OU CCAT: Zoroark [See Post #663]

[bubbly]

Backing Substitute personally for the reasons I gave on the previous page, Sucker Punch second preferred followed by Nasty Plot.

As for team style, I'd like to go with weatherless offense too, focusing on abusing Substitute. Apart from maintaining Zoroark's Illusion, if we run Substitute on an offensive pokemon which doesn't usually run it we can easily get a double bluff situation. Zoroark clearly doesn't get much benefit from any kind of weather; it doesn't mind Sun but Sun limits the team options a lot and I don't feel like its best members synergise well with Zoro.

 

[alexwolf]

Weatherless offense with Protect is my choice, as Katakiri's team and way of playing with Zoroark caught my attention!

 

[The Truth]

Weatherless offense seems like the team type that zoroark would function best in; it gives us more freedom with our members, allowing pokes that synergize better with zoroark and therefore abuse illusion better. The only issue I see with weatherless offense is playing against sand. With residual damage active, zoroark will have a lot of trouble maintaining its illusion due to damage percentages. Something that generally wouldn't take sand damage taking it will also break zoroark's illusion pretty quickly. It's not a really huge issue, but it's an issue regardless.

My move of choice for the fourth slot would have to be substitute. The issues with protect have already been brought up, and they're fair, though i can certainly see the benefits of the move. However, running a Protect set would force us to either run leftovers or immediately give zoroark away, as generally mons that run protect will also have lefties attached. We would have to sacrifice either the power boost of Life Orb or the benefits of Illusion, and Illusion is basically the only thing zoroark has over other sweepers. I like substitute on the set, because while disguised as another offensive mon, we can force a switch and nab our substitute without raising suspicion, then score a KO with zoroark on the opponent's counter to the sweeper we're disguised as. This way, zoro will be able to open up holes in the opponent's team and allow other team members to sweep. This allows zoroark to remain the focus of our team and also be an extremely powerful support pokemon, assisting the rest of the team while they assist it by providing disguises for it.

 

[The QWAZ]

I think sun offense would be good because zoroark gets a pseudo STAB on flamethrower and can bluff it's self as a nasty plot ninetales

EDIT 100th post WOOOOO

 

[Challenger]

Sun would be interesting, because a Nasty Plot Ninetales/Infernape with flamethrower set would fit well with illusion.

 

[Blatreutka]

About the 4th move slot debate, I think protect definitely has its merits. Most people think of Zoroark as having one chance in a match to abuse Illusion. With NP (and Sub to a certain extent) that's true, but Katakiri's team uses Protect to let it come in over and over, which lets it abuse Illusion to a much greater extent. Many people react to seeing Zoroark in odd ways (like using a fighting attack on a NP Mew for example) because they are constantly thinking about what Zoroark could be hiding as or when it will show up. When you protect with Zoroark, it doesn't matter that your opponent knows that it's Zoroark because at that point, it's not about killing something, it's about gauging your opponents reaction and creating mind games that an intelligent player can capitalize on. You can take advantage of your opponents mispredictions when it isn't Zoroark as much as or even more than if it is, giving you free turns to wear down their team, set hazards, set up, etc. Anyway, that's my opinion on the matter. Using Zoroark like Katakiri's team does takes a while to understand all the subtle nuances like setting up team preview that most people (including myself) don't even think of.

EDIT: For the team style, though it limits the team mate options, physically based heavy offense seems to fit well with Zoroark on paper. You can use physical attackers that are walled by Skarm, Slowbro, etc and use Zoroark to eliminate them. It may be a little too obvious when it comes in though.

 

[bubbly]

That would be true if Protect actually did anything except give the opponent information. It doesn't let it come in over and over like you say. The only benefit is to scout the opponents move, risk them setting up on that turn, while in return you lose your opportunity to create pressure with the 4th slot, and tell the opponent that the thing in front of them is probably Zoro. None of the arguments you gave, Blatreuka, do anything more than say that Protect instigates mindgames. But I don't see why those mindgames are more beneficial to the Zoro user than the ones you'd get with a different move, or even with no 4th move. I just feel like going down that path of relying completely on the mindgames, instead of a move like Substitute which gives you a safety net, will just make the set and the whole team too luck and prediction based.

 

[Pocket]

What about running BOTH Substitute & Nasty Plot? Zoroark already attained virtually perfect coverage with Dark Pulse and Focus Blast, so it does have room for 2 support moves. This makes use of Illusion in 2 ways:

1) It can eliminate a counter of its fellow Substitute sweeper by using Illusion to pretend as that Sub Sweeper
2) It can find free opportunities to set up its own sweep by using Illusion to pretend as anyone of the teammates.

With Substitute, Zoroark can aid its teammate(s) by mimicking it to eliminate its counter. However, if the opponent somehow figures out the identity as Zoroark, it will not be able to accomplish much if the opponent carries a special wall. Rather than cutting Zoroark's usefulness short after its identity is known, why not give it Nasty Plot to still pack a punch? It would make using Zoroark more flexible, imo, being able to pretend as teammates without Substitute and still be threatening by pressuring the opponent with a potential Nasty Plot sweep. Substitute also protects frail Zoroark from revenge-killers that NP + 3 Atks would be vulnerable.

The main drawback in going Sub Plot is the loss of Flamethrower, which may hinder its ability to eliminate certain counters for its teammates. If opponent lacks a dedicated special wall, Zoroark would not need Nasty Plot to inflict heavy damage, either. However, Nasty Plot is certainly desirable for wallbreaking purposes, which is only enhanced by Illusion and would help fellow special sweepers.

PS: As for playstyle, offensive > defensive, imo to best make use of Zoroark. Sun and Rain Offense are possibilities for some weather control; the latter is possible since it does not necessarily need Flamethrower, as suggested above. Sand and Hail Offense is out of the question, though, since the residual damage would be intolerable. Sand will also restrict Zoroark's Illusion partners, since Zoroark cannot effectively pretend as a Rock / Sand / Steel-type.

 

[jc104]

I definitely wouldn't want to run Sun "for weather control", simply because Ninetales is the worst weather starter, giving the least control. There are so many extremely dangerous things to use in sun already.

Rain, though, I could see working if we changed the set to the one Pocket suggested.

 

[The QWAZ]

the issue with rain is that, there is not much you could hide zoroark as a swords dance toxicroak perhaps, but the game is up when the opponent sees the lack of dry skin recovery and stealth rock neutrality, while in sun flamethrower gets a big boost and if you hide it as a nasty plot infernape for example no-one will likely u turn or bullet punch on hat they thinks resist's it.

 

[jc104]

I don't think Nasty Plot Infernape is a good thing to use in the sun, or at all to be honest. Same with NP Ninetales. Infernape is much better off just attacking.

Definitely not disguising as a Toxicroak either. I think you need to consider parnters more carefully. They have to take similar hazard damage, for starters. It's not necessary that they have a boosting move of some sort, either.

 

[The QWAZ]

Well if we were to use rain, what wold you suggest as a partner with a simmilar move pool entry hazard damage ect. I was only using SD croak as an example and i really cant think of anything elese

 

[bubbly]

Yeah there aren't that many for rain. Azumarill and Jolteon are the two best I can think of. Other stuff, like Vaporeon and Celebi, doesn't synergise offensively as well but takes the same entry hazard damage as Zoro.

 

[SlimMan]

Well, spring break is over, classes start back up again tomorrow (although my first one is Tuesday afternoon :P), and the next stage of CCAT is in progress.

For Zoroark, I am not a fan of Protect. Although it is excellent for scouting, particularly on Zoroark, as it can clue you in on your opponent's state of mind, how they react to a potential Zoroark, etc., I feel that it's utility is limited. It works one turn at a time. If the move that your opponent used threatens Zoroark, you still have to switch out, and this can be hard to play off of. It doesn't stop anything that would normally stop Zoroark, and it take a skilled player to adequately use the mind games Protect can play. I feel that a team like Katakiri's is required to make Protect an effective move, and re-creating that sort of team, almost imitating it, isn't what CCAT is about.
I am very much a supporter of Sub+NP. Early game it will play much like a Sub Breloom or a Sub Gengar, subbing to save itself from hits, get the right move off against the switch-in, etc. While it still retains the utility of sweeping later on. And it can actually get both somewhat easily. If your opponent switches to their Gliscor counter, Jellicent, as you NP, you end up with a Sub as they bring in their Conkeldurr, and are now protected from Mach Punch. It has additional merit in that so many Pokemon can run Substitute, while Protect is a little limited in what viably uses it. The loss of Flamethrower is initially off-putting, but the only Steel-type who is surviving a +2 Focus Blast would be SpDef Jirachi, which still takes a crippling blow. What if we can't get +2? Well, Heatran and Ferrothorn are covered at +0, Metagross and most Bronzong are 2HKO'ed by Dark Pulse, and Scizor is revenging us regardless (unless we have a Sub up - oh look, another merit of Substitute). Flamethrower is really not necessary.

As for the team style, I am absolutely for an Offensive team. Offensive is an umbrella-term, as it should be. I don't want to say Weatherless. We may get 5 members selected, and then realize that Politoed is the perfect 6th member. I don't want to prohibit us from selecting him as our final member in that sort of case. But I don't say a Weather either, because I want us to build our team around Zoroark, not abusing a weather condition. I feel that if a weather inducer is chosen, it should be as the 5th or 6th Pokemon on the team.
Offensive also encompasses everything from Balanced-leaning-offensively to Bulky Offense to Heavy and/or Hyper Offense. I don't think we need to be that specific at this stage of the CCAT. I feel that we should see where Zoroark takes us. I am personally against an extremely offensive team, like Dual Screens + 5 sweepers, because Zoroark does require switching to be at its most effective, and such teams leave little room for switching. I would like to see a aggressive, offensively-based Balance team, but that's up for discussion later.
Defensive teams don't seem to work as well for Zoroark imo. Once you get the surprise kill, you take advantage of it much less immediately, and a good opponent might have time to recover from it, depending on just how crucial the kill was. The opponent will be less panicky, because you're team won't petrify them of being swept if they guess wrong. I don't think it plays itself to Zoroark's strengths, Illusion and mind games, very well.

I think ginganinja expressed my sentiments the best on page 10, so I'll leave it at what I've said already.

 

[Blatreutka]

That would be true if Protect actually did anything except give the opponent information. It doesn't let it come in over and over like you say. The only benefit is to scout the opponents move, risk them setting up on that turn, while in return you lose your opportunity to create pressure with the 4th slot, and tell the opponent that the thing in front of them is probably Zoro. None of the arguments you gave, Blatreuka, do anything more than say that Protect instigates mindgames. But I don't see why those mindgames are more beneficial to the Zoro user than the ones you'd get with a different move, or even with no 4th move. I just feel like going down that path of relying completely on the mindgames, instead of a move like Substitute which gives you a safety net, will just make the set and the whole team too luck and prediction based.

I agree with most of your points, but there are a few things I want to clarify. First, my original point was that Protect lets Zoro abuse Illusion more than once (though I agree with the difficulty in switching in, that's definitely an issue), which I think is key for any Zoro based team. Most people play Zoro as a sort of one-off heavy hitter that either works well or fails miserably because your opponent is intuitive enough to tell when it is Zoroark (its normally pretty easy to tell). Protect, unlike Sub, lets it stay at full health, thus letting it abuse illusion more often. The main issue I have with Sub is that even though it acts as a safety net, it still lowers Zoro's health, which means that it ruins any future use of Illusion. That's why the mindgames created by using protect are much more easily abused than those created by any other Zoro set. Now, I'm not saying that Protect is the best answer because its not easy to play a team based around mindgames effectively. Maybe it is just better to consider Zoro a one-off 'mon, but I have to say that its much less fun and often less effective.

 

[SlimMan]

Thank you, Blatreutka.

I agree with most of your points, but there are a few things I want to clarify. First, my original point was that Protect lets Zoro abuse Illusion more than once (though I agree with the difficulty in switching in, that's definitely an issue), which I think is key for any Zoro based team. Most people play Zoro as a sort of one-off heavy hitter that either works well or fails miserably because your opponent is intuitive enough to tell when it is Zoroark (its normally pretty easy to tell). Protect, unlike Sub, lets it stay at full health, thus letting it abuse illusion more often. The main issue I have with Sub is that even though it acts as a safety net, it still lowers Zoro's health, which means that it ruins any future use of Illusion. That's why the mindgames created by using protect are much more easily abused than those created by any other Zoro set. Now, I'm not saying that Protect is the best answer because its not easy to play a team based around mindgames effectively. Maybe it is just better to consider Zoro a one-off 'mon, but I have to say that its much less fun and often less effective.

I bolded and underlined THE most important thing in this post.
It's something that I had utterly forgotten about, and that really needs to be addressed. Most people seem to agree that Substitute is better than Protect, and I agree, but the second you use Substitute, Illusion is gone. You'll be at a different health than the Pokemon you're masquerading as, and the opponent can remember that Zoroark is the one missing 25% of its health.
This can be avoided if the Pokemon Zoroark is disguised as also has Substitute - it could use the move later on and then they would both be at 75%, re-creating the Illusion. But that could be awfully hard to pull off in the average match.
Life Orb has a similar problem, but it's much easier to have another Pokemon take the same amount of LO recoil than it is to have the other Pokemon take the same amount of Sub damage.

I still support Substitute (and Nasty Plot) as I said directly above this post. But the health differentials that Substitute would create are something that I think might have been forgotten in this thread.

 

[Woodchuck]

Hi, I kind of went and read through... most of the past couple rounds of discussion. (I'm kind of disappointed that Zoroark was chosen as I'm not a big fan but hey, maybe this'll change my mind)

I'm a big fan of momentum-based battling, and what really stands out about Zoroark to me is his ability to gain momentum. Yeah, I sort of agree with Katakiri that Zoroark can be a good Pokemon on his own, but the main trait about Zoroark is Illusion, and by extension, the way Illusion can net you opportunities to win momentum. The way I see it, if Illusion throws the opponent off and forces the opponent to make a mistake even once, Zoroark has done his job. Zoroark is far and away a Pokemon that creates opportunities for you to break away the game.

But, as ginganinja said, those opportunities quickly vanish the longer the game lasts. It also forces you to keep the Pokemon that you plan to disguise Zoroark as in reserve -- meaning that until Zoroark gets its opportunity, you have effectively two near-useless Pokemon.

Consequently, the best strategy for a team based around Zoroark is one that focuses on getting just one opportunity to break away with the game (whether that is killing a crucial Pokemon with Zoroark or forcing the opponent to leave himself open to another Pokemon by dealing with Zoroark) and maximizes that advantage to the point where it can win you the game.

If Zoroark's player can't afford a mistake when trying to use him, [hyper offense] has the best chance of putting the opponent in a similar bind, after which it's a question of who can withstand the pressure more effectively.

Pretty much this.

So yeah, hyper offense is definitely the best playstyle here.

As for sun... Sun teams are extremely rigid in their synergy and makeup. They always need certain Pokemon to function (Ninetales - Spinner - Chloro - Volc - Anti-Rain) and it would give us far less freedom to actually make a team. That doesn't appeal to me; we need to keep all of our options open as we move forwards as Zoroark is a difficult Pokemon to build a team for.

So again, nonweather edit: not nonweather, rather nonweather OR any weather other than sun + hyper offense.

And I'm not really going to weigh on Protect vs. Substitute yet as that is going to come down to the type of team we make. If, as I suggested, we are going to make a team that only really needs one opportunity for Zoroark, then Substitute >>>> Protect for fully taking advantage of that opportunity.
(So I suppose I'm more for substitute assuming I get my way with the playstyle being hyper offense. Maybe Nasty Plot, but, as I said, I don't think the point is to sweep.)

Zoroark shouldn't be a hit-and-run Pokemon that swaps in and swaps out; it should be that Pokemon that completely pivots the game in the user's favor, or at least nets you that one advantage that ultimately wins the game.

 

[That Noob]

I think as said, Weatherless Offense is best. However, about the teammates; the one thing that Zoroark absolutely pounds is Psychic pokemon. My suggestion for a teammate is Conkeldurr; he lures in Skarm and Reuniclus. Both of these are taken out with Zoro (assuming Flamethrower is on the set) and can let Conkeldurr sweep. Also, I think NP Zoro is a bad idea; setting up with Zoroark won't work, period.

 

[Pocket]

I agree with most of your points, but there are a few things I want to clarify. First, my original point was that Protect lets Zoro abuse Illusion more than once (though I agree with the difficulty in switching in, that's definitely an issue), which I think is key for any Zoro based team. Most people play Zoro as a sort of one-off heavy hitter that either works well or fails miserably because your opponent is intuitive enough to tell when it is Zoroark (its normally pretty easy to tell). Protect, unlike Sub, lets it stay at full health, thus letting it abuse illusion more often. The main issue I have with Sub is that even though it acts as a safety net, it still lowers Zoro's health, which means that it ruins any future use of Illusion. That's why the mindgames created by using protect are much more easily abused than those created by any other Zoro set. Now, I'm not saying that Protect is the best answer because its not easy to play a team based around mindgames effectively. Maybe it is just better to consider Zoro a one-off 'mon, but I have to say that its much less fun and often less effective.

Hmm, thanks for the insightful point, Blatreutka. Sub carving 25% of Zoroark's health certainly would help the opponent differentiate Zoroark from its Illusion partner. However, I don't see Protect prolonging Zoroark's Illusion, either. The moment Zoroark uses Protect, red flags would go up unless Zoroark's Illusion partner also utilizes Protect. Most Protect users are defensive in nature, so it'll be difficult to deceive the opponent with Protect on an offensive team. I guess one can pair it up with Sharpedo / Yanmega? Even then the lack in Speed boost would ruin the deception. We can pair it up with an offensive Heatran or Politoed and people may be fooled into thinking that Zoroark is a defensive Heatran / Politoed... until they don't see the Leftovers recovery. In that sense, other alternative seems more favorable than Protect atm.

I also agree with those who opposes running Zoroark on a Sun team, since it's an inflexible playstyle (although Stone Cold managed to be creative with his team). Politoed, however, can be slapped into most teams without much repercussion, and it can help remove the sand condition that wears Zoroark's health and restricts Zoroark's capabilities to deceive as a Sand-immune mon.

 

[alexwolf]

What about using Sub and Lefties or Protect + Lefties? With Fire Blast as the third move though, so that Zoroark can ohko things such as Skarmory that it can't with Flamethrower and without LO.

This way we have many possible teammates such as DisableGar, offensive Protect Heatran, offensive Politoed with Protect, Sharpedo with Protect(with NP instead of Fire Blast on Zoroark and with Politoed as a partner obviously), Ferrothorn and Tentacruel with Protect (which can easily fit in bulky offensive teams), Jirachi with Protect, and any offensive mon with sub and Lefties, such as Dragonite, Espeon, Gyarados, SubCM Jirachi and Landorus. Of 'course most of these pokes take less or more damage from SR than Zoroark, and this is why, imo, rapid spin support will be vital for the team.

 

[Woodchuck]

I also agree with those who opposes running Zoroark on a Sun team, since it's an inflexible playstyle (although Stone Cold managed to be creative with his team). Politoed, however, can be slapped into most teams without much repercussion, and it can help remove the sand condition that wears Zoroark's health and restricts Zoroark's capabilities to deceive as a Sand-immune mon.

I agree that we definitely need weather control, and it looks like Politoed is the best choice Illusion-wise. However, rain also has the unfortunate side effect of weakening Flamethrower - it now only 2HKOes Ferro (same as Focus Blast):
Flamethrower: 55.68 - 65.9%

It still OHKOes CBScizor after SR:
Flamethrower: 89.79 - 106.12%

But misses the KO against Bulky SD:
Flamethrower: 70.93 - 83.72%

You miss the KO on Skarm.
Flamethrower: 50.89 - 60.47%

Lolfails against Jirachi as well.
Dark Pulse: 29.2 - 34.15%

So if we're running Zoroark on Rain we may want to drop Flamethrower for Nasty Plot or Sucker Punch.

EDIT @ alexwolf: Zoroark NEEDS Life Orb if it's going to fit in on offensive teams and take full advantage of that surprise hit. Without Life Orb, it can't even KO Scizor in rain.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

I think it would be best if Zoroark was masquerading as a man with a reason so his charade would be the event of the season. Crobat would make an ideal partner for Zoroark, as Zoroark is soaring ever higher, though if he flew too high that could be a problem.

The most important thing about Zoroark is that even though his eyes could see he still was a blind man and that even though his mind could think he still was a mad man. As an example, he can hear voices when he's dreaming and can hear them say...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB17uWuBrL0
-------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, serious post time.

I think the best set for Zoroark right now is the Nasty Plot set, but it's important to focus on immunities, not resistances when deciding on teammates. Since Nasty Plot Zoroark is more of an early-to-mid game sweeper (when it can best abuse Illusion, it's only real redeeming quality), it's important to have a backup sweeper, preferably another Nasty Plot user or Special Attacker as a partner. Eliminating Scizor will be important as well, making Magnezone a good teammate in my opinion. Of course, all of these Pokemon that I have mentioned are offensive Pokemon, making my choice for a team style to be heavy offense.

 

[SlimMan]

What about using Sub and Lefties or Protect + Lefties? With Fire Blast as the third move though, so that Zoroark can ohko things such as Skarmory that it can't with Flamethrower and without LO.

I don't have more than like two minutes, but I want to point out that Zoroark does not get Fire Blast. Flamethrower is the best Zoroark has for Fire-type moves.

Also, I agree with Woodchuck about the necessity of Life Orb. Will flesh out my thinking later.

 

[canno]

Just a minor nitt-pick, but this is on the OP of this thread.

OU CCAT - 2nd Edition​

OU CCAT Thus Far:

Zoroark @ Life Orb
Trait: Illusion
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid (+Spe, -SAtk)
- Dark Pulse
- Focus Blast
- Flamethrower
- Protect

Timid doesn't give -SAtk.

Anyways, with Zoroark, how about we use U-Turn? It does the scouting we plan on achieving with Protect while also keeping offensive momentum. Zoroark is in a very nice base 105 speed, which is nice because it outspeeds base 100 pokemon. And, while it might give away the illusion, by that time you're already out of there and can switch into the appropriate check/counter. The only problem I see with this is that entry hazards and life orb would wear Zoroark down as he keeps U-Turning, but Sub wears Zoroark down pretty fast as well (especially with LO). As for the nature, it's not like Zoroark was living a hit anyways, so a -Def or -SDef nature would be ideal. Nasty Plot would be a nice second choice for me, as Zoroark could cause switches with it's illusion.

As for the team, either Hyper/Heavy Offense (the one that doesn't use Dual Screens) or Rain/Weather-less Offense.

 

[Razza]

zoroaks partners dont matter in terms of the moveset your bluffing, as soon as it uses a move its obvious wether its zoroark or not, you should probably focus more on picking parteners that take similar amounts of damage from stealth rock and those who dont have abilities such a mold breaker or pressure which usually come with a message thus ruining the illusion