OU CCAT: Zoroark [See Post #663]

just wondering but on a team like that why would you bother running Zoroark lol. I don't know if its an actualy seious team you are running with it, or a random example team you threw together, but I feel that the team we build has to showcase it best, and (just looking at it with no idea how you are playing the team) I just don't see that you ream uses it very well. All im getting from it is "protect is good etc" but WHY are you running Protect on Zoroark, what is it adding to the team. You are not luring in anything to help Gyarados sweep, you are not attempting to clean, you are just a frail as fuck pokemon that has Protect. Lets face it, MYSTIC Gar prolly cos a better job at what you are trying to do with Zoroark (gets protect, can spinblock, can scout etc etc) since you are not actually USING Illusion. I firmly believe that for this CCAT we should play towards Zoroarks strengths, Protect Zoroark, coupled with the ideas that Katakiri suggests, I feel, do not promote this. I would be happy to be proved wrong, but it makes it pretty darn clear what Zoroark is when you use Protect (and then, disguised as a Ferrothorn, proceed to switch OUT of a Rotom W, which again sends up flares over what you are running.

Furthermore, but with (I believe) the exception of Gengar, there are very few offensive pokemon that can run Protect. This triggers defensive teammates which can actually take hits which Zoroark cannot do, ergo, on a defensive team its usefulness is limited. I would really, really like to avoid Protect being the main move (id even take Sub or Sucker punch before it) since it really just ruins the who purpose of Zoroark, which is, lets face it, abusing Illusion as well as it can.
 
Weatherless Offense:

Mortagua (Spike-Stacking Volt-Turn Heavy Offense)
ginganinja (good stuff offense)
YoUserName (Dual Screen Heavy Offense)

Sun Offense:

French Orgy with Belzebuth by Grimm70


First I wanna express how disappointed I am about our choice for the CCAT. Zoroark is simply underwhelming IMO, but I'll try to play along and see how effective we can make it.

As for my team choices, Volt-Turn on every pokemon is too rare to warrant an example here, and a good sun offense example needs to have Venusaur and Dugtrio.
 
Mortagua (Spike-Stacking Volt-Turn Heavy Offense)
YoUserName (Dual Screen Heavy Offense)
ToF's (100% Volt-Turn Chain)
French Orgy with Belzebuth by Grimm70
 
Mortagua (Spike-Stacking Volt-Turn Heavy Offense)
ginganinja (good stuff offense)
YoUserName (Dual Screen Heavy Offense)

French Orgy with Belzebuth by Grimm70
 
There is not really much to explain in this stage, in terms of why I voted for what I did, so I'm not going to pretend that there is.

Mortagua
ginganinja
ToF

Cidade do Sol


I really wanna stick my face in the "Protect: good move or bad move" argument, but I'm going to wait for the next stage to begin before I do.
 
Mortagua
ginganinja
YoUserName

French Orgy with Belzebuth

Same reasons as Angel, we don't need an example of pure volt-turn because no one uses that except as a gimmick.

Also @Ginganinja, having run stall a lot I can actually see Zoroarks usefullness on that team. A lot of the time Stall has trouble with one or two Pokemon on a team, and even with a wallbreaker/revenge killer securing a kill on those Pokemon is really difficult since usually the Pokemon can just switch out safely and come back to haunt you later. Zoroark is really rather perfect when it comes to the role of eliminating said difficult Pokemon, as the opponent is a lot more likely to stay in and let their Pokemon die than to switch out and save it.

So yes, THAT is how it works. Zoroark is taking out what the rest of your team can't. Actually, it's a far better use of it than I've ever come up with, and seems brilliant in hindsight to me. I'll certainly be keeping it in mind next stallish team I make.
 
For what Jimera said, why not just use Wobbuffet? Obviously Zoro has a couple of advantages but if it's main goal is to remove certain threats for the team, Wobbuffet is just much more reliable especially if it can receive Wish from Katakiri's Chansey.
 
Going to respond to Jimera0 here

Firstly, Zoroark, what is its purpose?

Simply put, what Zoroark has over any sweeper in the game, as its ability, Illusion, which allows it to masquerade as basically any pokemon in your party. Therefore, in order to use Zoroark effectivlly, its illusion ability must be abused in the team, I don't care how but it just has to be abused, otherwise there are far better sweepers / cleaners etc etc that you could use.

O.k, thats out of the way

Zororark on a defensive team will often result in Zoroark under-performing. Semi Stall teams might be different, I don't know, however I do know that in a pretty defensive team that Katakiri has posted, Zoroark is not being used as well as it could be. The reason for this is simple, defensive teams are built around taking hits, healing off the damage and stalling out the opposing team. Zoroark cannot do this as it has the defences of paper. This is, however, not the route of the problem. In order for Zoroark to be used effectively, it has to masquerade as a pokemon, if it has protect, this (in order to avoid making it blindingly obvious what you are pretending to be) forces you to often pretend to be a pokemon that commonly carries Protect. Zoroark can pretend to be Nidoqueen all it likes, but the moment I see it use Protect (which is a very unusual move to see on a Nidoqueen) Im going to be suspicious. Not only that, but Protect on Zoroark serves no purpose if you are pretending to be Nidoqueen, you just admitted that you are a Zoroark, rendering illusion pointless. If you don't use protect, you can abuse your Illusion for longer, but in that case, why are you using protect over another move like Sub, NP, SD, or Sucker Punch.

If, on Katakiri's Team, you are matched up with a Volt Turn Team, and you decide to lead with Zoroark matched up as a Ferrothorn. You are met with a Rotom W, Rotom W Volt Switchs as your protect, and then you go to Nidoqueen. This, in essence, tells me two things. Firstly, you had a free turn on Ferrothorn to set up Stealth Rock (which would hamper my Volt Turning plan), but you didn't, instead going to the (slightly riskier move) of bringing in Nidoqueen, which you then have to switch back out for fear of Hydro Pump. Logically, staying in with Ferrothorn would have been a better move unless you were a Zoroark in which case it explains and obvious switch.

tl:dr, if I see a "Ferrothorn" switch out of a Rotom W that is (apparently) locked into Volt Switch, against a Volt Turn Team, why would I switch out of something I wall, unless I was a Zoroark.

This problem is only increased if the Volt Turn Team leads with Landorus (most do and heck, after seeing a ground type ready to block Volt Switch id prolly lead with Landorus to be safe), and you lead with your Zoroark disguised as Ferrothorn. I U-Turn, you Protect and suddenly, you are in a shit position. In a normal situation, against this (probably) Scarf Landorus locked into U-Turn against a Ferrothorn there is ZERO Reason to switch out. You have a free turn to do whatever, AND you force the landorus to take IB damage upon U-Turning. However, on Katakiri's Team, you have a Zoroark, which HAS to switch out now, and therefore makes it obvious that your Zoroark is pretending to be a Ferrothorn, making it harder for Zoroark to get that surprise kill.

The problem does not stop there. Against any half decent opponent, running a defensive team draws out the length of the game, the longer the game goes on for, the harder it is for illusion to be maintained, and the less likely it is that Zoroark can nail that kill with Illusion. Furthermore, as you are pretending to be a Ferrothorn, you are limited in that your actual Ferrothorn, cannot switch in and take a Volt Switch, without revealing that what is Zoroark and what is the pokemon it pretends to be. In this way, by using a fully defensive team, you are actually making it easier for your opponent to quickly realise what Zoroark is pretending to be, even what Zoroark actually is (ie the fake Ferrothorn or the real Ferrothorn). At this point, Zoroark becomes an average sweeper, thats fast, hits decently hard, but lost the main perk of its ability, the main reason for USING it. At this point, you had to ask yourself, why am I then using Zoroark when I could be using something like MYSTIC Gar which can Scout as well as Zoroark, hit as hard as Zoroark, switch in easier than Zoroark, be faster than Zoroark, and can spinblock where Zoroark cannot and suddenly Zoroark becomes an inferior option.

So I guess I am saying, a defensive team has a much harder time at keeping Illusion active, in which case you are better off using something else that can take out what needs to be taken since, as I pointed out, keeping Illusion active is one of the only ways Zoroark can get that kill, and defensive teams fail to do this well enough.

With the bulk of the argument out of the way lets move on

Why not Protect?

Basically because it encourages defensive team mates to further the illusion (so as to prevent making it obvious what you are, so as to get that extra kill with Illusion) which in turn encourages a more defensive team, which in turn makes it harder to keep Illusion active.

Offensive Teams and Zoroark

Zoroark works much better on an offensive team. Offensive teams do sometimes include pokemon that can take hits, but primarily, they are offensive, and aim to finish a game as quickly as possible (certainly more quickly than a defensive team). it is, however, easier to keep Illusion active since you disguise yourself as a sweeper, and can hold back that sweeper with little disadvantage since, sweepers often hang back towards the end of the game so they can sweep later in the game when counters and suchlike have been removed. The faster pace also suits Zoroark as it gives your opponent less time to figure out what Zoroark is pretending to be if you sac occasionally to get things in for free (which is a common practise on an offensive team).

Why a Boosting move.

Example: I have a team with Zoroark, a Scarf Rotom W, and a Heatran. I disguise myself as Heatran, (not saying this is wise, its a rough example). My opponent has a Gyarados, and I managed to bring in Rotom W safely on Gyarados. I can Volt Switch on Gyarados, threatening a KO so my opponent brings in Ferrothorn, and I bring in Zoroark, disguised as Heatran, which can threaten to KO Ferrothorn with Fire Blast. My opponent, needs Ferrothorn alive, if it faints to a probable Heatran, Rotom W can cause massive damage to his team, he also needs it alive so he can set up Stealth Rock to guard against the powerful Volcarona I have on my team. There is a possibility Zoroark is Heatran, however, if he mispredicts and it is, actually a Heatran, he loses the game, if its a Zoroark, I could flamethrower anyway and win the game, and so, my opponent switchs out to a Gyarados, ready to wall a Fire Blast, set up a Substitute, Dragon dance a few times and sweep. Instead, he is faced with a +2 Zoroark, which can now crush him with a Dark Pulse (letting Heatran become a dominant force) or he can let something else take a hit which is fine, but w/e I still do massive damage or pull off a kill and can switch out.(even assuming I miss a KO a +2 Zoroark is hitting mighty hard) so job well done. If I get the KO then good shit, I got the free kill with Illusion and have a 90% Zoroark ready to kill shit.

Even if Zoroark did NOT find the time to Nasty Plot, its no big deal, unlike Protect, I am not forced to use it (when if you don't use protect you basically make it less useful) and I am not missing out on anything, as I still hit damn hard even without a nasty Plot boost. Simply put, if I get an opportunity to Nasty Plot then great, if I am pretending to be a pokemon that can Nasty Plot (or Swords Dance) then my Illusion is intact and so it works much better, even if I don't get to fake Illusion (by pairing with with something that doesn't get NP like Heatran) who cares, Im a +2 Zoroark with a free attack. If I don't pull off the Nasty Plot, then its no big deal, since its a free moveslot anyway.

Sorry if this is a bit of a wall of text, I did shorten it quite a bit as I think I went into too much detail. Anyway, this is, basically, why I feel that Zoroark should be on an offensive team, which Protect is less suited for over a more offensive move.
 
Wait, you bought that my team was a Stall team? Well you didn't see through that illusion.

It's Bulky Offense with Hazard-Stacking. There are 5 very nasty surprises on this team, none of which are obvious in the slightest, with the first and the only I will give away being that it's not a stall team at all. Nidoqueen doesn't even have Toxic Spikes because there's better uses for that move-slot. T-Spikes are great for stall, but this isn't stall. Chansey just happens to be a fantastic Pokemon as both a wall, wall breaker, and, most importantly to me, a pivot. I think one of the people I played today got it the worst, turn 1 of a match as he said "Zoroark does nothing for this team.", as I OHKOed his Tyranitar with Focus Blast and I replied with a smug "Does she really?", as I leave him without Stealth Rock.



Swords Dance isn't even a legitimate option because Zoroark has a Physical move-pool about as "vibrant" as Klinklang's.

Nasty Plot Zoroark is nothing but trouble. Scarf U-turn, Volt Switches, Bullet Punch, Mach Punch, Terrakion, Gengar, Dragonite, Scarfmence, Latios, Starmie, Special walls like Tentacruel, the list goes on. If you think you can get a sweep longer than 1 Pokemon long against anything not stall in this metagame, then I say good luck to you and more power to ya.



But what makes me curious, Ginga, is that you say Zoroark's only asset compared to other special attackers is Illusion. I don't see any other Pokemon over Base 100 speed with Special Dark-STAB, Focus Blast, & Flamethrower. And that's without getting into U-turn or STAB Sucker Punch.

I've beaten this point to death in the past, but I'll revive it and say; Zoroark is a fine Pokemon with or without Illusion. No Pursuit weakness like Gengar, immunity to Psychic attacks, perfectly accurate STAB with a Flinch chance at that, perfect coverage in 2 moves which allows a wild card for the 3rd move, fast and powerful enough that nothing bar Special Walls or Fighting-types should every risk trying to set-up on her and even then there's the risk of Extrasensory, which is made entirely viable by her already perfect coverage.



Protect Zoroark does the same thing as Nasty Plot, gets a KO, then switches out or gets KOed. (Rarely is it the latter) The difference is that Protect Zoroark can scout and remain perfectly safe. You look at my team and see all these Bulky Pokemon, but aside from Chansey, the hardest Pokemon on my team to take down, guaranteed, is Zoroark because she's threatening because of her speed & power and she deters setup because of it, but she has Protect to scout which lets her take full advantage of that trait. But with the right support, well...

You can dislike Protect Zoroark all you please, but don't try to tell me that it's not effective.

Did you believe me when I said it was a Bulky Offense team? Well if you thought my team was a Stall team, that's two strikes cause even that's only half the truth and the other half isn't the Hazard part. Care to take one more swing? Because this is something you should have been able to tell just from team preview, and judging by your opinion of my team, it's flown right over your head.

This isn't just a bulky offense team. Think about what you would switch into a Zoroark Dark Pulse alone, then look at the team. Fighting-types? Gyarados & Nidoqueen. Try again. Scizor? Gyarados, Rotom-W, & Flamethower. Try again. Tentacruel? Chansey, Rotom-W, & Gyarados laugh at it and Nidoqueen soaks up T-Spikes. Get the picture?

This isn't a Stall team and it's only part Bulky Offense. This is a Zoroark Team. Zoroark is damn-near immortal because of it's teammates. And at the same time, Protect prevents it's teammates from taking unwanted attacks, status, or Trick. And at the same time as all that, they work alone just fine should something happen to Zoroark. The entire goal of my team is to put and keep my opponent, to quote Ginganinja, "in a shit position."

I use Zoroark to lure in those threats I have a plethora of ways to deal with because this is a Zoroark team. In a sense, I WANT my opponent to know I'm a Zoroark after I get my obligatory surprise KO with her because I know the jig is up after Ferrothorn uses Flamethrower at 105 Base Speed so I can adjust accordingly and start drawing in those Zoroark "Counters" I'm so prepared for, that don't have a snowball's chance in hell of ever touching her anyway because of Protect. In short, Zoroark lures in everything I want with Illusion netting surprise KOes, and after it's up, I change my goals to lure in Pokemon bloodthirsty for Zoroark herself instead of what she was disguise as

Roar on my Bulky Intimidate DD Gyarados, Dragon Tail on my Nidoqueen. Momentum? You're sure as hell not going to get any as long as those two are still around. Meanwhile, Zoroark's Attacks add up, VoltSwitch adds up, Chansey's Seismic Toss & Toxic add up, Hazards Add-up; I'm constantly forcing switches in a constant tug-of-war until you fall into the mud so I can stomp on you. THAT is what my team is about. And that is the one thing that should have been apparent in Team Preview if you just looked past "Zoroark on a Stall team? How shit." and instead saw "Zoroark surrounded by tanks... Oh shit." Especially if you already knew my Zoroark set. But I'm still working on this team, looking for something more potent than Ferrothorn currently. I know it's nowhere near perfect, but it's a working concept and in that sense, I'm happy with it.
 
I'm personally still putting my support behind Substitute simply because its more likely to be useful in any one match. I get what ginga said about NP putting the most pressure on the opponent, but like Kata's saying the reality is almost nothing except slow, defensive teams won't be able to easily revenge a revealed Zoroark. Substitute lets you abuse that great coverage effectively, can't be easily revenge killed, and can still keep up the masquerade easily. Compared to Protect it does similar things but doesn't give away the illusion away whenever it's used. Substitute's other main benefit over Protect is that the opponent can't afford to screw around scouting what you actually are.

On the other hand I'm going with ginga on the offense vs very bulky offense debate mainly because I want to see Illusion abused to the fullest. Katakiri has a fairly valid point about Zoroark not needing Illusion to be active to be effective, but to me the purpose of the project is to think about how we can get the maximum use out of Zoro's strengths.
 
I was speaking generally, I knew that with DD Gyara, Rotom W and Zoroark it was hardly a stall team (I didn't even call your team stall ONCE iirc). If you were responding to an earlier post (idr if I called it stall earlier it was 1 AM and I was tired then I apologise, it was not my intention (especially when I didn't refer to it as stall in my proper post) in the most recent post which is IMO the better post since I did the previous one at 1 AM iirc so I might have typed something poorly)) and your own post gave the impression that it was stall. For example I saw this

Two things should instantly come to mind when you see this: Stall & Zoroark.
Zoroark of course sticks out like a sore thumb on a team with Nidoqueen, Chansey, and, to a lesser extent, Ferrothorn which otherwise screams stall; and Nidoqueen's presence further hammers in the idea of stall as she's know for Toxic Spikes.

And assumed that (while I knew that Rotom W and Zoroark were not typical stall pokemon) that was the similar base structure for your team. Also I was responding (I said it at the start of the post) to someone else who also gave the impression that it was a stall team. Please don't rage at me for suggesting something that I did not actually say (since no matter how you look at it, its defensive / Semi stall aka I classed it as a defensive team you didn't need to take offence -_-)

I however my point still stands. (If you answered the main point on Protect and defensive teams then requote it cos I missed it sorry :( ). I also don't believe I said Protect Zoroark is ineffective just that I regarded other moves as more viable options.

Swords Dance isn't even a legitimate option because Zoroark has a Physical move-pool about as "vibrant" as Klinklang's.

Zoroark has a poor physical movepool, I am not denying that, but saying its an illegitimate options is a little harsh consdering that it gets perfect coverage in 2 attacks, and can run Flamethrower to roast Skarmory. The draw is Sucker Punch which we don't need SD for so im happy with Sucker Punch on a 4 attack moveset since you still get those nice surprise KOs on Latios which is very nice.

I still don't get how you are getting those surprise KO's, especially against those simple scenarios I outlined but if a few retards are failing to find Zoroark then thats nothing but good news for us I guess.

THAT is what my team is about. And that is the one thing that should have been apparent in Team Preview

Please don't insult my intelligence. I was well aware of what your team did which was abuse hazards, phase a little with Gyarados, switch around, tank hits, gradually wear the opponent down, perhapes clean with Scarf Rotom W / Sweep with Gyarados / Clean with Zoroark etc etc.

Nasty Plot Zoroark is nothing but trouble. Scarf U-turn, Volt Switches, Bullet Punch, Mach Punch, Terrakion, Gengar, Dragonite, Scarfmence, Latios, Starmie, Special walls like Tentacruel, the list goes on. If you think you can get a sweep longer than 1 Pokemon long against anything not stall in this metagame, then once again, I say good luck to you and more power to ya.

c\Congrats, you pretty much listed all the counters to pretty much ANY Zoroark set -_-. I don't count "using Protect to scout a U-Turn" as a "win" since you are forced out anyway by something faster, as are ALL sets bar the ones without Substitute or Sucker Punch. Seriously man, this doesn't make NP Bad, if it does, then I could easily turn around and call your set bad. I also take exception to the view that NP Zoroark gets 'walled" so easily. Dragonite needs Extremespead to beat Zoroark, or Stealth Rock (and even then if Zoroark Dark Pulses the switch then you lose iirc), Special Walls such as Blissey get straight up 2KOed (Blissey takes 69.18 - 81.51% from Focus Blast which is an astonishing amount, especially when you can go for a Dark Pulse flinch), Tentacruel takes a massive 75.82 - 89.28% add in SR, a flinch, or a little bit of residual damage and that Tentacruel is going down. You are also missing the point. I said an example above but I think you missed it or ignored it, its a big post so I don't blame you either way. Anyway, say I have a Nasty Plot Mew and a Nasty plot Zoroark. Its not the best example since both a bug weak but I actually used this in a team (along with Expert Belt Latios, yes, I was bug weak but w.e I could play around it) and it worked very well. Anyway, the point is, you disguise yourself as something that would typically not counter you, it might be disguising myself as Nasty Plot Mew to dissuade Mach Punch, it might be disguising myself as Balloon Heatran do avoid Scarf Mence shitting on me, the point is, you disguise yourself as something that gives traditional Zoroark counters pause, get a free switch in, and then go to town. So what if it doesn't sweep, I killed a pokemon, I got to switch out, whats the problem? If im up against a slower, perhaps more balanced team then yes, Zoroark becomes 100% more threatening (especially since, if you go run damage calculations, very little can "wall" NP Zoroark safely) as I can threaten a sweep with ease, while still giving defensive teams headaches as they don't know if I actually am Zoroark, or the actual sweeper.

That said, make no mistake, I am not fully pushing for Nasty Plot to get the main slash, I am really listing alternatives that I feel are better than Protect. Protect just has got to be used on a team with other pokemon with protect. I think that most of us can agree with this, this is because the moment that Infernape uses protect, you know its gotta be a Zoroark. If you pair it up with pokemon using Protect, that means pairing it up with defensive pokemon (some are walls lalala) like Gliscor or Ferrothorn which in turn, lead me to worry that the team ends up very defensive, and I would much rather a fully offensive team to better showcase Zoroark. Personally, I rank Substitute as one of the better options as you can scout, and kinda avoid being countered as easily. Sucker Punch is also good late game (which Zoroark will frequently find itself at least in my experience) and I already discussed how effective nasty Plot can be against certain team styles.

Lastly I apologise if I offended you at all. I don't know how I did but your post comes across as you being upset about something and I honestly did not intend to offend you in any way. I was not shitting on your team (if thats what you were concerned about) just genuinely attempting to discover the purpose of Zoroark on a far more defensive team that I had envisioned. Again, I apologise if I caused offence it was honestly not my intention!!!

EDIT Bubbly actually put it a lot better than I ever good, thanks for saying what I was trying to get across in this and the above posts fair easier than I was able too

EDIT 2

Also excuse the shitty quality of this post as im dead tired and its midnight x_x but im busy managing this and everything else going on so I prolly would have forgot to post if I didn't do so now!
 
I could see scouting a move with Protect can be useful, especially on a frail mon like Zoroark, but that's as far as the move's usefulness goes. I am pretty sure that your team would do equally well with Nasty Plot > Protect. Katakiri, you said yourself that Zoroark is a good mon without Illusion. However, you chose not to give Zoroark one of its main assets in Nasty Plot :o

Anyways, please vote and finalize our team checklist! The poll will close in 2.5 hrs.
 
I feel that a few posters have outlined why Protect is a generally inferior choice on Zoroark. It seems cute at first for scouting purposes, but Protect is such a situational move. On any Pokemon the use of Protect will reveal what set you are running, except for stuff like Ferrothorn which always runs Protect. I honestly don't see what Protect adds to Zoroark except for revealing what move it's going to have to switch out of. I would favor either Sub or Sucker Punch in the last slot. Substitute lets you throw up a Sub on the opponent that you (hopefully) force out with your Illusion, and then you can really tear holes with excellent 3-move coverage. Sucker Punch, on the other hand, is very surprising and lets you get those key KOs on stuff like Latios or Gengar. Although set-up moves are tempting, I honestly don't see Zoroark doing much with them. You get 1 KO for the whole match, but then the surprise is up, especially since Nasty Plot has such limited distribution. In my mind Sub does everything that a set-up move can do and more, since so many things carry Sub nowadays that hypothetically you could partner Zoroark with SubDisable Gengar (just a thought), and your enemy is in a really bad position if they see a Sub going up.
 
Good points, skidilidy. There is also an option of going Sub + NP :d

Thanks for the votes, bros and sisters - poll closed.
 
The Results are In:

Weatherless Offense

1) Mortagua's Wreck and Destroy
2) YoUserName's Blood Alliance
3) ginganinja's Nuclear Warfare

Sun Offense

1) Grimm70's French Orgy

Stage 3 - Revise Zoroark's Moveset and Choose Team Playstyle

The next couple of days would be devoted to 2 goals:

1) finding the preferred moveset for Zoroark that best functions in the current metagame
2) nominate and discuss the preferred playstyle for our team to be built around

The first objective is important, since teammates for Zoroark may most potentially be influenced by the particular set Zoroark is running. The purpose of the second aim is to provide a general direction of our team's construction. Our selected team archetype is more of a suggestion, and it should not restrict our team from viable options.


Okay, folks, begin Stage 3!
 
I think there's a great deal of merit to protect. With Rocks, spikes, potential sand, and Zoro's own life orb, the jig is going to be up pretty quickly. any opponent paying attention can keep track of health, and should a terrakion that previously had 60% hp, suddenly come in with 80% they are already going to know it's Zoro. This is where I feel protect really shines, it turns it into a sort of slower MYSTICgar, and being able to scout whether Scizor is going for BP or U-turn is huge. That said I don't necesarily feel protect is superior to say NP or Sub, but I feel it's still one of our best options for a 4th move. But yeah based on teammates this could and probably should be changed if another option becomes more appealing.

Agreeing with this 100%. You can't count on catching the opponent napping, especially in this community. There are so many things that people can look for to distinguish zoroark from whatever it's masquerading as, and they'll be looking for every one of them as soon as that big red mane pops up in Team Preview. Thus, Protect allows Zoroark to not only scout the foe's reaction to the Pokemon it's Illusioned as, but also what they decide to do when they discover its true identity. Two for one. :naughty:

As for teammates for Zoroark, the number one counter to the illusion fox is bulky fighting-types, so partners that can dismantle those are the first thing that come to my mind. In particular, fast and offensive psychic-types such as Latios, which brings MORE speed, MORE special attack, a handy ability in Levitate (look out for mold breaker Hax!) and the godly STAB Draco Meteor to the table, is the first thing I'm considering.

(If you're battling on PO, however, they do NOT have team preview, so the focus on that server shifts to keeping up appearances for as long as possible.)

Edit: Mother of god, Katakiri/ginga. THAT sort of thought process is what it takes to be successful around here? well, no wonder. X_X
 
I'd like to give my support to Substitute or Sucker Punch over Protect. Obviously we would change Zoroark's nature accordingly. I think the people above have given good enough reasons for me. Generally, the fourth move is not going to be used much, so I don't think it's that important, but Protect is not really a move I want to be carrying on other members of the team just to preserve the illusion bluff. Substitute is probably the most potent option, but I know some people don't like running Sub and Life Orb on one Pokemon, so Sucker Punch is a great choice instead. Priority is always helpful, even when the illusion game is up.

Just another note for everyone: this team is going to sit right out in the open. Any illusion bluffing has to be absolutely perfect, such that someone reading the RMT will not be able to tell which Pokemon is which. If you run Protect on Zoroark and want to use it with Illusion preserved, then you have to have Protect on the teammate too. For me, Substitute is just a far more useful move for every other pokemon. Pokemon that can't make effective use of the move are really rather rare. Protect is a very niche move that would hold other members of the team back.

The playstyle I would most like to see is Weatherless Offense. I trust the reasoning behind this is fairly obvious. Zoroark does not benefit from any kind of weather at all really; sand risks giving the game away and adds unwelcome residual damage to a set that already has Life Orb (and perhaps Sub). Rain weakens Zoroark's crucial fire attack. Sun is marginally helpful to Zoroark performance, but I think there are many better choices for a sun team, ones that actually take advantage of the sun.

I think offense is best because it punishes the opponent the most for one false move. Most notably, if the opponent expects a Zoroark, they could easily be destroyed by another pokemon. Zoroark is best when the game is kept short, hazards are left off the field, and things don't switch around and take hits too much.

edit @ Unbreakable: PO does have team preview. In fact, their metagame is almost entirely the same as ours, just with different trends.
 
Going to agree with jc104 here. While I really like Nasty Plot due to the devastation it brings opposing balanced / slow teams, I doubt its going to get enough support. I would much rather go for Sucker Punch, especially as it can take out quite a few pokemon when they have been weakened, and then Substitute even tho LO + Sub I dislike on something as frail as Zoroark :(

Also supporting Weatherless Offence for the same reasons as jc104.
 
I wish there was something I could add to the discussion at this point, but pretty much everything I would have said has been already, and probably with a lot more detail and eloquence than I could have.

With that being said, I also support Sucker Punch in favor of Protect, as well as a Weatherless Offense team.
 
edit @ Unbreakable: PO does have team preview. In fact, their metagame is almost entirely the same as ours, just with different trends.

I'd blame that last part on how much overlap exists between our communities, but okay.

Obviously, with Zoroark being solid UU due to his frailty and the difficulty involved in bringing his best qualities to bear, there needs to be a large amount of team support. Seeing as I'm not sure if our specimen is running a boosting move or not, but I do know he's got LO, he's going to need all the damage he can get to ensure that one surprise kill. (This isn't about a Zoroark sweep. This is about him taking out the one Pokemon that gives the rest of his team the most trouble.)

My vote for playstyle goes to Hyper Offense. If Zoroark's player can't afford a mistake when trying to use him, that playstyle has the best chance of putting the opponent in a similar bind, after which it's a question of who can withstand the pressure more effectively.
 
Substitute is the way to go in the forth slot as it works well on so many pokemon which are also viable on an offensive team, helping us with the Illusion mind games. Yeah, Substitute + weatherless offense all the way.
 
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