ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread V6

[Kamer]

Yanmega is by no means a bad pokemon, but it's nowhere near good enough to rise. This was just recently discussed and any recent arguments made against it rising are still relevant. Yanmega's speed boost and tinted lens sets are both pretty neat, but are riddled with flaws that keep it from being put to full use almost ever. Yanmega on your team means you'll need spinning or defog support since it has that nasty rocks weakness, which doesn't seem all to bad until you realize that it has terrible defensive synergy with almost any means of hazard control. Pairing it with literally any spinner or defogger in the tier will stack weaknesses on your team and force you to build around Yanmega and the hazard controller to find switchins to their shared weaknesses. Yanmega is also extremely lacking in terms of defensive utility for its team, as it has no access to decent bulk or status moves (unlike the better choice in Venomoth) and can't even fit status into its movepool anyway. Speaking of Venomoth, it's almost ALWAYS a better option for your team, as it has a better defensive typing, access to sleep powder/stun spore, and essentially both of Yanmega's abilities with tinted lens and quiver dance (which does more than just boost its speed). Yanmega also has a lot of bad matchups vs the tier if it's using either of its abilities. Overall, the ability to click protect on Yanmega and outspeed a large portion of the tier is pretty great, but it's terrible bulk and defensive synergy with required teammates and lack of immediate power (2hkoing Conk with stab air slash isn't all that impressive considering it's a fighting type) and a plethora of other flaws that Venomoth does a better job compensating for. Again, it isn't bad, but is perfectly fine where it is, as a 4x weakness to stealth rock and the other above-mentioned flaws should automatically make it as situational as stuff like Zoroark and Slurpuff (which are actually way easier to use and don't require as much support).

I respectfully disagree, Hilomilo. Venomoth doesn't fill the same roll as Yanmega, not that that's the main problem with this response. The typing difference is great against fairies, but you need to stay unprotected to get your boosts, while not being ground immune. Banded Krook eats Venomoth for breakfast as do many of the mons I mentioned like Hydreigon. However, I wasn't suggesting to put Yanmega above Venomoth and certainly acknowledge the 4x rocks weakness after we've lost mence and zapdos. Pretending Zoroark or Slurpuff are less situational is something that I find more of an issue with. Zoroark rarely gets a kill, beats literally 0 of the S rank mons that Yanmega does, and I have never seen it sweep in UU. Slurpuff is old news with the steel spam in response to Sylveon. With the immense speed and power creeps in the tier, it rarely gets a chance to Belly Drum, and when it does, there is usually a steel waiting to revenge it. Yanmega doesn't need to stay unprotected to boost, doesn't need to play mind games with illusion, and doesn't need to sacrifice half of its hp like Slurpuff(providing you have hazard removal). In the current meta, I think it deserves at least C+.

 

[MedicMarines]

Yanmega to C+ or B-

It always scares out LO and specs Hydreigon and can't be revenged by scarf due to the +1 when Hydra comes in. You beat celebi every time(even with HP investment and tanga berry). You beat cune at +0 or +1 with giga drain. You oho all non-sash krook's with bug buzz and all but max hp rocky helmet with giga drain. Banded Entei takes 56-65% from air slash, thus needs very little chip after rocks. To be fair, if rocks are up on both sides, it has a 68% chance of getting the espeed kill(which is still not very reliable). Bee can mega on you but is then scared out. Even with rocks, yanmega revenges Conk easily. I don't advocate running AV conk, but even that still takes 7x-8x from an air slash, and +6 bulk up does about 24% max with mach punch. Due to usage, I think Cresselia and Cobalion need to be mentioned as well. Air slash 2hko's cobalion while it can't 2hko back without stone edge. +0 Defensive CM Cress takes 6x-8x from bug buzz as well.

Cleaning with this set is ideal, but I feel scaring out most of the biggest threats in the meta, being extremely fast with decent hard-hitting coverage, and being able to beat a lot of it's checks with chip deserves some recognition.

I am not advocating Yanmega for even flat B, i just think it is more viable than a lot of C+ and a few B- mons in this meta. I have reached 90 gxe with yanmega teams on the ladder in xy, and mence ORAS meta. I haven't finished laddering, but I've currently peaked with a Yanmega team at 1720, 86.7gxe in the current meta on "Coming Up Tho". I primarily run it as a less slow (than sylveon) conkeldurr check or to clean against HO.

Can't necessarily agree with these situations for Yanmega. The cases made are kinda... out of place (for lack of better term). For instance; with Hydeigon and Celebi, any/every faster mon will force them out. The argument then is, what will he do to a mon coming in. Say Sylveon comes in, non-boosted Hyper Voice does 69-81%. Other SpD tanks/walls, that take netural damage from Yanmega, won't need any mention besides their relevancy/presence. And Entei will generally not be coming in on Yanmega (to take a hit), but after Rocks and LO (IF you get the kill), Espeed KOs. Even if Entei is in and you bring in Yanmega after a fodder, 68% is still favorable if locked into ESpeed, meaning Entei wins the 1v1, while even Ancient Power will not OHKO, even after Rocks damage (75% on Entei) if you try to 1v1 against Sacred Fire. AV Conkeldurr CAN win vs. SB Yanmega, Ice Punch does 69-81%, KOs after Rocks, while as you mentioned doesn't KO back (albeit at full). And isn't Stone Edge standard on Cobalion? and +2 Iron Head OHKOs after Rocks.

These situation are more realistic in my opinion. If being a late game sweeper, when all its checks and counters are weaken is being recommended, a late game sweeper set, which would require it's teammates to weaken mons for it to be effective, would sit at it's ranking similar to mons like Sharpedo and Mega Glalie.

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

I feel like goodra should drop to ru since not only is it not used that much, but its really outclassed by alot of mons in this meta. Although it has good spe def, other mojs like snorlax also have good sped def and are better in other stats than goodra. plus, other dragons such as hydregon and haxourus are more commonly used in this meta than goodra will ever be.

If it did drop it'll likely get quickbanned as it can destroy the entire RU tier

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

This isn't really the place to be discussing tier shifts or a Pokemon's potential performance in another tier though. I agree that Goodra would be extremely overpowered in RU for a multitude of reasons, but the fact remains that we don't get to decide the tiers, and that hinges entirely on a Pokemon's usage on the ladder. At this rate it's not likely to drop anyways, but this thread isn't really the place to be talking about tier placements of Pokemon. We don't make our tiers, that depends on how commonly you'll see a Pokemon on a certain tier ladder. Plus, this is a UU forum, and what would happen in RU has nothing to do with UU itself.

 

[Sam I Yam]

Nominating Mega Abomasnow for -A rank
Mega Aboma is the most "anti meta" mon in the tier right now due to its typing and move pool.

It's ability to potentially check 4 out of the 5 S-Rank Mons (make it 5/6 once Krook is added) acts as a huge benefit to most teams. It also pairs nicely with some of the most splashable mons in the tier. Most notably, the most common offensive core currently; Sylveon/Krook - compliments M-Abomasnow greatly due to Krook being able to take on steel/bulkier fire types and Sylveon forces in fire/steel types to take Strong Fairy attacks, thus wearing them down for Aboma.

Stab ice shard is very valuable in this tier due to being able to clean up common weakened mons like: Krook/M-Aero/Celebi/Hydra/M-Scept/Crobat.
Ice/Grass typing is great in the current meta since when most people need an Ice resist they will lazily throw a water type on their team.
Since Sylveon is the most common mon in the tier, Abomasnow gets a use for a nice little toy in Soundproof before it mega evolves - allowing a safe switch into sylveon and the ability to either get a free SD or nuke anything with Wood Hammer.

 

[MedicMarines]

I would like to nominate Galvantula to move up from B - to B. I know it was brought up before earlier in the discussion, but I feel the arguments against it are blown out of proportion.

Pros:
1. Thunder @ 91% accuracy. This means Thunder has almost the same value of Scald. A easily spammable move, with a high change of getting a status. Without a mon that can give you an immunity to Paralysis, Thunder is almost a 'skill-less' in the same manner of Scald. This allows Galvantula to have this slight niche over Heliolisk, which in my opinion should put it right beside him on the viability ladder.
2. Bug Buzz also seperates Galvantula from Heliolisk, being able to pressure Hydreigon + Celebi, Hydreigon + Suicune, Suicune + Celebi, (many A ranked mons with a Bug/Electric weakness), something that Heliolisk cannot do.
3. Heliolisk can stop Calm Mind Suicune, but brings little value vs the others. Specs Galvantula can pressure Suicune in the same manner. (arguably with a slight niche being able to Para). While a base 108 vs 109 speed means they both will get the Volt Switch on any mons slower anyways. The difference in items, Choice or Life Orb also hinders both equally. Choice meaning you won't / will get of the Volt Switch. Life Orb means lack of power or speed, which will result in the same tank coming in to sponge anyways.
4. Utility with Sticky Web. This may seem like a gimmick set (with so many low ladders using Lead Galvantula with Focus Sash), but even with a sash set, it's tends to be undervalued and fodder off too early. The speed allows Galvantula to be a late game cleaner, and revenge killer.
5. Better 4th move slot vs Heliolisk. Energy Ball / Giga Drain / Sucker Punch (tho gimmicky, extremely surprising)

Cons:
1. Stealth Rock weakness. I feel this 'weakness' is the main one that's blown out of proportion. With it's low defense, being easily KO'd anyways, the difference in 25% of your health won't change that anyways. Also, the only changing factor is if a faster or choiced mon is brought in. If Scarf, it can be tanked, if Life Orb it can be revenged back.
2. Power. I feel this is again over exaggerated. If Galvantula doesn't do what it does best, outspeeding and KO with super effective move, it still switches out like any other mon. And, being able to Para with Thunder hinders any mon taking a neutral hit from it anyways like Sylveon and even Bliss.

Lastly, each set has it's own play style and should be built around according.

Some replays:

Specs set:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-466484553

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-465333801

Sticky Web:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uususpecttest-442963532

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uususpecttest-440549472

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

So Raikou and Hippowdon have dropped. I haven't used Hippowdon much, but I think strongly believe Raikou should be somewhere in A rank. Why?

It's one of the fastest Pokémon in UU. Only Crobat, Mega Sceptile, Mega Beedrill and Mega Aerodactyl are faster.
It's more powerful than Heliolisk, and bulkier to boot.
It's the only Electric type in UU with a good boosting move in Calm Mind (Charge Beam sucks)
The aforementioned Calm Mind also lets it run multiple sets - it can run its classic SubCM set, a Calm Mind + 3 attacks wallbreaker set, and a Choice Specs set. It could also run Assault Vest or Choice Scarf, but those are lesser options IMO.

Raikou @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Ice

Raikou's iconic SubCM set. A lot of the Pokémon that can wall Raikou like defensive Celebi and Porygon2 are set up fodder for this set. Substitute shields Raikou from status and Leech Seed. Calm Mind boosts Raikou's Special Attack to very high levels. Thunderbolt is a reliable, consistent STAB. Hidden Power Ice hits the Grass, Ground and Dragon types that resist Thunderbolt. EVs maximise Speed and power; Leftovers restores HP lost through Substitutes.

Raikou @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Ice
- Signal Beam / Extrasensory

Instead of setting up over several turns, this set aims to boost once or twice and smash up as much as it can. Calm Mind is used to boost Raikou's Special Attack. Thunderbolt is Raikou's STAB move that 2HKOes most things that don't resist it at +1. Hidden Power Grass is recommended to OHKO Swampert, who Raikou lures in. Hidden Power Ice OHKOes Gligar and Nidoking most of the time at +1. Signal Beam OHKOes Celebi after a boost, and 2HKOes Hydreigon and Krookodile on the switch. Extrasensory OHKOes offensive Roserade, Nidoqueen and physically defensive Chesnaught at +1.

Raikou @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Grass
- Signal Beam / Extrasensory

If you like the idea of the power behind the Calm Mind sets but don't want to have to set up, this is your solution. Choice Specs give Raikou incredible power, letting it 2HKO all but dedicated special walls. Thunderbolt is the main STAB move. Volt Switch lets Raikou scout switch ins, grab momentum and act as an offensive pivot. Hidden Power Ice OHKOes Gligar and 2HKOes physically defensive Hippowdon. Hidden Power Grass OHKOes Swampert, who otherwise stops Raikou cold. Signal Beam OHKOes Celebi and 2HKOes Hydreigon and Krookodile. Extrasensory OHKOes offensive Roserade after Stealth Rock, and 2HKOes Nidoqueen and physically defensive Chesnaught.

 

[newfren]

Generally the precedent is to leave any new pokemon in their own "new pokemon rank" for a period of time (a week? 2? something like that) to allow the meta to adapt to them and for them to fit into the meta. I do agree that raikou and hippowdon will both be quality pokemon in the tier though.

E: turns out they haven't even been confirmed dropped yet!

 

[MaroGod]

Have they even be confirmed to drop ?_? usage stats arent even out yet

 

[Tony]

They haven't. But ChrystalFalchion probably saw KaioNabuco's (first) post in Antar's thread and put one and one together. I think user KaioNabuco is merely hoping for Raikou and Hippowdon to drop, while not having the actual information itself. Unless user KaioNabuco has some inside source or is Antar's younger brother I consider it highly unlikely for them to know the upcoming (potential) drops from OU into UU before even making a first post on Smogon.

Edit @ Below: Please refrain from speculating drops based on previous usage statistics. Not only are they impossible to accurately predict, but it's even harder to rank them without knowing how they'll actually fit into the UU metagame. Once usage statistics come out and stuff drops, be sure to actually try them out before posting here with rank suggestions. It's good to look ahead, but better to post when informed and having more to base an argument on than "I think". You can all expect a huge update from Pearl when drops come out, so by all means stay tuned. :D

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

I checked the usage stats and Raikou was averaging under the amount so I assumed it would drop. Sorry if that's not the case, I didn't mean to cause confusion.

 

[Avant Heim]

did raikou and hippowdown really dropped?

 

[Hogg]

None of the November drops have been announced yet. Typically it takes a few days to collate stats. They *might* drop, as they have been hovering near the cutoff for a couple of months, but as we still don't have October's stats yet, this is all up in the air. Any changes to the UU tier will be announced in the NP thread if/when they occur.

Please refrain from using this thread to speculate about potential drops. We do NOT rank things based off of speculation; we rank off of direct experience. As Tony and newfren mentioned, we typically don't rank and discuss new additions to the tier until people have a chance to try them out in the meta. When drops ARE announced, the proper thread to discuss and speculate on a Pokémon's place in the meta is the NP thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-oras-uu-stage-7-3-see-no-evil.3582473/

 

[Pinkin Lark]

I checked the usage stats and Raikou was averaging under the amount so I assumed it would drop. Sorry if that's not the case, I didn't mean to cause confusion.

I once speculated that Zapdos and Conk would drop because they were near cutoff. Mind you I said MIGHT drop when I said it, but god forbid people don't take everything as 100% confirmed. Took about 2 more major shifts before they actually fell.

Also, as mentioned, trying to rank shit that hasn't fallen/just fell is a foolish idea. You have no idea how they will impact the metagame just off theory.

 

[Asspull]

First post
Agree with Mega-Snow Moving to A-
Pretty much only Ice type that can destroy waters like suicune. It's great as a late game sweeper that can force a lot of switchs, and most fire types that switch in don't enjoy eating an earthquake. (chance to get a 2hit ko on Band Entei with Rocks + eq +ice shard.) One of the best stops to cleric sylveon, easily setting up a sd and cleaning up, with many pokemon in the tier weak to ice.

 

[SableyeStudios]

I'd like to nominate Durant to B Rank. I know it has its huge weakness to fire, but there are many Mons in the UU Metagame who can absorb fire attacks well, such as Entei, Arcanine, Chandelure, M-Blastoise, and even Cresselia if you can run the right setup. Durant is a very versatile Mon in that you can run a variety of different sets, including Banded, Hone Claws/Life Orb, and even Scarf for a speedy yet strong physical attacker with some defensive bulk as well. Plus, Durant's movepool is great against anything, really. Aerial Ace could be run on either Band or HC/LO set, negating the accuracy drop of Hustle, also having access to moves for coverage such as Crunch, Stone Edge/Rock Slide, Shadow Claw, Thunder Fang, and Superpower, not to mention STAB Iron Head and X-Scissor. While Durant is out-shined by many Mons within the tier in terms of Base Attack, it still can employ its high Speed and Attack to create a physical sweeper which can be run with either Jolly or Adamant. Using it in combination with a FlashFire user like Chandelure could bait a fire attack which could, in turn, give Chandelure even more power, especially if it's Scarf/Flash Fire/Timid or Scarf/Flash Fire/Modest. Lack of U-Turn and Hazard Set-Up do affect Durant's viability, but overall, Durant deserves even the slightest of tier shifts for its versatile abilities as a sweeper.

 

[DiscoDucky]

I think Conk should be S-rank. Very little can actually stop the Bulk Up set once it starts rolling. It can survive the OHKO off of many physical SE moves and some unbolted SE special attacks from prominent mons in the tier and KO them back with +1/+2 Knocks or DPunches, especially the latter's good sustain.

 

[Freeroamer]

Thanks for telling us stuff we already knew I guess? These are viability ranking threads, the assumption is that the pokemon is already in a rank which fits it unless there have been changes to the pokemon itself or changes in the metagame that make the pokemon more/less effective and the onus is on you to outline reasoning based on these factors as to why a pokemon should rise/drop. Personally I think Conkeldurr is an extremely good mon but I don't agree with it being S Rank, although if Entei is S Rank and Krookodile was heavily considered at one point then maybe there's an argument to be had, albeit I think it is a weak one.

 

[Heroes and Cons]

Is Klefki UU now that it has dropped? Or was it banned previously and is stuck in BL? Just haven't seen any discussion about it in here so I'm a little confused.

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

Is Klefki UU now that it has dropped? Or was it banned previously and is stuck in BL? Just haven't seen any discussion about it in here so I'm a little confused.

It's BL

 

[Hilomilo]

Since the tier shifts finally happened, there is probably going to be a vr update soon. The council told us recently that they'd come up with a new method to better separate the pokemon in high A+/lower S from the lower A+/higher S, so with the next update will come a possible Conk rise to something like S- or A++ rank, but we'll just have to wait and see.
Btw, R.I.P Duggy conversation :(

 

[Morsel]

Sorry if this is not relevant but there is no real discussion going on now and I can't think of a better time to say this. Thanks to the council and UU community for making such an awesome metagame for Oras and hope to see all of you for S/M. :)

 

[Pearl]

The thread's been finally updated! Me and the rest of the team came to the conclusion that the best way of handling the upper rankings was to make some slight changes to their structure (there are now 5 subrankings in the A rank). For reference, here a post by Hogg that addresses the issue I'm referring to:

I've mentioned this elsewhere, so I'll c/p some chunks of my arguments there re: Krookodile, Entei and others.

Most of the arguments I've seen for Krookodile rising focus on how easy it is to fit Krookodile on teams, how it puts in work versus most matchups. I've got no argument there. Yes, there's practically no drawback to putting Krook on a team, and it fits on a myriad of playstyles. The same is true about Sylveon, which is probably the single most splashable Pokemon in the tier right now, and almost every argument I've seen for Krook being S-rank would apply to Sylveon as well. To be honest, I think Krook, Entei, Sylveon and (sorta) Conkeldurr are all really hovering in an odd space right now - they're better than the rest of A+, but not as good as the mainstays of S (in particular Hydreigon, Celebi and Suicune - I'll get to MAero in a bit).

Regardless of how good Krook is, I don't think it's at all quite at those levels. The issue to me is not that Krook & Co. are all suddenly S-rank, but that there's a growing gap in the A+/lower S ranks. If we're keeping the ranks as they are, then we're in this sort of odd position where either Krook, Entei and Sylveon stay in the same rank as Mega-Beedrill and Gyarados (which feels wrong), or we move them up and put them in the same rank as Hydra and Celebi (also feels wrong), or we shift the rankings downward and move stuff like Mega-Bee down (which will make many people think we're saying that they got worse, when really it's that the others got better).

But anyhow, while things like Krook and Sylveon are incredibly good at getting their jobs done, and are really crazy splashable, they just plain don't do what Hydreigon/Celebi/Suicune do, which is shape the goddamned metagame around themselves. Hydreigon is just about the hardest Pokemon to switch into in the game, offensively checks a major portion of the tier and more or less singlehandedly forces teams to run a Fairy or trade with Hydreigon every time it comes in. Celebi is the single most dangerous setup sweeper in the tier, has completely changed how every team operates right now, and has the tools to beat just about every one of its "counters." Suicune is rivaled only by Sylveon in the amount of crap it shuts down, while ALSO being probably the second most threatening setup sweeper after Celebi.

As for Mega-Aero... I never thought I'd say this, but Mega-Aerodactyl is kind of suffering right now. It's funny because I still use it more than any other Mega, and it's still crazy good, so it's really hard for me to say that it's getting worse. If anything, you'd think that the rise of things like Celebi would really help it. Pursuit is still a crazy-busted move (let's be real, Pursuit is the only reason anyone should ever be considering moving Krook to S rank), it still checks a ton of shit. So what's the problem? Well, the issue is twofold. First, the kind of HO teams that Mega-Aero particularly excelled against have really started to dwindle in favor of BO teams that are way less threatened by it. Second, there are things that Mega-Aero should check, but it just doesn't. In particular I'm talking about Celebi and Conkeldurr, which take anything Aerodactyl can throw at them when healthy. The fact that they're both popular SHOULD be a selling point for Aero right now, but in practice you need to stack redundant checks to those two because if either of them are healthy, Aerodactyl doesn't actually beat them. It means that Aerodactyl is no longer the emergency button it once was, and often I find I have to sack something else to get chip damage off on Celebi/Conk before I can bring in Aero to revenge. It's still really really amazing, better than anything in A+, but I don't think it's quite at the level of Celebi/Hydra/Suicune.

Speaking of Suicune, here we have the opposite issue. By any reasonable metric, the rise of Conk and Celebi SHOULD mean Suicune drops, but in practice, I've actually found Suicune if anything better than it used to be. Part of this is because unlike Aero, Suicune was actually able to adjust to these drops so that neither one necessarily checkmates it. In particular, more offensive Suicunes have been growing more popular, especially SubCM (including variants such as Vincune, Ice Beam Cune and SubCM Roar), which don't necessarily counter Celebi/Conk but at least mean that Suicune isn't setup bait. Also, teams have been slapping on a Celebi or a Conkeldurr and assuming that they're covered against Suicune, which is something that a well-built team can really take advantage of. As I said above, I think Suicune is the second most dangerous setup sweeper in the tier, and I feel like I've won more games lately with Suicune than with any other Pokemon. It helps that Suicune never really was expected to check shit like offensive Grass types to begin with, so it doesn't actually strain teambuilding to account for Celebi when you're building with Suicune.

Anyhow, that was a really long and convoluted way of saying that I think the rankings look something like this in my head:

BEST OF THE BEST: Celebi, Hydreigon, Suicune
ALMOST THE BEST OF THE BEST: Aerodactyl-Mega
REALLY GODDAMNED GOOD: Sylveon, Krookodile, Entei, Conkeldurr
VERY GOOD: Everything else in A+/A

Besides that, we also made some minor changes to the lower rankings (they're still organized the same way, don't worry) to reflect the current metagame better. We've removed the 3 following Pokemon from the list: Druddigon, Shedinja and Venusaur. I don't think this covers all of the changes, but here are some of them along with their respective reasoning (written by dodmen):

Heliolisk: Rose from B to the bottom of B+, I think by now we've realized the power of the Specs set and that it can legitimately be dangerous with the right support. Great for chipping stuff with Specs Volt Switch as no Ground-type besides SpDef Mega Steelix has any business switching into Hyper Voice.

Sableye: Fell from B+ to B. I just think this is a liability a lot of the time with Sylveon & Conk so good, and it just doesn't have the bulk to come in and out of the field frequently enough. It's definitely something that you can find your offense randomly weak to, similar to randomly finding out your balance is weak to Jellicent, but not consistent enough for B+. Also, Specs Hydreigon increasing in popularity means that there's one less top threat that it can check (even though it could only "kind of" check LO Hydreigon in the first place) - Draco does 96-113%, Dark Pulse does 60-70% to 252/252+ Sableye.

Tyrantrum: Fell from B to B-. A wallbreaker with very few switchin opportunities, considering that it can't switch into Fire-types whatsoever (Infernape, Entei, Chandelure), or Flying types (only thing that comes close is a Crobat that doesn't U-turn on it). On top of that, it has enough switchins to be held in check a lot of the time and make it think twice about using its best move (Doublade, Swampert, Krook, Cobalion, Bronzong).

Cloyster: Feel from B- to C+. I brought this up in here a little while ago, because usually it just isn't worth using this over other shit that can lure/force in bulky waters. First of all, setting up isn't easy with a SR weak Pokemon with 1 relevant resist (Water, which is either Scald or backed by a secondary STAB like Knock Off or EQ) and that is literally OHKOd by Florges's Moonblast and rlies on Life Orb to kill the things it needs to. Furthermore, we're seeing a rise in things that don't even care too much about a +2 Cloyster; whereas before, it was used to lure Coba/Doublade with Hydro, now we're seeing Steels like Empoleon, Mega Aggron, Bronzong, and Metagross (it takes a +2 Life Orb Hydro Pump to kill 0/0 Metagross, bulkier ones can still take the hit). Not to mention that even if it does manage to setup vs offense, there's still things like priority from Conk/Entei/Ape/legendary Banette, offensive Empoleon/Tentacruel (Tenta just trades) that can stop Cloyster.

Diancie: Fell from B to B-, it's a cool Pokemon but struggles to keep rocks up vs Tenta, Empoleon, and Forretress; Hydreigon is running a lot more Steel coverage now too. It does manage to fit on some teams though, I just didn't think that was worth keeping in B anymore.

Machamp: dropped it from B- to C+, just faces so much competition but I could see an argument for it staying because of outspeeding Fairies + Heavy Slam (and DPunch obviously). Let me know if you disagree

Hoopa: dropped it from B- to C+, haven't seen it used at all recently and it struggles to break Sylveon anyway.

Virizion: dropped it from C+ to C, it was only rly good against like Alo/Bliss/Steel/Tang or Chesnaught/Mence stall. Now it has to pick between running Stone Edge (which it has to hit shit like Crobat and Beedrill on the switch with anyway) or X-Scissor (which leaves it helpless against those and more). Easily checked by Cress, U-turn Gligar, and just a ton more so I think C is better. We can wait till Tony's project ends but from watching and trying to build w/ it with Bouff there's way too much to be desired.

Qwilfish: dropped it from C+ to C, gets Defogged/spun on by literally everything, doesn't check anything it needs to (Beedrill, Fightings, Entei).

Dropped Goodra and Seismitoad to C- too, just way more worthwhile Pokemon to use over these two, lemme know if you disagree

Unranked Shedinja cause Mence leaving means supporting it is that much harder. Drud and Venusaur are pretty self explanatory.

Since these are some pretty massive changes, feel free to ask questions if there's anything concerning you regarding the rankings. As far as new nominations go, the team considered adding Pangoro to C-, but I'd like to hear what the community thinks of that before going forward with it (Tony, this is your time to shine). Happy posting!

 

[Asspull]

Hey guys you forgot to place mega snow somewhere in the rankings. Not anywhere on the list

 

[Pearl]

Hey guys you forgot to place mega snow somewhere in the rankings. Not anywhere on the list

what are you talking about lol fixed! f dodmen