Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V5 (See Page 43 - Post #1063)

Looks like Magneton is going to be the new MegaCham here pretty shortly.

The recent Kyurem-B talk has my attention, however. As much as I feel bad for Kyurem being considered one of the worst Legendaries (I have seen people that treat this with less respect than Regigigas--no lie), I have to saw that the meta change hasn't been the best for it. The recent trend seems to be towards Bulky Sand and Steel-Types, the latter especially giving Kyurem-B problems, as well as its original problems like Stealth Rock being absolutely prevalent.

Offensive Landorus-T has this to back its power up and has the Speed to outspeed any variant of Kyurem-B bar Choice Scarf.

252 Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 264-312 (67.5 - 79.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Offensive Garchomp outspeeds Kyurem-B and has this to throw in:

252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 290-344 (74.1 - 87.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Outside a Sandstorm, Kyurem-B will outspeed and OHKO Excadrill. In one, however, Excadrill will outspeed and OHKO Kyurem-B.

Heatran is out of the question since most Kyurem-B enjoy carrying Earth Power.

Azumarill cannot switch in or stay in since almost every variant of Kyurem-B runs Fusion Bolt, a guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rock.

Short of the Choice Band set, Clefable is mostly a safe answer, being able to heal off Ice Beam relative easily and 2HKOing with Moonblast.

Mega Scizor, a Pokemon rampant like its original counterpart in Gen 4 and 5, is just as much trouble for Kyurem-B, if not more so thanks to its increased bulk. Some variants run Hidden Power Fire, but those are pretty rare and mostly confined into the Choice Specs set.

Latios is a fantastic revenge killer, OHKOing easily with Draco Meteor, though it must watch out for Ice Beam and any Dragon-Type move.

Mega Diancie can easily outspeed and KO any Non-Choice Scarf variant, but has almost no way to safely switch in; Earth Power is a clean OHKO and Ice Beam?

252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Diancie: 204-242 (84.6 - 100.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Keldeo is absolutely destroyed by Fusion Bolt but can OHKO with Secret Sword after Stealth Rock.

The once safe Rotom-W with its high and mighty Levitate is removed from its throne thanks to Teravolt.

252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 250-296 (82.5 - 97.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Tornadus-T will outspeed and 2HKO easily, but Kyurem-B can do the same back with Ice Beam (after Stealth Rock) and Fusion Bolt.

Choice Scarf Tyranitar outspeeds and OHKOs with Stone Edge after Stealth Rock, though it loses more than half from Earth Power.

Ferrothorn can OHKO Kyurem-B after Stealth Rock, barely avoiding the 2HKO from Ice Beam.

Manaphy may outspeed it, but...

4 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 296-351 (86.8 - 102.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Don't switch in.

Calm Mind Slowbro is a decent answer, even avoiding the 2HKO from Earth Power and Fusion Bolt thanks to Slack Off.

Base Slowbro, on the other hand, is decimated and 2HKOd.

Talonflame would never want to switch in on Kyurem-B--hell, Acrobatics only does 40.9% minimum, but it IS a 2HKO after Stealth Rock.

Weavile's Low Kick can OHKO after Stealth Rock, but so can Kyurem-B's Fusion Bolt.

Even Mega Sableye falls in two Ice Beams after Stealth Rock.

Amoonguss and Quagsire dare not try to switch in; Amoonguss's weakness to Ice Beam hinders it, and Quagsire is 2HKOd by Ice Beam regardless.


Just from the above examples, Kyurem-B seems to maintain a severe lack of counters, which was always boasted before this Gen. However, Mega Slowbro and Mega Scizor has risen and have been proven to be top checks for it. On another note, Kyurem-B's over reliance on Life Orb with its most popular set hinders its lastability, even with Roost, thanks to Sandstorm being ever so popular. Finally, as mentioned above, Kyurem-B is very weak to Revenge Killing, even more so than MegaCham (no, I'm not saying which is better, but I wanted to draw a similarity between relevant wallbreakers). Many Pokemon will easily outspeed and KO Kyurem-B on the spot, particularly popular Pokemon like Landorus-T, Excadrill, Latios, Mega Scizor, Mega Diancie, Keldeo, Choice Scarf Tyranitar, Ferrothorn (on the OHKO part), Manaphy, and Weavile just to name some popular choices for teams. Kyurem-B's claim to fame is that it makes the next turn a prediction that will lead one side to victory. It makes the opponent guess which set it is and which move it will use. "Do I switch in Clefable hoping it's the Life Orb set?" "Do I predict Earth Power and switch into Landorus-T?" "Will it outspeed Tornadus-T with Choice Scarf?" These are scenarios that we are all familiar with, but we never, without a doubt, forgot about the titan of power that is Kyurem-B.

There is, however, a huge problem; though Kyurem-B can prevent switch ins very easily, somewhat ironically, it has difficulty switching in. Firstly, the Stealth Rock weakness is irritating, taking down some of its capabilities by 25% of its HP. Secondly, despite its bulk, its typing leaves it open to multiple attacks like Stone Edge, Iron Head/Bullet Punch, Draco Meteor/Outrage, Focus Blast/Close Combat, and Play Rough/Moonblast, all of which are somewhere in the metagame and there hardcore thanks to Landorus-T, Excadrill, Scizor, Latios, Garchomp, Clefable, Azumarill, and anything that likes Fight-Coverage like Alakazam (because Focus Miss is one of the biggest coverage moves since Hidden Power, apparently). Most of the Pokemon I just listed are extremely prevalent in this meta, which hinders its job more than ever. Finally, as mentioned before, the ease of Revenge Killing might be the biggest killer for it. Won't repeat that one.

Though Kyurem-B is a fantastic wallbreaker that even puts Stall under pressure like no other, it cannot go without saying that Kyurem-B's flaws are very huge and the meta hasn't been very kind to it. I'm going to oppose the rise for now.
 

zbr

rendered asunder
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
maaan. wall of texts that give people headaches. can't yall tl;dr it?

magneton is genuinely shit. the only reason you would use it is basically just because you have nothing to outpace torn , weav , zam , talon and whatnot, and even then i'd rather just use a combination of mons. comparing scarf zone to it is even worse simply because scarf zone is shit as well. is there a need to push something that doesn't even do well in the tier now up ? if i wanted a trapper to kill sciz / ferro / skarm i'd use specszone. that's it. there's nothing to think about it. if your team is abysmally weak to mons that are faster than base 110 and you need to use ton as your trapper cum scarfer then idk man you gotta revamp your team up. yall can do the math all you want. 5% more this , 11% more that but ultimately, it's never as good as those in c rank who are capable of doing their jobs much better and are not just some glorified role compressed mon. keep magneton where it's at pls and let's move on.
 
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maaan. wall of texts that give people headaches. can't yall tl;dr it?

magneton is genuinely shit. the only reason you would use it is basically just because you have nothing to outpace torn , weav , zam , talon and whatnot, and even then i'd rather just use a combination of mons. comparing scarf zone to it is even worse simply because scarf zone is shit as well. is there a need to push something that doesn't even do well in the tier now up ? if i wanted a trapper to kill sciz / ferro / skarm i'd use specszone. that's it. there's nothing to think about it. if your team is abmysally weak to mons that are faster than base 110 and you need to use ton as your trapper cum scarfer then idk man you gotta revamp your team up. yall can do the math all you want. 5% more this , 11% more that but ultimately, it's never as good as those in c rank who are capable of doing their jobs much better and are not just some glorified role compressed mon. keep magneton where it's at pls and let's move on.




I agree. Magneton is one of those Pokemon that should be used in certain situations.
 
Thats all I have to say, I have experienced Kyurem-Black from both sides and I don't think B+ is where it belongs with Pokemon Such as Nidoking and Tangrowth. Thank you :).
Tbh id rate Nidoking higher than k-black as it doesn't have to run mixed it take no life orb damage it not weak to rocks and it has better coverage it not wall by clefable or scizor on top of that it stab coverage it is almost godly and it is a good clefable switch in and resist fairy and it cant be thunder waved and isnt as bother by burn.

There are some down side to Nido like it doesn't get recovery but over all id say Nido is better. that just my opinion though.
 
Ok so when talking about Kube this is the set I'll be using since it's the best IMO and it gives him the best combination of coverage and self-sustain possible:


Ice Cube (Kyurem-Black) @ Life Orb
Ability: Teravolt
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 16 Atk / 252 SpA / 240 Spe
Mild Nature
- Ice Beam
- Fusion Bolt
- Roost
- Hidden Power [Fire]

This set runs HP Fire > Earth Power as while it does lose coverage on Heatran it allows Kyurem to hit Ferro and Scizor for massive damage which is vitally important (not to mention that Fusion Bolt does over 30% to Tran on the switch so it's not hard to wear Tran down over the course of it switching in, and also most people won't switch Tran in on Kyurem in the first place expecting it to have EP). What this really does for Kyurem is give it the best match-up against Sand as possible. Kyurem has always been a pain for Sand teams to switch-into but with HP Fire on its side Kube practically gets a kill everytime it gets in safely. The only common things that can switch-in on this set more than once are Heatran and Clef, and neither are that great of options for Sand teams (Heatran compounds Sand's water weakness and Clef doesn't offer as much defensive utility as Scizor or Ferro) as well as defensive TTar but the support set Smogon uses (a bulky TTar has to be heavily invested in SpDef in order to not get 3hko'd by Kyurem) isn't really the best set IMO as Band of Scarf offer a lot more offensive utility and it isn't hard to fit a rocker onto Sand teams especially when Ferrothorn is so good on them. In essence you have a wallbreaker that basically 6-0's the most common archetype around, which is pretty incredible.

Now that we have a reference for what makes Kyurem so good (something I don't think anyone else in here has touched on properly) we need to keep its weaknesses in mind (which I won't mention cuz everyone else in here described its weaknesses well) and discuss the pokemon that Kyurem currently shares a rank with and what it would be with in A-. I'll be blunt, as much as I love Ice Cube, it's nowhere close to threatening mons like Metagross, Starmie, or Bisharp, as each have better utility and/or speed (or in Bisharp's case, ways to circumvent its speed). With B+, I think that it's pretty comparable to Nidoking; both are super powerful wallbreakers with stellar coverage options, but they are offset by their low speed, lack of a good defensive typing (tho each can make use of it in some ways), and the fact that no matter what coverage they run, there's always gonna be at least one or two things that can comfortably take them on.

TL;DR Kube can be a major threat to Sand teams, but it has a whole slew of problems and doesn't have nearly as much going for it as many of the mons in A- do, with it fitting better in B+ with options like Nidoking. Keep Kyurem-Black B+.
 
Gyarados to B+, no let's move it A-! I'm not mad, or mentaly ill, or whatever. I seriously think that regular Gyarados is better and overall more viable than it's mega counterpart. I'm talking about McMeghan set.
Gyarados @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 72 HP / 188 Atk / 248 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Bounce
- Waterfall
- Rest



Matchup against sand. For that only reason Gyarados should be bring up. Weakness of sand is doubling water weakness so most people prepare for strongest water type in tier - Keldeo. So usually with sand you will see Tangrowth, Amoongus, Latios, Torn-t. All of them dies to +1 Gyra with STAB coverage, or needs minimum damage to get into OHKO range.

Rotom isn't that common on sand team due to it can be OHKO by Focus Blast Keldeo.

I'm aware that every Excadrill nowadays carry rock slide but there is no way to bring Excadrill safe on Gyarados. You have to sack something and pay attention that Gyarados can just switch out.

Sheer bulk and great typing. Only electric and rock type hits you for supper effective damage and with bulk of 95/79/100 neutral damage won't OHKO you. And the best part is when Mega Scizor player realizes that his best thing to hit you is "Fake you" in chat. Nowadays no scizor carrys movet do deal even neutral damage! Keldeo is also set up folder because with this set you can just rest the burn and sweep.

Is easy to support. Yeah, offensive heatran with solar beam is more than enough to remove all possible Gyarados stoppers (especially rotom and slowbro). There are other mons that easily removes potential counters like Alakazam, Heracross, Gardevoir, Latios.

And after that you still have your mega slot so you can pick things like Mega Alakazam and destroy sand even more!

Replays showin' what's good (all should be from 1700s or close, however I have even more from 1500s from this and other alts)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-402524480
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-402514582
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-402605166
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-407482896
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-407587749

Gyarados have bad reputation right now and you can see that all those guys didn't consider Gyarados as major thread. Tey recklessly sacked their counters early (or they did not have any) and get just destroyed.

EDIT: I'm turning into wishkiller by using same team over and over and over again... ;_;
 
That set has been standard for awhile and A- is really high for gyarados, those replays just show how people dont prep for dragon dancers that well not exclusive to gyarados. B+ would be alright but id rather wait for an update before nomming stuff now since its all pretty convulted and a lot of stuff can/should be moved around.
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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I think Tangrowth in A- makes more sense than Amoonguss tbh. While Amoonguss is arguably more splashable because of its better overall bulk and defensive typing, the big advantage Tangrowth has over Amoonguss which is absolutely huge in the current metagame, is an offensive presence. Amoonguss isn't the most passive Pokemon in the tier at all, but it's still really easy to switch something into it outside of Spore, and it can cause you to lose a ton of momentum. Tangrowth has much higher offensive stats which keeps things from mindlessly switching into it, and with options such as EQ for Heatran, Leaf Storm, Knock Off and Sleep Powder it still has a ton of utility. Phys Def Rocky Helm is just so good at checking most of the physical attackers in the tier, as well as punishing them which is pretty huge, because it prevents Scarf Lando-T from just spamming U-turn without repercussion. It's just a much more consistent Lando-T check in general thanks to its resistance to EQ, so SD variants can't really muscle through it as easily as Amoonguss.

I think one of the other big issues with Amoonguss is that while it's pretty fat overall, it can be easily overwhelmed because neither one of its defensive stats are that stellar. While Tangrowth has ass SpD, you can depend on it to check most of the physical attackers found in the tier, mainly Terrakion, Lando-T, SD Chomp, Tyranitar, Azumarill, Mega Lopunny, Mega Metagross, Gliscor, Excadrill, and even Mega Scizor to an extent just watch out for Bug Bite. Assault Vest isn't nearly as good as it used to be, but it's still viable and has plenty of defensive merit. I just think Tangrowth's higher consistency in checking what it wants to check as well as a much higher offensive presence in a metagame where passive Pokemon are a very easy to punish, puts Tangrowth in a better position than Amoonguss on a viability standpoint. Amoonguss is good don't get me wrong, but Tangrowth just seems to have more usefulness atm, so it should be a rank above it.
 
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p2

Banned deucer.
nomming alomomola up further to b.

it's really good in the meta right now in that it pretty much walls literally everything in existance, and unlike slowbro/jellicent/whatever, it doesn't keel over to dark types commonly paired with mega lop and mega medi, making it a solid answer to the dark types and the hjk deterrence when it's in (which is a pretty huge thing if you ask me) is really good too because it helps prevent mmedi from going ham on teams because there's always the risk of double protects and other nonsense which make it annoying to beat alomomola. it's also really easy to deal with its counters: electrics are on a decline and they're easily dealt with, usually by ttar which can trap them and remove them. grass types can be covered by most steel types which love the wish support and anti fire support that alo provides, while amoonguss also works very nicely too.

i think it's pretty insane how it can take some of the strongest attacks in the meta and proceed to shrug it off over the course of the game with regenerator + solid enough recovery.

it's passive as unholy hell, but most of its good offensive answers, mainly sub users like keldeo are nowhere to be seen and alo just scald burns everything else lol.

wcop / pocl replays: 1, 2, 3
 
Nominating Rachi to A.
rachi.gif


Jirachi has become more and more of a common presence on a plethora of teams, simply because of its usefulness. It is ranked 9th in usage in WCoP, so that's something. Its versatility, insane movepool, coupled with its very good typing and solid stats lets it become an incredibly useful pokemon.

The amount of shit it does, and all of it really well, is staggering. First and foremost, it's movepool. Stealth Rock, U-Turn, I/F/T Punch, Healing Wish, Wish, and Iron Head's 100% 60% flinch rate are all completely viable, threatening options that every team needs, and can provide immense utility at any part of the battle.

The SpDef set walls a ton of common threats, like Lati, Diancie, and Clef, as well as packing options such as Wish/Tect or Rocks.

The Scarf set is an incredibly useful pivot and late game cleaner because it out speeds a bunch of stuff that annoys offense. It also has access to 2 incredibly spammy moves in U-Turn and Iron Head.

Even it's lure set, which destroys its common switchins like Chomp, Lando, Slowbro, and Heatran is a threat to be reckoned for.

I see Rachi as a pokemon you can toss on to nearly any team, regardless of archetype, and get away with it because of its role compression and unpredictability. I can easily see it among the ranks of pokemon in A.

So yeah. Rachi to A.

ps. first time poster, so tell me if i did something wrong lol

-Siinistre
 

MegaStarUniverse

Banned deucer.
Tangrowth B+ -> A-

this thing is amazing. Its a very good physical wall that can handle M-Metagross , M-lopunny, Landorus-T, Terrakion , Tyranitar and a lot of physical attackers in OU. it has offensive pressure unlike Amoonguss. Tangrowth has options available to Sleep powder , earthquake , Knock off , Sludge Bomb , hidden powers etc and also has a nice ground Resist which Amoonguss does not have being able to counter Landorus-T and excadrill pretty nicely.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-410865536 - [Turns 24 - 29]. Tangrowth puts Latios to sleep , Leech seeds M-Scizor and knocks off Latios down to 2% leaving it to die to rocks when it comes back in. and winning me the game.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-180174 - [turn 9] Tangrowth knocks off Heatrans leftovers THEN [turns 25 - 38] Tangrowth goes crazy by getting rocky helmet damage on landorus-t , Killing Terrakion, lives pursuit and gives M-Scizor rock helmet damage, tanks Landorus-t's Earthquakes then Kills it also.

and this is just the physical defensive set. There is also the AV set lol. My point is Tangrowth is seeing high level tour play in WCOP and getting wins and its been putting in work this meta.
I think it deserves to rise
 
When you guys update the thread can we have a serious discussion about just removing everything below C+ rank, consolidating C into C+ and C and/or just not having D rank. It gets super silly by the time you go below C+ with a mixture of "nobody uses/nobody cares" mentality other than some die hard fans of certain mons. Would also help keep the focus on B and up. Politoed and Kingdra should move down to B- to, closer to the other rain counterparts since their viability is a bit equal to each other realistically and rain is already a pretty heavy match up related style.

More emphasis on dropping stuff that's gotten worse or just overrated would be nice to.
 
Only thing I'm adamant for dropping is Venusaur and Volcanion. Volc only really has one set and its defensive utility is kinda overrated since SR weakness cuts into that and there's not much it's switching-into besides Azu:

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 178-210 (59.1 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 192-226 (63.7 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 170-204 (56.4 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 223-263 (74 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The only waters I could see Volc seriously taking advantage of (besides Azu of course lel) are Suicune and maayybbee Slowbro but the even bigger issue is that even if Volc gets in on a predicted water attack, what is it doing back? Sure I guess it gets to fish for burns but Rotom just volts out and RoarCune and even regular Gyara (the resto-chesto set) use it as setup fodder. It has to lock itself into HP Grass which is pretty easy to take advantage of considering how piss-weak it is lel.

Tangrowth can rise too, good check to physical attackers as well as offensive ground types with enough offensive presence to pose a direct threat to teams unlike Amoonguss who relies on status to deal with things (btw having Tang in A- Amoonguss in B+ and Venu in B would solve the whole 'having all three bulky grass types shown as equally viable clearly when they're not' issue I've been ranting about for a millennium) and can act as a neat lure with HP Fire/Ice to hit Ferro/Lando-T respectively.

Skeptical about Rachi since cuz while it is great there's shit like Heatran and Lando running around which is a real bitch for it to deal with. Also Diancie switch-in LUL

248 SpA Mega Diancie Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi: 170-200 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Not opposed to it entirely but not really in support of it either, would go into more detail but need to sleep :(
 
Only thing I'm adamant for dropping is Venusaur and Volcanion. Volc only really has one set and its defensive utility is kinda overrated since SR weakness cuts into that and there's not much it's switching-into besides Azu:

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 178-210 (59.1 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 192-226 (63.7 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 170-204 (56.4 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 223-263 (74 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The only waters I could see Volc seriously taking advantage of (besides Azu of course lel) are Suicune and maayybbee Slowbro but the even bigger issue is that even if Volc gets in on a predicted water attack, what is it doing back? Sure I guess it gets to fish for burns but Rotom just volts out and RoarCune and even regular Gyara (the resto-chesto set) use it as setup fodder. It has to lock itself into HP Grass which is pretty easy to take advantage of considering how piss-weak it is lel.

Tangrowth can rise too, good check to physical attackers as well as offensive ground types with enough offensive presence to pose a direct threat to teams unlike Amoonguss who relies on status to deal with things (btw having Tang in A- Amoonguss in B+ and Venu in B would solve the whole 'having all three bulky grass types shown as equally viable clearly when they're not' issue I've been ranting about for a millennium) and can act as a neat lure with HP Fire/Ice to hit Ferro/Lando-T respectively.

Skeptical about Rachi since cuz while it is great there's shit like Heatran and Lando running around which is a real bitch for it to deal with. Also Diancie switch-in LUL

248 SpA Mega Diancie Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi: 170-200 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Not opposed to it entirely but not really in support of it either, would go into more detail but need to sleep :(
I dont agree, i think Venu can be bigger asset than Amoonguss. Sure it takes a mega slot but anyways megas arent that played or will be the next gen. Venu also has sleep move with less accuracy and can deal with both Physical and Special Offensive pokemons and has higher offensive power than ammongus as well and even better recovery. Venu should be at least B plus if not A minus with Tang, Tang just became OU and not because of that it means it should be graded that high in the rankings, just compare it to venu and imo Venu is better overall.
 
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I dont agree, i think Venu can be bigger asset than Amoonguss. Sure it takes a mega slot but anyways megas arent that played or will be the next gen. Venu also has sleep move with less accuracy and can deal with both Physical and Special Offensive pokemons and has higher offensive power than ammongus as well and even better recovery. Venu should be at least B plus if not A minus with Tang, Tang just became OU and not because of that it means it should be graded taht high in the rankings, just compare it to venu and imo Venu is better overall.
Ok several things.

"sure it takes a mega slot" makes it sound like that slot is not a big deal. It is. It's a very big deal considering how much Megas bring to teams. Additionally, considering it's a one per team thing and the fact that is a B+ rank, the term "opportunity cost" actually stops being a buzzword term here and actually means something as there are better things to use in it's spot both as mega and towards the team as a whole.

What happen Next Gen has no bearing here at all. Period.

Pointing out Venu's sleep move having less accuracy is not a point in Venu's favor and Venu's recovery is hurt by the amount Sand teams running around.

Lastly, Tangrowth becoming OU is a completely random point and does not seem to have any bearing on M-Venu's rank other than "just because".
 
Only thing I'm adamant for dropping is Venusaur and Volcanion. Volc only really has one set and its defensive utility is kinda overrated since SR weakness cuts into that and there's not much it's switching-into besides Azu:

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 178-210 (59.1 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 192-226 (63.7 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 170-204 (56.4 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 223-263 (74 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The only waters I could see Volc seriously taking advantage of (besides Azu of course lel) are Suicune and maayybbee Slowbro but the even bigger issue is that even if Volc gets in on a predicted water attack, what is it doing back? Sure I guess it gets to fish for burns but Rotom just volts out and RoarCune and even regular Gyara (the resto-chesto set) use it as setup fodder. It has to lock itself into HP Grass which is pretty easy to take advantage of considering how piss-weak it is lel.

Tangrowth can rise too, good check to physical attackers as well as offensive ground types with enough offensive presence to pose a direct threat to teams unlike Amoonguss who relies on status to deal with things (btw having Tang in A- Amoonguss in B+ and Venu in B would solve the whole 'having all three bulky grass types shown as equally viable clearly when they're not' issue I've been ranting about for a millennium) and can act as a neat lure with HP Fire/Ice to hit Ferro/Lando-T respectively.

Skeptical about Rachi since cuz while it is great there's shit like Heatran and Lando running around which is a real bitch for it to deal with. Also Diancie switch-in LUL

248 SpA Mega Diancie Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi: 170-200 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Not opposed to it entirely but not really in support of it either, would go into more detail but need to sleep :(

So what you just said is that Volcanion will be swapping into a SPECS Keldeo's secret sword... no just no. Its swapping in on scald and then whats Keldeo going to do? swap out. And most things that are swapping in, are taking massive damage. This thing can swap in on 2 of the best choice users in the tier (Azu and Keldeo) while healing its self thus negating the SR weakness and it has very few reliable switch ins. It not only has defensive utility but also Great offensive utility.


Keep Volcanion in A
 
So what you just said is that Volcanion will be swapping into a SPECS Keldeo's secret sword... no just no. Its swapping in on scald and then whats Keldeo going to do? swap out. And most things that are swapping in, are taking massive damage. This thing can swap in on 2 of the best choice users in the tier (Azu and Keldeo) while healing its self thus negating the SR weakness and it has very few reliable switch ins. It not only has defensive utility but also Great offensive utility.


Keep Volcanion in A
No seriously what does Volcanion switch in on that other waters like Azumarill and Slowbro do better? Is Keldeo just going to spam Scald when a Volcanion is out on the field? It's too slow and can't switch in on much to work on Hyper Offense. It's rocks weak and Volcanion ends up getting one hit off at best with the specs set and then generally doesn't use it past because there is no way Volcanion is reliably getting a hit off. I'd rather have Tangrowth if I want a Pokemon to check Azumarill and still be able to provide offensive momentum and I would use someone like Keldeo or Azu so I don't stack any weaknesses and I have someone who isn't just a one hit bomb. I don't even know why people use the defensive set when Latios and Torn-t are everywhere and it doesn't change the fact that it can't switch in on anything past Azumarill. (and even then it gets a huge chunk of its health out and if you get superpowered it's over)

Honestly I think Volcanion is overrated as hell and should go lower than A- but A- is fine for me I guess.
 
Hello this is my first time posting in this thread so i'd like to apologize in advance for my inexperience.
I'd like to nom Tyrantrum from D to C- mainly for its CB set, I feel that metagame trends such as the decline of tank chomp and hippowdon as well as the popularity of landorus-T as a defensive wall are good enough reasons to bump him up a rank since they help it to mindlessly spam headsmash, yes Tyrantrum is outclassed by mega-medicham as a wall breaker but let me make a case for it regardless, not only does it not take up your mega, its also able to break past the one pokemon mega-medi desperately wants to hit, mega sableye, its also able to 2HKO almost every relevant threat in OU

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 337-397 (85.5 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Heatran: 291-343 (75.3 - 88.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 208-246 (64.3 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 198-234 (51.8 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 271-321 (84.9 - 100.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Scizor: 219-258 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 262-310 (86.4 - 102.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 259-306 (64.2 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 144-170 (39.8 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 516-608 (142.9 - 168.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 244-288 (69.3 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Outrage vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 494-584 (117.6 - 139%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 199-234 (55.7 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 237-279 (78.2 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 262-310 (66.4 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 180-213 (45.6 - 54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bisharp: 138-162 (41.3 - 48.5%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 237-279 (66.9 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 192-226 (47.5 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Jirachi: 270-318 (66.8 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Heracross: 252-297 (69.2 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Latias: 297-349 (81.8 - 96.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 135-159 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Metagross: 204-240 (56 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 219-258 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 346-408 (80 - 94.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 508-598 (79.1 - 93.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 196-232 (46.6 - 55.2%) -- 70.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 169-200 (60.1 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 309-364 (109.9 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 252-297 (62.3 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 276-325 (68.3 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 237-280 (58.6 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Venusaur: 313-370 (85.9 - 101.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Altaria: 594-698 (168.2 - 197.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Breloom: 159-188 (49 - 58%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 313-370 (81 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Dragonite: 286-337 (74 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Gastrodon: 224-264 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 280-331 (65.7 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 147-173 (46.2 - 54.4%) -- 55.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 260-308 (81.7 - 96.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 331-391 (86.4 - 102%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 246-291 (62.4 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 331-391 (78 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 319-376 (59.7 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Diggersby: 162-192 (43.3 - 51.3%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Swampert: 208-246 (60.9 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 237-280 (58.6 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 213-252 (57.4 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 320-378 (86.2 - 101.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 265-313 (64 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 193-228 (50.7 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 198-234 (53 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bronzong: 169-199 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


if you glanced at those calcs it should be apparent that the majority of the time you're clicking head smash which helps alleviate prediction to a degree, this helps with breaking down passive stall which tyrantrum works best against, and since it hits 241 fully invested its able to out speed most defensive mon right up to uninvested garchomp, its not exactly dead wait versus offence either since it can switch into CB victini's V-create, and any standard talonflame set except for Will-Oh-Wisp, and even then talonflame needs at least 3 boosts to even live headsmash 252+ Atk Choice Band burned Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. +2 252 HP / 252 Def Talonflame: 374-444 (103.8 - 123.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO, i also included 2 replays
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-395990897
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-404095151
I understand that replays are generally only taken into consideration at a 1500+ level but i only play the game casually and struggle to break 1400 so hopefully these replays still has some worth despite the hax and all. One last point the only other wallbreakers in D are sylveon and rhyperion, tyrantrum outclasses both of them offensively perhaps that is enough to move it to C-
 
When you guys update the thread can we have a serious discussion about just removing everything below C+ rank, consolidating C into C+ and C and/or just not having D rank. It gets super silly by the time you go below C+ with a mixture of "nobody uses/nobody cares" mentality other than some die hard fans of certain mons. Would also help keep the focus on B and up. Politoed and Kingdra should move down to B- to, closer to the other rain counterparts since their viability is a bit equal to each other realistically and rain is already a pretty heavy match up related style.

More emphasis on dropping stuff that's gotten worse or just overrated would be nice to.
How about having just a C and D tier because, like you said, pokemon at that stage are so niche and dependent on team composition that you can't really go into general OU effectiveness like in A and B tier. So, we could perhaps start by making C+ and C the new C tier, and make C- and D the new D tier, and then work on whittling that down? That's my idea.
 
How about Weavile for A+?

Its CB set, which is arguably better than the LO one due to not stacking dmg with Stealth Rock and being a bitch to switch into due to its coverage, got an astronomical rise recently. Weavile's CB Pursuit may be weaker than Ttar, but is still strong enough to crush Lati@s after a bit of prior damage, usually after Stealth Rock damage and Latios has just used Draco Meteor on something. Meanwhile, even if Latios successfully switches out, the number of Pokemon that can easily switch into Weavile is very low. You have Keldeo and Mega Scizor, as well as Azumarill; however, Clefable is outright 2HKOed by Icicle Crash, something the LO set fails to do. Zard X is also always 2HKOed by Icicle Crash, while Tyranitar has a 98,8% to be 2HKOed. Terrakion gets 2HKOed as well. This means Weavile does not really need Low Kick in its 4th moveslot, unless you're paranoic of Bisharp or something, and can just use Pursuit instead.

Moving on, the rise of pokemon such as Amoonguss and Tangrowth over Mega Venusaur is terrific for Weavile, as it can easily check and at least 2HKO them with Icicle Crash after a bit of prior damage, unlike Mega Venu that sponges Weav's attacks, Leech Seeds it, and walls it. Since Regen mons (bar Torn-T) don't mind entry hazards that much, they tend NOT to be at 100% when they switch in, which is great news for Weavile because Amoonguss is outright OHKOed after rocks while Tangrowth takes about 70%. Jirachi's rise isn't that bad either, as Weavile can pursuit trap it (watch out for scarf sets though).

Weavile is getting better and better as we're closing in. It probably should go A+.
 
How about Weavile for A+?

Its CB set, which is arguably better than the LO one due to not stacking dmg with Stealth Rock and being a bitch to switch into due to its coverage, got an astronomical rise recently. Weavile's CB Pursuit may be weaker than Ttar, but is still strong enough to crush Lati@s after a bit of prior damage, usually after Stealth Rock damage and Latios has just used Draco Meteor on something. Meanwhile, even if Latios successfully switches out, the number of Pokemon that can easily switch into Weavile is very low. You have Keldeo and Mega Scizor, as well as Azumarill; however, Clefable is outright 2HKOed by Icicle Crash, something the LO set fails to do. Zard X is also always 2HKOed by Icicle Crash, while Tyranitar has a 98,8% to be 2HKOed. Terrakion gets 2HKOed as well. This means Weavile does not really need Low Kick in its 4th moveslot, unless you're paranoic of Bisharp or something, and can just use Pursuit instead.

Moving on, the rise of pokemon such as Amoonguss and Tangrowth over Mega Venusaur is terrific for Weavile, as it can easily check and at least 2HKO them with Icicle Crash after a bit of prior damage, unlike Mega Venu that sponges Weav's attacks, Leech Seeds it, and walls it. Since Regen mons (bar Torn-T) don't mind entry hazards that much, they tend NOT to be at 100% when they switch in, which is great news for Weavile because Amoonguss is outright OHKOed after rocks while Tangrowth takes about 70%. Jirachi's rise isn't that bad either, as Weavile can pursuit trap it (watch out for scarf sets though).

Weavile is getting better and better as we're closing in. It probably should go A+.
To be fair, the rise of the Pokemon you mentioned are not going to be switching in on Weavile anyways. I am not going to involve myself in this discussion that much, but when is Torn-T or Tangrowth going to switch in on Weavile? Weavile's switch-ins are typically Skarmory, Mega Scizor, or Keldeo, and you are really just cherry picking common Grass and Flying-types in an attempt to bolster your argument. Yes, Weavile does well against a majority of the metagame, but it has been well established that Weavile has strong matchups against the majority of the metagame for months. What you really need to be doing is, instead of citing Weavile's solid matchups against the majority of the metagame, which it is already in A rank for, explain why we should consider it cut above mons like Ferrothorn, Mega Lopunny, and Talonflame and about on par with Mega Scizor, Keldeo, and Landorus-T.
 
How about having just a C and D tier because, like you said, pokemon at that stage are so niche and dependent on team composition that you can't really go into general OU effectiveness like in A and B tier. So, we could perhaps start by making C+ and C the new C tier, and make C- and D the new D tier, and then work on whittling that down? That's my idea.
I'd be fine with w/e when the time comes and if they want to do thats fine. Just know most of them are garbage to be endorsing it as a resource to players.

I'd be okay with Weavile in A+, not okay with an m-venu drop, and normally I dont agree with doabarrelroll ever but alfalfa wth is that argument? Ferrothorn is like on the low end of being A+ anyways and I think lopunny, granted this is debatable is better and more constraining than half the A+ mons and a bunch of the A ones.

Edit: oh yeah alomo is good for B to like flegg said

Edit: ferro is in A nvm
 
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I dont agree, i think Venu can be bigger asset than Amoonguss. Sure it takes a mega slot but anyways megas arent that played or will be the next gen. Venu also has sleep move with less accuracy and can deal with both Physical and Special Offensive pokemons and has higher offensive power than ammongus as well and even better recovery. Venu should be at least B plus if not A minus with Tang, Tang just became OU and not because of that it means it should be graded that high in the rankings, just compare it to venu and imo Venu is better overall.
Instead of writing another essay on Venusaur I'll just point out you can go back a page and find my previous post detailing Venu's massive flaws.

So what you just said is that Volcanion will be swapping into a SPECS Keldeo's secret sword... no just no. Its swapping in on scald and then whats Keldeo going to do? swap out. And most things that are swapping in, are taking massive damage. This thing can swap in on 2 of the best choice users in the tier (Azu and Keldeo) while healing its self thus negating the SR weakness and it has very few reliable switch ins. It not only has defensive utility but also Great offensive utility.


Keep Volcanion in A
Ok if you see a Volcanion on your opponent's team and your thought process with Keldeo is to mindlessly click Scald you're just a bad player idk what else to tell you. You'd be predicting Volc to come in since you don't want to give it free turns to fire off Steam Eruption lol. I wouldn't call Azu one of the best choice users in the tier at all and again, Keldeo predicts the switch and 2hko's with Secret Sword. Also not to mention that the healing from Water Absorb is kinda redundant as long as rocks are up cuz ou're just being kept as the same amount of HP granted you get in on a water attack. I guess negating the damage is better than nothing but a lot of the time you won't have the luxury of getting in on a water attack anyways so it's not like this thing has Magic Guard or something lel. And lastly its defensive utility is pretty overrated since rocks are a thing and unless you're the greatest player of all time your Volc's not staying at 100% with rocks up.

To be fair, the rise of the Pokemon you mentioned are not going to be switching in on Weavile anyways. I am not going to involve myself in this discussion that much, but when is Torn-T or Tangrowth going to switch in on Weavile? Weavile's switch-ins are typically Skarmory, Mega Scizor, or Keldeo, and you are really just cherry picking common Grass and Flying-types in an attempt to bolster your argument. Yes, Weavile does well against a majority of the metagame, but it has been well established that Weavile has strong matchups against the majority of the metagame for months. What you really need to be doing is, instead of citing Weavile's solid matchups against the majority of the metagame, which it is already in A rank for, explain why we should consider it cut above mons like Ferrothorn, Mega Lopunny, and Talonflame and about on par with Mega Scizor, Keldeo, and Landorus-T.
The point isn't that Torn-T or Tang are switch-ins that Weavile can beat, it's that they're popular pokemon that have risen a lot in the last few months that Weavile threatens a ton, illustrating that metagame trends have been working in Weavile's favor for a while now. It isn't cherrypicking, it's illustrating that metagame trends have been working in Weavile's favor for a while now. Yeah we know what switches-into Weavile, that's why it hasn't been banned already lol. However note you have three switch-ins, one of which isn't really consistent at all. As for comparisons to A mons, Ferro's great but as a support mon is undercut by its glaring fire weakness and low speed, Weavile is arguably just as threatening to offensive teams as Lopunny without taking up a mega slot, and Talon is even more anally raped by rocks than Weavile is and usually runs a defensive set nowadays which needs a few turns of setup to become threatening meanwhile Weavile is threatening turn 1.

nomming alomomola up further to b.

it's really good in the meta right now in that it pretty much walls literally everything in existance, and unlike slowbro/jellicent/whatever, it doesn't keel over to dark types commonly paired with mega lop and mega medi, making it a solid answer to the dark types and the hjk deterrence when it's in (which is a pretty huge thing if you ask me) is really good too because it helps prevent mmedi from going ham on teams because there's always the risk of double protects and other nonsense which make it annoying to beat alomomola. it's also really easy to deal with its counters: electrics are on a decline and they're easily dealt with, usually by ttar which can trap them and remove them. grass types can be covered by most steel types which love the wish support and anti fire support that alo provides, while amoonguss also works very nicely too.

i think it's pretty insane how it can take some of the strongest attacks in the meta and proceed to shrug it off over the course of the game with regenerator + solid enough recovery.

it's passive as unholy hell, but most of its good offensive answers, mainly sub users like keldeo are nowhere to be seen and alo just scald burns everything else lol.

wcop / pocl replays: 1, 2, 3
Fine with this but don't really care either way.
 
I really don't think that Weavile is A+ mon. Don't get me wrong, Weavile is majot thread, however it has "Alakazam's syndrom", which means if it does not OHKO something it almost always die. No defensive utility, weakness to rocks and life orb recoil heavily limits it's potential. Also weavile wants like 5 or even 6 slots. It really wants ice shard to not get crushed by scarf lando, scarf chomp(very underrated set) and deal at least chip damage do Mega Alakazam and other fast megas. Low kinck is important to get rid of Tyranitar, Bisharp, Ferrothorn, Heatran. Pursuits is nice to trap (you don't have to take rocks damage more than one time).

But as I said thing that hold it most is rocks weakness (yeah, not having magic guard sucks a lot). Weavile comes on rocks 3 times and takes 3 LO recoils and it's gone! Even if your weavile check is something as shaky as Klefki, or Specs Keldeo, or Ferrothorn you can deal with thiat if you play smart.

Summing everything up, Weavile is not most viable attacker in tier. Very good but there are things that holds it's back.
 

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