miss the point :<
My only point i was trying to prove with that example is that boosted manaphy with its STAB can't even kill a common offense mon.
And that's its not that strong.
Rly nothing else
...
So imma ignore what u say next
And yes most things that can take a neutral+3 scald cant do anything back, as they are usually bulky or passive mons and manaphy has several advantages in dealing with them.
You're right, but if you're switching in a pokemon into a wallbreaker that has boosted up and is firing its stab, and you don't resist, you generally are sacking it anyway. All of manaphy's TG checks resist water anyway so ur point is mostly irrelevant except that it makes setting up easier which we've already established.
and notice i protected my statement from any counter hyperbole by saying most things, ferrothorn is one of the few things that can check it assuming it doesn't have hp fire which shows how easily manaphy gets by that roadblock. Now dont get me wrong , the flaws you described are real , and yea manaphy isn't exactly the strongest S rank candidate atm. However its abilities are being downplayed, and in the absence of lando i i think its decent shot for Srank because of its coverage options, ability to carry the team by itself against most stall without taking up a mega slot and having some of the flaws of the other breakers.
Lol it relies on team support to remove the checks it does not beat with its own 3 coverage moves, that is not "carrying the team by itself," that is "being carried to even do your own job." If you were using SD mchomp, you could use that term, but manaphy is definitely not something you can say that for.
Its main flaw is against offense, which again its abilities are against are being downplayed too, and lack of immediate power. But like i said, being able to boost the fastest bar belly drum users , while also lacking the flaws of many other boosting breakers ( bar things like char x ) and lacking a reliable counter is what makes it stand out.
As i've said several times the speed of its boosting hardly matters when its 50% weaker than other wallbreakers even with an extra stage on them.
But the rest of what you've said is valid, and is why manaphy has been and should stay A+
Yea i can agree with this nom. This pokemon is very deadly, and with the decline of lando T and the rise of bulk chomp metagame trends definitely have benefited char x. Its versatile, extremely powerful , great typing, and can get by all its roadblocks even with just the sheer power of outrage and flare blitz. When looking at all 3 of its sets (SD tailwind variants, bulky wow, and dragon dance) nothing is really safe, as even bulkier mega altarias dont like taking a +1 iron tail which is an option Zard x has in its arsenal although probably not the ideal move in the slot which has competition between roost and EQ. But yea the 4mss argument doesnt apply when its convenient right? Char x cant get by all its counters with just one set, if you dont have EQ u lose to heatran and without outrage lose to quag etc, but that doesnt mattter, because like manaphy it can get by them all.
+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 273-321 (70.9 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
But yea the 4mss argument doesnt apply when its convenient right?
Nope he just knows his shit and knows how to use a calc before posting.
Besides, its not like tailwind is your only 4th slot on SD, you can definitely just run eq or aforementioned iron tail instead. so yes, with flare blitz/outrage/eq/SD, it DOES get by all it counters :3
+2 252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Altaria: 162-191 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
You're emphasizing Manaphy's flaws to the point that seems more appropriate in asking for a drop than saying it should stay the same rank and this signifies to me that your arguments are exaggerated.
Man I sure have typed out quite a bit today but I feel like some personal attacks deserve a little more outta me.
Uh, sure stall cant counter manaphy, but its not like it can run all of the sets at once. Every set has a different counter. If you want something else to be ridiculously biased for, ride the nonexistent hype wave of mega chomp, it ACTUALLY doesn't have any counters to just one set.
And don't discredit yawn empoleon lol it may be obscure but that has nothing to do with how viable it actually is, and i can assure you checking talonflame, azu, manaphy, altaria, clefable, diancie, setting rocks, and defogging them (though preferably not in the same set) all in one slot is nothing short of viable.
First off
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 159-187 (47.6 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
and fyi lando-T can use smack down followed by eq to knock out skarm (and rotom-w).
Second
252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 278-329 (89.3 - 105.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Was it fun?
Third
I already know your bitchass is gonna question 120 hp evs so I'll just tell you now that 120hp/252+atk/136speed lets you outpace max speed azu, which is a good benchmark.
Fourth
Youd' be surprised how much a hype wave can blind people from whats good and whats bad. How long did it take people to realize greninja was a monster? How long did people stick with trevenant before realizing it was absolute trash?
Fifth
I've already said that manaphy trades power for bulk, people use manaphy because they want bulk and other wallbreakers because they want power. I have shown calcs and raw numbers to objectively show that every wallbreaker i listed is roughly 50% stronger at +2 than manaphy is at +3. I have not talked about any other aspect of any of these wallbreakers other than their power and their stabs, which is also objective fact.
Where was i exaggerating? You just seem to be fond of personally attacking people who make better arguments :O
Do numbers mean anything to you? It doesn't matter if manaphy is at +6, as long as its weaker than SD sweepers are at +4 then it ultimately still comparatively lacks power.
And I never said that wallbreakers should invest in bulk, I really don't know why you're pulling words out of your ass and stuffing them into my mouth. Please take them out, what's coming out of your mouth is disgusting enough.
Huh?
Keldeo has more checks than there are fucking stars in the sky, and that's across tiers, and yet keldeo was S rank at one point. Mega scizor, too, can be checked easily on any kind of team, and yet is it being nommed for S! Clefable has tons of checks and is S! The amount of checks and counters a mon has does not dictate its viability, although it does influence it.
And just whaddya know, some smart ass ballsack-gargling cavern-cunt always has to take my examples literally and point them out and then personally attack me sigh.
Lemme make this clear to all you fellow pube-lickers. Mew was merely a dummy-mon (if you will) to show the power of wallbreakers. It just as easily could've been shuckle, gloom, or any of the other nearly 800 fucking pokemon in this game.
I mean, i could just post an mind-blowingly gigantic wall of calcs to prove you wrong for the most part (that's why they're wallbreakers), but you can also just eat your own fucking argument...
So basically,
you tell me manaphy is unstoppable
tell me i'm overhyping my wallbreakers even though i showed cold hard calcs
then ignore your own argument
Nice.
I mean, sure, you have this cool bulky mon with lots of utility options, great typing and ability, yada yada yada, but its just a good mon, not a good wallbreaker.
I'll get to the point. It's not the only thing, but it's the first thing you look for, and its the most important thing. What's a wallbreaker if its not strong?
Besides, I've already made it clear I simply want to keep manaphy out of S, and the things it does have over other wallbreakers, like bulk, and good coverage (which its reliant on oh well)
I mean you must be illiterate at this point but I've already said in previous posts i simply want it to stay A+ and went on to outline pros of manaphy over other wallbreakers so lets stop wasting time on you.
...
Here's a philosophical question:
How many times must it be shown that one does not read posts before the OP must legitimately wonder whether or not he is illiterate?
Lets move onto a nicer guy with better arguments :]
Whoa whoa whoa stop right there. I NEVER said it couldn't break balance, and if I did, then teh countless games i've played will prove me wrong. All the calc's showed was that manaphy isn't actually that strong, and nothing else.
And yes, I think those calcs are truly effective of manaphy's performance, because manaphy is a wallbreaker and power is the single most important thing to wallbreakers. Mana obv has several other perks, which put it at A+, but its ultimately a weak wallbreaker, which is just plain bad...
Well coverage doesn't matter if you're too weak to use it. Coverage also doesn't matter if your stabs destroy everything regardless, which applies to "those other threats."
Well char-y I will admit is down there but its coverage+ability to check some key threats like scizor+actual ability separate it. The flaws u listed are valid, and are one of the reasons char-y is lower anyway. But you still can't ignore char-y is just as strong as modest manaphy scald at +3, which is hilarious. mega gardevoir has other cool options like taunt, which can shut down walls entirely and let it beat some of its checks, cm, which plows through for obvious reasons (also MUCH stronger at +1 than mana is at +3) and wisp, which shuts down any steel that can take focus blast.
Again, the flaws u listed r valid, and they are the reason these pokemon are ranked where they are, but that's not the whole story.
+2 252+ Atk Breloom Facade (140 BP) vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 308-363 (100.3 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Breloom Facade (140 BP) vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 280-330 (77.9 - 91.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Breloom Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Amoonguss: 342-403 (79.1 - 93.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
And raw power is enough to be viable, maybe not on the same level as manaphy, but just look at pokemon like crawdaunt and diggersby. They really have nothing else but power and priority and yet they're really solid choices for their role and what they do.
Yeah I get that. That's why it's A+ in the first place. It's only "sweeping" a pretty specific type of team tho, balance teams without some strong neutral hit to revenge kill manaphy are rare and/or bad.
Idk man, i'd care if there was a fat fucking mvenu about to giga drain me and all I have to hit it with is ice beam which doesn't 2hko, even if i'm at +3! (mega venu shud run sdef, there's way more shit it needs to check on the special side, and can even counter gar with sdef evs and knock off)
+2 252+ Atk Breloom Facade (140 BP) vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 308-363 (100.3 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Breloom Facade (140 BP) vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 280-330 (77.9 - 91.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Breloom Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Amoonguss: 342-403 (79.1 - 93.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 214-252 (54.3 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 646-761 (179.9 - 211.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (it's not even taking neutral safely)
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 423-498 (110.1 - 129.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 175-210 (44.4 - 53.2%) -- approx. 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 161-190 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 209-246 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Insert wall of +2 dragon pulse from serp calcs here +3 252 SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 192-227 (63.3 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Ofc not all of them run e-ball but sets like psychic/shadow ball rely on neutral coverage ot hit some stuff
Yes.
Most wallbreakers have stabs that are extremely difficult to wall anyways though.
Come on man you're the respectable opponent here you're not supposed to miss the point :<
My only point i was trying to prove with that example is that boosted manaphy with its STAB can't even kill a common offense mon.
And that's its not that strong.
Rly nothing else
...
So imma ignore what u say next
You're right, but if you're switching in a pokemon into a wallbreaker that has boosted up and is firing its stab, and you don't resist, you generally are sacking it anyway. All of manaphy's TG checks resist water anyway so ur point is mostly irrelevant except that it makes setting up easier which we've already established.
Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa.
Lol it relies on team support to remove the checks it does not beat with its own 3 coverage moves, that is not "carrying the team by itself," that is "being carried to even do your own job." If you were using SD mchomp, you could use that term, but manaphy is definitely not something you can say that for.
As i've said several times the speed of its boosting hardly matters when its 50% weaker than other wallbreakers even with an extra stage on them.
But the rest of what you've said is valid, and is why manaphy has been and should stay A+
+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 273-321 (70.9 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Nope he just knows his shit and knows how to use a calc before posting.
Besides, its not like tailwind is your only 4th slot on SD, you can definitely just run eq or aforementioned iron tail instead. so yes, with flare blitz/outrage/eq/SD, it DOES get by all it counters :3
+2 252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Altaria: 162-191 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
That's completely your interpretation and entirely subjective. I've made it clear that I want it to stay A+ too, several times.
EDIT: Holy fuck this ones a long one. I don't blame y'all if u dont read this.
Well fair enough , I dont have much more objections to the other points, i think your arguments were made clearer this time. But I still think that with lando I gone ,manaphy deserved a closer look. Regarding breloom, never really saw anyone use facade but its a valid calc, and that seems it would be limited to a poison heal set which as far i as know hasn't been common. But it was just an example , the char y comparison is more accurate for what i wanted to depict, and still breloom has a host of other flaws that i know you are aware of as you clarified so no need to go into detail on that. And manaphy's tail glow rain dance set does carry the team against stall, just not balance because it lacks at minimum one coverage move against things like mega Lati which appear more commonly on balance. So yea it cant break balance and stall with equal effectiveness depending on the set, tail glow 3 attacks carries the team better against balance of course.
I stand corrected on Zard x, and yea you may have clarified that particular set doesnt have counters, but he didnt in his post , and implied that no matter what char x runs, ddance set bulky wisp set it can get by all its counters. He may have meant this, but he didn't word his statement correctly within the context of the calcs he used. So the credit goes to you for explaining it properly and detailing that that very specific set gets by all traditional counters. His exact words :"This mon doesn't have 4 mss and can run whatever works on your team the best... its amazing movepool (dd,sd,roost,dclaw,outrage,eq,flare,firepunch,sub) provides great coverage and can set up on many things at will"
Further, Zard X typically doesnt run the SD set as often, let alone without tailwind, as the it does have some flaws and requires more team support due to the liabilities outrage and flare blitz bring especially without recovery. But its perfectly viable. So the SD set it can get by heatran after a boost with outrage, but its not that easy to do on ddance set which runs dragon claw 100 percent of the time, so these ddance sets have the purported "4mss" that he tried to hide, which still doesnt matter as i said because zard x just runs the coverage that bests fits the team, and is something that puts it over many other mons who lack the power/ coverage to dent their common answers. And just know that this isn't cut and dry as it seems as a requirement for S rank, as even landorus I didn't have a set that got by everything in 4 attacks ( and it was still always walled by cresselia and mega latias no matter what). But the same can be said for manaphy, except its ability to get over its usual checks and counters is spread over two of its sets, and doesn't have one individual set that gets by all the threats at once . And that's why i said charx is a stronger candidate for S rank in that regard since it shares many other similar and stronger traits than manaphy when it comes to raw power ( and of course being stronger against offense thanks to boosting) but it still has flaws like flare blitz recoil and SR and more susceptible to status (bar will o wisp) when comparing it to manaphies rain dance stall -breaking set. Whether manaphy goes to S rank will depend on if manaphy's presence against stall and balance teams in the absence of lando i is seen by the committee as enough to override its mediocrity against offense , given its advantages over the other wallbreakers , many of which its already ranked above. So yea, because of what you said, i would be understanding if it remained A +, since its a matter of discerning that manaphy doesn't have enough positive traits to make it jump an even further rank.
Might as well give my thoughts on the current noms since I actually have the time to post now...
Zard x should be S. Seriously, this thing is a beast and for some reason people have just now (ie like 2 weeks ago) rediscovered how insane this thing actually is. It's power level is astounding, and it has the single best offensive typing in the game. The DD Set sweeps offense quite handily after just a little bit of support (such as weakening Lando t and tankchomp). It is also very potent against balance because it's typing and bulk enable it to setup against weaker fat ones and its power lets it plow through all but the bulkiest of walls (thing hippo and Slowbro). Those that do wall it can be taken care of by teammates, such as Serperior. SD is also amazing against pretty much everything bar straight offense because it nukes everything, including its normal counters such as hippo and even mega bro. Finally, the wisp set forgoes offensive prowess in exchange for luring in and crippling its usual c&cs, such as Azu, Malt, Hippo, etc, which opens up holes in opposing teams. It's few flaws, such as it's crippling sr weakness pre mega and being a mega on its own are thoroughly mitigated by its numerous positive traits, and it is easily on par with the other S rank Megas, being Malt and Gross.
Manaphy should stay A+. Unpopular opinion, but the hype train hasn't died down yet. Don't get me wrong, it's a great mon and is often one of my go to wallbreakers, but it's not on the level of other S rank mons. I think both sides have valid arguments, but both sides are also exaggerating them to make their side look more appealing. In reality, Manaphy is a mon with a million different coverage options that it can tailor towards what the team needs and can punch massive holes in defensive cores after it gets a boost. Before that, it struggles to even 2HKO a lot of things. And that's the problem. It needs a 2.5x boost to its special attack to pose a threat. While gaining that boost isn't terribly difficult, it's not insanely easy, either. Manaphy basically has to come in on a mon that can't do much to it, such as a fat ground or water (the latter of which it much be packing energy ball for). Otherwise it risks getting getting crippled to where revenge killing it is easy for anything faster than it, leaving it to one kill a match. It has bulk, but it's not like its gonna help it avoid being KOed after 20-30% prior damage that it takes while setting up. Manaphy simply doesn't have what it takes to stand up to the big boys (and girl) in the S rank, because while it excels against stall and certain balance teams, it is often lackluster when facing offense, and being unable to significantly threaten one of the most prominent playstyles does not scream S rank to me. Scald isn't saving it, either. If it doesn't get the first turn burn, you're not getting a second or third chance because Manaphy has better things to do than to fish for scald burns since it does not rely on them to get past its checks; rather, it uses its ability to quickly boost and its multiple coverage options to get past them. All in all, Manaphy is at home in A+ rank and I cannot see it in S rank without a significant shift in the meta that significantly hurts offense.
Although this hasn't been talked about in recent pages in leu of the Manaphy debate, mega Venu deserves A+ rank. It's ability to blanket check a significant portion of the meta and ease teambuilding easily mitigates this so-called thing of being easily worn down,when in reality a smartly played mega Venu will wall what it needs to and stay away from what it can't. Countering Azu, Keldeo, and Malt in one slot is a great trait to have, and that, in tandem with every other trait it possesses, is easily worthy of A+ in my eyes.
Regarding mega venusuaur, It definitely has the bulk to handle the threats it wants to and is very good blanket check and defensive glue mon, as even offensive variants still maintain great bulk on both defensive spectrums thanks to thick fact. I am neutral on mega venu atm, but I can tell you that most people who want to keep it A is because of longetivity and certain metagame trends. With that said, vensuaur as you know commonly switches into water types (cough cough keldeo), but hax or not scald burns are a reality. In a meta dominated by Stealth rock and spikes and the popularity of sand, venusaur finds itself constantly pressured, as it only gets 8 synthesis, and in sand synthesis doesnt recover as much hp further pressurng it, since it cant carry lefties like ammongus and has to give up momentum with its short lived healing. Not to mention bird spam will always be a problem for it especially with the rise of tornadus T, and metagross certainly makes it hard for venu to do its job.
For manaphy Yea i can see it staying A + but a part of me sees it in S.
