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ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final ORAS Update - Post #1164)

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Basically a skype nom between Shrang myself and dice, Ekiller from S to A+.

Ekiller can only really fit on very offensive teams reliably. While it can fit on Bulky Offense and such, they generally prefer an Arceus Forme that offers better defensive Utility, such as Arceus-Ground or Arceus-Ghost, whereas it is almost never seen on balance/stall and for good reason. The Defogceus role is too important on those teams to generally give up for something that can switch into very little and is prepared for by every team. And while every team does prepare for ekiller, and that is a sign of metagame dominance, every team prepares for Darkrai and Sableye and stuff and arguably prepares a lot more and a lot harder. Not only that, there are a large number of ekiller checks that are very prevelant and very good. Salamence, Gengar, Sableye, Lugia, Ghostceus, Skarmory, ext are all good mons and handle Ekiller well the large majority of the time (shitty gimmicks aside).

Not only is it prepared for and not as splashable as the likes of Ho-oh or Xern or Mence, it also has a much larger opportunity cost than the former two (and arguably the latter) by nature of it being an Arceus Forme. Using it means you cannot use any other Arceus forme, which we have 5 others in B+ rank and above.

A+ is not a bad rank, but ekiller isn't as good as the other 3, by a substantial enough margin I'd say drop him.
 
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dragonite drake said:
I like diance, but Sableye outclasses it! The pre-evolution prankster+willo-willps! Its only weakness is to fairy and stalls cant to anything to this guy!(ferrot can OHKO diance with gyro). While sableye cant hit hard, so cant the opposing pokemon against sableye! But diance has its atvantages of have bulk+offensive capabilities! hence A- is ok
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What the hell? You can't even compare the two. Comparing Mega Diancie to Mega Sableye is like comparing an apple to an orange: You can't, as they're completely different. While Diancie is KO'd by Ferrothorn fuck that thing, a player with even a little bit of common sense wouldn't have Diancie stay in against a Ferrothorn.

The only things Mega Diancie and Mega Sableye have in common is that they are associated with jewels, they have Magic Bounce, and they're Megas introduced in ORAS. That's it. That's literally it. They're completely different in typing, stats, and roles. Mega Diancie is an offensive Pokemon, while Mega Sableye is a defensive one. You can't say Mega Diancie is outclassed by Mega Sableye because they're completely different Pokemon.
 
dragonite drake said:
I like diance, but Sableye outclasses it! The pre-evolution prankster+willo-willps! Its only weakness is to fairy and stalls cant to anything to this guy!(ferrot can OHKO diance with gyro). While sableye cant hit hard, so cant the opposing pokemon against sableye! But diance has its atvantages of have bulk+offensive capabilities! hence A- is ok
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I'm going to politely say why most of this isn't true.

-Sableye is a defensive wall and Diancie is a mixed attacker. The only way you can compare them is as Magic Bounce Mega Evolutions.
-Sableye NEEDS to Mega Evolve soon; Prankster is cool but the severely reduced bulk isn't worth it for priority on status moves when Sableye just gets KO'd easier.
-Sableye's one weakness is perhaps it's greatest flaw. Nothing Sableye commonly runs allows it to circumvent Fairies(Will O Wisp can help against the rare Mega Mawile but that's not saying much), and Xerneas is a very common Pokemon, able to get around burns(which don't even affect Xern outside of health loss) with Aromatherapy/Rest and only really affected by the rare Knock Off.
-Ferrothorn can OHKO Diancie with Gyro Ball, but Diancie can always just switch out to something like Ho-Oh(a common Diancie partner), or if it's really feeling insecure, run Hidden Power Fire to roast Ferrothorn. It's not a picture perfect counter, just a check.
-A lot more threats(common threats to boot) can get past Sableye than you think. Darkrai can 2HKO with unboosted LO Dark Pulse(an OHKO if boosted), basically every Fairy can kill off Sableye easily, Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh don't give a damn about anything Sableye does(Ho-Oh doesn't like Knock Off) and can kill it easily since Sableye is too slow to repeatedly Recover or Foul Play against them, Kyogre at worst 2HKOs with any attack, even uninvested Scald, Rayquaza 2HKOs with Dragon Ascent provided it's not burned also heatran dumps all over Sableye but everyone hates it...a lot of examples can be brought up.
-Mega Diancie has some bulk, but it really isn't that bulky when not invested. It's defensive stats drop heavily in favor of attacking stats, it's weak to the most common coverage in the tier(Ground) as well as Water and Grass plus is only neutral to Poison and Fighting, and is quad-weak to Steel, which can be exploited against it.

I'm neutral for a Diancie raise(though the reasoning SheWentToJarod's post provides is convincing enough), but saying it should stay on the grounds of your reasoning is just...wrong.
 
PoMMan said:
Basically a skype nom between Shrang myself and dice, Ekiller from S to A+.
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Seriously though, this is out of question. Extreme Killer is one of the most powerful Pokemon in the tier and easily deserves S rank. It's a great revenge killer, very splashable on offense, and a huge threat to any offensive team. It's very easy for it to set up with its bulk too. I don't get what you just did at all.
 
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Honestly, I would never put Arceus Normal in A+. Arceus is just so easy to fit on offensive teams and I think you're underestimating how much it actually helps offensive teams simply by being able to finish off tons of stuff with espeed(mewtwo, ray, darkrai, arceus, xern, deo-a and some other stuff). It does what it's supposed to do reliably and is easier to build around than Darkrai, which is A+, for sure. If a mon like Ho-oh, which needs quite some support, can be S rank, Arceus Normal should be too.
 
Ho-oh is just a lot more splashable and easy to fit on a team than Ekiller is though. And if we're talking about how good stuff is for Offense, I'd argue Darkrai should be in S before Ekiller is. Yes it isn't as splashable as ekiller, but it is so much more dangerous.

EDIT: At ragey's edit, my whole point is that it isn't that hugely splashable on offensive teams outside of the most hyper of offenses because of its next to useless defensive synergy, and it isn't strong enough to be s on its own cause of how numerous, good and splashable its checks are.
 
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???

How is it's defensive synergy next to useless when it picks off a ton of threats with it's espeed? If we're really going to drop offensive threats for having limited defensive synergy then I think we'd better change a lot of this list. Real talk, the way offense deals with boosted threats like Xern is hitting it hard while it sets up then picking it off with ekiller. Yeah it doesn't switch into threats all too well but then what on offense does? It certainly isn't next to useless though!

You talk about those checks but Lugia drops to +2 Ada Stone Edge after rocks, Mence doesnt love LO boosted edges either, Gar ok but gar is literally forced to run tect to check it which significantly pressures it's moveslots on all but Perish trapper(it also never switches in unless you have another check in the back or you have balls of steel). Defensive Ghosty is not a splashable check lol, I literally barely ever see this thing because of how Ho-oh weak it tends to make the balances it gets put on.

A metric that's been brought up before in determining some of these rankings is has the mon ever been used on a widely used and successful team? I don't feel like I really need to answer this lol. Pretty sure I'm not alone in thinking the most widely used and arguably most effective offensive team wouldn't function nearly as well without ekiller.
 
Yes, but its not like A+ is a bad position. The same team you're on about would be significantly worse without Darkrai and it is also A+.

Also, yeah it checks faster frailer mons (not fantastically in some cases, but it does check them) but it isn't nearly good enough vs other stuff to be considered S. Yeah lugia hates +2 ada stone edge after rocks (ignoring the fact that hazard control has never been easier than in ORAS) but it first needs to get past Sableye without getting burnt or dead to foul play + life orb recoil. Also, its really pressed for moves. Without shadow claw, gira-o and ghostceus and stuff have a nice time, without EQ you cant do enough to PDon or the steels/rocks that take you on and its also leaving it no room for the more niche options like magic coat which has been gaining popularity for no good reason.
 
Another one. I'm gonna use haxiom's list (edited a little to reflect other posts) so far as thats the only one that really sorted out B-/C+, and disagreements are ideal as i'd imagine most users would prefer to speak for a specific mons' raise/drop than argue for it against the entirety of B-/C+ and say where it fits in.

Quick note regarding Arceus-Normal, the support to keep it S has been stronger than the support to A+, so there it stays. It was a sound argument on both sides, but as already mentioned, Extreme Speed alone can be seen as 'defensive capabilities' for an offensive team, meaning that the requirements for S can be applied to it.

Updated Elsewhere

Mega Diancie (A- > A)
Now sits above Arceus-Ghost

Updated B- Order

Cloyster
Scolipede
Arceus-Dark
Mega Slowbro
Arceus-Ice
Landorus-T
Clefable
Greninja
Blaziken

Mega Scizor moves down to C+

Updated C+ Order

Alomomola
Mega Tyranitar
Arceus-Fairy
Mega Scizor
Forretress
Kyurem-White
Tentacruel
Mega Aerodactyl
Mega Blaziken
Gothitelle
Groudon
Smeargle


The next week can continue to sort out C+/B- orders, but mid C and C- are also open to discussion. No, D rank is not on the table. Mid-low C should quench any thirst for shitmon discussion. As a side note, UPL starts tomorrow! Be sure to keep an eye out for your favorite (or own) teams oO
 
Forgive me for veing bad as I never see the thing but what merits fightceus being 2nd in C?
What makes it better then gene or grassy
 
Oh yes thats exactly what were discussing right lol
Pfft

Anyways I think
-Grassy
-Lop
-Poisonceus
-Eleceus
-Gene
-Fightceus

The last 3 can be shuffled probably but this is what I'm seeing right off the bat
On mobile rn so I'll actually put in reasoning later
 
Should we even really be ordering these mons? Dice posted a while ago that the ranking was getting pretty arbitrary because indeed no one really uses these mons, and that was back in b- and he was right back then. Yeah they are of course 'viable' but used so rarely that it's hard to rank them according to viability which is of course largely supposed to be define by how much you can use that mon effectively. And quite frankly, you can't really use almost all of these mons effectively (fightceus, gene, etc). C+ also had this problem, the ranking is more of a educated guess, they're sort of right but no one would be able to agree if arceus ice should go above lando-t or below because no one cares because they're pretty fucking shit. Do we really gain from ranking them? Aren't you just better of saying "these weren't ordered because it would be too arbitrary doing so as these mons are used only seldom" or something like that. I for one wouldn't be able to justify why posionceus is that much better or worse than genesect... because who knows it might be or it might not be. Neither is really used, so how can we even rank them outside of "meh it's about as good as the rest" (why these mons ended up below c+ in the first place!)
 
I really dont think it matters all too much as like you said, nobody uses these things even remotely often, but it would be nice to have I guess just for the sake of order.


The thing with rankings this low is that viability here is contingent upon how niche they are. The only things we have as a baseline are the arc formed as they're all most likely support so you could just take a look at them and see which one might theoretically do more in any given match.

But mons like these dont perform well in any given match. 90% of their usage is probably in either the low ladder where players dont know any better or in tours where they perform vs one specific team youre aiming to beat.
This is hard and probably arbitrary
 
so something like:

grasseus
eleceus
gira a
gene
fightceus
poisonceus
lop

gira a
ditto
mawile
flyceus
steelceus ?

gira a is much more useworthy than... the rest of c-. it checks some pdon variants sort of okay and it check ekiller sort of okay and it checks (the best offensive, which is physical, :] ) kyogre. so uhh yeah that's pretty nice. there's a CLEAR cutoff below genesect though. those mons suck D:
 
Mawile is better than ditto. Other than that dont care.

Also move palkia up its better than steel and flyceus and I think its better than ditto too. Not as good as mawile though.
 
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Ditto is very bad but I'll always support it being ranked at least as high as Mawile (puke) due to its ability to CT people who think the sample team is broken. I've actually considered using Ditto before, whereas I'd never use Mawile in a tournament game, ever.

At least Ditto matches up well vs a specific team archetype (as much as it hates people that use ghostceus > ekiller).
 
Alright, let's finish up the shitmon discussions. The lack of posts means Fireburn and I made a couple changes to posts already made to 'finalize' the rankings - seems people would rather move on from the arbitrariness of the low ranks so I doubt there will be objections.

Updated C Order

Palkia - Returns from the (D)ead! This has been hinted at a couple times in the past, but expect to see a post from Fireburn further going into this later.
Arceus-Grass
Mega Lopunny
Arceus-Electric
Genesect
Arceus-Fighting
Arceus-Poison

Updated C- Order

Giratina
Ditto
Mega Mawile
Arceus-Flying
Arceus-Steel

And with that the "sorted by viability" rankings are concluded. From here on out, posts are welcomed related to any mon in the rankings, even if it's just to move a mon above another. Thanks to all for the contributions in getting this sorted!
 
So we did put it in C for now, but I'm actually gonna propose that Palkia and Kyurem-W switch places...so Palkia goes to C+ and Kyurem-W goes to the top of C.

Basically it's because I feel like Palkia is better at Kyurem-W's job. Kyurem-W's intended purpose is to break stall and be a really threatening special nuke, but it often fails at this since it gets owned by hazards and can't break Blissey. In contrast, Palkia doesn't fear hazards as much and can blow through Blissey with Focus Punch. Palkia even enjoys more defensive utility because it can actually check a common relevant threat (Primal Kyogre) sort of well and make occasional use out of a x4 Fire resist while Kyurem-W struggles to switch in on anything remotely offensive.

Neither is terribly good against standard HO and both are kinda hard to make decent teams with, but Palkia can pose a very real threat to standard stall and most balance squads (aka what Kyurem-W tries to do) while actually serving a useful defensive purpose. It should be ranked higher as such.

Palkia also isn't nearly as useless as the rest of the stuff in D-rank, which I think we can all agree on.
 
Agreed that Genesect is unbelievably terrible.

Palkia has only one defensive purpose: check Primal Kyogre. It's not even as good a check to this Pokemon as Latias, Latios, or Primal Groudon anyway, so it has a terrible time synergizing onto any well-made team. As others have noted, it also loses to offense. 99% of the time, if I wanted to use a wallbreaker that can smash stall in half with proper support, I'd use Mega Lucario (Shadow Ball Aegi and max speed support Groundceus are not common at all, so it's usually a safe bet to wallbreak once Lugia's multiscale is broken). Mega Lucario has the added beneit of doing OK against offensive teams, with Bullet Punch vs. opposing Geomancy Xerneas being its saving grace. It also soft checks Mega Kangaskhan, a nuisance for most offensive teams, and outruns and smacks all Latios with Iron Tail. Lucario does miss with Iron Tail (Palkia also tends to miss a fair amount so w/e) and prevents your team from using Mega Salamence, but it's the more reliable wallbreaker overall and its very existence makes me hesitate to put Palkia on a team if I'm attempting to counterstyle someone.

Palkia is better than the rest of the garbage in D but putting it in the same tier as potentially useful stuff like regular Groudon and Mega Aerodactyl is overcompensating it...and I've used Palkia quite a bit for QC purposes. I'd drop it to C.
 
Clefable should drop to C+, maybe lower.

Reasoning:
  • Bait for threatening mons like PDon and Ho-Oh
  • Has problems checking what it's supposed to (SpD loses to EKiller and Tina-O, Def loses easily to Xern and CM formes)
  • Terrible Xern check (Moonblast has a chance to 2HKO after SR + 2 rounds of Lefties recovery, forced to PP stall Moonblast w/ WishTect yay free PDon switch lol)
  • STag bait and passive af
  • Fairy / blob slot that doesn't check Latios or Darkrai well (why am I using this over keys or bliss ?_?. hell, i'd rather use chansey)

Mega-Tyranitar should takes Clefable's spot in B-.

Reasoning:
  • Actually threatening; +1 MegaTar can clean lategame after Waterceus has been para'd and PDon chipped
  • Good typing and bulk; it's a nice emergency check to Yveltal, Latios, MMence (tanks +1 EQ univested, decent odds to survive after SR too), CM Arc-formes, and Ho-Oh (risks burn but w/e) on offense. Also survives LO EKiller EQ+ESpeed after rocks
  • Decent anti-lead vs Deo-S HO

Nominating Flygon for C+.

Reasoning:
  • Best defogger vs T-Wave PDon; doesn't hate Plume+D-Tail Don either
  • Very strong SD PDon / Groundceus / Rockceus check
  • U-Turn gains momentum easily and pairs well with STag
  • Reliable recovery in Roost to last all match (u-turn+roost set it apart from Tina-O, which checks more in general)

Sorry for the weird formatting
 
Fair points Sweep. I still think Palkia > Kyurem-W in most cases so in that case I'd probably argue for Kyurem-W to drop to C instead.

Don't mind dropping Genesect to D either. tl;dr reasoning - Outclassed by MegaZor/Scarf Rachi in the role of "steel u-turn pivot", bulk is depressingly bad, not terribly strong even with Download, Steel that cant check Xerneas is really bad news bears, pretty much any decent ORAS team has no trouble walling it which means it's usually going to be a liability rather than an asset.

Flygon needs an analysis before it can be considered for a ranking.
 
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