I'm not denying that Baton Passing boosts can be problematic, but in the case of a Celebi passing boosts it's really not. That's why everyone's attention is reverted to Smeargle and Scolipede.
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ORAS - post-Greninja - Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter haunter
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My entire point is that looking at those two specifically is a mistaken way to go about it. They are the biggest abusers of the problem, not the problem itself.
As an example meant to only be taken as such, and not one indicative of my whole argument, if OHKO moves were not banned, we wouldn't be looking at Articuno to ban it because of mind reader + sheer cold, we should just ban sheer cold.
As an example meant to only be taken as such, and not one indicative of my whole argument, if OHKO moves were not banned, we wouldn't be looking at Articuno to ban it because of mind reader + sheer cold, we should just ban sheer cold.
But you are talking about "what if" situations, if maybe indirectly so. You're suggesting that a Baton Pass or a complex ban should be used because the use of Baton Pass and passing moves is inherently problematic, and if we ban the current best passer, the next one down the line is likely to cause a problem within the tier. This logic is flawed, because you're basing your premise on the idea that it will be a problem. First of all, there's no evidence to suggest that this is currently true. Scolipede and Smeargle have access to specific tools as passers that no other passers in the game have the luxury of using. The next set of passers don't even come close. And while you haven't mentioned it, the only other means of other passers becoming an issue down the line is in the event Z/X2/Y2/future generations come with a new slew of Pokemon that can Baton Pass, but again, we should cross that bridge when we come to it.
It's for the very reason why we don't ban Spore. I could argue that Spore is inherently a problem, since if you ban Smeargle, Breloom, and Amoongus, people will just start using Parasect. But you can see why this logic is flawed, because no one is going to viably use Parasect. And we're not going to ban Spore on the assumption that something good might get it down the line.
This is a terrible example, since the suggestion of this idea sets up the answer you want. Of course we'd ban Sheer Cold, because OHKO moves are a problem on anyone who has them. That's why they're banned. Baton Pass does not fit this criteria.
Banning Baton Pass as a whole is just a bad idea. I understand the thought process behind wanting to keep BP in check and frustration that complex bans have not worked sufficiently thus far, but limiting diversity and creativity in the metagame by getting rid of a move with tons of valid, strategic uses is just not the way to go. The only time to ban a move is if the move itself is broken on everything that gets it, which is pretty clearly untrue. Drypassing for momentum, NastyPass, SD Pass, SubPass, AgiliPass, etc are all healthy ways that Baton Pass can be utilized strategically to benefit one's team in a manner that is nowhere near broken or unhealthy. The issue here is the type of boosts being passed and the Pokemon passing them, which is specifically an issue with Smeargle because it's the only Pokemon able to use GeoPass in OU. We can talk about hypotheticals for days, but the issue at hand here is GeoPass and that is the only thing we should be targeting, if anything.
It really isn't. Time and time again Scolipede and Smeargle have proven themselves to be the root of the problem all this time. ChainPass teams back then always ran these two, and the remaining 4 members can honestly vary (Vaporeon, Espeon, and Sylveon were common Passing partners). Even when ChainPass was shut down, Scolipede and Smeargle still functioned as remarkably efficient QuickPassers even without their Passing teammates. I mean can u honestly say that other Baton Passers like Acid Armor Vaporeon, Calm Mind Espeon, and Calm Mind Sylveon, aka the common partners of ChainPass, would be able to function on their own even anywhere near as consistently and effectively as Pede and Smeargle? Need I explain Ninjask, which commonly fails even in lower tiers (where it does not compete with Pede)?
Banning Baton Pass creates way more collateral than simply getting rid of Smeargle and Scolipede. Also, GeoPass may be the centerforce of Smeargle's brokenness, but the ability to pass other incredible boosts, such as Shift Gear, Quiver Dance, Shell Smash, etc., with such efficiency is also another problem of Smeargle, albeit its brokenness is more arguable in that respect.
Well honestly its a timing issue as well. You're making it sound as if Scolipede itself is inherently broken (It isn't)
Smeargle is honestly the genie here if there was one. So many moves now in this current meta-game carry such utility that it gives Smeargle such interesting options. 100% sleep, recovery, any stat boosting move.
But Geomancy is the culprit here solely because of the two moves it would take to use it being sliced in half. That split second move decision is the deciding factor. Getting one boost off is powerful enough on its own but then getting another one is at the fault of the person going up against it. (You would have time to realize "Oh shit, better change to something that can handle the incoming Espeon or at least kill smeargle before it boosts again."
Scolipede isn't nearly the culprit as much in these games, it's mostly just Smeargle and Espeon considering Geomancy gives the +2 to speed already. Lay off the bug if we're going to have an issue it's gotta be the artist.
Jimml pls, you ebin memester.
Anyways, as far as the whole BP thing goes, I think the best option would be to ban smeargle. It is the main problem in every bp team, and it is the best passer on these teams.
Awesome, so, we've come to a consensus that Smeargle is a HUGE perpetrator when it comes to Baton Passing. Glad we got that out of the way, however, does that alleviate the entirety of the problem? The last thing that needs to happen is we test Baton Pass for the fourth damn time. I know this may seem like a slippery slope, but the truth is, we need to cut the problem from its roots, and sadly, I don't believe Smeargle is the only problem child, he's just abuses it the easiest.
Now, I may be wrong, but, I'd be really upset if I weren't.
Now, I may be wrong, but, I'd be really upset if I weren't.
As Haunter loved to remind me, diversity in the metagame is not an inherently good thing. Lots of people in this thread are upset because there are too many threats to prepare for.
Quiver Dance and Shift Gear are literally half as good as Geomancy. It is the difference between a 80BP Stored Power and 160BP. Only Shell Smash competes with Geomancy, and that move has its own problems.
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You must be new here... Have you forgotten about this?
Anyway, I've made arguments on why BP is not inherently broken a few pages back. Look for my responses to WECAMEASROMANS' posts. I don't feel like repeating them.
I agree that we have taken multiple misteps (note that only 1 BP test actually happened, but we've had 4 discussion threads on it and it's been nerfed twice). However, what you should be aware of is that while Smeargle is obviously the biggest culprit here, there may be others. The best way to move forward is to take what we learned about Smeargle, why he's powerful and so on, and use that knowledge to examine other BPers to make sure that they are not broken.
I do understand and sympathize with your frustration though.
Note that just because one mon is less broken then the other does not make the former not broken. A good example would be greninja vs genesect. Genesect is definitely the stronger of the two, but Gren is still pretty broken.
That does not mean that Scolipede is necessarily broken, but I think there is a definite possibility he might be, as I argued waaaaay back here.
I want to to start this off by saying, this is not a pro ban or no ban argument in any way shape or form, I'm currently indifferent on the banning of smeargle, scolipede, and baton pass. I'm only here to try and get everyone on the same page by giving what information I know.
Now on to my actual post.
First off, it seems to me that there are a few reasons behind not banning smeargle and scolipede. One of them is the fact that they are both BL. They're not meta game defining, simply because very few people use them, it seems strange to ban something that's not meta defining because it makes it seem that they aren't broken, after all if they were, why aren't they used as often as proven non-broken pokes?
Now, the next reason is a little more complicated. It's the fact that smeargle and scolipede are so different from every other banned poke. The style of baton pass makes them different and therefore people don't know what to do with them. Most ban arguments are supported by arguing that they are similar to other banned pokes, like in the recent greninja ban people argued it was similar to mega luke, but smearle and scolipede are different; no poke has been banned solely for the use of baton pass, and no other banned poke is so weak. And it seems to me that that's the reason people want a complex ban. This is different from speed boost+blaziken and protean+greninja because smeargle will NEVER pull off a sweep on his own, scolipede will NEVER (well I guess it might, it's stats aren't that awful) pull off a sweep on his own, and by looking at the viability ranking of OU, you'll see that the criteria is based on the team support a pole needs. Smeargle and scolipede are that team support. They don't destroy the meta, they give other pokes the power to do so.
Now, the reason people don't want to ban baton pass. Baton pass is one of the few moves that has several uses, stat passing, pursuit escape, and momentum gaining too name a few. Most moves only serve one maybe two purposes but even in that case the two purposes are heavily related. The argument for not banning baton pass has the example of drizzle+swift swim ban, and I would like to delve a little bit more into why this is similar. Rain also has multiple uses, negating the thunder and hurricane accuracy check, boosting water moves, and swift swim and other rain boosted abilities. We decided that although one of these were broken, that not all of them were, and that these uses for rain were different and important to the meta and therefore we decided on a complex ban. Because rain was diverse and different. Just like baton pass.
Again I'd like to state that I'm neither on counter-ban, nor am I on pro-ban, I'm simply stating the information I've found.
Now on to my actual post.
First off, it seems to me that there are a few reasons behind not banning smeargle and scolipede. One of them is the fact that they are both BL. They're not meta game defining, simply because very few people use them, it seems strange to ban something that's not meta defining because it makes it seem that they aren't broken, after all if they were, why aren't they used as often as proven non-broken pokes?
Now, the next reason is a little more complicated. It's the fact that smeargle and scolipede are so different from every other banned poke. The style of baton pass makes them different and therefore people don't know what to do with them. Most ban arguments are supported by arguing that they are similar to other banned pokes, like in the recent greninja ban people argued it was similar to mega luke, but smearle and scolipede are different; no poke has been banned solely for the use of baton pass, and no other banned poke is so weak. And it seems to me that that's the reason people want a complex ban. This is different from speed boost+blaziken and protean+greninja because smeargle will NEVER pull off a sweep on his own, scolipede will NEVER (
Now, the reason people don't want to ban baton pass. Baton pass is one of the few moves that has several uses, stat passing, pursuit escape, and momentum gaining too name a few. Most moves only serve one maybe two purposes but even in that case the two purposes are heavily related. The argument for not banning baton pass has the example of drizzle+swift swim ban, and I would like to delve a little bit more into why this is similar. Rain also has multiple uses, negating the thunder and hurricane accuracy check, boosting water moves, and swift swim and other rain boosted abilities. We decided that although one of these were broken, that not all of them were, and that these uses for rain were different and important to the meta and therefore we decided on a complex ban. Because rain was diverse and different. Just like baton pass.
Again I'd like to state that I'm neither on counter-ban, nor am I on pro-ban, I'm simply stating the information I've found.
Firstly, there's a lot of stigma around BP. People call it skill-less, noob strategy, etc, so that probably has an effect. The main reason for their low usage, I think, is because those two mons demand a different sort of playstyle than people enjoy. I personally have zero desire to play BP, it isn't fun for me, and I believe many others feel the same way. How effective it is isn't related to how often it gets used, especially in this case.
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