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I think you may have replaced all the sprites for Gengar with that of Mega Gengar. Also, there are a few repeats...Mega Slowbro and Mega Tyranitar appears twice for Mega Aerodactyl, Hoopa-U appears twice for Celebi, etc. I haven't had the time to go through the list, but there are multiple.
Something went a little wonky last time I updated it. I'm actually working on learning how to use a program OrdA developed for this, so once I get that figured out I'll going through and fixing everything.
Hi, just wondering why amoonguss isnt listed as a check for kabutops ormega swampert. I know it takes a lot from earthquake/stone edge but shouldnt it still be at least SSI or NSI?
Hi, just wondering why amoonguss isnt listed as a check for kabutops ormega swampert. I know it takes a lot from earthquake/stone edge but shouldnt it still be at least SSI or NSI?
0 SpA Amoonguss Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Swampert: 264-312 (77.4 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Amoonguss: 204-241 (47.2 - 55.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Don't think it qualifies for as a check for Mega Pert, since it doesn't actually beat it one on one even after rocks.
Forgot that Giga Drain heals, whoops. This is fine for NSI. (And Spore apparently it's too late for mons).
Also someone double check my math, but does Kabutops get the KO with Stone Edge if Amoongus switches into Waterfall, assuming Rocks and Lefties? I'm not certain, but I think it might not survive. Seems really close, anyways.
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Amoonguss: 220-259 (50.9 - 59.9%) -- 85.2% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Amoonguss in Rain: 133-156 (30.7 - 36.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Mega Ampharos is listed as GSI to Mega Gardevoir (obviously not true).
Weavile also should be listed as an NSI to Hawlucha because Weavile outspeeds it before Unburden kicks in and easily OHKOes with Icicle Crash and is also able to revenge kill it with Ice Shard after some prior damage.
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 205-244 (68.5 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This backfires if it manages to set up a Sub tho and Hawlucha defeats Weavile with HJK or Acrobatics after Stealth Rock damage.
252 Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 202-238 (71.8 - 84.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Doublade is an absolute guaranteed switch in Hawlucha. A Sword Dance boosted Sky Attack does about 30% to 252 HP/ 0 SpDef Eviolite Doublade, and Doublade can in turn set up on its own
Doublade is an absolute guaranteed switch in Hawlucha. A Sword Dance boosted Sky Attack does about 30% to 252 HP/ 0 SpDef Eviolite Doublade, and Doublade can in turn set up on its own
I've put it into SSI, since Lando-T doesn't deal with SD variants fast enough to avoid being KOed if they SD on the switch, and offensive Earth Plate sets occasionally will run HP Ice which blows defensive sets away after Rocks.
Right on, but Doublade is already listed as a Hawlucha GSI.
I've put it into SSI, since Lando-T doesn't deal with SD variants fast enough to avoid being KOed if they SD on the switch, and offensive Earth Plate sets occasionally will run HP Ice which blows defensive sets away after Rocks.
For Terrakion, I suggest demoting Mega Venusaur to SSI instead. The reason why is because if Terrakion manages to set up a Swords Dance while holding a Life Orb, it has a high change of OHKOing the standard defensive Mega Venusaur after Stealth Rock damage (with 1 spike up it dies always). The offensive Mega Venusaur set is always OHKOed after rock damage. In a pinch, Terrakion is able to live a Giga Drain from defensive Mega Venusaur if it is healthy enough and set up a SD.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Mega Venusaur: 298-351 (82 - 96.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Mega Venusaur: 298-351 (82 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 352-417 (98 - 116.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 210-248 (65 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mega Venusaur easily walls the Scarf and lead sets tho.
Is there a reason that Mega Tyranitar is a GSI to Talonflame but normal Tyranitar is not? I'm pretty sure that although it is much bulkier, Talonflame fails to damage regular Tyranitar much and is still taking a ton from Stone Edge if it wisps. I think Tyranitar should move to GSI.
I also don't think that Mega Charizard X has 0 GSIs. Physically defensive Mega Altaria generally runs Heal Bell which helps with Wisp variants and can avoid a 2HKO from DD variants while being able to 2HKO in return. Hmm, I guess that SD can 2HKO although its going to end up killing itself in the process.
Is there a reason that Mega Tyranitar is a GSI to Talonflame but normal Tyranitar is not? I'm pretty sure that although it is much bulkier, Talonflame fails to damage regular Tyranitar much and is still taking a ton from Stone Edge if it wisps. I think Tyranitar should move to GSI.
I also don't think that Mega Charizard X has 0 GSIs. Physically defensive Mega Altaria generally runs Heal Bell which helps with Wisp variants and can avoid a 2HKO from DD variants while being able to 2HKO in return.
I'm not certain what the deal with Tyranitar is, either, given how Support Tar takes hits better than MegaTar does. Adding Tyranitar to GSI.
As for Zard X, the DD set has a few switch ins, but the SD set does not. 252 / 252 Bold Mega Altaria is 2HKOed by +2 Flare Blitz after Rocks, while the other former GSIs are 2HKOed by +2 Outrage. It's less common now that the hype has died down, but is still an option, and GSIs need to be able to switch into all of its sets.
Hmm, for some reason I didn't get alerts for the last 7 posts before Darkai34's (even though I had the thread on 'watch').
Anyway, most things seem to be okay now.
I was notified of this as well, maybe it was meant to be the other way around (Garde as a GSI to Amphy?). It does qualify for it even though discharge 2hkoes if it gets the paralysis. (Since Discharge doesn't appear in Mega Ampharos' 1825 moves, this doesn't stop it from being a GSI as we currently understand it.)
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 308-366 (80.4 - 95.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Discharge vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 133-157 (48 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Weavile also should be listed as an NSI to Hawlucha because Weavile outspeeds it before Unburden kicks in and easily OHKOes with Icicle Crash and is also able to revenge kill it with Ice Shard after some prior damage.
Personally I think that a check should beat the unburdened variant after its item has activated, but assume that you sacced something to assure Hawlucha doesn't get a standing substitute.
Weavile is kind of a situational check (S-NSI); it has a 50% chance to beat the sitrus Berry variant [80% usage], but it loses to power herb [16.5% usage] if Hawlucha got out against something it was able to kill with a Sky Attack without taking too much damage.
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 205-244 (68.3 - 81.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
As for ZardX, the way it is currently defined I think some of the SSI would qualify for GSI. (A GSI needs to switch into the sets listed in .usage1825, not into all of them).
That being said, this definition is what Agent Gibbs used, and Tressed can still decide differently. (If you do, you should probably update the description.)
Anyway, since there are no usage stats for ZardX, just usage stats for Charizard, I have tried to calculate them from Charizardite X usage and some assumptions.
Assuming All ZardY carry Roost.
Assuming DClaw, Flare Blitz, DD is only carried by ZardX.
1825 ZardX move distribution is: Roost 77.502% | Dragon Claw 89.178% | Flare Blitz 85.743% | Dragon Dance 83.108% | Earthquake 0% - 30.703% | Will-O-Wisp 0% - 21.649% | Other 0% - 23.505%
This leaves 16.892% of Charizard X that don't carry Dragon Dance. I'm expecting these to be almost exclusively Will-o-Whisp variants, otherwise all that Willo-Usage would have to come from ZardY. From this I conclude that Swords Dance is very rare.
In Addition, here's the input I received via PM on Showdown.
[15:55:13] LT2M Tom Bus: do you want to incorporate lower tier mons as potential switch ins?
[15:55:23] Orda-Y: sure
[15:55:25] LT2M Tom Bus: because I think mega steelix always switches into tyrantrum
[15:55:29] LT2M Tom Bus: and doublade, too
[15:55:29] Orda-Y: we've got stuff like Salamence and Doublade in it, so why not
^ I haven't verified the above, but I was already told that Assault Vest Drapion doesn't switch into Hoopa-U's Focus Blast. All of those still need a closer look using the calc and the .usage1825 stats.
Mega Slowbro in Lucario's GSI?
LT2M Tom Bus: Orda
LT2M Tom Bus: you should remove mega slowbro from lucario's guaranteed switch in list
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Slowbro: 174-205 (44.1 - 52%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Note: It's interesting how Dark Pulse doesn't appear by name in 1825 usage (even though there' around 20% "Other".
I have marked the table rows for dark pulse with an "xxx".
Some Input by WCAR. Some of the things he noticed can be salvaged by running rather uncommon and maybe less viable sets (like sdef hippo for Mega Diancie instead of mixed defenses, like is commonly done).
[17:52:43] WECAMEASROMANS: why is zard-y
[17:52:49] WECAMEASROMANS: listed as a check to hoopa-u
[17:53:19] WECAMEASROMANS: Hyperspace Fury KOes
[17:53:28] WECAMEASROMANS: and then zard-y cant even KO it Note: I suspect this is the same as Mega Amphy in Mega Garde checks. Was it meant to be the other way around?
We should check if this happened for some other suggested additions.
[17:54:21] WECAMEASROMANS: and you gotta take clefable & hippo out from mega chomp's SSI too :x
[17:55:35] WECAMEASROMANS: 252 Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 213-252 (54 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
[17:55:37] WECAMEASROMANS: ya you just die
[17:55:54] WECAMEASROMANS: cant even beat it 1 v 1 cuz moonblast dont KO
[17:59:46] WECAMEASROMANS: it says hippo is a GSI vs mega diancie
[18:02:33] WECAMEASROMANS: its also listing
[18:02:44] WECAMEASROMANS: clefable and chansey as GSIs to mega latias
[18:02:58] WECAMEASROMANS: when both get destroyed by cm stored power
[18:04:03] WECAMEASROMANS: how is heatran a GSI for cm clef :x
[18:04:12] Orda-Y: hmm
[18:04:18] Orda-Y: it loses to twave, right?
[18:04:24] WECAMEASROMANS: yeah
[18:04:29] WECAMEASROMANS: which is standard
[18:04:30] Orda-Y: I'll add all those to the list of things I'll post
[18:05:31] WECAMEASROMANS: also one of the things that are wrong is
[18:05:42] WECAMEASROMANS: hippo being a GSI vs sd gliscor....
[18:06:02] Orda-Y: o
[18:06:14] Orda-Y: it's probably meant to whirl out
[18:06:29] WECAMEASROMANS: ...
[18:06:32] Orda-Y: but that's not what I understand as a counter
[18:06:38] WECAMEASROMANS: thats not a GSI
[18:06:44] Orda-Y: I mean, they'll just sacc their team
[18:06:52] Orda-Y: if hippo is all you have for glisc
[18:06:59] Orda-Y: and win from there
[18:07:18] Orda-Y: or wait
[18:07:21] Orda-Y: ice fang?
[18:07:27] WECAMEASROMANS: bro ice fang does 0
[18:07:29] WECAMEASROMANS: and it roosts
[18:07:24] WECAMEASROMANS: and then it lists emboar as a gsi to bisharp when +2 sucker punch KOes it :(
Well, we already have Salamence and Doublade. Not sure where those two sit on the viability ladder, in relation to Drapion. (Edit: Mence and Doublade are UU by usage, Drapion is RU. While usage isn't the same thing as viability, I think this may be a hint)
Tbf Doublade and Salamence are suuuuuper shit and I would never entertain on a serious team so judging totally off of a viability ranking and saying these niche mons are applicable to check this stuff, where some of these checks are kind of exaggerated anyways, I don't think needs so much emphasis. If we're talking about stuff that's "viable" C+ and above is pretty much what we're talking about. Everything below that has some niche value to it. Don't particularly care about Drapion but the term viable is subject to debate and is kind of a pointless definition.
SpD Hippowdon is a GSI to Mega Diancie because Moonblast never 2hko's and Earthquake is a OHKO, so even against CM sets you'll win.
252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 160-190 (38 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 218-260 (90.4 - 107.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Dark Pulse on Lucario is at least below 6% in 1695 and 1825 stats, but possibly even lower, so I think MBro is fine as a GSI
Just because I was curious, this is what the compendium would look like without the stuff below C+ Rank: Link.
If we did end up removing anything, that would be easy to do (took me only a few seconds).
Personally I could live with getting rid of Salamence, but not a lot else. Even things Like Weezing are useful to have, imo - even though I'd never think of using it.
For Terrakion, I suggest demoting Mega Venusaur to SSI instead. The reason why is because if Terrakion manages to set up a Swords Dance while holding a Life Orb, it has a high change of OHKOing the standard defensive Mega Venusaur after Stealth Rock damage (with 1 spike up it dies always). The offensive Mega Venusaur set is always OHKOed after rock damage. In a pinch, Terrakion is able to live a Giga Drain from defensive Mega Venusaur if it is healthy enough and set up a SD.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Mega Venusaur: 298-351 (82 - 96.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Mega Venusaur: 298-351 (82 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 352-417 (98 - 116.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 210-248 (65 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mega Venusaur easily walls the Scarf and lead sets tho.
I missed this when responding to Bludz, whoops. In any case, your points are valid so I'll make these changes.
OrdA, SD Zard X might not make the usage cut, but it is a set on the analysis and thus needs to be considered because of that. On the other hand, Lucario doesn't run Dark Pulse on any of its sets, nor does it see enough usage to remove MegaBro. I also find Clefable to be fine as SSI for MegaChomp, as the Unaware Wall set is able to deal with it outside of sand, given the extra turn of recovery from Protect and having it switch in on either SD or a Dragon STAB.
252 Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 177-208 (45 - 52.9%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
SketchUp's post is also correct, even though SpDef Hippo mostly inferior, its still functional and can be used in a pinch. The rest of your post appears to be accurate, so I'll update to reflect it in a little bit.
Also curious as to how you all feel about adding Drapion and other mons that aren't on the VR. I'm not opposed to the idea since if they work, they work, and obviously we can use our judgement when considering truly awful mons (hi Pachirisu), but it might also be worth sticking to things on the VR just for the sake of simplicity and scope. I'd like to hear a few more opinions before making a decision and this, so consider that a discussion point for the next little while.
Also curious as to how you all feel about adding Drapion and other mons that aren't on the VR. I'm not opposed to the idea since if they work, they work, and obviously we can use our judgement when considering truly awful mons (hi Pachirisu), but it might also be worth sticking to things on the VR just for the sake of simplicity and scope. I'd like to hear a few more opinions before making a decision and this, so consider that a discussion point for the next little while.
I was thinking Mega Bro was fine for Lucario too, by our rules, just forwarded all the input anyway.
I think WCAR was referring to this calc: 252 Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable in Sand: 229-270 (58.2 - 68.7%)
So, unaware Clef doesn't work while Sandstorm is up, due to sand force. I think we did assume that things like Kingdra are in rain. Can't quite remember how we did it for SSI.
But there is also this: 252 Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 177-208 (45 - 52.9%) -- 27.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and two turns of Leftovers recovery
As for Hippowdon, I think we have to assume it runs EQ and Draco. (Even though there are no usage stats for Mega Garchomp, which is kinda annoying again.) 252 SpA Mega Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 228-268 (54.2 - 63.8%)
0 Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon in Sand: 156-184 (37.1 - 43.8%)
0 Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 120-142 (28.5 - 33.8%)
So this one actually works while outside Sand, without a chance to get 2hko'ed. And it has a chance to avoid the 2hko in Sand.
As for Hippowdon, I think we have to assume it runs EQ and Draco. (Even though there are no usage stats for Mega Garchomp, which is kinda annoying again.) 252 SpA Mega Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 228-268 (54.2 - 63.8%)
0 Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon in Sand: 156-184 (37.1 - 43.8%)
0 Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 120-142 (28.5 - 33.8%)
So this one actually works while outside Sand, without a chance to get 2hko'ed. And it has a chance to avoid the 2hko in Sand.
Pretty sure SD Mega Chomp is a thing in which this happens:
+2 252 Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon in Sand: 363-427 (86.4 - 101.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
And that's assuming it's Jolly / Naive. If it runs Adamant,
+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon in Sand: 399-469 (95 - 111.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Based on this calculation, I really don't think Hippo is a GSI at all. It can be SSI but that's just assuming Mega Garchomp doesn't run SD (furthermore, it has a tiny chance to get 2HKOed by Sand Force EQ by a Naive unboosted Mega Chomp).
I was thinking about if it can remain an SSI even though it has a chance to lose to the main set in sand. I'm really not sure how we want to handle this, seeing as SSIs usually have to beat the main set but may lose to some others.
Hippo does lose to the main set, but under special conditions that may or may not be very common around Mega Chomp. (Here's how Agent Gibbs handled it, but Tressed may decide to do it differently. Edit: He just did it like that for rain, not for Sand? Interesting.)
--
--
On a side note, I wanted to propose changing our Gothitelle Checks a little. Currently what we have is
(GSI/SSI/NSI: 38 / 0 / 0)
Seeing how there's no point in checking Gothitelle except after it's killed something.
Assuming it's the following set:
Rest, Calm Mind, Psychic, Trick @ Choice Scarf.
Gothitelle can trap something that can't touch it; such mons exist on balance and stall, and even on offense to some minor extent. It then proceeds to Trick it a Choice Scarf and set up to +6 on it, then wait until it runs out of pp and use Trick again right before it dies to struggle. Thus optionally getting back its Scarf without getting locked into a move.
So, Assuming Goth is at +6 (which it can get for free against a decent amount of pokemon), scarfed, and not locked into any move. Some of the above checks don't work: ZardX, ZardY, Gengar, Gardevoir, Manectric, Rotom-W, Mega Heracross, Kyurem-B, Volcarona and I think regular Hoopa all lose to it 1v1.
PS: I had changed the NSIs into GSIs in my own version, because I had implemented it to sort by the number of GSI >> SSI >> NSI (Link), and Gothitelle was appearing to be some kind of super threat, right up there with ZardX and Hoopa-U, since it had no GSI or SSI; but for all the wrong reasons (normally this indicates it 2hkos most of the meta).
Somehow this made it over to the version that was uploaded into this thread, feel free to change it back if you want.
Edit2: I could definetely live with adding some exotic answer to mons that are severely lacking switch ins(Like ZardX, Hoopa-U, Lucario, Diggersby, Mega Chomp, Tyrantrum) or just checks in general (Kingdra).
Not sure if we should add the same exotic answers to everything they check, but we might as well go ahead and add Drapion everywhere if we're adding it for just one.
All in all I'm okay with exotic stuff if it serves a certain, hard to fulfill purpose. So unless I've missed something big, don't add Pachirisu. Mayyybe add Drapion, to either just Hoopa-U or probably to everything it checks.
And maybe remove Salamence, idk. (doesn't cause any harm where it is and takes time to remove)
