ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final ORAS Update - Post #1164)

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Can we move up cloyster to B-? I think its a great Tspiker and applies pressure very well with shell smash

The thing about cloyster I feel is that there are other mons that do its job better than it. Example being greninja. Greninja is MUCH faster and has access to taunt as well as ghost protean moves that allow it to block spinners/defoggers and proceed to set up t spikes and spikes. The thing about cloyster is that even with shell smash, it is not to hard to take it down, for starters it loses to other leads to an extent. Deoxys or gren can taunt it, pretty much shutting it down. Shell smash in this meta doesnt give you high enough stats to scare away notable mons such as Primal Groudon, Primal Kyogre, etc. So while cloyster can be argued to move up, I feel like its job is better left to other mons that can do it better.

I have said it earlier in the post before, but I still really feel like yveltal should move up. The mon is very hard to switch into, with its movepool, it can hit anything pretty hard on the switch if predicted. Its weaknesses I feel are easily handled with proper teambuilding, as well as reliable recovery and utility moves such as u turn and taunt. Also boasting a variety of sets to fit onto a team at hand. Defensive lets you deal with things such as e killer, mega mence, primal groudon, etc. I really think that this mon should be considered moving up, as it has a lot of pros to it that I feel outweighs the cons that it possesses.
 
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The only flaw in your logic is that Cloyster gets Rapid Spin and is therefore able to anti-lead Deoxys-Speed, something that Greninja is unable to do. Shell Smash is just a bonus. Not saying where it should move in terms of ranking (I believe it's fine where it is), but one has to consider that.
 
My thoughts.

Re: Toxic Spikes users (
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First I'll go into the advantages and disadvantages each. Cloyster has Rapid Spin and can pressure teams with Shell Smash; Icicle Spear is also nice as it allows Cloyster to break through Focus Sash. I like Cloyster, though it has trouble leading against Darkrai and it's not great at preventing Defog sometimes. Forretress is probably my least favorite of these three, its main draw being the ability to use Custap Berry Explosion and prevent Defog and access to Rapid Spin. It's set up bait for a bunch of stuff though, since Explosion isn't always that strong and stuff like Mega Salamence can set up on it, Darkrai puts it to sleep, etc. Greninja's main advantage is a fast Taunt to prevent Defog and hazards which is very useful in addition to Shadow Sneak for preventing Rapid Spin; it doesn't have Rapid Spin itself though and is probably the worst matchup against Deoxys-S since Shadow Sneak is less than a 50% chance to 3HKO. Another bonus is that Modest Hydro Pump 2HKOes Mega Sableye I believe. Scolipede's main advantage is Protect + Speed Boost + Pin Missile since it lets you beat Darkrai (which none of the other three do) and matchup well against Deoxys-S. I disagree that Cloyster is outclassed by Greninja in regards to setting Toxic Spikes, becausethey have different advantages. Cloyster definitely doesn't get shut down by Taunt since it has Icicle Spear and Rapid Spin which allows it to have a better matchup in some lead scenarios actually. Toxic Spikes is a cool niche in general, overall though

Re: other C+ Pokemon
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: I haven't really seen Mega Aerodactyl used successfully too much, I mean I guess it's an okay offensive check for some stuff but it takes up the Mega slot, can't get past Mega Sableye, and Primal Groudon can fit Stealth Rock rather easily so I'd honestly just keep this in C+. That said, I lack experience using this Pokemon.
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: Used this Pokemon a bit and it's pretty solid actually. Regenerator is great, it passes pretty large Wishes, and it checks stuff decently. Only thing is that it's really passive which is a bit of a problem.
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: Used this a bit too and it's pretty threatening offensively. Checking Mega Salamence is pretty useful as well. You could make an argument for it being on par with Dark Arceus as a Calm Mind user. Stealth Rock weakness is annoying.
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: In theory I don't think this would be that bad, since it can run a pretty bulky set with Toxic maybe and be pretty effective as a support Arceus forme. However, I don't see much reason to use it over other support Arceus formes like Water Arceus, other than it's better vs Latios and Yveltal by virtue of typing.
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: I'd almost always rather use Mega Salamence. Mega Blaziken is just much harder to set up with.
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: Gothitelle can be good but it's very matchup reliant and having near-deadweight Pokemon against offense can be rough.
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: Regular Groudon is just really hard to justify for me because not being able to use Primal Groudon is really unfortunate. It's got some decent traits but the opportunity cost of not being able to use the best Pokemon in Ubers is a huge factor limiting regular Groudon's viability.
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: Kyurem-W is really hard to switch into, but also really hard to get into the game in the first place and requires some prediction to use.
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: Choice Scarf is decent. Sometimes you're put into bad positions with this because if you Earthquake, some Flying-type like Mega Salamence will come in and get a free turn.
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: Mega Slowbro is pretty solid, though it is susceptible to entry hazard stacking and status. Regenerator before Mega Evolving is useful and it can check stuff well. It takes up the Mega slot but it has a ton of defensive capabilities. Iron Defense allows it to set up alongside strong setup sweepers that it wouldn't normally be able to beat.
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: SmashPass is matchup reliant / gimmicky and webs is bad. That said, they can win against unprepared teams that happen to have poor matchups.
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: Toxic Spikes and Rapid Spin is super useful, and not something commonly found on a defensive Pokemon. Requires quite a bit of support since it's not the best at checking things, so it can be hard to fit on a team.
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: Dragon Dance is pretty good. I don't like that you can only make use of its defensive capabilities to a limited degree, for example switching it into Ho-Oh risks getting a burn and being dead weight.
So conclusions-wise, I'd probably tentatively rank these as: Mega Slowbro > Cloyster = Greninja > Scolipede > Ice Arceus > Landorus-T > Alomomola > Mega Tyranitar > Fairy Arceus > Kyurem-W > Forretress > Tentacruel > Mega Aerodactyl > Mega Blaziken > Gothitelle > Groudon > Smeargle.

Frankly I'm a bit iffy on some of the ordering, and stuff can be shuffled but this is a bit of a rough idea of what I had in mind. Move some of the higher ones up, can't really say where to cut it but I'd say sometime between Ice Arceus and Mega Tyranitar roughly. This balances B-/C+ a bit better in my opinion.
 
I’d like to suggest Mega Blaziken for B-.

I’m aware of the fatal flaws with Blaziken’s defenses and therefore, its ability to set up, but there are a few reasons the poke still has a niche in oras ubers. The meta has seen a sharp decline in priority spam, namely LO ekiller itself that has been scarce in usage compared to the number of support arceus forms that have been sprouting up. Banded Ray shows up occasionally, and LO deoxys-A, but not often, and hardly at the same time, which somewhat mitigates Blaziken’s crippling weakness to heavy priority damage. Prankster twave is another important form of priority to consider, especially with all the klefkis running around as of late. Twave essentially destroys Blaziken’s sweeping potential, unless you manage to get to +6, which would allow you to outspeed most base 90 mons barring speed creep/scarf, and usually defensively invested xerneas and ygod as well. Fake out is only worth mentioning on mega kanga, who really isn’t seeing the greatest amount of usage with the opportunity cost of not using mega salamence, and the fact that you’d have to sack a mon every other turn. Blazikens lacking protect have trouble as standalone mons, and Blaziken with protect has severe 4 mss. Ditto as always poses issues to set up sweepers, so it is worth mentioning as well. All this being said, Blaziken is quite threatening with an SD, but it doesn’t have the opportunity to use it on basically anything in the oras meta by itself. With proper support, however, from a mon such as wobb, and rocks on the field, Blaziken can solo the majority of the meta. Safeguard wobb also helps mitigate the prankster twave weakness for a few turns, and if anything, can help a paralyzed blaziken actually touch +6.

Primal groudon usually has some form of hp investment for xern, but is usually spdef inclined, which dies to a +2 HJK (yes HJK I know I know) after rocks
Lugia dies to a +2 knock off/stone edge after rocks

Fully def giratina forms tank a knock off actually, but wall giratinas doesn’t show up quite as often anymore

Physically def with full investment waterceus/neutral arceus forms tank HJK as well, but not after 2 rock switch-ins

Standard mega salamence spreads die to +1 edge


Blaziken can punch huge holes in many teams, and where it fails to clean up, it paves the way for other potential sweepers. It really only functions well on hyper offense teams, and is otherwise dead weight, as it doesn’t force switches on very many mons since it dies to just about everything. It’s not the greatest mon, but with appropriate support it can function well enough to meet the standards of the B- rank: "Reserved for Pokemon that have decent offensive or defensive capabilities. B rank Pokemon are typically chosen for their specific roles, but need certain degrees of support and/or suffer from higher opportunity costs.”


I’m sure everyone knows all the information I stated but I think it is worth mentioning anyway since groudon sets are not exactly moving towards phys def, giratinas aren’t as common, and priority spam isn’t very common, either.
 
Is there any reason to use mega blaze over LO blaze? Greater power and reducded priority, as you mentioned, favor LO blaze over mega blaze.

Personally, I think that mega blaze is unviable and should be put in D rank but LO is absolutely usable and might be deserving of a bump.
 
As a lo blaze user myself (shoutouts blim) i can only agree. Not using a mega stone on blaze also means you can pair it with a Mence for a cool ho core while mega is outclassed by mence simply because it's a mega. LO doesn't outspeed some things at +1 that mega can but I'd still rank regular blaze higher. It also hits a little harder without boosts making it easier to simply punch holes on opponents' teams
 
Okay, so groudon. Normal groudon. I think most of us could all agree that there's no point in not equipping your groudon with a red orb. Why is it in C+? It has no noticeable niche in which it would be justifiable unless you counterteam someone hard. I think it should drop to D but if there's some notable niche that could ever make it worth using over primal groudon, explanation of such would be cool. Otherwise I think it's pretty unusable in ORAS and D would be acceptable for it.

e: agree with abs about the mega blaze / LO blaze split. Mega blaze is a pretty bad mega to pick for reasons listed already
 
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Okay, so groudon. Normal groudon. I think most of us could all agree that there's no point in not equipping your groudon with a red orb. Why is it in C+? It has no noticeable niche in which it would be justifiable unless you counterteam someone hard. I think it should drop to D but if there's some notable niche that could ever make it worth using over primal groudon, explanation of such would be cool. Otherwise I think it's pretty unusable in ORAS and D would be acceptable for it.
loss of fire typing and freed up slot for leftovers allows groudon to check certain physical threats such as pdon and groundceus much better than pdon does. also, the lingering sun is extremely useful for ho-oh teams. it's a small niche, nonetheless a well defined and distinct one deserving of C+ imo.
 
Valid points for regular Blaziken > Mega Blaziken. The only reasons to use a Mega-Blaziken really would be for the “longevity” aka easier predicts if someone wants to bait recoil, the immediate speed gain, and the long term speed advantage if para’d (which tbh is a relatively obscure scenario). The defense boost is essentially a nonfactor, especially with the lack of damaging priority these days and the fact that the boost is marginal at best, and mixed Mega-Blaziken is pretty mediocre in most scenarios. Now that you've pointed it out, the speed increase doesn't actually outweigh the benefits of the increased damage coming from LO. LO Blaziken puts greater pressure on primal groudon, and has a favorable chance to ohko phys def neutral arc forms with HJK (and a marginal chance with flare blitz), a feature that Mega-Blaziken fails to achieve, and has the extra damage boost which allows 2hko scenarios instead of recover bait or simple revenge kills after absorbing a hit. The opportunity cost of using Mega-Blaziken alone is enough reason to reconsider using it in the first place. I have to agree that LO Blaziken is almost always the better option out of the two.
 
Valid points for regular Blaziken > Mega Blaziken. The only reasons to use a Mega-Blaziken really would be for the “longevity” aka easier predicts if someone wants to bait recoil, the immediate speed gain, and the long term speed advantage if para’d (which tbh is a relatively obscure scenario). The defense boost is essentially a nonfactor, especially with the lack of damaging priority these days and the fact that the boost is marginal at best, and mixed Mega-Blaziken is pretty mediocre in most scenarios. Now that you've pointed it out, the speed increase doesn't actually outweigh the benefits of the increased damage coming from LO. LO Blaziken puts greater pressure on primal groudon, and has a favorable chance to ohko phys def neutral arc forms with HJK (and a marginal chance with flare blitz), a feature that Mega-Blaziken fails to achieve, and has the extra damage boost which allows 2hko scenarios instead of recover bait or simple revenge kills after absorbing a hit. The opportunity cost of using Mega-Blaziken alone is enough reason to reconsider using it in the first place. I have to agree that LO Blaziken is almost always the better option out of the two.
I'd just like to point out that Adamant Mega Blaziken is both faster than and hits harder than LO Jolly Blaziken. I don't know if this still holds up, but IIRC LO Blaziken tends to run Jolly while Adamant is more preferable for Mega due to the overall higher damage output and outspeeding Jolly base Blaziken anyway.

Other than that, I do agree with the Blaziken split: Blaziken to B-, Mega Blaziken to remain in C+ or drop to C.
 
I definitely think Solrock should be ranked somewhere- at least C-. A physically defensive set actually carries a suprising amount of utility as it avoids the 2HKO from any of Ho-Oh's moves (even Choice Banded Ho-Oh fails to 2HKO with Brave Bird) while also serving as a soft Mega-Salamence / Primal Groudon check. Besides checking 3 S-Rank Pokemon, it also gets reliable recovery in Morning Sun, the ability to set Stealth Rocks, and various status moves such as Toxic and Will-o-Wisp. It's similar to Bronzong in the way that they both check a substantial amount of the top-ranked threats but are prone to being overwhelmed. Obviously Bronzong is a bit better but Solrock definitely has a niche.
 
Ho-Oh can actually 2HKO Solrock with CB Brave Bird if you get a burn on it.

Solrock has no way to OHKO Mega Salamence while in return it's getting two shot by +1 DEdge after Stealth Rock or set up on by DD + Refresh. The best you can do is halt the sweep with Rock Tomb but you're probably not getting a chance to heal up later.

It doesn't really qualify as a PDon check...Lava Plume 2HKOes with a burn + rocks and Swords Dance obviously breaks it in half.

So basically you're left with a shoddy "check" to PDon/Ho-Oh/Mence that loses to anything with a special attack and is prone to getting hazards dumped on it by pretty much any Spikes user. I wouldn't use Solrock even on fun teams, it's really just awful. I guess it has a sort of niche in setting up Trick Room but Cress does that way better with Lunar Dance access and enough bulk to tank a hit from a lot more Pokemon. Heck, Cress even takes Lava Plume from Groudon better than Solrock despite the fact it doesn't have a Fire resist lol
 
???

First of all, you are correct in that Solrock's sole niche in the metagame is to set up Trickroom against common offensive threats but I disagree with the rhetoric of how you ended your post, comparing it to Cresselia like that...

It's just fact that Solrock checks Ho-Oh and Mega Salamence better than Cresselia by virtue of its typing, both have access to Magic Coat to antilead, Toxic, Trickroom, and Morning Sun/Moonlight. The two learn suicide moves, as well, and while Lunar Dance is arguably better, Explosion has its advantages in its offensive presence it provides, often opening up revenge-killing opportunities (Lunar Dance early game is never useful anyway).

Despite these similarities, I actually believe that Solrock is superior to Cresselia for two reasons: Stealth Rock and Will-O-Wisp; the former obviously being an extremely valuable asset which leads to more room for innovative expansion, while the latter is crux, too, as it allows you not only to shut down non-Refresh Mega Salamence, something Cresselia cannot do, but also to do so against the plethora of potent physical attackers that run rampant in the metagame like Arceus and Rayquaza. Its moveset is so flexible, in fact, that it's even one of the few Pokémon viable in Ubers to learn both Skill Swap and Stealth Rock, a nifty combination for guaranteeing Stealth Rocks.

Tldr jokish these Pokémon may they be, I feel as though you present your argument against Solrock with respect to Cresselia under an unfairly negative light...you seem to (1) misunderstand how similar the pair of Pokémon are in the respective functionality they provide for the team and (2) underestimate how valuable in both synergetic-properties and utility its Rock-typing and access to Stealth Rock and Will-O-Wisp are.
 
Um, Cress doesn't check offensive Mega Salamence? It comfortably lives +1 DEdge after rocks and KOes with Ice Beam + recoil or rocks. It's a perfectly fine Salamence check. Solrock is less reliable at this since if it misses Wisp it's dead, it doesn't have a way to damage it much outside of burn because its stats suck, and it's completely screwed against bulky Refresh sets.

Claiming that Solrock is better than Cresselia is just plain silly. Cresselia's raw bulk means it can take the hits Solrock can just as well or better and the overall increased bulk means it functions way more effectively as a Trick Room user since it can set up against a wider variety of targets. There are plenty of viable Trick Room users that can set up SR (Dialga, Bronzong, Diancie, you can also slap it on Groudon). Heck, Bronzong in particular is much superior to Solrock on a TR team since it can do the TR + Rocks + Boom combo, except it does it way better since it actually has good defenses and typing so it can afford to run Attack investment, it can actually threaten things with Gyro Ball, and it also checks Mence fine while also handling many other things well such as Latis etc.

Explosion has its uses but Lunar Dance is unique support that only Cresselia has and I feel you're massively undervaluing it. It can be bit of a waste early on yes but Cress doesn't need to be the early TR setter and mid-late game it is amazing.

Skill Swap and Stealth Rock Solrock is not guaranteeing Stealth Rock at all...what moveset is this even? SR/Swap/Wisp/Morning Sun? You are aware that this can't beat any Defog users and gets shredded by Diancie before it can actually use Stealth Rock, right? You can't even touch Primal Groudon without Toxic...where are you fitting Trick Room, Rock Tomb, or Will-O-Wisp here? If you really want to go this route than Bronzong is better at this too since it can take on Diancie on Defog Arceus better due to typing and far superior special bulk.

Solrock is just a bad gimmick mon lol.
 
I'd just like to point out that Adamant Mega Blaziken is both faster than and hits harder than LO Jolly Blaziken. I don't know if this still holds up, but IIRC LO Blaziken tends to run Jolly while Adamant is more preferable for Mega due to the overall higher damage output and outspeeding Jolly base Blaziken anyway.

Other than that, I do agree with the Blaziken split: Blaziken to B-, Mega Blaziken to remain in C+ or drop to C.

LO blaze should still be adamant, you miss out on outspeeding certain mons like m2 formes mega gengar etc but the power jump is huge
 
Regarding Cress, I made a nomination for her waaaaaay back but it didn't come to pass because she wasn't pushed through QC and still isn't.

Probably meh nomination time!

Cresselia: Unranked ------> C-/C

With how physical of a meta ORAS has, Cresselia could have a niche as a physical wall. Something it has over other physical walls in this meta(and Psychic Arceus lol) is an immunity to the most common coverage type(Ground) and reliable recovery in Moonlight(albeit with 8 PP), which with the drop in usage of rain and sand, benefits Cresselia greatly(not sure whether harsh sun makes Moonlight restore more HP, though). She also lacks a Stealth Rock weakness(hi Lugia).

Things Cress can check:

Unboosted PDons(offensive max Attack Adamant variants only have a 3% chance to 4HKO with Stone Edge, can 3HKO with Fire Punch, and obvs PBlades does nothing, only things that really threaten Cresselia are Lava Plume/Overheat with 3HKOs and 2HKOs respectively. SD variants are problematic though).

MegaMence(unboosted Double Edge 3HKOs and Cress' uninvested Ice Beam 2HKOs Mence, bulky or not, which means that Cress can win if there are rocks on Mence's side or uses Ice Beam on the switch).

Other SD Arceus(Ghost cannot be walled, Ground can be checked, Bug probably can't be walled but who uses that, Dragon can be walled unboosted)

These points also ignore the possibility of carrying Reflect, which makes her walling job easier.

However, here come the cons and why I make the nomination for C at best:

-Problems with Dark-types
-Taunt bait
-Slow(though most walls are anyway)
-Problems with Ghost-types
-Uninvested special bulk means things like Kyogre plow through it
-Some problems with Bug-types

There's no denying she has her issues, but I still believe she has a respectable niche. If it's unfeasible then shoot it down, I'm just giving an opinion.

Advantages over Solrock:

-Not weak to Grass and Water
-Resistant to Fighting(Solrock is hit neutrally)
-Base Sp Atk is 20 points higher than Solrock, thus usable
-Learns Ice Beam(hits overall more targets than Rock STAB), unlike Solrock
-Faster by 15 Spe
-Better mixed defensive stats
-Lower Attack, meaning it takes less from Foul Play even though it still hurts

Solrock is niche whether you like it or not and is outclassed in every way by Cresselia. Not that Cress is good, mind you, and it's not what I'm trying to propagate, but it's a comparison.
 
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LO blaze should still be adamant, you miss out on outspeeding certain mons like m2 formes mega gengar etc but the power jump is huge

That seems quite dumb to miss out on if you ask me, also you speed tie with Skymin if ada. It's not the biggest thing, but honestly mega gengar alone makes jolly very useful.

idk what I think of blaziken as a whole but protect/bpass/low kick/flare blitz paired seems kinda ok vs offense and doesn't waste a mega
 
LO blaziken does seem fun, but idk if i would use it. With a lot of mons i feel living its attacks and ohkoing back such as primal groudon, arceus, xerneas, etc. I feel like I would use a RP primal don as a substitution if i ever came to teambuilding and if I wanted an offensive Fire type. The fighting type for blaziken also doesnt sell me on the fact either, considering fighting types dont do a whole lot in the tier to begin with.
 
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Ferrot b->A-/B+.
It is a descent wall! Almost anything without fire moves have a hard time against him, especailly e-speed arceas. We have two good sets for it. i.e 252 def/252spd/4hp or 252def/252hp/4spd . The former is better, but both are vaible! the first will survive 3+ earthquake from life orb arceas(normal)!and it can switch into may ons due to rocky helmet. It COUNTERS mega kangaskhan.... and checks Many physical sweppers lik arceas ghost and normal.P-ogre is also walled by ferrot. not to mension its leech seed + toxic is really annoying!! alternatively you can give it stealth rock. but Gyro and protect is a must. I will give a replay on how arceas is killed by ferrot if i can! but it can recover lost hp easily, especailly against bulky mons! if you have succesfully leeched the opponent, then ferrot will have a very good uperhand!It also cant be poisoned or seeded!

But it has some (major)drawbacks!It cannot do anything to sableye due to magicbounce( diance will die by gyro). This is by far the best pokemon to darkvoid in the team, and also the easiest! Lugia substitute/Ho-oh defeats it.while it can defeat non boosted mons, if the mon is already boosted it will have trouble! It doesnt gget recovery(maybe seed covers for it)

overall B+ to A- will be okay.
 
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A- < A

I feel like Mega Diancie has a big advantage in this tier considering it hits most of the tier super hard. For starters it has a great speed tier in this game, outspeeding things such as ho oh, lugia, yveltal and ohkoing back. It is a really good check to unboosted darkrai, as well as being able to play a 50/50 game with sr setters. Great revenge killer, great answer to mega sableye, and just being able to check a lot gives it a really good spot in the tier.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-316080125 I think this replay really captializes on diancies ability to play a 50/50 as well as how strong it is. I feel this lets it move up.
 
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Indeed, Mega Diancie's best qualities are that it forces skillful coinflips and OHKOs Lugia! Definitely think it's as equally viable as Deoxys-Speed, who also only gets hazards up given you win the first-turn coinflip (there's no way of getting up rocks any other way, just gamble the Skill Swap!) xD
 
I like diance, but Sableye outclasses it! The pre-evolution prankster+willo-willps! Its only weakness is to fairy and stalls cant to anything to this guy!(ferrot can OHKO diance with gyro). While sableye cant hit hard, so cant the opposing pokemon against sableye! But diance has its atvantages of have bulk+offensive capabilities! hence A- is ok
 
I just noticed deo-A at A-! it should be A/A+. reasons:
despite its poor defenses, it is an excelent offensive pokemon! It can be mixed/physical/specail attacker(prefer the former!) =. I love it because it can OHKO some mons like daince-mega, salamence mega with psycho boost! it can OHKO non-bulky pdon and 2HKO bulky pdon! it also kills non-sash darkrai with one superpower.It can basicallly destroy the whole ubers game!!

IT is a must for it to hold sash. E-speeders/priority movers makes it useless!(although luca-mega still OHKO with psycho boost/super power!). Entry hazards destroys its sash! But it can overcome this weaknesses with some support

supports: ferrot: when opponent is going to use e-speed, switch into rocky helmet ferrot! OUCH! after that one leech, one gyro will and protect will kill the arceas!( if arceas sds once than ferrot takes 48% damage but recovers with leech seed!!)

latias: defog+healing wish!

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-317315752
 
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