ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final ORAS Update - Post #1164)

[QueenOfHax]

It's a liability against the entirety of the top 4. That fact alone should keep it out of S- unless we're considering parahax as a efficient means of checking which admittedly is true if you're a luck God but that generally isn't reliable.

Pdon = free switchin
Ekiller = para is almost beneficial since it can't get burned anymore
Xerneas = admittedly this is probably klefkis best matchup assuming non block geoxern AND even if it isn't then klefki still faints bar massive para hax. If it's non scarf/blockless geoxern then klefki is outright set up. though keys spikes on cm so I guess that somewhat cancels out.
Mence = carries refresh and/or EQ more often than not and it's really not that difficult for mence to find turns to refresh, and keys cannot safely switchin due to fear of Eq.

Moving alongside S rank, klefki is still food for ho oh and kyogre which is also a turn off since keys having so many common and prevalent threats stopping it isn't really good for S- rank. A+? Sure since it does provide utility but it's utility just simply isn't great enough for it to be S-

Edit: better than latis? Arguable but they do completely different roles and Latis are still technically more splashable. No way in hell is klefki more viable than ho oh though

All the top 4 mons can be screwed over by Klefki in a way or another:
P.Don: hates Toxic, not a safe switch in. Also vulnerable to Spikes.
Arceus: non Refresh/Lum Berry variants hate Toxic, other variants are forced to set up an extra turn if Klefki has Reflect. Hurt badly by Foul Play.
Xerneas: Klefki is the best Xerneas check in the game, I shouldn't even need to explain this. Block GeoXerneas is a gimmick in a tier where Mega Gengar exists and shouldn't even count.
Mence: hates Fairy STAB and suffers from the same issues as Arceus.

Ho-oh hates Thunder Wave/Toxic as well as Foul Play and Lati@s just flat out lose, so RestTalk P.Ogre is the only reliable counter to Klefki (purely offensive variants force Klefki out but will be crippled if they switch into status). A support pokemon that gives issues to almost the entirety of the S-ranked pokemon should be S-rank as well.

 

[Alexis Breeze]

can you explain why is MMX ranked lower than MMY? I'd argue non mega is better than both but why the distinction between the two?

 

[Kyuzeth]

can you explain why is MMX ranked lower than MMY? I'd argue non mega is better than both but why the distinction between the two?

Mega Mewtwo X is walled by and absolutely cannot switch in on Mega Salamence, one of the most dominant Pokémon in the tier. The opportunity cost compared to Mega Salamence is massive, as the dragon is a much more potent and dangerous Pokémon than MMX. Its Fairy weakness is another big problem, looking at how Xerneas is all over the place in Ubers. Mega Mewtwo X hates getting burned, too, and Lava Plume is a common move on defensive Primal Groudon, quite possibly the most common Pokémon in the entire tier. It's just not as good as its counterpart MMY, as Y has a slightly better Speed tier and far stronger coverage coming off of its base 194 Special Attack.

Edit: Yay 800th message

 

[Thugly Duckling]

Mega Mewtwo X is walled by and absolutely cannot switch in on Mega Salamence, one of the most dominant Pokémon in the tier. The opportunity cost compared to Mega Salamence is massive, as the dragon is a much more potent and dangerous Pokémon than MMX. Its Fairy weakness is another big problem, looking at how Xerneas is all over the place in Ubers. Mega Mewtwo X hates getting burned, too, and Lava Plume is a common move on defensive Primal Groudon, quite possibly the most common Pokémon in the entire tier. It's just not as good as its counterpart MMY, as Y has a slightly better Speed tier and far stronger coverage coming off of its base 194 Special Attack.

I agree with the premises that MMX is not the greatest Pokemon in this tier, but your argument is flawed. It first implies Mewtwo should be able to stay in / switch into Salamence, which it cannot, and in fact; Mewtwo has ways of getting around Mega Salamence, such as: Ice Beam and Ice punch (the latter OHKOes only if Mence has not gotten the intimidate drop on M2).

Secondly, a fairy weakness is not the sole reason MMX should not be used, I mean; hell, look at Salamence, it too has a fairy weakness, but look where it sits on this viability list. The main reason that isn't an issue is because, 1. it has blisteringly high speed to outpace all fairies (this is a quality Mewtwo possesses, I'll elaborate later why it does not help its case though); and, 2. it has an incredible secondary Flying STAB to smack around Fairies with. The issue with MMX is not the 2x weakness, it is having no reliable way of hitting Fairies; Iron tail is inaccurate, Zen Headbutt is balls weak.

What you said about MMX being prone to Will-o-wisp and burns is true, but using the viability of Lava Plume on Groudon is not proper evidence to state this. Mewtwo is not staying in on any Primal Groudon unless it is in a situation where it needs to weaken it for a teammate, such as Kyogre; and furthermore, Primal Groudon isn't going to switch into MMX in fear of a super effective Earthquake or chip damage from Low Kick (it needs to stay healthy for other threats such as Kyogre and Xerneas). MMX is not concerned much at all by Primal Groudon, its high defense can be a trouble, but MMX is a wallbreaker and is meant to weaken mons such as Primal Groudon. Instead, MMX is threatened by more direct burn users, such as; Arceus Ghost, and, Mega Sableye; but, MMX should be switching out of these anyways due to the severe type disadvantage.

The comparison you have given us between MMX and MMY is also flawed. These are two mons that do completely different things; one is strictly a physical attacker used early-midgame, while the other, is, in a sense, a mixed attacker and sometimes boosting sweeper meant to clean weakened teams. Both are used to break apart balanced teams, but it's easy to pick which Mewtwo form is needed on a team, depending on what you need to be lured and weakened for a teammate. The present opportunity cost of using one of these mons is not choosing between forms, it comes from being able to use a better mega, such as Gengar or Mence.

~

I'll leave some of my own thoughts on MMX later today, I have to go to work atm.

 

[Kyuzeth]

I agree with the premises that MMX is not the greatest Pokemon in this tier, but your argument is flawed. It first implies Mewtwo should be able to stay in / switch into Salamence, which it cannot, and in fact; Mewtwo has ways of getting around Mega Salamence, such as: Ice Beam and Ice punch (the latter OHKOes only if Mence has not gotten the intimidate drop on M2).

Secondly, a fairy weakness is not the sole reason MMX should not be used, I mean; hell, look at Salamence, it too has a fairy weakness, but look where it sits on this viability list. The main reason that isn't an issue is because, 1. it has blisteringly high speed to outpace all fairies (this is a quality Mewtwo possesses, I'll elaborate later why it does not help its case though); and, 2. it has an incredible secondary Flying STAB to smack around Fairies with. The issue with MMX is not the 2x weakness, it is having no reliable way of hitting Fairies; Iron tail is inaccurate, Zen Headbutt is balls weak.

What you said about MMX being prone to Will-o-wisp and burns is true, but using the viability of Lava Plume on Groudon is not proper evidence to state this. Mewtwo is not staying in on any Primal Groudon unless it is in a situation where it needs to weaken it for a teammate, such as Kyogre; and furthermore, Primal Groudon isn't going to switch into MMX in fear of a super effective Earthquake or chip damage from Low Kick (it needs to stay healthy for other threats such as Kyogre and Xerneas). MMX is not concerned much at all by Primal Groudon, its high defense can be a trouble, but MMX is a wallbreaker and is meant to weaken mons such as Primal Groudon. Instead, MMX is threatened by more direct burn users, such as; Arceus Ghost, and, Mega Sableye; but, MMX should be switching out of these anyways due to the severe type disadvantage.

The comparison you have given us between MMX and MMY is also flawed. These are two mons that do completely different things; one is strictly a physical attacker used early-midgame, while the other, is, in a sense, a mixed attacker and sometimes boosting sweeper meant to clean weakened teams. Both are used to break apart balanced teams, but it's easy to pick which Mewtwo form is needed on a team, depending on what you need to be lured and weakened for a teammate. The present opportunity cost of using one of these mons is not choosing between forms, it comes from being able to use a better mega, such as Gengar or Mence.

~

I'll leave some of my own thoughts on MMX later today, I have to go to work atm.

Thanks for shedding some light on MMX and pointing out the flaws in my argumentation. Looking back on it...yeah, it wasn't the greatest post, so thanks once again for the corrections and additions. I'm interested in what you'll have to say about it.

 

[Dilwar]

Mega Diancie -> A- to B+

I always felt this mon is overrated. It doesn't even fit definition of A- rank.

"This rank is reserved for Pokemon that may have great offensive or defensive capabilities. They tend to be the first to be considered for certain roles, but may need some support to function well."

Offensive capability: it's always limited here. Arceus - a Pokemon you'll see on 99% of teams wall this to hell and back, like even Darkceus can set up on it, rofl. Primal Kyogre, specifically the bulky variant which seems a lot more common now can counter it too. It's true that it's hard to switch into it otherwise with the rest of the mons in the tier, but the fact that every team packs an Arceus - be it Ekiller, Groundceus, Waterceus, Ghostceus or whatever means it struggles to punch holes in teams. Not to mention if it wants to improve its offensive capability there is a big opportunity cost. If it wants to go CM for example, it drops Protect, which is terrible since its Speed tier is absolute trash beforehand and its bulk after makes it so easy to OHKO. So yeah despite having great offense stats, the prevalence of Arceus really makes it struggle from an offensive standpoint. Also while 160 offenses are great, it lacks the ability to hold an item so it can't even hit that hard in Uber standards.

Defensive capability: rofl

Tend to be the first to be considered for certain roles: Eh, Mega Sableye generally seems to be a better Magic Bouncer for teams. It just anti-leads better with Fake Out, Taunt etc. Protect Diancie can easily be taken advantage of with how painfully obvious a turn 1 Protect to "anti-lead" is. Point is that it's not "generally considered to be first for a certain role", as it faces pretty tough competition from Sableye.

It's pretty useless against Hyper Offense, the most it can do is get off one attack before being OHKOd back, or any attack at all depending on what mon it's up against. Sure it can anti-lead but it can struggle to even do that. Skill Swap Deo has a way past it and Forretress forces it out.

So yeah I don't really see what of these definitions it properly fits. I guess I could also mention the classic "using this means no Mega Salamence."

 

[Mr.378]

I highly agree with the above. In fact I would go as far to say it should be in B. Mega Diancie just isn't that good for the reasons already outlined and Mega Sableye is just better usually. There are a few the or things I would like to move but I'll just bring up two of them:

• Palkia to C+: Simply put, why would you ever want to use this? The Latis completely outclass it and it can't even reliably check Primal-Kyogre. It has no discernible use in the tier and thus doesn't deserve even B-Rank.
• Arceus-Psychic to D: It's bad. There is no reason to waste your Arceus form on it while others like Ghost exist. As such it deserves placement with the likes of Bug and Fire.
• Mega Salamence to S+: It's the best.

 

[ApplepieFTW]

I dont think you can at all compare msab to diancie. yeah sure they may have magic bounce which has somewhat similar effects on the defensive side, but in reality the ability lets both of em beat things like keys and bounce back status and thats as far as it goes. the mons are 100% different and you cant just say "msab is a better bouncer" without saying "msab is a better mon" because the bounce part isnt what makes makes or breaks diancie. what breaks it is that it just doesnt do much at all. it has limited defensive capabilities, most things it does will often be already covered to some degree and you wont need diancie to do you it better for you.

thing that matters is, diancie sux and it should feel bad for suking because it doesnt do that much. what a lame kid. to b+ or b-mid I say!

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I'd say Palkia is still decent, its Lustrous Orb set still packs pretty powerful offensive capabilities with a nice STAB combo, Lustrous Orb boosted Hydro Pump and Spacial Rend do pretty decent work most of the time. I know it used to be a really high tier mon (A+ man) and has taken a huge fall since, but I find that it still works pretty potently. It 2HKOes PDon with Lustrous Orb Spacial Rend and I guess it can be a decent offensive check to Ho-Oh and the like, and with a set of Spacial Rend / Hydro Pump / Fire Blast / Thunder Wave it's pretty threatening, Fire Blast will basically roast Ferrothorn alive and the like along with other steels like Jirachi and Aegislash, and catching things like Xerneas and other faster mons with Thunder Wave is pretty nice. Its offensive capabilities are still pretty good since with those three moves nothing can really comfortably take it on and it's pretty dangerous overall, and having something like Thunder Wave in that last slot is always nice.

My biggest gripe with Palkia from my use of it lately is that has little defensive capability in this meta, in other words, it barely is capable of checking any relevant threats in terms of the defensive end of things. But its offensive capabilities are still pretty nice. I guess it could drop (maybe to B-) since it is rather hard to fit Palkia on a team, but it's still pretty potent offensively, so i guess I wouldn't put it too far down below Zekrom and Kyurem-W. That's just my opinion though. It's definitely a lot worse than the Latis, but after all it's almost two whole ranks below them so...

I never used Mega Diancie much nor have I particularly liked it in Ubers, it's so frail and offensively is kind of easy to deal with for the reasons Dilwar said.

Never used Arceus-Psychic but I'm not convinced it's good, so D Rank is reasonable. I mean it's as useless as Reshiram whom I'd never use either tbh.

Also perhaps Greninja might deserve a drop? It hasn't gotten worse in its primary role (Spiker), but Custap Forretress is a thing now, which definitely does the role much more effectively than Greninja can. It's certainly not bad at setting up Spikes and Toxic Spikes, but Forretress is usually better since it can take on some of the Taunt users with Gyro Ball and Custap allows it a quick layer off the bat. It can also occasionally spin hazards too. Yeah I can't explain much tbh but Greninja could deserve a drop due to its role facing competition from Forretress.

 

[Nayrz]

Update time boys, very late Sunday night is still Monday!

Change List:

Scizor-Mega: B >>>> B-
Diancie-Mega: A- >>>> B+
Arceus-Psychic: C >>>> D

Not Changed/Ranked:

Beedrill-Mega: Bad Genesect, takes up mega slot, easily walled/forced out
Palkia: While its defensive niche is lacking in the tier, its offensive abilities haven't changed. Latis going Modest these days actually helps Palkia, and its still a pain in the ass to switch into.
Landorus-I: Still needs some more discussion to finalize if it is truly viable or not.

Discussion Points:

Mega Salamence: S >>>> S+ - There have been whispers of this wanted change throughout the community, and its time to bring it to light. Most other Megas in the tier are looked down at simply because it isn't Salamence, and any other Mega prevents you using Mega Salamence. Its defensive capabilities are as great as its offensive ones, as it checks three very threatening mons in Ho-Oh, Primal Groudon and Arceus-Normal for offensive teams (all S rank mons!) all while having similar power levels to the dreaded Mega Rayquaza when using the Adamant Double-Edge set. Its also turned the metagame around it a fair amount - Shuca Berry on Dialga and Tyranitar are more viable options due to the existence of Salamence, and Arceus-Water will sometimes give up Judgment just to check it. A newly shown Primal Groudon set uses Dragon Pulse, just to surprise Salamence. The question is - Does it match up in the same category as Primal Groudon?

 

[Dilwar]

I'd probably agree with Mence to S+.

When we look at Primal Groudon, we praise it for its splashability, its ability to check numerous threats, its ability to set hazards, its ability to run very effective offensive sets, and its ability to wallbreak. These are pretty much the reasons it is ranked at S+, as it can do so many things effectively, and threaten such a huge portion of the meta.

If we compare this to Mence, well Mence is extremely splashable - such to the point that it's a common phrase when using other megas that they have the "opportunity cost of not using Mence." While this can get boring to hear, it is a justified saying because of how true it is. Where Primal Groudon checks numerous threats like GeoXern, Primal Kyogre, Mence (soft check with D-Tail), Mewtwo and others, Mence can check equally prominent threats in Primal Groudon, Ho-oh, Ekiller (big one), and a plethora of physical attackers in the tier, including ITSELF with a bulky set (can phase with DTail). So both share the traits of extreme splashability and checking ability. On the hazard side, while Pdon can set rocks, Mence can remove hazards. On the offensive sets, well I don't think I have to explain. It has better boosting moves than P-Don in Dragon Dance, a better STAB (Aerilate is ridiculous), and Refresh and Roost. Refresh and Roost are huge. P-Don may check many things, but it's incredibly easy to wear down due to lack of any recovery whatsoever. Mence on the other hand has Roost to alleviate such problems, and Refresh is just amazing as it destroys fatter teams. So going back to the point of the ability to check so many threats, while P-Don can check a cool list of Pokemon, it is at a huge disadvantage due to lack of recovery - such to the point that it's simply not good to have P-Don as your only Xern check. These problems do not exist with Mega Salamence as it has recovery and cleric abilities, and while they can take up moveslots, Flying + Ground is amazing coverage that it hardly matters. Wallbreaking wise, well both are extremely potent at doing such things. Versatility wise, both are just as versatile each other, being able to perform both offensive and defensive sets.

So to conclude, while P-Don can brag about doing so many wonderful things, Mence can brag about doing equally wonderful things. P-Don does have advantages however in not taking up a mega slot (yes Mence may be the best mega but there is still a little cost) and not being weak to rocks, but Mence has its own set of advantages such as not being worn down easily, Intimidate pre-mega, a nice ground immunity and a much better Speed tier. They both just seem on the same level - PDon lacks any counters, although Mence may in Skarm and Rhyperior, these are very rare and often kinda niche Pokemon. They both check a big amount of threats and both are very versatile. I don't really see what makes PDon objectively better.

 

[gepesek]

Mega Salamence: Well, I think this guy should stay S rank. One thing that doesn't admit discussion is Salamence change the metagame a lot, being the most dominant pokemon after Primal Groudon, we all can agree on that. However MegaMence still have his weak points. Since he can chek Pdon and Arceus, i still think Salamence is afraid to switch in Ho-Oh's SacreFire/potential burn that criple his Attack. Running Refresh to avoid this means losing a slot for coverage, being Dragon Dance or Earthquake most of the time and also the turn to refresh means a free switching for PKyogre, Choice Scarf Xerneas or even Latias who can OHKO whit super efective move. Obviously all of this before MegaMence do a Drangon Dance. That means Salamence hates paralysis, and using Substitute is key to avoid this. Another slot? yes. This result sometimes in a Double Edge mono attacker, wich can be a killing machine, but leaves Mence walled by Steel types. Primal Groudon is practically imposible to wall, being Lati@s the closest thing to do this. Also MegaMence has a 4x weaknes, somethin Pdon and MegaRayquaza don't have, plus Stealth Rock weakness. This can sound stupid, but Salamence also need the turn to megaevolve where he can be outspeed from pokemon mentioned above, and always need a free switch-in to enter the battlefield, something that Primal Groudon doesn't need to worry about. What i'm trying to say is Salamence is a fucking beast, but at the same level as Xerneas and Arceus, pokemon that can play offenive/defensive/support sets like Salamence, but still are some ways to deal against him. I still think Primal Groudon and MegaRayquaza are one step above MegaMence Xerneas and Arceus

Landorus I: i was the one who start the discussion, and after seeing the opinions of other people, i think C rank will be OK. Good offensive capavilities, 0 defenses. Also I speak a lot of Landorus I above xD

 

[Magcargo]

Any reason Mega Lucario isn't C- or D-Rank yet? It has virtually no switch in opportunities due to its terrible bulk, has a huge amount of opportunity cost, and is overshadowed by multiple Pokemon above it.

I'm also wondering as to why Mega blaziken isn't lower as well. Its slightly better then mega lucario thanks to Speed boost, but suffers from the same core issues (primarily being unable to use mega salamence)..

 

[mertyville]

Not going against Salamence usefullness but isn't the oppotunity cost of using MegaMence a big deal compared to Primal-Groudon?
The only thing you are missing out when using Primal-Groudon would be the ability to use normal Groudon while Mega-Mence prevents you from using probobly still relevant Megas such as Mega-Gengar, Mega-Scizor or Mega-Sableye.

 

[Fireburn]

Mega Salamence can't really be relied upon as an EKiller check due to their tendency in ORAS to run Stone Edge (which is also useful against other things such as Yveltal and Lugia), and switching in on Ho-Oh is extremely risky business as Sacred Fire burns + TWave will cripple it (unless you run Refresh but then you give up Earthquake ergo the ability to potentially beat Flying resists). It's best use defensively is switching in on Primal Groudon, which it still can't really set up on as they always carry phazing moves. And aside from those three Pokemon, it can't really claim to check much else defensive. Mence's defensive capabilities are somewhat overstated, I feel. It may be the best Mega, but it's not always a shoo-in for offensive teams since it's not like the other Mega Pokemon suck (Gengar is still very good, Mewtwo is good, etc) and defensive teams usually prefer Diancie or Sableye for the utility of Magic Bounce. In contrast, Primal Groudon has a place on literally every team archetype which includes its myriad defensive + support uses on bulkier teams that pushes it over the edge to S+ - Mega Salamence can't quite claim that as it's defensive uses in a practical sense are limited outside of mostly Primal Groudon (which is a very good reason, but only one mon out of 6 on a team).

S+ should be for PDon and PDon alone, I feel.

 

[dice]

mence has the opportunity cost of other megas and necessitates defog / spin support on any balanced team

pdon is the only s+ mon

 

[yohoE]

there shouldn't be s+ at all!

 

[Haruno]

Pdon also tends to run dpulse (or at least it does in teams I have) which makes mence's position as a don check questionable since special pdon is solid.

 

[MegaTias]

Darkrai------------->S-

Darkrai @ Focus Sash/Life Orb
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Void
- Dark Pulse
- Nasty Plot
- Focus Sash

Darkrai dismantles practically any lead that there is with Dark Void. You practically have to run Sleep Talk on something or sack off a Pokemon. With great base 125 speed, it outspeeds a lot of the tier. The only viable things that can outspeed it is a Prankster T-wave from Klefki, Deoxys-S, and Deoxys-A. It can Dark Void the opposing lead and get a quick Nasty Plot off, then proceed to sweep. It has a good typing in pure Dark, as Fighting and Bug-type Pokemon are rare in the tier. The only Fairy-types to fear are Xerneas and(sometimes) Sylveon and Clefable. Look at these calcs:

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Klefki: 274-324 (86.4 - 102.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Bad Dreams Damage
252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-S: 382-452 (158.5 - 187.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Deoxys-D: 359-424 (118 - 139.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Deoxys-D: 179-213 (59 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As you can see from these calcs, Darkrai is definitely the best Anti-Lead in the tier, and definitely should be considered for S- or even S.

EDIT: It took me like an hour to write this so if no one responds I'm gonna be pretty damn mad.

DOUBLE EDIT:
Mence should stay S.

To be honest Mega Mence has been kinda underwhelming. It's base 130 defense is generally just tricking you into thinking that you can survive an Outrage or something. Look at these calcs:
252 Atk Haxorus Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Salamence: 342-404 (103.3 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Mega Salamence Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Salamence: 338-402 (102.1 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It even loses to itself. I quickly constructed a MegaMence team and it hasn't had a chance to set up. It needs Substitute to safely Mega Evolve, and Return doesn't hit many relevant threats super effectively.

 

[Thugly Duckling]

Darkrai------------->S-

Darkrai @ Focus Sash/Life Orb
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Void
- Dark Pulse
- Nasty Plot
- Focus Sash

Darkrai dismantles practically any lead that there is with Dark Void. You practically have to run Sleep Talk on something or sack off a Pokemon. With great base 125 speed, it outspeeds a lot of the tier. The only viable things that can outspeed it is a Prankster T-wave from Klefki, Deoxys-S, and Deoxys-A. It can Dark Void the opposing lead and get a quick Nasty Plot off, then proceed to sweep. It has a good typing in pure Dark, as Fighting and Bug-type Pokemon are rare in the tier. The only Fairy-types to fear are Xerneas and(sometimes) Sylveon and Clefable. Look at these calcs:

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Klefki: 274-324 (86.4 - 102.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Bad Dreams Damage
252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-S: 382-452 (158.5 - 187.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Deoxys-D: 359-424 (118 - 139.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Deoxys-D: 179-213 (59 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As you can see from these calcs, Darkrai is definitely the best Anti-Lead in the tier, and definitely should be considered for S- or even S.

EDIT: It took me like an hour to write this so if no one responds I'm gonna be pretty damn mad.

O_O

 

[gepesek]

Darkrai------------->S-

Darkrai @ Focus Sash/Life Orb
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Void
- Dark Pulse
- Nasty Plot
- Focus Sash

Darkrai dismantles practically any lead that there is with Dark Void. You practically have to run Sleep Talk on something or sack off a Pokemon. With great base 125 speed, it outspeeds a lot of the tier. The only viable things that can outspeed it is a Prankster T-wave from Klefki, Deoxys-S, and Deoxys-A. It can Dark Void the opposing lead and get a quick Nasty Plot off, then proceed to sweep. It has a good typing in pure Dark, as Fighting and Bug-type Pokemon are rare in the tier. The only Fairy-types to fear are Xerneas and(sometimes) Sylveon and Clefable. Look at these calcs:

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Klefki: 274-324 (86.4 - 102.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Bad Dreams Damage
252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-S: 382-452 (158.5 - 187.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Deoxys-D: 359-424 (118 - 139.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Deoxys-D: 179-213 (59 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As you can see from these calcs, Darkrai is definitely the best Anti-Lead in the tier, and definitely should be considered for S- or even S.

Well, i think you need more than this to be S rank. If we take a look at S ranked pokemons, we see all of them can perfom multiple role or sets, offensive/defensive/support, but then look at Darkrai. Darkrai being very annoying, is the most predictable pokemon ever. As Darkrai is always a lead, start the battle with Mewtwo, Klefki, Prankster Taunt, Magic Bouncers or any scarf pokemon put you in a position of 6 vs 5 in only 1 or 2 turns. Darkrai can perfome ONE role very well, but ther're a lot of ways to deal with it. Also I think Darkrai is a pokemon for noobs and lazy trainers

 

[Aberforth]

Darkrai------------->S-

Darkrai @ Focus Sash/Life Orb
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Void
- Dark Pulse
- Nasty Plot
- Focus Sash

Darkrai dismantles practically any lead that there is with Dark Void. You practically have to run Sleep Talk on something or sack off a Pokemon. With great base 125 speed, it outspeeds a lot of the tier. The only viable things that can outspeed it is a Prankster T-wave from Klefki, Deoxys-S, and Deoxys-A. It can Dark Void the opposing lead and get a quick Nasty Plot off, then proceed to sweep. It has a good typing in pure Dark, as Fighting and Bug-type Pokemon are rare in the tier. The only Fairy-types to fear are Xerneas and(sometimes) Sylveon and Clefable. Look at these calcs:

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Klefki: 274-324 (86.4 - 102.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Bad Dreams Damage
252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-S: 382-452 (158.5 - 187.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Deoxys-D: 359-424 (118 - 139.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Deoxys-D: 179-213 (59 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As you can see from these calcs, Darkrai is definitely the best Anti-Lead in the tier, and definitely should be considered for S- or even S.

EDIT: It took me like an hour to write this so if no one responds I'm gonna be pretty damn mad.

DOUBLE EDIT:
Mence should stay S.

To be honest Mega Mence has been kinda underwhelming. It's base 130 defense is generally just tricking you into thinking that you can survive an Outrage or something. Look at these calcs:
252 Atk Haxorus Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Salamence: 342-404 (103.3 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Mega Salamence Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Salamence: 338-402 (102.1 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It even loses to itself. I quickly constructed a MegaMence team and it hasn't had a chance to set up. It needs Substitute to safely Mega Evolve, and Return doesn't hit many relevant threats super effectively.

OK, serious response before sleep, everyone knows what darkrai does, but it is predictable and very frail, and generally only fits onto one build (HO). The mons in S all are capable of fulfilling many roles, which darkrai just doesn't do. If you want it to move up, explain why it deserves to move up a rank rather than repeating what we already know. Darkrai is too frail, too easily revenge killed, and loses to too many mons for me to support placing it in S or S-.

As for Mence being underwhelming, and defense tricking you... yeah no. 1) your calcs are wrong, mence tend to run hp investment, 2) outrage isn't a good move on mence due to giving Xerneas a free turn and not really hitting anything relevant, 3) it really doesn't need sub for a free mega, 4) if you dont like return use double edge, 5) flying stab isn't great because of what it hits super effectively, but it is great because of how rare its resists are, all of which are weak to the common earthquake, 6) Salamence run adamant. Underwhelming is not the term to describe it.

EDIT: If you do think Darkrai deserves S-, feel free to respond, but expand on why its weaknesses and frailty are not enough of a reason for it not to be S-, akin to ho-oh's stealth rock weakness not being enough to stop it from being S-. We know what it does, why is it that what it does makes it good enough for S-, and why are its weak points not bad enough that it should stay in A+.

 

[Sebberball]

DOUBLE EDIT:
Mence should stay S.

To be honest Mega Mence has been kinda underwhelming. It's base 130 defense is generally just tricking you into thinking that you can survive an Outrage or something. Look at these calcs:
252 Atk Haxorus Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Salamence: 342-404 (103.3 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Mega Salamence Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Salamence: 338-402 (102.1 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It even loses to itself. I quickly constructed a MegaMence team and it hasn't had a chance to set up. It needs Substitute to safely Mega Evolve, and Return doesn't hit many relevant threats super effectively.

It doesn't need to run return, it has moves like Double-Edge for this, and there are many ways to exploit megamence's powers, you can run protect, or you can be safe and run substitute with Dragon Dance to set up, Mega menace is a kind of usage Pokemon, you have to learn how to use it before anything (not saying you don't know, just saying there are varied ways to use it) it has many team options, it can be used as a setup sweeper in the beginning of a match, or it can be used as a cleaner late game, I've sen it as a wall, et cetera et cetera. But you need to know when to mega or when not to mega to use it effectively...


Don't yell at me please.

 

[MegaTias]

It doesn't need to run return, it has moves like Double-Edge for this, and there are many ways to exploit megamence's powers, you can run protect, or you can be safe and run substitute with Dragon Dance to set up, Mega menace is a kind of usage Pokemon, you have to learn how to use it before anything (not saying you don't know, just saying there are varied ways to use it) it has many team options, it can be used as a setup sweeper in the beginning of a match, or it can be used as a cleaner late game, I've sen it as a wall, et cetera et cetera. But you need to know when to mega or when not to mega to use it effectively...


Don't yell at me please.

OK, serious response before sleep, everyone knows what darkrai does, but it is predictable and very frail, and generally only fits onto one build (HO). The mons in S all are capable of fulfilling many roles, which darkrai just doesn't do. If you want it to move up, explain why it deserves to move up a rank rather than repeating what we already know. Darkrai is too frail, too easily revenge killed, and loses to too many mons for me to support placing it in S or S-.

As for Mence being underwhelming, and defense tricking you... yeah no. 1) your calcs are wrong, mence tend to run hp investment, 2) outrage isn't a good move on mence due to giving Xerneas a free turn and not really hitting anything relevant, 3) it really doesn't need sub for a free mega, 4) if you dont like return use double edge, 5) flying stab isn't great because of what it hits super effectively, but it is great because of how rare its resists are, all of which are weak to the common earthquake, 6) Salamence run adamant. Underwhelming is not the term to describe it.

EDIT: If you do think Darkrai deserves S-, feel free to respond, but expand on why its weaknesses and frailty are not enough of a reason for it not to be S-, akin to ho-oh's stealth rock weakness not being enough to stop it from being S-. We know what it does, why is it that what it does makes it good enough for S-, and why are its weak points not bad enough that it should stay in A+.

Well, i think you need more than this to be S rank. If we take a look at S ranked pokemons, we see all of them can perfom multiple role or sets, offensive/defensive/support, but then look at Darkrai. Darkrai being very annoying, is the most predictable pokemon ever. As Darkrai is always a lead, start the battle with Mewtwo, Klefki, Prankster Taunt, Magic Bouncers or any scarf pokemon put you in a position of 6 vs 5 in only 1 or 2 turns. Darkrai can perfome ONE role very well, but ther're a lot of ways to deal with it. Also I think Darkrai is a pokemon for noobs and lazy trainers

Well, I tried at least..... OK, fine, I don't have very good reasons.. call me a noob... I'm ready to deal with it....

 

[Aberforth]

It's fine to make nominations and have opinions, you were just looking at it slightly wrong in your execution. Stick around, having people who try is always a good thing.