Is that not an entirely different issue known as overcentralization >.>
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ORAS - post-Greninja - Metagame Discussion
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then is discharge / sludge bomb / effect spore [ability] / rock slide all uncompetitive? if we're seriously debating on scald's 30% chance to burn then all these moves should be considered. luck will always be apart of pokemon no matter how much you try to take away from it.
what overcentralization does it cause? I've mentioned you're not forced to use stealth rocks to win or use hazard removal to win.
I'd like to join the discussion with my thoughts:
Suspect testing Mega-Metagross is a must at the moment. Like everyone said, it's bulky, powerful and speedy. It is also too versatile and pretty unpredictable. I don't think that MegaGross is metagame-defining, but it is indeed a top threat.
Then Mega-Sableye, probably the mon that gave stall a new life in ORAS. It is easily stopped by many common mons in the tier, namely fairies. It may be suspect test material, but not now.
Now, Shadow Tag, this is a real pain, mostly in form of Gothitelle. I've experienced how stressing is to battle a team carrying Gothitelle when you're using stall. Like in a past post was said, it just forces you to do really risky moves. Also that you will be basically battling with 4 or 5 mons, just for the mere Gothi presence. It's pretty much the same with Ttar and the Latis, you just can't use them until Ttar is removed or you lose a mon. Wobbuffet in the other hand is way different than Gothitelle as a S-Tag user. It may give free turns for a teammate or KO a Choice-locked mon. It may have the chance to kill or stop a mon, but instead Gothitelle renders many defensive mons/cores to nothing with little effort (depending of the set obviously). This leads to me believe that Gothitelle should be suspect tested, and not S-Tag at all.
About retesting mons, I was anti-ban for Aegislash and I didn't had a chance to vote. But the differences between the pre and post Aegis ban are really notorious. XY became a bit more balanced. ORAS didn't bring anything notorious to make Aegislash less 'broken' or threatening. Retesting may be just a waste of time, but I'm not againist it. Retesting Genesect would be a real waste, that thing is outright broken for the OU actual meta. And for Deo-D, no opinions on this.
No opinion of GeoPass, SmashPass and friends. I'll look more about this before saying anything.
For Stealth Rock, it is now a essential part of the metagame. It keeps at bay many mons from being spammed. Think about Volcarona if SR didn't exist (just a vague example). Everyone got used to deal with hazards, for both good and bad.
For the metagame, it is balanced now, up to certain point. There are too many threats to cover that you may end up being weak to something. It is still enjoyable.
Suspect testing Mega-Metagross is a must at the moment. Like everyone said, it's bulky, powerful and speedy. It is also too versatile and pretty unpredictable. I don't think that MegaGross is metagame-defining, but it is indeed a top threat.
Then Mega-Sableye, probably the mon that gave stall a new life in ORAS. It is easily stopped by many common mons in the tier, namely fairies. It may be suspect test material, but not now.
Now, Shadow Tag, this is a real pain, mostly in form of Gothitelle. I've experienced how stressing is to battle a team carrying Gothitelle when you're using stall. Like in a past post was said, it just forces you to do really risky moves. Also that you will be basically battling with 4 or 5 mons, just for the mere Gothi presence. It's pretty much the same with Ttar and the Latis, you just can't use them until Ttar is removed or you lose a mon. Wobbuffet in the other hand is way different than Gothitelle as a S-Tag user. It may give free turns for a teammate or KO a Choice-locked mon. It may have the chance to kill or stop a mon, but instead Gothitelle renders many defensive mons/cores to nothing with little effort (depending of the set obviously). This leads to me believe that Gothitelle should be suspect tested, and not S-Tag at all.
About retesting mons, I was anti-ban for Aegislash and I didn't had a chance to vote. But the differences between the pre and post Aegis ban are really notorious. XY became a bit more balanced. ORAS didn't bring anything notorious to make Aegislash less 'broken' or threatening. Retesting may be just a waste of time, but I'm not againist it. Retesting Genesect would be a real waste, that thing is outright broken for the OU actual meta. And for Deo-D, no opinions on this.
No opinion of GeoPass, SmashPass and friends. I'll look more about this before saying anything.
For Stealth Rock, it is now a essential part of the metagame. It keeps at bay many mons from being spammed. Think about Volcarona if SR didn't exist (just a vague example). Everyone got used to deal with hazards, for both good and bad.
For the metagame, it is balanced now, up to certain point. There are too many threats to cover that you may end up being weak to something. It is still enjoyable.
True, but unless you've built an extremely solid team and no matter what you can't fit in hazard removal without fucking up an important part of the team's synergy, it's really not a good idea.
Also, for the love of god do not retest Aegislash. I don't want to deal with that AIDS again.
Difference between discharge is 1. it sucks.. nothing runs it, 2. there are switch ins, and 3. para while crippling it's better spread with thunder wave. Sludge bomb same thing, you have switch ins and poison is better spread by toxic (which badly poisons). Like breloom, parasect, and amoongus are going to run effect spore in any tier? and rock slide is outclassed by stone edge do to low BP.
Scald on the other hand has no switch ins. All pokemon switching into scald are crippled severely by burn.. and if special attackers, wered down by it. It's the fact that a water type move with a burn chance gives scald many more opportunities and much more viability over the other moves that puts it over the edge. Not to mention scald's much, MUCH higher distribution.
Bring in rotom? Burn. Bring in altaria? Burn. Bring gastrodon? Storm drain.. but it sucks in OU.
Toxicroak is good, although I do agree with you about banning Scald.
somewhat true to an extent, however, there's still a variety of pokemon that can remove hazard and fit onto specific archetype teams ; scizor, mega scizor, latios, latias, mew, mandibuzz, zapdos, starmie, tentacruel, mega-blast, empoleon, and skarmory. and to an extent: mega-diancie, mega-sableye, espeon and mega absol. quite a long list if you ask me. you could even go gimmicky and try defog on altaria, mega-char, togekiss but that's a lol.
honestly, i don't know if we should be arguing about scald here, so this is my last post on this, but scald's burn is rng. all of the situations you give me are all theoritical and although all those situations have happen, it's all up to rng. sure relying on rng = uncompetitiveness / lucky n bad, but sometimes rng can turn 99% chance of losing to 50% chance of winning now. <- this is why rng is added, to flip the game's odds basically how in a basketball game, when you come back down from 20 in the 4th quarter at home or w/e. there's benefits and cons' to it, but scald at this point isn't really over the top. rng is a part of the game, and we can't change it.
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Scald is less uncompetitive than anything that has a freeze chance. If we're gonna talk about banning shit because it has a chance to status, why isn't Lava Plume, Discharge, hell, even Ice Beam being suspect tested? A move shouldn't be banned because it has a chance to add a status effect. Scald is powerful no doubt, but powerful enough to warrant a suspect test? No thanks.
If we're gonna start talking about banning things like that then anything that has a chance to freeze should go first IMO, but even still that's a huge stretch and if we ever get to that point then we're kinda desperate for suspect tests lol.
Anyway;
I'm all for a suspect test for both Mega-Metagross and Mega-Sableye. I don't think either are broken per se, but they're both most definitely suspect test worthy.
For Stealth Rocks? There was a ladder without Stealth Rocks if I'm not mistaken back in... Gen 5 I believe? Towards the end of BW2. I recall seeing more sturdy and sash users which is kind of a pain in the ass. Stealth Rocks isn't broken IMO, my only problem with it is that if you want to get rid of it (or any other hazards for that matter), you're forced to run from a selection of Pokemon, which limits teambuilding (and I say that very loosely... There are a ton of very viable spinners/defoggers, SR being "limiting" is by no means a problem). But it's such a small problem that I again, don't see a need to suspect it for a very long time, if ever.
I would personally like to see Aegislash suspect tested again. I rather enjoyed the Aegislash meta, and while people say it limits teambuilding and causes 50/50's and this and that... A ton of Pokemon do that. "Will the opponent do this or that?" "Should I go straight for the Fire Blast or predict his switch and Ice Beam?" There are 50/50's every game. Aegislash creating 50/50's is not a good enough reason on it's own to keep it banned. At least with Aegislash it was as little as "...Do I Earthquake or Swords Dance?" "Do I Flamethrower or switch?" My problem with Aegislash was that it was such a reliable Pokemon. It fit on every team, and always did it's job. Yes, it could sweep. It could do A, B, and C. But it wasn't necessarily BROKEN. It was just a very good, very reliable Pokemon.
Genesect? Maybe. I'd like suspects go in this order tbh;
Retest Aegislash > IF UNBANNED, Retest Genesect. IF NOT UNBANNED, > Metagross > Sableye
Genesect is more banworthy than Aegislash IMO, so if Aegislash can't come back then I don't see a reason for Genesect to, either.
If you even read the post, like I said.. difference is there are switch ins to other status inducing moves like lava plume. Fire types can be brought into lava plume and there's plenty of those. Only fire types are immune to the burn, but surprise, scald is a water type move so there is literally no escape from being burnt outside natural cure/aromatherapy which HO lacks. Again, you can bring a pokemon in to take a lava plume reliably.. you can bring in a pokemon to take lol discharge reliably.. ice beam's freeze chance is significantly lower and sometimes it's one turn freeze (or no turn!) rather than a cripple the whole game.. oh yeah and again ice types can't be frozen (I think?) so there are option to handle freeze as well. Burn on the other hand renders physical attackers and sweepers of all kind useless with none of them being capable of handling scald other than zard x thanks to dragon typing and random shit from RU and UU with water immunity.
It'd be a different story say scald was a fire type move with reliable switch ins? But it's not.. it's typing and status infliction has perfect syngery.
EDIT: AV conk is one thing that can switch in but last I checked he almost fell UU recently.
We should unban evasive moves, swagger, and OHKO moves then as well.. cause RNG is just part of the game. Hell, we even banned bright powder at one point.
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Aegislash
Aegislash has been the only banned Pokemon of XY/ORAS that I haven't been in support of banning. I completely agree with the above about 50/50s, and while it limits use of certain mons like Heracross, Starmie, etc. it's not like other top threats don't do the same thing. I think it's just a really good mon that you can fit on a lot of teams, has comparable utility and power to something like Latios or Landorus-T, and doesn't hinder the balance of the metagame. A King's Shield ban test may be viable as well.
Genesect, Deoxys-D, etc.
These are broken and overcentralizing. No need for a retest.
Stealth Rock
This would be very interesting. I think the sheer amount of damage Rocks do over the course of the battle would surprise some people; if you switch, say, 10 times, that's around 1/5 of your entire team's HP. What the hell, it's not like there are many horribly broken things in the meta right now anyway, and it would give good mons with a rock weakness a time to shine.
Scald
It's a widely distributed move with a 30% chance to burn. Not a huge deal IMO
Mega-Metagross
Simply too strong. Test-worthy.
Mega-Sableye
Extremely difficult to deal with. Test-worthy.
Aegislash has been the only banned Pokemon of XY/ORAS that I haven't been in support of banning. I completely agree with the above about 50/50s, and while it limits use of certain mons like Heracross, Starmie, etc. it's not like other top threats don't do the same thing. I think it's just a really good mon that you can fit on a lot of teams, has comparable utility and power to something like Latios or Landorus-T, and doesn't hinder the balance of the metagame. A King's Shield ban test may be viable as well.
Genesect, Deoxys-D, etc.
These are broken and overcentralizing. No need for a retest.
Stealth Rock
This would be very interesting. I think the sheer amount of damage Rocks do over the course of the battle would surprise some people; if you switch, say, 10 times, that's around 1/5 of your entire team's HP. What the hell, it's not like there are many horribly broken things in the meta right now anyway, and it would give good mons with a rock weakness a time to shine.
Scald
It's a widely distributed move with a 30% chance to burn. Not a huge deal IMO
Mega-Metagross
Simply too strong. Test-worthy.
Mega-Sableye
Extremely difficult to deal with. Test-worthy.
I agree with your list except for one point and I wasn't saying that Scolipede, Smeargle or Gothitelle are broken at Kangaskhan-level.
The first point I disagree is:
3. Gives the community a chance to experience a ladder with the suspects banned before a decision is made.
To be specific, while it seems good on paper it showed to me that many people will look at the suspect from a more subjective way. I often read "the meta without pokemon x is now more enjoyable and diverse". Voting for a ban using this as your basis will lead to a more and more "ban what you don't like"-suspect-test. I brought it up once: If we would suspect Talonflame (which I don't say it should be) it would get banned without a doubt. The reason is the "more enjoyable" ladder since you don't have to prepare for it and we all know how much hate it gets. I get the point of banning the suspect from the ladder and experienced players can use it to judge better, but the majority of the people who will decide the outcome are basing their vote only from their personal interest. The ladder is one of the problems to determine a good result in a suspect test, or more specific: the voters. You pointed it out as a pro for suspect test but I think it is more of a con at the moment.
Now to the quickbanning:
Yes, these 3 Pokemon are nowhere near of a threat than Khangaskan or Salamence, and I am sorry if it sounded like I was trying to say that.
My point is: we have ALOT of testing to do and doing a suspect test for everyone is just timeconsuming. A suspect test would be better in my opinion if we wouldn't have so many other things to test too. Using quickbans for these Pokemon seems the optimal solution because they are not really broken, they just have an uncompetitive presence in the metagame. Removing them now, making the ladder and game more skill-based and testing them after all other suspect tests will speed the process up and prevents suspecting one Pokemon after one without any break or time for the ladder to adapt. Scolipede and Smeargle are only dangerous on those BatonPass-teams so quickbanning them doesn't have that much of an impact than quickbanning something like Sableye which definitely needs discussion and testing. The same with Gothitelle as it is "just" trapping defensive Pokemon and a quickban would not lead into a great change to the metagame. Stall players would not have to play around it somehow but would use the same teams basically.
Quickbanning these three gives us room and time to suspect and retest what has to be done soon. After that we can retest and suspect test them and decide if they are really that uncompetitive or broken.
Sorry if somebody misunderstood my original post (I was in a hurry...), I hope I cleared everything up.
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Tbh, I was going to make this an anti-ban post but I'm kinda on the fence as I look at this more in depth..
I'm not sure if scolipede is broken or not. On one hand he struggles on his own and is pretty situational.. if you know how to handle him then chances are he won't get his boost up. However on the other hand a +2 Def, +2 speed to any pokemon.. especially charizard, gallade, and metagross looks extremely frightening on paper.
I'm not so sure on this one.. I leaning towards a no on the ban, everything he's baton passing into is/was either considered for suspect test, or have terrible typing synergy to successfully pull off sweeps with the boost, which makes me believe it's not scolipede that's broken but the pokemon he's giving these boost too are just already over the top making the strategy look more broken than it should be.
Genuine question, What exactly are the pokemon scolipede is boosting for? I ask because I'd like the point out what kind of synergy scoli has with these sweepers and how they are easily stopped after the boost. I just see gyarados, metagross, and charizard being the only potential problems and maybe altaria to a lesser extent.
I'm not sure if scolipede is broken or not. On one hand he struggles on his own and is pretty situational.. if you know how to handle him then chances are he won't get his boost up. However on the other hand a +2 Def, +2 speed to any pokemon.. especially charizard, gallade, and metagross looks extremely frightening on paper.
I'm not so sure on this one.. I leaning towards a no on the ban, everything he's baton passing into is/was either considered for suspect test, or have terrible typing synergy to successfully pull off sweeps with the boost, which makes me believe it's not scolipede that's broken but the pokemon he's giving these boost too are just already over the top making the strategy look more broken than it should be.
Genuine question, What exactly are the pokemon scolipede is boosting for? I ask because I'd like the point out what kind of synergy scoli has with these sweepers and how they are easily stopped after the boost. I just see gyarados, metagross, and charizard being the only potential problems and maybe altaria to a lesser extent.
Scolipedes usually pass to Espeon because of Magic Bounce. CM / Stored Power / Dazzling Gleam / Moonlight
I think Scolipede is more problematic than Smeargle to be honest but still not sure where I stand on the whole thing. I'd like to get rid of both just because I hate dealing with their shenanigans but I'm not totally sure if they're broken or not.
I think Scolipede is more problematic than Smeargle to be honest but still not sure where I stand on the whole thing. I'd like to get rid of both just because I hate dealing with their shenanigans but I'm not totally sure if they're broken or not.
Suspect Stealth Rock? You could argue the same for suspecting priority. Both are everywhere.
If you don't run a pokemon priority these days, you're probably going to suffer, same as if you don't run Stealth Rock your team isn't optimal.
It's not like it's a limiting factor in teambuilding, there are so many offensive and defensive SR setters. You can still run your Sashloom and Sturdy mons if you want to, there's always room to create an opportunity to remove hazards.
If you don't run a pokemon priority these days, you're probably going to suffer, same as if you don't run Stealth Rock your team isn't optimal.
It's not like it's a limiting factor in teambuilding, there are so many offensive and defensive SR setters. You can still run your Sashloom and Sturdy mons if you want to, there's always room to create an opportunity to remove hazards.
Passing Geo + Cotton Gard to any special sweeper like Gardevoir or passing speed + defense to literally any sweeper can make every threat into an unstoppable sweeper. Espeon is just the best receiver but not the real problem.
It would just move to something else. Mega Gardevoir would be a great replacement, between Taunt, Pixilate Hyper Voice, and Stored Power it could basically do the same thing.
Yeah but it lacks recovery. Scizor and heatran could easily break the core at least. I think Koruna nailed it on the main problem.. espeon because you can't phaze it, stall it, or revenge kill it with anything particularly. Everything else that things baton into can be revenge killed or shutdown by taunt/priority.
Taunt blocks virtually any kind of phazing outside of Circle Throw. SDef Steels don't help either.
+2 232 SpA Mega Gardevoir Stored Power (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 266-313 (68.9 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. +2 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 84-102 (30.3 - 36.8%) -- 47.9% chance to 3HKO
96+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. +3 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 120-144 (43.3 - 51.9%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO
+2 232 SpA Mega Gardevoir Stored Power (200 BP) vs. 248 HP / 164 SpD Mega Scizor: 328-387 (95.6 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
How do you revenge something that has over 600 speed at +2? Priority?
212+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. +3 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 174-206 (62.8 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. +3 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 134-158 (48.3 - 57%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. +3 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 99-118 (35.7 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Please, Mega Gard may not be a perfect receiver, but it's a really freaking good one. There's other options too, outside of standard Mega Gard.
Edit: also, Xatu can do basically the same job, with more consistent recovery to boot.
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252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. +2 144 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 109-129 (32.7 - 38.7%) -- 98.5% chance to 3HKO
Bulky Charizard X after getting a boost from Scolipede. And it has access to Roost which can only be shut down by Prankster-Taunt. Not impossible to beat but a nightmare for sure.
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. +3 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 87-103 (29.7 - 35.2%) -- 21.7% chance to 3HKO
Special Altaria after Smeargle.
Like I said, Espeon is the best receiver but there are other options too.
Something I thought about while reading opinions on potentially broken/uncompetitive Baton Pass strats. If it's indeed so difficult to get a valid opinion on them from ladder experience where they're uncommon, it's something that should be tested by a group of veteran players. Like a group of 20, divided between BP and non-BP users, checking BP matchups against teams that have no preparations against those strats (but are still very good against anything non-BP) and against teams that have minor but not particularly compromising (like 60BP guaranteed hit moves vs evasion) alterations. With every player having two games against each one from opposing group, that's 200 games total - a large and very reliable statistical pool.
If my suggestion is retarded or impossible (yeah, this ain't a council-ruled tier like UU), I'll delete it ASAP.
If my suggestion is retarded or impossible (yeah, this ain't a council-ruled tier like UU), I'll delete it ASAP.
I for one am of the opinion that BP clause, especially BP clause Mark II, were big mistakes. I can assure you that the moment Scoli and Smeargle are gone (if not sooner), I will be petitioning for the BP cap to be raised to at least 3...
Not that my word means much because it's the council's decision in the end, but that's the best I have to offer you.
RoyalDispenser I have tried everything from espeon to "bulky" NP Thundy-T to SD megasaur and have swept at least once with all of them. I have an entire folder of really dumb scolipede-enabled sweeps if you are interested.
Atm, my team is usually passing boosts to either Zard-X or espeon, but pretty much any threatening mon appreciates the boosts.
P.S. Feel free to check out the RMT linked in my sig. It's a pretty well built team that will allow you to quickly experiment with Scoli.
Big difference with Scald. In basically every other scenario, the move is NVE against the type that can't be effected with that status. For example, Electrics resist Discharge, and can't be paralyzed by it. Same with Sludge Bomb and poison, Lava Plume and burns. Pokemon that are immune to burns? Everything outside of Char-X is weak to Water. Also, Rock Slide has nothing to do with this because switch-ins can't flinch.
Edit: read this post about Scald. Sums up the potential uncompetitive nature of it well.
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I would rather complex ban Magic Bounce Espeon specifically rather than altogether ban a mediocre Pokemon.
So I decided to dig up some old replays back when I was still trying to figure out my team (aka prior to duel screens memento latios), and I found some interesting replays of alternate scolipede sets and non-espeon/zard-x sweeps
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-123968261
Features an almost-sweep by a togekiss, plus scolipede outdueling DD megados with unstabbed, uninvested EQ.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-124224420
Good show of Scoli's stupid bulk, allowing him to bypass what was once considered his best counter (CB talonflame). Also showcases an Excadrill sweep (but we all know Excadrill can sweep if given a speed boost).
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-125376926
Showcases one of Scoli's lure sets I used to experiment with. Replaces subs with rock slide to nail talonflame or in this case, megazard-y.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-125531059
As promised, my NP Thundy-T sweep. Granted, it was against a flyspam team, but given that I got away with this without screens is impressive.
These replays are out of date as frick, but they still show that you can pass to darn near anything and make it scary.
Synchronation I'll get to your post after class, I haven't forgotten about you :)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-123968261
Features an almost-sweep by a togekiss, plus scolipede outdueling DD megados with unstabbed, uninvested EQ.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-124224420
Good show of Scoli's stupid bulk, allowing him to bypass what was once considered his best counter (CB talonflame). Also showcases an Excadrill sweep (but we all know Excadrill can sweep if given a speed boost).
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-125376926
Showcases one of Scoli's lure sets I used to experiment with. Replaces subs with rock slide to nail talonflame or in this case, megazard-y.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-125531059
As promised, my NP Thundy-T sweep. Granted, it was against a flyspam team, but given that I got away with this without screens is impressive.
These replays are out of date as frick, but they still show that you can pass to darn near anything and make it scary.
Synchronation I'll get to your post after class, I haven't forgotten about you :)
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