Who the hell uses mega abomisnow in uu
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ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter dingbat
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actually, it's pretty nice currently. it's not bad.
Mega Abomasnow is certainly a viable mon in UU, having solid offensive STABs in a heavily water dominated metagame and its unique typing helps it check the ever so threatening suicune, mega pert, and most bulky waters in general. Being able to revenge mence is also always nice, and its sd set has eq to dent annoying steels not named mega aggron or bronzong. It's honestly a pretty solid anti-meta mon atm, and even with the ever so common fighting like heracross, mienshao, and frens, abomasnow still functions pretty well in the metagame.
Nominating Tyrantrum for B+. Rock Head isn't QUITE as good as Contrary, but it sure as hell has a lot more turn 1 power, including 2HKOing Suicune without Rocks.
252+ Atk Life Orb Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 218-257 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
The Rock Polish set is an insanely deadly cleaner, while Hone Claws could break stall in half. It also has a very interesting typing, letting it eat up every Fire-type attack in the tier. With a Lum Berry, it can even check Entei. Unfortunately, every Fire-type also has a move that can break through it (Close Combat, Iron Head, Bulldoze, Earthquake, Superpower, Shadow Ball), but if you can get around those then you shouldn't be hurting too much. It also is a great Flying check, basically shutting down Crobat completely, forcing it to U-turn out, since Head Smash OHKOs after Rocks even if it tries to Roost. It's 2HKO'd by Mega Pidgeot's Hurricane, but assuming you switch in on literally any other move you're pretty safe to just break it in two with Head Smash. Its movepool isn't too terribly deep, but it does get Stealth Rock, and with a meaty base 119 Defense, it's certainly capable of eating up some physical hits. I could even see it being run as a dedicated Entei check with Wish and Heal Bell support, given just how stupid fucking hard it hits with Head Smash, sorta like Granbull using its base 120 Attack, only hitting literally more than half-again as hard.
Now, on to why Tyrantrum shouldn't (currently, I've played like four games with it) go any higher: Its bad speed and Special Defense. Base 71 Speed isn't a lot (just ask Honchkrow) and base 59 Special Defense is just sorta laughable. While you should be eating Mega Pidgeot's Hurricane and scaring it right the fuck out, you just get 2HKO'd after Rocks if you aren't running some serious SpDef bulk. Well, actually, SpDef is kinda cool, given how much base Defense you have. I'll get back to that later.
Its speed is really disappointing. Its outsped by a fair number of Scarfers even at +2 if it's Adamant, which it really appreciates for the power. Notable among these are Hydreigon, Salamence, Infernape, and Mienshao, all of whom OHKO with a super-effective STAB move. This is why I'm fully convinced a Dragon Dance set is a waste of time. Even Jolly, you're outsped by a fair number of unboosted Pokemon, and Mega Sceptile pretty much uses you as a punching bag in particular.
Its typing is cool when you're facing down Crobat and Darmanitan, but not so much when you're facing stuff with Steel, Fighting, Ground, Ice, Dragon, or Fairy attacks. Six weaknesses, three of which are hilariously common in UU, is a huge issue given his poor speed.
Closing thoughts: Hone Claws can/will destroy stall, you could even pair it with Heracross as a Crobat switch-in. This works really well since anything that can conceivably switch in on a boosted Head Smash Heracross destroys. A SpDef set or Assault Vest is an option, letting you check Mega Pidgeot more comfortably. Apologies if this started to get really disjointed and bizarre, I got sidetracked and wrote this out over a few hours.
252+ Atk Life Orb Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 218-257 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
The Rock Polish set is an insanely deadly cleaner, while Hone Claws could break stall in half. It also has a very interesting typing, letting it eat up every Fire-type attack in the tier. With a Lum Berry, it can even check Entei. Unfortunately, every Fire-type also has a move that can break through it (Close Combat, Iron Head, Bulldoze, Earthquake, Superpower, Shadow Ball), but if you can get around those then you shouldn't be hurting too much. It also is a great Flying check, basically shutting down Crobat completely, forcing it to U-turn out, since Head Smash OHKOs after Rocks even if it tries to Roost. It's 2HKO'd by Mega Pidgeot's Hurricane, but assuming you switch in on literally any other move you're pretty safe to just break it in two with Head Smash. Its movepool isn't too terribly deep, but it does get Stealth Rock, and with a meaty base 119 Defense, it's certainly capable of eating up some physical hits. I could even see it being run as a dedicated Entei check with Wish and Heal Bell support, given just how stupid fucking hard it hits with Head Smash, sorta like Granbull using its base 120 Attack, only hitting literally more than half-again as hard.
Now, on to why Tyrantrum shouldn't (currently, I've played like four games with it) go any higher: Its bad speed and Special Defense. Base 71 Speed isn't a lot (just ask Honchkrow) and base 59 Special Defense is just sorta laughable. While you should be eating Mega Pidgeot's Hurricane and scaring it right the fuck out, you just get 2HKO'd after Rocks if you aren't running some serious SpDef bulk. Well, actually, SpDef is kinda cool, given how much base Defense you have. I'll get back to that later.
Its speed is really disappointing. Its outsped by a fair number of Scarfers even at +2 if it's Adamant, which it really appreciates for the power. Notable among these are Hydreigon, Salamence, Infernape, and Mienshao, all of whom OHKO with a super-effective STAB move. This is why I'm fully convinced a Dragon Dance set is a waste of time. Even Jolly, you're outsped by a fair number of unboosted Pokemon, and Mega Sceptile pretty much uses you as a punching bag in particular.
Its typing is cool when you're facing down Crobat and Darmanitan, but not so much when you're facing stuff with Steel, Fighting, Ground, Ice, Dragon, or Fairy attacks. Six weaknesses, three of which are hilariously common in UU, is a huge issue given his poor speed.
Closing thoughts: Hone Claws can/will destroy stall, you could even pair it with Heracross as a Crobat switch-in. This works really well since anything that can conceivably switch in on a boosted Head Smash Heracross destroys. A SpDef set or Assault Vest is an option, letting you check Mega Pidgeot more comfortably. Apologies if this started to get really disjointed and bizarre, I got sidetracked and wrote this out over a few hours.
One question, as I don't play much UU: why is Trevenant D rank and considered ineffective?
Gourgeist outclasses it almost completely defensively by having actual bulk and access to Synthesis and Foul Play, while the only thing trev has to offer is pseudo-status immunity with lum+harvest, which doesn't make up for the other stuff it lacks. And Gourgeist is a PU mon, which kinda speaks volumes.
Offensively is the only place it has a niche, and a band set with natural cure is ok but it's still overall very meh and it just doesn't deserve to be in the tier at all.
Gourgeist-XL deserves to move up btw but I'll elaborate later.
Offensively is the only place it has a niche, and a band set with natural cure is ok but it's still overall very meh and it just doesn't deserve to be in the tier at all.
Gourgeist-XL deserves to move up btw but I'll elaborate later.
Not trying to defend Trevenant here at all, but it does have 7 more Special Defense than Gourgiest, although that isn't much of a reason at all to really use it
Mega Banette needs to be on viability and I recommend C
Alright Mega banette not a great mega and overall not a great mon however it is far more useful than scrafty and frankly has a better niche than mega lix. Banette beats most setup sweepers due to the fact that it has priority d bond, status, and knock off. Turn one u dbond turn two u knock off then rinse and repeat. While mega banette must mega before it is useful however mega banette does not even need to be healthy to do its job so you can mega on most attacks. Another flaw is that by using banette u lose the chance to use a better mega however with mega lix and mega audino in C I feel as if banette could fit there. Overall its a decent enough mon to where it should at the very least be ranked.
Alright Mega banette not a great mega and overall not a great mon however it is far more useful than scrafty and frankly has a better niche than mega lix. Banette beats most setup sweepers due to the fact that it has priority d bond, status, and knock off. Turn one u dbond turn two u knock off then rinse and repeat. While mega banette must mega before it is useful however mega banette does not even need to be healthy to do its job so you can mega on most attacks. Another flaw is that by using banette u lose the chance to use a better mega however with mega lix and mega audino in C I feel as if banette could fit there. Overall its a decent enough mon to where it should at the very least be ranked.
Ima have to piggy back on my buddy thisbemyalt here. While mega banette may be a shitty mega, it definitely has a niche. Even just one niche, and its a decent niche tbf deserves at least C rank. Prankster is such a bastard ability and everyone knows it. its a fabulous sweeper stopper due to priority d bond and u cant be touched by espeed. Not to mention prankster willos can be fun as well. I know it gets ohkod by a cold breeze and its usually a wasted mega and its slower than a snail, but it definitely deserves to make it on the list.
Snow warning aurorus will probably be worse than regular aurorus.
Regular aurorus is unusable.
i'll figure out a way to get it on the viability rankings y/y
Besides, Sableye leaving UU leaves as the only Prankster Spin Blocker in the tier.
Lot of stuff I see that could be changed.
Hydreigon A+ > A
Mienshao A+ > A
Hippowdon B+ > A-
Gligar A- > B+
Moltres C > B-
Hitmonlee Unranked > C
Mienshao A+ > A
Hippowdon B+ > A-
Gligar A- > B+
Moltres C > B-
Hitmonlee Unranked > C
Salamence and Heracross’s rise to prominence brings along with it a whole slew of fairies, all of which stop Hydreigon. In addition, Hydreigon is now competing with Mence for a team slot even in special attacking roles. Hydreigon still has its LO set going for it along with U-Turn. But those alone make it sit at A rank for me.
Again, the rise in popularity of Mence and Heracross brings with it many of the top stops to Mienshao. Examples include: Hippowdon, Florges, Aromatisse, etc. Mien simply can’t break through them and still has to find a way to punch past Crobat. Also, a Mienshao choice-locked into High Jump Kick gives Salamence a free Dragon Dance, which is something you never want to do. These shifts in the meta also leave Mienshao sitting at A rank in my head.
Hippowdon is one of the few ‘mons capable of reliably phazing Salamence. Its monstrous physical bulk allows it to take on top threats like Heracross, Mienshao, non-Life Orb Hydreigon, among others. While Ground-type doesn’t do Hippowdon too many favors, it does provide a useful Electic immunity and a resistance to Stealth Rock. Hippowdon is also one of the most capable Stealth Rock setters in the tier, even avoiding pressure from the tiers hardest hitters. Slack Off just provides additional survivability allowing you to perform your duty throughout the match. Setting up sand also allows Hippo to partner extremely well with the best mon in the tier, Mega Aerodactyl. These warrant a shift from B+ to A- for me.
Gligar is set up bait for Mence. It fails to beat Taunt Mega Aero and in general is forced to Roost more often than not. Moreover, the tiers vulnerability to Knock Off leave Gligar looking for partners who can take on powerful Dark-types which is no easy task given Krookodile’s prominence in the tier. It gets pressured too easily once its eviolite is gone. Deserving of B+ imo.
Moltres is nearly impossible to switch into barring stuff like Florges and Blissey. It isn’t the fastest thing and it’s really weak to Stealth Rocks but its wall-breaking capabilities are deserving of B-
With Starmie leaving the tier, we have one offensive hazard remover, Crobat. While Crobat is really good, it can’t fit on EVERY team. Only other mons that really fit the bill as offensive hazard removal are Shiftry, Skuntank, Empoleon, and Hitmonlee. Hitmonlee’s position as the only offensive spinner grant him a niche deserving of C rank. Also Reckless LO HJK hurts like a bitch.
Agreed with all of these. Can't really say much on each mon either as Meowie pretty much stated the whole reason why they should be shifted up or down.
agree with hippo, haven't done much with the others tho.
Lapras!
First off, I want to defend the pokemon you practically called terrible in your post. Arcanine is a fantastic pokemon that is incredibly versatile ranging from a physically defensive wilowisper, to an all out attacker with reliable priority. Unfortunately, Arcanine's best moveset is outclassed by Entei. Arcanine deserves B rank because of this but once it gets out of a tier where it is outclassed (Like RU), he will no doubt shine far greater than he has in UU. B rank is very respectful for a Pokemon that is outclassed pretty heavily.
Roserade is not anything to laugh at as well. Just sleep powder and spike up. Oh you brought in a grass type to take powder, how do you take a stab sludge bomb? If you are tired of defensive pokes and want an offensive attacker then not a problem. Add a life orb, put on leaf storm, and walla! You've got a a suicune killer. Roserade can also switch into a florges and apply pressure with its poison stab/typing. You also never have a wasted force switch with stuff like powders and spikes.
Now that we got that out of the way, lets talk about Blissey. B rank is great. All pokemon that make it here deserve a blue ribbon so I dont know why you are complaining. There is a lot of physical pressure on the tier at the moment with Heracross and Salamence dropping. Since Jirachi is gone, Mega Aerodactyl is a major threat as well. Now in this day and age of UU, you are asking for a pokemon with 10 base defense to rise in rank? Preposterous! Heracross can switch fairly easily into a blissey. Sure you can status but now you have to take a hit from a guts boosted possibly banded herocross. It gives me chills just typing it. As long as your blissey is in play a heracross can switch into it. It takes three seismic tosses to kill hera and it you go for status first turn then it is two pokes dead to save blissey after the status. Blissey is set up bait for a lot of common things too. Reuniclous is getting more and more popular and no need to mention crocune. Let the fat ass dwell in B rank.
First off, I want to defend the pokemon you practically called terrible in your post. Arcanine is a fantastic pokemon that is incredibly versatile ranging from a physically defensive wilowisper, to an all out attacker with reliable priority. Unfortunately, Arcanine's best moveset is outclassed by Entei. Arcanine deserves B rank because of this but once it gets out of a tier where it is outclassed (Like RU), he will no doubt shine far greater than he has in UU. B rank is very respectful for a Pokemon that is outclassed pretty heavily.
Roserade is not anything to laugh at as well. Just sleep powder and spike up. Oh you brought in a grass type to take powder, how do you take a stab sludge bomb? If you are tired of defensive pokes and want an offensive attacker then not a problem. Add a life orb, put on leaf storm, and walla! You've got a a suicune killer. Roserade can also switch into a florges and apply pressure with its poison stab/typing. You also never have a wasted force switch with stuff like powders and spikes.
Now that we got that out of the way, lets talk about Blissey. B rank is great. All pokemon that make it here deserve a blue ribbon so I dont know why you are complaining. There is a lot of physical pressure on the tier at the moment with Heracross and Salamence dropping. Since Jirachi is gone, Mega Aerodactyl is a major threat as well. Now in this day and age of UU, you are asking for a pokemon with 10 base defense to rise in rank? Preposterous! Heracross can switch fairly easily into a blissey. Sure you can status but now you have to take a hit from a guts boosted possibly banded herocross. It gives me chills just typing it. As long as your blissey is in play a heracross can switch into it. It takes three seismic tosses to kill hera and it you go for status first turn then it is two pokes dead to save blissey after the status. Blissey is set up bait for a lot of common things too. Reuniclous is getting more and more popular and no need to mention crocune. Let the fat ass dwell in B rank.
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You'd best add that into your other post to prevent double-posting. Just sayin', is all.
Thank you, Meowiekins, for backing me on that Hydreigon nomination. It really does suffer horribly from Salamence's and Heracross' presence, but I didn't even think of all the Fairies and other Pokemon that Hydreigon struggles with that the two of those bring to the forefront.
Just becuse there is physical pressure on the tier doesn't mean there aren't special attackers blissey needs to wall. Of course you're not going to stay in on Heracross, that would be silly. But you can seismic toss on the switch which takes off about a third off it's health. When playing stall, or semi stall even, that is a lot of damage to do in one go, especially to something that wears itself down as quickly as heracross does. Then you can switch to your heracross check and force it out again. You're also ignoring blissey's many virtues which make it such a great pokemon. All you have done is listed a few pokemon which force Blissey out. Obviously walls are going to have certain pokemon that break through them. I don't think you have said enough to justify Blissey staying in B Rank. your arguments are based on it staying in on hera, as if walling heracross is something Blissey is expected to do.
I'll second Lapras! on Blissey moving to A- rank. It brings so much support to bulkier teams and its ability to wall a plethora of Special attackers better than anything else in the tier is amazing, as well as a reasonable ability to wall a decent amount of physical mons that are uninvested in attacking power. Its wishes are beautiful and it is basically the king of stall/semi-stall at the moment, as both playstyles would be worse off without it. And note that the Physical attackers that force Blissey out, if they come in on a Wish it is easy to switch in your check/counter and fully restore it up to full as long as it can take the hit, which no other mon is capable of and makes it so much easier to stay in the game.
I'd also like to second Milotic moving up to C-rank, but for a different reason. It's access to Haze imo is the reason why you would use it. This allows it to be a nice last resort to multiple setup sweepers that are unaccounted for in the teambuilding process, as every now and then there are lower tier mons with niche sets brought up that are unforeseen, that Milotic with great naturally mixed bulk can stop. It also works as a great stop to ALL Suicune sets, as some that are supposed Suicune checks/counters lose to CM Cunes carrying Roar which can beat boosters alongside it (eg. CM Slowking) or Phazers as Suicune generally outspeeds them with Roar and 85 base speed. This with its access to Recover makes it the best user of Haze in the metagame, reliably walling said threats throughout the match. It can also pull off other niches such as Mirror Coat as a Grass/electric-type bait, and if the team is in need of a more SpDef water but don't want the added weaknesses of Slowking's Psychic typing. I think all this warrants itself at least a good enough niche.
Lastly, I'd like to nominate Bronzong to move to B or B+ rank. The metagame has become very friendly with an increase in popularity of mons which it walls quite well, notably the Nidos, Aero, Crobat, most Salamence, Shaymin, M-Aboma and new threat Tyrantrum as well as others making it a quite nice defensive addition to a lot of teams.
I'd also like to second Milotic moving up to C-rank, but for a different reason. It's access to Haze imo is the reason why you would use it. This allows it to be a nice last resort to multiple setup sweepers that are unaccounted for in the teambuilding process, as every now and then there are lower tier mons with niche sets brought up that are unforeseen, that Milotic with great naturally mixed bulk can stop. It also works as a great stop to ALL Suicune sets, as some that are supposed Suicune checks/counters lose to CM Cunes carrying Roar which can beat boosters alongside it (eg. CM Slowking) or Phazers as Suicune generally outspeeds them with Roar and 85 base speed. This with its access to Recover makes it the best user of Haze in the metagame, reliably walling said threats throughout the match. It can also pull off other niches such as Mirror Coat as a Grass/electric-type bait, and if the team is in need of a more SpDef water but don't want the added weaknesses of Slowking's Psychic typing. I think all this warrants itself at least a good enough niche.
Lastly, I'd like to nominate Bronzong to move to B or B+ rank. The metagame has become very friendly with an increase in popularity of mons which it walls quite well, notably the Nidos, Aero, Crobat, most Salamence, Shaymin, M-Aboma and new threat Tyrantrum as well as others making it a quite nice defensive addition to a lot of teams.
I think Porygon2 needs to move up to at least B, maybe even B+.
The reasoning for this is with powerhouses like Salamence and Mega-Aerodactyl high in the tier, Porygon2 is an excellent counter to both. The physically defensive set almost counters every physical attacker that has no Knock Off or is Fighting-type. It can recover anything back with Recover, and potentially cripple these physical attackers with T-Wave or put a timer to their longevity with Toxic. For example, even Choice Band Crobat, Choice Band Adamant Entei and Mega Swampert fail to break through, while Porygon2 can strike back with a Tri Attack, or stall them out with Toxic. I know stuff like Mienshao and Lucario can easily beat this thing, but still.
Lastly, it can also cripple several walls i.e Gligar without Immunity, Vaporeon, Hippowdon, and Florges with Toxic, slowly wearing them down. Itself is suspectible to status too, but if you pair it up with a good cleric, you should be fine. (Or you can be cool and bounce all back with Magic Coat B) )
The reasoning for this is with powerhouses like Salamence and Mega-Aerodactyl high in the tier, Porygon2 is an excellent counter to both. The physically defensive set almost counters every physical attacker that has no Knock Off or is Fighting-type. It can recover anything back with Recover, and potentially cripple these physical attackers with T-Wave or put a timer to their longevity with Toxic. For example, even Choice Band Crobat, Choice Band Adamant Entei and Mega Swampert fail to break through, while Porygon2 can strike back with a Tri Attack, or stall them out with Toxic. I know stuff like Mienshao and Lucario can easily beat this thing, but still.
note; i calced with some spreads from the calc itself, but also ones listed on analyses
252+ Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 114-135 (30.4 - 36%) -- 45.1% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 96-114 (25.6 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 122-146 (32.6 - 39%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 118-139 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- 81.3% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 153-180 (40.9 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 103-123 (27.5 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (this does fucking nothing)
252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 114-135 (30.4 - 36%) -- 45.1% chance to 3HKO (note; i know this has Knock Off but I'm calcing Choice Band, and it will be locked into that, so it won't do much more)
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 118-139 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- 81.3% chance to 3HKO.
252+ Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 114-135 (30.4 - 36%) -- 45.1% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 96-114 (25.6 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 122-146 (32.6 - 39%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 118-139 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- 81.3% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 153-180 (40.9 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 103-123 (27.5 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (this does fucking nothing)
252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 114-135 (30.4 - 36%) -- 45.1% chance to 3HKO (note; i know this has Knock Off but I'm calcing Choice Band, and it will be locked into that, so it won't do much more)
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 118-139 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- 81.3% chance to 3HKO.
Lastly, it can also cripple several walls i.e Gligar without Immunity, Vaporeon, Hippowdon, and Florges with Toxic, slowly wearing them down. Itself is suspectible to status too, but if you pair it up with a good cleric, you should be fine. (Or you can be cool and bounce all back with Magic Coat B) )
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Toxicing Umbreon sounds like a horrible idea, since it just poisons you as well while it can carry Heal Bell. Porygon is also pressured horribly by Heracross, who can just Knock Off its Eviolite first if it doesn't want to KO with Close Combat. And Porygon NEVER wants to take a Knock Off, especially against CB Krook, who then 2HKOs with Earthquake when it switches out. Alternately, if you've already taken ~30%, you just get 2HKO'd by Knock Off after Rocks since, even though it no longer gets the item boost, it does 50% more damage anyway because you lost Eviolite. Not to poo-poo on other stuff P2 can do since it's a decent wall to other Pokemon, but it should never be eating a Knock Off unless you have absolutely no other alternative.
I said already, Fighting-types and mons with Knock Off isnt a good idea. And yes, Umbreon was a dumb example, I forgot about that, but regardless, my opinion stays.
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