ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread M3 (READ POST #823)

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Milotic has always been hardpressed to fit on a team due to the sheer amount of better water-types. Even Vaporeon is better. Milotic stays C.

Milotic has three teeny tiny niches which are the only reasons you'd ever run it as compared to other bulky waters:
  • Reliable Recovery, for a Water-type
  • Competitive, which in itself is a niche amongst niches
  • Mirror Coat, which alomomola does better.
Seriously, everything else is completely outclassed by better Water-types such as Empoleon, Suicune, Mega-Blastoise, Swampert (+Mega), Tentacruel, and even Alomomola or Vaporeon who can support their teammates, the latter of which has access to roar as opposed to d-tail.

It's hard moving past these points because Milotic has hit a wall; it is outclassed. The UU tier is a comparative tier where mons are only as good as what they come across, and the other water types are far better equipped to deal with this tier, period.
 
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Changes:
Mega Aerodactyl: A+ -> S
Mega Ampharos: A- to B+
Vaporeon: B+ to C
Espeon: C to B
Escavalier: B to B+
Toxicroak: A- to A
Mega Houndoom: B to B+

The VR council ~almost~ universally agrees that Mega Aerodactyl is S due to its offensive capabilities and ability to check a huge variety of Pokemon through its typing, movepool, and Speed. It obviously performs well against offense, but with the increasing popularity of its Hone Claws set, can serve as quite a threat to more defensively oriented teams as well. Personally, I think it's one of the top two Pokemon in the tier and undoubtedly deserves S rank.

Nominations:
Feraligatr: S to A+
Zoroark: B- to B
Kyurem: A- to A (Bold Florges lol)
Cloyster: C to B-/B
Gourgeist: C to unranked (I get this has potential on paper, but has anyone actually used it recently and does it have enough to ever be used over Pokemon with similar roles)

As for Feraligatr, while it's one of the best setup sweepers the tier has to offer, the growing popularity of defensive checks such as Tangrowth and Chesnaught, omnipresent offensive checks in Scarf Hydreigon/Scarf Salamence/Mega Sceptile/Mega Beedrill, and other common checks like Porygon2, Mega Abomasnow, Whimsicott, all give Gatr a hard time and lower its viability slightly; in addition, even as a Water-type it can only soft check Mega Aerodactyl, Fire-types, etc.

Other decisions:
Torterra will remain unranked. It doesn't have enough going for it to be used over Pokemon who can perform similar roles. The low Speed, Water neutrality, and inability to do anything against the most common Defoggers prevent it from being viable.
Stunfisk will remain unranked.
Delphox will remain unranked. Other Pokemon simply perform its job better.
Clefairy will remain unranked for now, but it might actually go to C or something in a bit because it can kinda bring some useful stuff to teams. To clarify, I'm talking about purely support sets: Moonblast Softboiled Healing Wish Encore/Stealth Rock, anything else is 100% outperformed.
Accelgor is still being tested by me and a few other people, get back to you in a few days.
Poliwrath will remain at C. It can be useful, but only very situationally and has the similar viability to other Pokemon in C such as Weezing and Quagsire.
Swampert will remain at A-. It's a good Stealth Rock setter that can check some important threats for offense and balance, but quite easily worn down and has a poor matchup against too many good Pokemon (see: all of S, half of A+). Again, not saying it's a bad Pokemon cause it's not, but it just isn't on the level of the threats in A.
Cobalion will remain at A+. Earlier posts in the thread summed up why.

e: just gonna make another post in like 2 days on Accelgor, Clef, Torn, and otherw
 
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Cloyster actually straight up savages offense so long as priority users are gone and/or Ice Shard users, considering Adamant Mamo does something ridiculously low like 9% to -1 Cloyster. Nomination definitely agreed with.

Gatr I agree with dropping because it's potential is matchup based to high hell, the SD set is really good but I don't feel like it's useful 100% of the time like almost every other S rank mon's sets. I could see leaving it in S because it does rip through a lot of builds, but can also see it dropping - I'm not entirely clear on what the exact differences between S and A+ rank are, but the way I'm thinking in my mind is that Hydrei and Mence are just better mons than Gatr, so if they're a tier ahead that's fine.

Don't know anything about Gourgeist or Zoroark.

Kyurem is utterly savage and dominates so many teams that concern themselves with the other big dragons of the tier. Absolutely agree to A.
 
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Zoroark's ability to be an effective pokemon in UU has been deeply misunderstood but the lack of people using Zoroark correctly. I am so happy more individuals are seeing the potential this Pokemon has and what a problem it can be to the opposing team. Below are a few reasons why Zoroark is effective in the current UU metagame. Hopefully you can see why this Pokemon needs a rise to B.

Zoroark has the ability Illusion. It's an obvious one, I know, but I believe people are overlooking how powerful this ability can be. The best way to utilize illusion is within a volt turn core of some sort. Volt turn allows pokemon to come in without taking damage from their opponents if used effectively. Since Illusion's mind game factors depend on not getting hit by your opponent upon switch, volt turn is a very effective strategy. Here is an image of the team I use:
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I have u-turn on my specs Zoroark, Volt Switch on my Cobalion, U-turn on my Mega Beedrill, and Baton Pass on my Espeon. I have speed an power to scare out my opponents. I also have Magic Bounce to have my opponent hesitate going for a status move or entry hazards. The abilities and typing of my other pokemon all contribute to the effectiveness of Illusion. Although I utilize Illusion within this team, there are plenty of options for Zoroark's team mates. Illusion does not limit Zoroark to only be effective on certain teams.

Zoroark has Trick. While this may seem to be one simple move that Zoroark can learn, it turns out to be amplified in its effectiveness with the Illusion ability. People will not expect Zoroark to trick them and least of all pokemon like Jellicent, Cobalion, and Slurpuff. Since Zoroark can effectively run any choiced item, trick can be optimized to work towards what ever yo are trying to lure. Trick also becomes really useful when they know you are a Zoroark. The opposition often switches into their fat resists which gives Zoroark a chance to cripple them. Memento is another underrated option that can surprise my opponent and allow me to set up with my next pokemon.

Zoroark is a great Choice Specs/Scarf option. This is mainly building off my last point, but I had to make this clear. People are often caught up in 'surprise sweep' abilities but the emidiate power that Choice Specs can provide is very useful. I think people often forget the 120 base SpAtt stat that Zoroark possesses. Not only is the power great but the coverage options are too. Focus Blast. Flamethrower, Grass Knot, and Extrasensory are all great options that Zoroark can use greatly. Choice scarf can be great for late game cleaning or straight up revenge killing.
Sword Dance and Nasty Plot are not bad options don't get me wrong. I do, however, feel that they are times where Zoroark just needs that immediate power. I do see illusion NP or SD Zoroark paired up with other NP and SD users to force your opponent into some dangerous positions. This is probably why Zoroark got nominated in the first place.

Zoroark has a lot of viable options and has more tricks than illusion to play on the opposing team. Even moves like Pursuit and Taunt can be utilized in an appropriate manner to be great tools with Zoroark. Go ahead and try this monster out! B ranking is a great place for Zoroark considering its effectiveness of its ability and the flat out attributes that Zoroark possesses on its own.
 
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Support the rise of Zoroark from B- to B,

I am so glad that this got brought up. First I want to say DaSpoofy has a great post above me and I fully agree with everything he said.

Next I want to put this core here that I posted about a month ago http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/uu-cores-v2.3532349/page-3#post-6442762.
This core single handedly carried me to my ladder peak (#9 at the time) and is so unexpectedly strong (and fun to play) My team actually looked kind of like Spoofys with the MegaBee + Coba + Zoro combo. Volt turn is great when paired with Zoro because it always keeps your opponent in fear of what you are actually sending out. I know many people always thought that Illusion was a gimmick ability but its actually so underrated and allows for many game changing plays and easy set up opportunities. Another great positive about Zoro is that its so effective at supporting its teammates. Using illusion is a great way make huge holes in teams and open up Zoroarks teammates to start crushing your opponents team late game with their checks gone or crippled.

So for all the people who are on the fence about this or disagree Id suggest you build a Zoro team and tell me how you feel when you bop a Doublade with a Knock off when they think they are walling a Cobalion or when you trick a Blissey when they think they are going to eat up any attack Mega Amphy can throw at them because I can tell you from experience its a great feeling hah
 
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Like I said before, Feraligatr compounds weaknesses in teams since it can't fill the traditional role of a water type in the tier. Obviously, it is incredibly threatening but as was mentioned in the nom post, the best answers to it have risen in popularity. Not to mention the decline of the DD set leaves it open to getting picked off by Mence and Hydreigon easily. When you see gatr in a matchup it looks like it's going to destroy everything but in reality it hardly ever comes close to doing what is should.

Kyurem is strong as shit, Snorlax is on the decline, florges doesn't run calm. This is a no brainer. You can honestly just lead specs Kyurem and kill something at least half the time.
 
I am a huge fan of all of these changes. I still think that Mega-Houndoom might even be worth A-, especially with the popularity of Reuniclus, Cobalion and Doublade, but it does have difficulty mega-evolving if you aren't running Protect, so I can see arguments for keeping it B+.

Agreeing that Specs Kyurem is an absolute monster, and on the strength of that alone it can probably rise to A. This thing 2HKOs the entire tier if hazards are down - seriously, even Blissey is a guaranteed 2HKO from Focus Blast with rocks and a single layer of Spikes (and you have a 30% chance at the 2HKO just from rocks alone), and Ice is just a great type to spam right now. It still amazes me how many people seem to sleep on this thing. It's one of my favorite wallbreakers to use on balance and bulky offense.

Seeing Feraligatr drop to A+ makes me sad, but it's deserved. While it is still one of the scariest set-up sweepers in the tier, it faces major competition from things like Lucario and Salamence. Swords Dance is still by far its deadliest set, but this metagame is pretty punishing for it, and frankly I find something like Salamence has been getting more setup opportunities for me lately. Still a monster, but not quite as scary as it used to be.

I don't really have strong feelings about the Zoroark nomination, as I rarely use it, although just from its stats and movepool alone that seems reasonable. Just don't get super hung up on Illusion and it seems like a decent enough 'mon.

Cloyster does seem wrong in C-rank. Its mixed LO set is so great at softening up bulky teams, and it's funny how many people utterly fail to prepare for it because they think of it as a low ladder strategy. I support a rise to B-, although I think taking it all the way up to B is a bit premature.

I used Gourgeist-XL back in early ORAS, when I was excited that it finally got Synthesis, and it wasn't terrible - but I can't really see myself using it again except on the nichest of niche teams. I'm fine with it going unranked.

(Wow, I think this is the first slate of nominations ever where I've agreed with every single one...)
 
A couple minor things:

After testing, we've decided that Accelgor is worthy of C. It functions alright as a Spikes lead, especially for weather teams, and Final Gambit is great for putting dents in stuff like Forretress and Mandibuzz (and it can outspeed Crobat as well). Additionally, a very small niche it has is the ability to threaten Mega Absol and Espeon with its STAB.

Clefairy is going to be placed in C. Its typing, decent enough bulk, and good utility movepool give it a niche. Pairs well on bulky offense with stuff like SD Abomasnow that can weaken their checks the first time around and get Healing Wished later.

Tornadus is moving from B+ to A-, which is something discussed earlier that I missed the first time around.

Whimsicott to A+ is an interesting nom that I'm pretty on the fence about. What it lacks in stats, it makes up for in an incredible typing and simply unparalleled utility and support and it's one of the best "glues" to use on HO due to how much it checks. Offensive Whims w/ Pixie Plate is no slouch either, packing enough power to rkill everything that it needs to while netting some nice kills, such as a 2HKO on Cobalion.

e: o ya Drapion's being unranked
 
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No doubt that Whimsicott is really, really good, especially on offensive teams - but I have trouble seeing it quite at A+ rank. While it's great on offensive teams for its ability to quickly switch into a lot of deadly threats and shift momentum back into your team's direction, on more balanced teams its mediocre bulk means it gets worn down too easily. It gets 3HKO'd by Hydreigon's Dark Pulse, for example, so if you're using it as your Draco switch-in, you're not going to be able to pull that off throughout the game. It's still a solid 'mon on balance and bulky offense, don't get me wrong - but it's definitely not perfect. Its typing is godly, but it really leans heavily on that typing both offensively and defensively, as its stats are just so mediocre and even below-average in everything but Speed.

But yeah, it's obviously amazing on offensive teams, no question there. Also, in addition to the Pixie Plate set dodmen mentioned, while I haven't played with it much since Zyggy was still in the tier, the meta looks like Specs Whimsi will do a fair bit of work right now as well (as evidenced by the success dice had with the set on his dismaland team).

Anyhow, I'm still inclined to say that A is a good place for Whimsicott, although I understand I might be biased as I primarily play semi-stall and balance. I can certainly understand the arguments for Whimsi as A+.
 
Regarding Cloyster's move to B-/B, I'd like to add in a couple two cents of Sash Cloyster's viability as a revenge killer on certain setup sweepers. Having shell smash puts pressure on cm/np users and I know it's no Magic Guard Alakazam, and I know it doesn't get this function very often due to hazards, but sacrificing it's shell smash to clean up monsters that set up with dragon dance or speed boost can really help to take care of those threats or at least wear them down. I'm thinking poke like rain dance mega swampert and moxie mence. Plus it's access to ice shard can clean up the job if icicle spear/rock blast fails to do it. Maybe not B since without shell smash it's ice STAB is largely outclassed by Mamo, but with rock blast it can also take care of poke like rotom-h and azelf that mamoswine usually can't touch. So while saying keeping hazards out might feel like a big if condition, I feel like with the plethora of hazard removers out there in UU Cloyster can exploit it's sash quite nicely.
 
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Zoroark: B- to B (AGREE): DaSpoofy already went through Zoro's best qualities, but yeah definitely go through with this one. Zoroark has one of the best speed tiers at 339 Speed, outspeeding the likes of Salamence, Hydreigon, Heracross, Mamoswine, etc and also tying Mienshao as well. Its versatility is also incredible, having 105 and 125 Attack and Special Attack stats respectively, so it has the ability to run Swords Dance/Nasty Plot sets as well as their respective choice items and potential mixed sets. Pair it up with some nice Doublade and Cobalion lures you can disguise yourself as and watch the mindgames begin.
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Kyurem: A- to A (AGREE): I haven't used Kyurem much personally but I find it extremely hard to pivot into Dragon/Ice Coverage. With Specs seeming to be the most popular set people are talking about, there's always that risk of it running SubRoost as well, which is extremely annoying for the opposing team since the sub is so hard to break due to the bulk of this thing. And as the others have said, with Bold Florges increasing in popularity, Snorlax being on the decline due to the rise in popularity of Cobalion, Doublade, the drop of Hoopa, and Porygon2 always running mixed defenses, dedicated Special walls aren't really a thing anymore. Kyurem can definitely punch some huge holes into a lot of teams without said dedicated special wall with its coverage and power.
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Cloyster: C to B-/B (ABSTAIN): I haven't seen any of these since early ORAS so I can't really say much about it


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I'm also going to bring up Snorlax from A to A- again since it was brought up by Vapo in this post but wasn't addressed in the changes/nominations. Again, with the increase in popularity of Doublade, Cobalion, and Hoopa, Snorlax's best set (Curselax) has really had a tough time lately. It can run EQ over Sleep Talk to hit these pokemon, but even with the unreliability of Sleep Talk it definitely still needs it to sweep. It used to be one of the most fearsome set-up sweepers, being a Pokemon that people had to prepare for as well as being brought up for A+ awhile back, but the surge in popularity of these mons (Doublade, Cobalion, Hoopa) has definitely decreased Snorlax's viability.
 
YABO said:
I just don't understand how a pokemon that fits on nearly every team is considered not on the top rank of viability. Shouldn't that be one of the primary metrics to how we evaluate viability? If you look at the definition of viable in a dictionary, you find practicable and workable alongside synonyms such as usable, feasible, and adaptable. It's far easier to make a good team with Cobalion than to make a good team with Feraligatr. If you need an example why then just look at usage statistics where over the past few months, Cobalion has risen from #13 to #4. Meanwhile, Feraligatr has dropped from #6 to #17. I know that usage doesn't necessarily equate to viability but there is certainly a strong correlation when you look at something like 1760 stats or else we wouldn't consistently see Hydreigon and Salamence on almost 50% of teams. Why doesn't this get reflected in the viability rankings? Under most circumstances, Cobalion is a more viable choice than Feraligatr for a whole myriad of reasons. Among them is the much superior defensive utility that it possesses while maintaining a workable offensive presence. While Cobalion itself has downsides (honestly they're all pretty minor), there is hardly ever a downside when adding Cobalion to a team due to its absolutely impeccable typing for the tier and ability to consistently perform its job in every matchup.
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i'm really late but i dont think this post was ever addressed properly. the reason why viability rankings arent based on how splashable mons are is because that ranking already exists and its called usage statistics. viability, in smogon/pokemon/whatever, refers to how good something is at what it does. cobalion does a lot of things decently, while gatr does one thing amazingly: smash.
 
Supporting Gourgeist-XL to unranked: Gourgeist, aka "that mon you must use before Trevenant" gets easily beated by a lot of new ORAS threads, like Gatr, M-Drill, M-Sharpedo, or some mons who has rised a lot like Toxicroak, M-Aero or Heracross, which makes Gourgeist a mediocre Fight check. The only reason I can see it still in C, is because of being a check for Slur... oh wait:

+6 252 Atk Slurpuff Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 265-313 (70.8 - 83.6%)

I'm opposing Cloyster to be ranked on B. I can see it on B- due to the pressure it can take on offensive teams but it can easily walled by any bulky water and get 2OHKO by any Scald, specially if running Naive. It also needs a heavy hazard removal support and I feel there are more set-up sweepers much more effective. It would stay C imo, but I can see it on B-

Btw Drapion to unranked? I'm not opposing but I guessed Drapion was still a good psychic check and a stallbreaker with Reuniclus in S rank and Hoopa-C around. Mamo and Cobalion counters it easily but still. Meh, whatever...
 
JuanchoTacorta said:
I'm opposing Cloyster to be ranked on B. I can see it on B- due to the pressure it can take on offensive teams but it can easily walled by any bulky water and get 2OHKO by any Scald, specially if running Naive. It also needs a heavy hazard removal support and I feel there are more set-up sweepers much more effective. It would stay C imo, but I can see it on B-
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The only Cloyster set you should be using is Mixed Hydro Boom. Want to sweep with Aero/Mence/Sharpedo? Explode on Alomomola/Suicune and OHKO those fat tumors. Want to sweep with Aero/Pedo? Hydro Pump Doublade/Cobalion and 1 shot them out of your sight.

  • +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Explosion vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 519-611 (98.1 - 115.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 408-481 (100.9 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • +2 4 SpA Life Orb Cloyster Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 352-417 (108.6 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • +2 4 SpA Life Orb Cloyster Hydro Pump vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 308-363 (96.5 - 113.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Walled by bulky waters? Sigh. Just boom on them and sweep with something else. The wallbreaking potential it has is incredible and clears the path for teammates if it's not able to sweep on its own. The thing is a complete monster that I've used to get to 40-5 on ladder with alt Burrito Albino and will probably RMT if I stop being lazy. Cloyster for B.
 
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I still think that Gourgeist should stay C rank. It has pretty good bulk, reliable recovery, and a good movepool,however thats not what gives it a niche and makes it usable over say Tangrowth. First, Gourgeist's Ghost typing is extremely valuable. It competes with Jellicent for the title of best spinblocker as it can spinblock everything except Mega Blastoise. Now obviously Jellicent has more external use outside of a spinblocker, but Gourgeist is a good option if you already have a water type and dont want to stack types. Second, its ability to willo spam is really good. In a tier where scald burns are the bane of everything, willowisp is a very spammable option (psst it has 3 times more chance to burn than scald). In practice, Gourgeist is just able to click Willowisp and watch something burn. Again, this is a comparable feature to Jellicent. But the main difference between Jellicent and Gourgeist is that Gourgeist has more sheer bulk, and also has a relatively rarer typing. I would call Gourgeist a middle ground between Jellicent and Tangrowth. Ultimately it depends on whether you view that quality as "Jack of all trades,master of none" or as the quality of role compression and versatility. I agree with the latter and want Gourgeist-Super to stay C rank.
 
Not too much to say on nominations that people haven't said already but regarding Snorlax, I'm not too sure it should move down. While Curse sets are on the decline due to the increasing popularity of common checks and counters, such as Cobalion and Doublade, that's basically the same reason it was denied A+ in the past anyhow, that hasn't changed. They're probably more popular now though, which is fair enough to consider for it moving down but honestly CurseLax is extremely easy to aid with team support due to it having fairly limited switch-ins when accounting for the fear factor of Body Slam being able to paralyze. Something I don't believe people have touched on though is the Choice Band set, which is really good atm imo considering most people expect Snorlax to be a Curse variant and even if they do see CB coming, it still nukes something most of the time, and Facade CB means that burning it with Scald just makes it even scarier. With both of these sets in mind, I think Snorlax is worthy of staying A rank honestly.
 
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I initially thought that Gourgeist was worth dropping to unranked since, looking at the viability rankings, it didn't seem to check much notably anymore, but after some playtesting with it on a balance team, I vouch for Gourgeist to remain in C.

It's biggest niche is probably as the team's best spinblocker. Mega Blastoise beats every spinblocker except for Sp. Def Spritiomb if that's a thing, but Gourgeist fairs really nicely against Donphan and Forretress and does okay against Tentacruel. I think that Colbur Berry is the best item to run on it at the moment, as it not only helps it tank Donphan's Knock Offs, but it also makes it one of the most reliable check to Fighting types like Mienshao, Machamp and Heracross (loses to Band and statused Heracross' Megahorn though), as well as things like Mega Beedrill, non-Ice Punch Gatr or even Mega Sharpedo.

As a spinblocker and check to physical attackers, it faces competition with the other bulky C rank Ghost, Cofagrigus, but Gourgeist's access to reliable recovery and Foul Play along with its useful Grass resistances to Water and Ground allow it to be at least on par with it in viability. It's fine where it is.

Also this is like the worst time to be discussing dropping Gourgeist smh. Halloween's tomorrow guys :P
 
d2m said:
Just a question: what's the rationale between Suicune being S and Florges not?
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teal6 said:
In one word, Roar. Suicune beats most of the other fat setup sweepers in non-last-mon situations despite having shittier recovery because it forces them out.
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On top of that Suicune gets pressure which is good for stalling opponents out of and helping it beat other cm users
 
Not sure I'd trade walling the majority of the tier + Aromatherapy + higher SpA and SpD + More reliable recovery for Roar and Pressure. I'll make the case with some calcs later, right now I have some other shit I have to do.
 
Also cune walls a pretty solid amount of stuff and isnt piss easy to switch into considering scald+roar while hazards are up is dangerous
 
The main thing is that RoarCune isn't a setup fodder. It just roars out annoying stuff, whether Florges has to rely on them being hit supereffectively or having ass sdef (in both cases most of setup sweepers take a one moonblast and then OHKO)
 
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