Resource OU Checks Compendium (Read Post #72)

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Albacore

sludge bomb is better than sludge wave
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I don't know if this is my place to post etc etc. But as far as I'm aware Quag is a pretty good check to M-Alt and I don't see it on there? Is that my mistake, or was it forgotten? I'm sure it should at least be mentioned in the SSI I think...
252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 169-201 (42.8 - 51%)
I mean, Clef is SSI for Alt, and Unaware Max Max Bold takes 47-56%
252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%)
Probably becuase it loses completely to special/mixed sets a well as Phys Def Sub DD sets (beats Heal Bell DD though), but yeah I agree that it should probably be SSI since it walls what is by far the most popular set atm (I'm guessing the reason it was overlooked was becuase the compendium was made at a time where DD wasn't the dominant set).
 

Adaam

Al Capone Yoshi
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Hey, great thread! After reading through these lists, I have some changes that I think could be made:

  • Cobalion added as a SSI to both Scizor and Mega Scizor. Like Heatran, it counters any non Superpower variants.
  • Starmie can perhaps move to SSI vs MegaGross since it resists it's STABs, hammer arm, and ice punch and reflect type can best GK Metagross
  • Remove Gengar from NSI on Serp since unless you're scarf (lol) Serp is outspeeding you and is at least +2 (cause who brings in Serp on a healthy Gengar?). LO Serp at +2 has a 100% chance of OHKOing after rocks
  • Add MegaZam to SSI or even GSI to Heatran since it traces flash fire and hard walls the mono attacking sets, but fears toxic.
  • Also add MegaZam to NSI to swift swimmers since tracing swift swim then revenge killing them is fun ^^
  • Mega Swampert is a GSI to Mega Aero
 
Firstly, i don't think Sylveon can be noticed as a GSI against Latios, because in most cases, Sylveon will be 2HKOed by Psyshock, consequently, SSI or NSI could be a better choice.


252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 242-286 (61.4 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Secondly, why Rotom-Wash isn't an NSI to Lopunny Mega ?

Rotom can take an High Jump Kick, and make Lop useless thanks to Will-o-Wisp !

252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 156-184 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk burned Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 78-92 (25.7 - 30.3%) -- 1.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
 

AM

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Firstly, i don't think Sylveon can be noticed as a GSI against Latios, because in most cases, Sylveon will be 2HKOed by Psyshock, consequently, SSI or NSI could be a better choice.


252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 242-286 (61.4 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Secondly, why Rotom-Wash isn't an NSI to Lopunny Mega ?

Rotom can take an High Jump Kick, and make Lop useless thanks to Will-o-Wisp !

252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 156-184 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk burned Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 78-92 (25.7 - 30.3%) -- 1.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Taking 50-60 percent from a HJK is not being a switch in -.-

Sylveon runs some defense investment if you're talking about cleric set so calc is wrong granted.
 
Taking 50-60 percent from a HJK is not being a switch in -.-

Sylveon runs some defense investment if you're talking about cleric set so calc is wrong granted.

I said Rotom could be a NSI, a Revenge Killer ^^'


252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Sylveon: 165-196 (41.8 - 49.7%) -- 26.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Imo this is even too much to be a GSI.
 

boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
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I said Rotom could be a NSI, a Revenge Killer ^^'


252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Sylveon: 165-196 (41.8 - 49.7%) -- 26.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Imo this is even too much to be a GSI.
26% chance is still pretty low in Latios's favor, and not to mention the cleric set runs protect so it can get the extra leftovers this guaranteeing it to live 2. Also, it wouldn't be a bad idea to run max defense since the 36 spdef was for Landorus's Earth Power.
 

Clone

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Taking 50-60 percent from a HJK is not being a switch in -.-

Sylveon runs some defense investment if you're talking about cleric set so calc is wrong granted.
FYI he said rotom as an NSI. Doesn't have to switch in.

---

I noticed while looking through the list that Excadrill is an NSI to mega aero, but it's still able to come in on both of its STABs and KO it with iron head when sand is up. SSI seems more fitting

Mega scizor should be a GSI to Zam (both) IMO. HP fire really isn't that common.

Mega metagross can switch into CB play rough from Azu. SSI seems fitting because of it. Also, what's holding tentacruel back from being a GSI? Iirc u said it doesn't have to do so repeatedly, and tenta switches in like 2-3 times depending on rolls if it's physdef.

I still say terrakion is an SSI to bisharp because it only fears iron head.

Why is mega Sab only an SSI to celebi? same question for mega scizor as well.

Quagsire is 2HKOed by Outrage from Zard X. Not a GSI imo, tho it could stay if u feel it's rare enough.

Chesnaught has GSIs and SSIs limped together.

Hesitant to call mega metagross a GSI to clef when T wave and flamethrower are the two most common moves in the fourth slot as of late. AV regular gross is a GSI tho.

Why is mega scizor only a SSI to dragalge? HP Fire?

Garchomp is actually a SSI to DNite. It DTails out DD variants and those that haven't yet setup can lose to it, especially if chomp has endure. Talking about bulky chomp btw. Add Quag to GSIs too. Or at the very least, SSI

Quag should be a GSI to Excadrill. Mold breaker SD doesn't really exist.

All I got for A-F. Sorry :S
 
Heya Clone, some insight on your suggestion, based on moveset usage stats:
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2015-05/moveset/ou-1825.txt



I still say terrakion is an SSI to bisharp because it only fears iron head.
Unfortunately Iron Head is almost a 100% existent move on Bisharp and KO'es Terrakion. Upon closer inspection, all the SSI of "PokemonA" is never weak to "PokemonA"'s STAB, so Terrakion shouldn't fall into this category.

Quagsire is 2HKOed by Outrage from Zard X. Not a GSI imo, tho it could stay if u feel it's rare enough.
Roost 84.191% | | Flare Blitz 53.854% | | Dragon Claw 51.716% | | Dragon Dance 50.753% | | Solar Beam 36.000% | | Focus Blast 29.587% | | Earthquake 21.445% | | Fire Blast 19.711% | | Flamethrower 17.942% | | Will-O-Wisp 10.562% | | Air Slash 3.571% | | Fire Punch 3.520% | | Other 17.148%
Outrage isn't even listed. If Fire Punch which only has 3.5% usage and is listed, then I could inevitably assume that Outrage has usage below 3% and such is a way too rare of a coverage to hinder Quagsire's perfect ability to switch into Charizard X

Hesitant to call mega metagross a GSI to clef when T wave and flamethrower are the two most common moves in the fourth slot as of late. AV regular gross is a GSI tho.
Mega Metagoss still fits perfectly the definition of GSI, will still defeat Clefable 1vs1 w/Meteor Mash, even when paralysed (not factoring hax) and is bulky/tanky enough to even tank 2 Flamethrowers fitting in the 1 to 2 times switchins capability of a GSI.
0 SpA Clefable Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 114-136 (37.8 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Why is mega scizor only a SSI to dragalge? HP Fire?
Draco Meteor 92.251% | | Sludge Wave 84.929% | | Toxic Spikes 51.097% | | Focus Blast 50.076% | | Hidden Power Fire 43.768% | | Scald 21.159% | | Sludge Bomb 13.922% | | Hydro Pump 9.649% | | Dragon Pulse 8.892% | | Sleep Talk 6.238% | | Other 18.017%
HP Fire has 40% usage lol

Garchomp is actually a SSI to DNite. It DTails out DD variants and those that haven't yet setup can lose to it, especially if chomp has endure. Talking about bulky chomp btw. Add Quag to GSIs too. Or at the very least, SSI.
Its definately not a switchin to Garchomp. Dragonite surely does take a massive chuck from RockyHelmet + RoughSkin, but Garchomp will still lose the matchup on the switchin, or the very least its most likely a double down

252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 218-260 (51.9 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Dnite takes 14/48HP, leading to 28/48HP lost.)
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 492-582 (117.1 - 138.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I could actually simulate some scenarios where Garchomp can defeat Dragonite on the switchin, assuming it has endure, but I dont think Endure justifies Garchomp as a situational switchin to Dragonite, especially since Dragonite's STAB is supereffective against Garchomp

Agreed with the rest of the suggestion :]
 

Clone

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Why does it matter if iron head has 100% usage on bisharp lol. Bisharp spams knock off. Terrakion is able to switch into that knock off, gain an attack boost, and nuke the switch in as bisharp is forced out. It also gets a free turn against sucker punch and SD. I'd rather switch terrakion into bisharp than talonflame or alomomola. It's obviously not switching into iron head but that's why it would be a situational switch in and not a guaranteed one. Source: lots of personal experience.

Outrage doesn't appear on the usage stats because it accounts for both forms, and it's always been a low usage, but highly effective move. I'm also hesitant to accept any usage stats that list Air Slash as a common move, even if they are 1825 stats. Outrage is used on wallbreaking sets to specifically beat it's normal checks, which include Quagsire.

A paralyzed metagross is a near useless one. It does no good beating clefable if in the process it loses half of what makes it so good. Saying its a GSI to clefable implies that it wont be crippled beyond repair after switching in, and a paralyzed metagross is not favorable for the gross user. Flamethrower also does over half to metagross before it mega evolves.

There are plenty of scenarios in which Garchomp can beat DNite, but I don't care enough to list all of them or argue over a relatively moot point. It was simply something I found out when playing in a room tour earlier today. If mega diancie is good enough to be an SSI, I don't see why chomp isn't.

Example: 30% weavile vs CB DNite. Switch weavile out to Garchomp and now DNite has taken 30% while chomp has taken roughly the same. Now chomp gets a free turn to set up rocks or do something else.

Fair point on dragalge
 
Secondly, why Rotom-Wash isn't an NSI to Lopunny Mega ?
Not so sure about this because while Rotom-W can cripple Mega Lopunny and take off around half of its health with Hydro Pump, it still loses the matchup, so I struggle to call it a check. More like a decent emergency brake to a Mega Lopunny sweep, but there's no category for that. :(

Quagsire is 2HKOed by Outrage from Zard X. Not a GSI imo, tho it could stay if u feel it's rare enough.
Yeah, it's seen rarely enough that Quagsire is fine.

Chesnaught has GSIs and SSIs limped together.
This was intentional. The only offensive Chesnaught set is the Belly Drum set, which for the most part only runs its two STABs (Rock Slide is viable but rare), so there's little to no difference between its situational and guaranteed switch-ins. Correct me if I'm wrong, though.

Hesitant to call mega metagross a GSI to clef when T wave and flamethrower are the two most common moves in the fourth slot as of late. AV regular gross is a GSI tho.
Unboosted Flamethrower can't 2HKO and even paralyzed Mega Metagross still wins, but the fact that it gets the rug jerked out from under it so badly by Thunder Wave makes it SSI worthy I guess. In fact, I'm gonna do that for a handful of other Clefable GSIs while I'm at it.

Garchomp is actually a SSI to DNite. It DTails out DD variants and those that haven't yet setup can lose to it, especially if chomp has endure. Talking about bulky chomp btw. Add Quag to GSIs too. Or at the very least, SSI
Quagsire is definitely SSI since Choice Band bonks it over the head, but it does wall Dragon Dance. Garchomp...not sure about that one. Getting demolished by Dragonite's main STAB move isn't too comforting, enough so that I'd rather leave that as an NSI.

Why does it matter if iron head has 100% usage on bisharp lol. Bisharp spams knock off. Terrakion is able to switch into that knock off, gain an attack boost, and nuke the switch in as bisharp is forced out. It also gets a free turn against sucker punch and SD. I'd rather switch terrakion into bisharp than talonflame or alomomola. It's obviously not switching into iron head but that's why it would be a situational switch in and not a guaranteed one. Source: lots of personal experience.
I mean, from a practical standpoint I kinda agree with you, but for the purposes of this compendium I have to draw the line somewhere. Getting beaten down by STABs is honestly a simple and reasonable place to draw that line IMO. Yeah, Bisharp is probably using something other than Iron Head vs switches 90% of the time, but it's hard to actually quantify just how much it's using Iron Head as opposed to its other moves (and there's always the possibility of a Bisharp tossing out more frequent Iron Heads for fear of a Terrakion coming in for a free switch and possible Justified boost). You'd also have to take into consideration similar cases. Random example off the cuff here, but Scarf Latios can switch into basically anything DD Charizard X commonly runs bar Dragon Claw and win, so would this also be an SSI? Dragon Claw is arguably more spammable than Iron Head, but by how much? No way to really measure that.

So basically, the STAB rule is here to give me a simple ruling to go by so that I won't have to analyze every matchup in detail to see what the risk to a check is, and it's still reasonable enough that it'll probably work out in practice more often that not anyway. Maybe I could come up with a different rule for SSI vs NSI, like being able to switch into at least 3/4 of a Pokemon's moves on a given moveset, but that comes with complications of its own. If you can think of a better rule to go by here, I'd appreciate some input, but for now the rule is that SSIs can't outright lose to STAB moves.

All that aside, added the other stuff. Thanks again everyone!
 
I'm surprised to see that Chesnaught isn't at least a SSI to Mega Venusaur.
There's really nothing that defensive Mega Venusaur lacking HP Fire can do to Chesnaught, and the Belly Drum variant sets up all over Venusaur's face.

0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Chesnaught: 60-72 (18.7 - 22.5%) -- possible 5HKO

Giga Drain (and Sludge Bomb) can't break Chesnaught's sub.
 
Shouldn't Mega-Bro be listed as a GSI for Azu as its highest damaging move to it is Play Rough which does 32-38% (if Choice Banded) which it can recover easily and itt has a chance to burn it with Scald.
Thanks
 

SketchUp

Don't let your memes be dreams
Shouldn't Mega-Bro be listed as a GSI for Azu as its highest damaging move to it is Play Rough which does 32-38% (if Choice Banded) which it can recover easily and itt has a chance to burn it with Scald.
Thanks
Nope. Azumarill can also use a Belly Drum set which is able to OHKO Mega Slowbro after rocks even with max defense on Slowbro:
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 334-394 (84.7 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
So no Infernape checks? I don't see it anywhere so at first I thought Pokemon ranked B- weren't included but then I saw stuff like Toxicroak and Mega Houndoom, both B-..
 

SketchUp

Don't let your memes be dreams
So no Infernape checks? I don't see it anywhere so at first I thought Pokemon ranked B- weren't included but then I saw stuff like Toxicroak and Mega Houndoom, both B-..
Infernape was C / C+ when this topic was made
 
Yeah, like I said at the top of this page, I'll make an entry for Infernape when I get the chance. Right now I've got a few other things I'm dealing with, but I'll get to it soon enough.
 
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I think Pangoro should be added as a NSI to Mega Sableye, since it OHKOs with Scrappy CB Superpower.
252+ Atk Choice Band Pangoro Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 386-456 (126.9 - 150%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Added the above. More importantly, I want to give a special thanks to OrdA for a program that he has been developing to help manage compendiums like this one. Over the last couple of days, I've been updating the compendium entries in the program with some of the more recent changes, and I've replaced the sections in the OP that I put together by hand with the versions produced by the program. The differences are currently pretty subtle, but the format is slightly neater than it was before, and the first page should be a little faster to load now due to the fact that the sprites all come from Serebii's database whereas earlier they were from a couple of different sources. More importantly, this program will make updating the compendium easier, and it will allow me to work on it without having to log onto the forums. Over the next few days or so, I'll try to experiment a little with the program and see if there's anything else I can do with it to make the compendium more user friendly.

That said, there has been a slight glitch that OrdA pointed out to me where a few Pokemon sprites have been replaced with those of their Megas (I've noticed this occur with Scizor and Diancie in particular). I've fixed many of these, but let me know if I missed any.

Oh, and I'll get around to Infernape before too long!

EDIT: Okay, so apparently some people are having trouble loading the first page after the recent edits. So far I've heard about problems with Firefox and Google Chrome, although I'm personally using Google Chrome myself and have yet to have any problems. Please let me know if you are having issues with the front page. Maybe I'll be able to find some way to fix it.

EDIT2: Google Chrome seems to be fine after all, but Firefox still has trouble with a certain script being unresponsive. Not sure how to fix that, though.

EDIT3: Also, got off my lazy butt and finally made an Infernape entry. Check it out, lemme know if anything needs to be changed, all that jazz.
 
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I don't agree with Sylveon being a GSI to Weavile.

For example, here's Specs Sylveon switching into LO Icicle Crash:
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 242-286 (61.7 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Idk if this has been raised before, but I've realized that for pretty much everything beaten by alakazam's focus blast, he isn't listed as a NSI, even though he outspeeds every single one of the pokemon that he checks with focus blast, even excadrill in sand due to trace.

I get that focus blast has to rely on shaky accuracy, but zam revenges virtually every dark type minus those with access to sucker punch (although encore can be used to turn sucker punch users into setup fodder, substitute lets him beat it, and even calm mind enables him to force a 50/50), an most steel and rock types with it as well.

Finally, zam is listed as a GSI or SSI to heatran. Although this is because of trace copying flash fire, the only real way zam does damage to tran once its in is through focus blast, otherwise it looses to toxic; so alakazam is listed at least once where focus blast is needed to categorize it as a switch in.

It's cool if there's a blanket 'no' to NSI's that use inaccrate moves in order to kill, but I think this could at least be discussed. Thanks.
 
I don't agree with Sylveon being a GSI to Weavile.

For example, here's Specs Sylveon switching into LO Icicle Crash:
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 242-286 (61.7 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It's already been said that cleric Sylveon runs a physically defensive spread on this very page

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Sylveon: 165-196 (41.8 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

granted flinches are a thing so it could be questioned how reliable Sylveon is as a GSI but it's not a 2HKO
 
I see that Suicune is a SSI for heatran but manaphy is a GSI? what does suicune have to fear from heatran that manaphy doesnt? they also both have the same way of recovery being rest + leftovers so i think suicune should move to a GSI for heatran.
 
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Idk if this has been raised before, but I've realized that for pretty much everything beaten by alakazam's focus blast, he isn't listed as a NSI, even though he outspeeds every single one of the pokemon that he checks with focus blast, even excadrill in sand due to trace.

I get that focus blast has to rely on shaky accuracy, but zam revenges virtually every dark type minus those with access to sucker punch (although encore can be used to turn sucker punch users into setup fodder, substitute lets him beat it, and even calm mind enables him to force a 50/50), an most steel and rock types with it as well.

Finally, zam is listed as a GSI or SSI to heatran. Although this is because of trace copying flash fire, the only real way zam does damage to tran once its in is through focus blast, otherwise it looses to toxic; so alakazam is listed at least once where focus blast is needed to categorize it as a switch in.

It's cool if there's a blanket 'no' to NSI's that use inaccrate moves in order to kill, but I think this could at least be discussed. Thanks.
Most likely just slipped my mind, I'm fine with adding Alakazam and its Mega to NSIs provided they can kill things with Focus Blast. I'll add it to Excadrill NSI since that's an obvious choice, and I'll go through next time I have a chance and add it to a few other NSI sections. In the meantime, if there's anywhere in particular you'd like to see it added, please let me know.

I see that Suicune is a SSI for heatran but manaphy is a GSI? what does suicune have to fear from heatran that manaphy doesnt? they also both have the same way of recovery being rest + leftovers so i think suicune should move to a GSI for heatran.
Manaphy and Starmie were actually suggested to be GSI not too long ago, so I moved them without remembering that the reason they were SSI in the first place was because of the Power Herb Solarbeam set, which is why Suicune is SSI. I'll move Manaphy and Starmie back.

Feraligatr could be a NSI for Mega Metagross. It can take anything it throws at it. In a 1 on 1 situation it beats it.

Quite actually Feraligatr hasn't been implemented aside from what can c&c it? If you'd like I could compile a list of what it can SI to and beat 1v1
Yeah, if you could, I'd really appreciate the help! If not, I'll go through and add in Feraligatr next time I get the chance.
 
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