Resource OU Checks Compendium (Read Post #72)

Status
Not open for further replies.

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
So I don't know if this has been gone over but what's the consensus on multiple sets?

So for example Stallbreaker Talonflame is a good switch-in to Charizard Y but other sets are not. Similarly, AV Slowking is a good switch-in to Charizard Y, but without the AV it fails to check. Yet Talonflame is listed as a GSI and Slowking is only SSI.

Edit; nvm about the other part but I'm still curious about this.
 
I've got three done. Dunno if their extremely valid as most are 1v1 situations. The parenthesis explains why it's S/G/NSI.

Cobalion
MAero = SSI (FFang/EQ Threat)
MAlt= SSI (Physical Variant Only)
MBeedrill= SSI (Non Drill Run)
Bisharp = SSI (Non Low Kick)
Clefable =SSI (FBlast/Thrower)
Crawdaunt=SSI (Non Superpower/Boosted)
MDiancie=SSI (EP threat) - Moonblast still 2HKOes Cobalion so it cannot switch in at all.
Dragalge=GSI (HP Fire is rare) - Draco Meteor cleanly 2HKOes if Specs. Also, getting burned by Scald sucks.
DNite= SSI (FPunch) - Cobalion is set-up bait for Dragonite though. And Earthquake is quite common.
(M)Scizor=SSI (Superpower)
Togekiss=SSI (Wide Moovepool FBlast Aura)
Tyrantrum=SSI (EQ FFang)
MVenusaur=SSI (HP Fire) - How does Cobalion check this? Most offensive Venu runs HP Fire and even if Venu for some reason doesn't carry it, Cobalion cannot touch it at all and gets worn down by Leech Seed / Giga Drain while Mega Venu heals with Synthesis.
Weavile =SSI (Non Low Kick) - I think this should be NSI because suppose that Weavile carries Low Kick, Cobalion loses 100% of the time. And low Kick is one of the common 4th moves for Weavile (the only other choices are Swords Dance and Poison Jab)


Jirachi
Mbeedrill= (Scarf) - NSI because getting hit by U-Turn / Knock Off sucks. Also, you cannot OHKO unless you run Fire Punch / Zen Headbutt
Breloom = SSI (SubPunch threat/otherwise relatively safe) - Is Focus Punch Breloom still used nowadays?
Celebi= SSI (EP threat/otherwise safe)
Conkeldur= NSI (Knock Off/2HKOes Conk)
Gengar =NSI (Scarf)
Hawlucha=SSI (Unboosted tickles/Scarf) - You need Zen Headbutt to win. Also cannot win against an already +2 Hawlucha since High Jump Kick OHKOes
MHeracross=NSI (CC hurts/2HKOes HCross) - Zen Headbutt doesn't OHKO while Pin Missile does after Rocks.
Keldeo=NSI (HPump Hurts/Scarf)
MLopunny=NSI (HJK hurts/Scarf) - Need Zen Headbutt to win
(M)Scizor = SSI (Fpunch/Knock Off hurts) - Getting hit by U-Turn / Knock Off sucks. Also you need Fire Punch which only 2HKOes.
Serperior =SSI (Unboosted/Can 2HKO F/I Punch)
Terrakion= NSI (CC hurts)
Toxicroak = SSI (Sucker Punch/ Boosted) - Drain Punch does almost half and with Sucker Punch, Jirachi faints before attacking. NSI. Also fails to check if Toxicroak is at +2
Tyrantrum= SSI (EQ/FFang threat)
Weavile = NSI (Can Revenge Kill/Scarf)


Feraligatr
MAero= NSI (Hard Hitter)
Bisharp = NSI (Hard Hitter)
Diancie =NSI (Hard Hitter)
Diggersby= NSI (Hard Hitter)
Excadrill = NSI (Hard Hitter)
(M)Garchomp =NSI (Hard Hitter)
Gengar =NSI (Hard Hitter)
Gliscor = SSI (Only if unboosted)
Hawlucha =NSI (HJK hurts)
Heatran=GSI (Outruns and OHKO Waterfall) - SSI since Power Herb Solar Beam is a thing.
MHoundoom= NSI (Secondary STAB hurts)
Infernape = NSI (Hard Hitter / GrassK threat)
Lando-T= NSI (Hard Hitter)
Lati@s=NSI (Hard Hitter)
Magnezone =NSI (Hit SEffectively) - Scarf Thunderbolt OHKOes Gatr.
Mamoswine = NSI (Hard Hitter)
Reuniclus= NSI (Hard Hitter)
Talonflame= NSI (Band/Boosted Hurts bad)
Terrakion = NSI (Hard Hitter)
Tornadus-T= NSI (Low Special Bulk)
(M)Tyranitar= NSI (Hard Hitter)
Tyrantrum= NSI (Head Smash)
Victini =NSI (Bolt Strike)
Volcarona =NSI (Giga Drain) - Gatr loses to this one since +1 Giga Drain OHKOes (and the standard Volca set runs Passho Berry)


If you require calcs I'll provide.
Some of my thoughts in bold. Not knocking you down (I'm sure you must have put in some effort) but I feel like some of the things you stated are incorrect so ...
 
So I don't know if this has been gone over but what's the consensus on multiple sets?

So for example Stallbreaker Talonflame is a good switch-in to Charizard Y but other sets are not. Similarly, AV Slowking is a good switch-in to Charizard Y, but without the AV it fails to check. Yet Talonflame is listed as a GSI and Slowking is only SSI.

Edit; nvm about the other part but I'm still curious about this.
I basically assume the best possible matchup, so if at least one Talonflame set can switch into Charizard Y every time, then Talonflame will be a GSI. That said, Slowking vs Charizard Y is sort of a tricky case. It can be 2HKOed by Solar Beam depending on SpD investment (greater chance or even guaranteed after Stealth Rock), and it can't guarantee a 2HKO back without Power Gem. Do people still run Power Gem Slowking? Because I'm fine with taking it into consideration if it's a reasonably viable move, but even if it is, the large or guaranteed chance for Solar Beam to 2HKO after Stealth Rock makes Slowking more SSI worthy.

As for KidMagic's stuff, I'll address a few of the things disputed above.

Weavile =SSI (Non Low Kick) - I think this should be NSI because suppose that Weavile carries Low Kick, Cobalion loses 100% of the time. And low Kick is one of the common 4th moves for Weavile (the only other choices are Swords Dance and Poison Jab)

Low Kick appears on less than half of all Weavile according to last month's 1825 stats, so non-Low Kick variants are more than common enough for Cobalion to be an SSI. Also, don't forget Pursuit, which is significantly more common than Poison Jab.

Mbeedrill= (Scarf) - NSI because getting hit by U-Turn / Knock Off sucks. Also, you cannot OHKO unless you run Fire Punch / Zen Headbutt
I try to give things a little leeway when it comes to U-turn since, if you think about it, there are no safe switch-ins to U-turn (unless your opponent has no checks to your switch-in). I'll go with NSI for now, though, because it's such a borderline case.

Breloom = SSI (SubPunch threat/otherwise relatively safe) - Is Focus Punch Breloom still used nowadays?
Yep.

MLopunny=NSI (HJK hurts/Scarf) - Need Zen Headbutt to win
This goes for more suggestions than just this one, but Zen Headbutt is a reasonably common and viable move on Scarf Jirachi, so it's okay if Jirachi requires Zen Headbutt to win.

I'm good with all of the other suggestions KidMagic made and the other corrections that Random Passerby made. I'll add them shortly. Thanks!
 
It'll be a little while before I can get to your changes (thanks, btw), but I figured I'd go ahead and answer these questions real quick.

Questions: Do we factor Intimidate?
For checks, yes. For example, Landorus-T's Intimidate is factored in when talking about checking various physical attackers since in practice it's able to check those physical attackers because of Intimidate's Atk drop.

If a KO Chance is above 50% factor as OHKO?
Depends on what you mean exactly. I'll say this, if a check can OHKO a threat a very high percentage of the time (think 90% or so), then it can be counted as a OHKO for the sake of SSIs and NSIs since those categories are less strict. However, if a threat can't guarantee the OHKO (or other nHKO) that it needs to win, then it can't be counted as a GSI since the category is more strict about a Pokemon being able to actually guarantee a win in a matchup. I hope that answers your question, but if not, if you could clarify what you're asking then I"ll try to answer it more clearly.
 

SketchUp

Don't let your memes be dreams
So I saw this post and I discovered a tool for this compendium in that post. When going to this site you can see the compendium without having to wait 30 seconds for the first page of this thread to load and you can also CTRL + F the pokemon you are looking for.
Also Agent Gibbs, shouldn't Taunt be considered on MGyara? It is a slash on the main set and Skarmory loses to Taunt DD Mega Gyarados when it switches in against DD or when it is Intimidated by pre-mega Gyarados.
 
I've actually been talking with OrdA about that program for about a month now, long before he ever posted the thread. In fact, the current compendium entries are made using his program. As for loading time, I'm honestly not sure why it's taking so long to load at this point. Granted, it's loading a little faster now than it used to since the sprites all come from one source (Serebii) when they used to come from a couple of different sources, but the compendium is still loading far slower here than it has been on other pages (that dropbox page, for example). Some of it might depend on your browser and internet connection, though, as I just clocked the loading time on Google Chrome and was able to load the page in just 8 seconds or so. Still, if anyone knows a way that I can eliminate most of the loading time, please let me know.

As for the Gyarados thing, I'll do that along with KidMagic's suggestions here pretty soon (going to see Ant-Man tomorrow after work, so it'll probably be late tomorrow evening or Saturday).
 

Snou

the grand master of all the things bad!
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past Smogon Snake Draft Champion
Hi! I've some suggestion to add!

Adding Weezing as Aerodactyl, Chesnaught (drum), Beedrill, Breloom, Landorus-T, Heracross, Mamoswine Conkeldurr's GSI
Adding Weezing as Azumarill, Bisharp, Diancie, Diggersby, Garchomp, Lopunny, Sylveon, Weavile, Lucario, Scizor, Hawlucha and Excadrill's SSI
Adding Weezing as Serperior's NSI
Adding Rotom-H as Victini's GSI
Adding Rotom-H as Celebi, Clefable, Garchomp, Gardevoir, Hawlucha, Sylveon and Volcarona's SSI
 
Why is Bish a GSI for Bish when it loses to low kick? Smae for MDos. If ee're ignoring low kick variants Bish still really doesn't check itself unless it's carrying... the ignored move? Makes no sense to me.

Also, I don't see a section for Mew's checks and counters anywhere on this list.
 
I don't think Hippo should be a GSI to M-Aero, since the standard spread can get 2HKOd by Aqua Tail
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 190-224 (45.2 - 53.3%) -- 33.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
And M-Bro can be 2HKOd by CB Dragonite's Outrage even with 252/252, so it shouldn't be a GSI imo.
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 154-183 (39 - 46.4%) -- 27% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 
Last edited:
It's actually moving slow because of the massiveness of the Compendium. It's a lot of sprites to load. The sprites however don't make it slow itself.

For example : - Snow's arsenal takes a while to load because of all the teams she made along with the dozens of spoilers to load.
I thought so too at first, but I don't think the number of sprites themselves is necessarily the problem. The link that SketchUp posted earlier contains a full version of the compendium with the same number of images, but it still loads very quickly in comparison to the first page of this thread. Maybe this forum software just handles large numbers of images less effectively than the dropbox? Even then, I've got a private chat from OrdA that contained full images for a few different compendiums (including mine) and it still loaded reasonably quickly, so I kinda doubt it's the forum.

Why is Bish a GSI for Bish when it loses to low kick? Smae for MDos. If ee're ignoring low kick variants Bish still really doesn't check itself unless it's carrying... the ignored move? Makes no sense to me.

Also, I don't see a section for Mew's checks and counters anywhere on this list.
There's a difference between ignoring a move for a check and ignoring a move for a threat. Moves (and other set details) are ignored for checks if they're not considered viable enough to be used at all (if a moveset isn't good, then there's no point in recommending a player use it to check something else). However, they are ignored for threats mainly if they're not common enough to actually be a major concern (why prepare specifically for a threat that you almost never see?). In the case of Bisharp, Low Kick is rarely ever seen on Bisharp, so you usually don't have to worry about running into Low Kick Bisharps. Meanwhile, I personally consider Low Kick a viable move despite its low usage, so I find it reasonable enough to run Low Kick on Bisharp to check other Bisharps (and I guess a couple of other things) if your team needs it. Therefore, since your own Bisharp can reasonably run Low Kick to beat the common forms of opposing Bisharp, it fits as a GSI. Of course, you might argue that Low Kick isn't a viable move on Bisharp, but that's a whole other discussion. Just know that the criteria for analyzing checks and threats is not necessarily the same.

As for Mew, do people use offensive Mew? Because if so I'll add it, but if all that's really out there are the passive standard defensive sets, then that won't be added right now.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, so about all these changes. I just want to apologize for all the inactivity lately. I've been slammed these past couple of weeks, and it doesn't look like my schedule is going to let up any time soon. I'll try to get around to the recent changes and to making Hoopa and Hoopa-U entries when I can. Might take me a while, but I'm trying to get something sorted out, don't worry.
 
The proximal cause of the freeze on loading the OP is the script that handles all the hidden sections, but I don't get anywhere near the same kind of slowdown on pages like Snow's arsenal which have lots of hiddens but not many hidden images. I assume the script has to parse all the images in order to work out the resulting height of the block.
 

SketchUp

Don't let your memes be dreams
I don't think Hippo should be a GSI to M-Aero, since the standard spread can get 2HKOd by Aqua Tail
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 190-224 (45.2 - 53.3%) -- 33.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Just because it's the most common spread it doesn't mean it's the only spread. Full physical defensive is a perfectly fine set because it checks pokemon like Zard-X and Excadrill much better.
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 174-206 (41.4 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 
Okay, so here's the deal. In case it hasn't been obvious enough, I've been really inactive these last few weeks. Just to give an idea of how inactive I've been, I haven't played a single game of Pokemon since before Hoopa and Hoopa-U dropped. Between full time work and the other craziness that generally happens over the course of the summer, I just haven't had enough time to sit down and enjoy the game, much less manage this compendium as much as I'd like to. While I am planning on becoming more active once again as soon as real life settles down, I also place a lot of value on this compendium and believe that it deserves to be managed by someone who will be active enough to update and manage it more regularly than I have been. Therefore, I am currently looking for someone who will be willing to take over the compendium and run it from here on out. Please PM me if you're interested in taking over. I obviously want to entrust this project with someone that can be trusted to manage it with diligence and good quality, so if multiple people ask to run it, I'll go with the person who I've noticed to be the most knowledgeable / the best forum contributor / etc. Just to give an idea of what all needs to be done so far, here's two things off the top of my head:
  • All of the suggestions after the post I made back on July 14th (so KidMagic's last big post and everything below it) still have to be addressed and, if approved, applied to the compendium.
  • Hoopa and Hoopa-U currently lack entries, so those will need to be added, although that could probably wait a little while since they're still pretty new.
Other than that, you'd just have to update the compendium as suggestions come in like normal. You can use the same system I've been using here or change it up if you want to, whatever you think will make this compendium a better resource. Any other info you might need will be provided by me via PM.

Kinda sad to let go of it since I put so much work into it, but it's for the best.

@ Below: Mkay.
 
Last edited:
With that said, Agent Gibbs when you find a person, let me know here by tagging both myself and the person who plans on taking it over and when I lock consider that approval for next taker to put up new thread.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top