OU Suspect Testing Round 3 Voter Identification and Suspect Nominations

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Deoxys-S : Basically guaranteed Spikes, Magic Coat owns Mischievous heart users and forces you to run Espeon/Xatu if you dont like losing your whole team to hazards, Spin also but that is rather easy to stop and there are a distinct lack of good spinners. Dual Screens are also way too easy to get up with this thing too which makes that irritatingly broken Gorebyss Shell Smash pass strategy easy, which players like Stallion abused this round. Its basically too fast and its movepool is massive and does its job at supporting the team too well, it hasn't changed from last gen. People say there is no such thing as a lead, i call BS on this. D-S is THE lead.

Blaziken : Speed Boost makes it way too powerful in Sun, the Protect/SD/Hi Jump Kick/Flare Blitz set is broken. It basically forces you to use Psychic Slowbro or bust as other waters are doing nothing to it with their main STAB move nerfed blasting through even things like Jellicent with fire moves. The sheer force of Sun boosted Flare Blitz is ridiculous, after a Swords Dance post intimidate (+1) it OHKO's 4/0 Salamence and Gyarados with SR up. This is with Leftovers and no boosting item on Blaziken, that speaks for itself in my opinion. You cant even revenge kill it because it'll just Protect on your scarfer and get even faster.

Reuniclus : Nothing apart from Sp.Def Scizor and Jirachi handle this this well at all whilst still actually being useful. Spritomb and Shubaruugo are scarcely used which are the next best things to actually dealing with it. The former is inferior to Jellicent/other Pokemon at doing other things and Pain Split has always sucked and now Rest sucks too. The latter is inferior to Scizor and has a poor movepool. Tyranitar is also not a counter or a good check, for a start it cant actually KO Reuniclus and is also at risk from Focus Blasts and then there is the Trick Room set which also KO's it. The Calm Mind set is far too bulky and is ridiculously hard to take out and stop it sweeping and this is amplified against stall whilst the Trick Room set rips though offense whilst still being really bulky.

Latios :
The other Pokemon which forces you to use Sp.Def Jirachi, Sp.Def Tyranitar and Sp.Def Scizor, preferably the latter 2 with Pursuit or it'll just keep coming in and out to wear your team down easily. People say this is a diverse metagame, how ? When there are things like this forcing you to run a few specific Pokemon or lose. It will beat pretty much everything else by simply hit and running with Specs Draco Meteor. It KO's things like Max HP Scizor with its STAB move if it switches in which is ridiculous. Trick makes any defensive counters absolutely dead weight such as Blissey which makes them easy to beat, not only for Latios but for team mates too which would be the old "support characteristic" in gen 4. I get that this isn't gen 4 anymore but it still does essentially the same thing.

Sandveil/Snowcloak/Bright Powder/Lax Incense under evasion : Yeah, we have enough luck in the metagame. If you outplay your opponent the whole match, this can still cost you, that really should not be the case. Its my own fault if my Fire Blast misses, i but cant do anything to stop this. It adds nothing viable to the game skill wise and when you have crap like Sub Chomp subbing down fishing for misses you know its broken. There was a reason evasion was banned and its to stop stuff like this ridiculousness.
I'm posting in the hopes that my Special Permissions Application will be accepted. While I don't have anything to nominate that hasn't already been nominated, I would like to expand upon some of the previous nominations: I feel that I can add something to the reasoning behind them and perhaps clear up some of the confusion I've seen in the other Suspect discussion thread.

Blaziken: I'd like to start with Blaziken. Most of what can be said about this Pokemon has already been covered by previous nominations, so I'll just add what I can. I used Blaziken extensively while laddering and it was an integral part of my most successful team. I found myself losing Blaziken due to Life Orb recoil or Hi Jump Kick misses far more often than any opposing Pokemon actually being able to counter Blaziken. Blaziken almost never failed to open up holes in opposing teams no matter what my opponents did. The times when Blaziken didn't succeed in doing so were almost entirely prompted by my own bad play or luck.

Drizzle/Drought: The reason I feel that these two abilities are broken as opposed to Sand Stream and Snow Warning is because permanent Rain and permanent Sun offer far more benefits than permanent Sandstorm or permanent Hail. Rain and Sun provide boosts and nerfs to two types of attack: Water-type and Fire-type attacks, as well as affecting the accuracy of certain moves and the percentage of HP recovered by certain recovery moves. Sandstorm, however, does not provide boosts to attacks. It simply grants a single-stage boost in Special Defense to Rock-type Pokemon. Most Rock-type Pokemon have low Special Defense in the first place and the Rock-type is not a very good defensive type anyway, so Sandstorm's effect has is nowhere near as powerful as that of Rain or Sun. Hail isn’t even in the same class as any of the other weathers, as the only benefits it provides are boosted accuracy for certain moves and the activation of abilities such as Ice Body and Snow Cloak.

Excadrill: Excadrill sets up far too easily and destroys teams without a dedicated counter. Almost every team I saw on the ladder carried Skarmory or Gliscor as insurance against Excadrill unless they ran Drought, Drizzle, or Azumarill. Excadrill’s immediate Speed allows it to run Swords Dance with very little fear of being revenge killed and it can break through even its counters with a lucky flinch or two from Rock Slide.

Latios: I’m not quite sure how Latios got through the first couple of tests, but it really shouldn’t have. Its sheer versatility means that there is no safe switch-in to Latios, as it can remove any would-be check or counter with the appropriate move. Even Choice Scarf Tyranitar has to rely on mind games to nab the KO. Without a Specially Defensive Steel-type or Specially Defensive Tyranitar, any team that faces Latios is practically toast.
Thanks for the opportunity. It's really appreciated. EDIT: ...or I'm not in? I could have sworn I didn't have that checkmark before...

I'd typically not nominate as a voter, and this is probably way too late to catch on, but I think that it's time to reevaluate the combo ban. What I am proposing here is a change to simply banning Swift Swim. The combo ban has presented some philosophical issues, so, while it was a great move at the time, I think that a conversion to a simple ban is warranted here. The reason I choose Swift Swim rather than Drizzle is that Drizzle has shown to be extremely valuable to the balance of this metagame as we currently know it, whereas Swift Swim seems to be used merely to counter rain or to execute niche temp-rain strategies, which are not nearly as valuable to the metagame. In Gen IV, we don't merely ban offensive Garchomp to preserve defensive Garchomp's role in the metagame; we ban Garchomp entirely.

This doesn't mean that I don't have any other suspects to list. Like I implied, I'll leave all that for voting.

BIG loven

Not so little anymore
special application (hopefully)

Drizzle: even with the ban of swift swim wayyyyy to many pokemon benefit from eternal rain. Needs to go so drought can rule supreme

Latios: Latios has great speed, great special attack, and great bulk to go with it. + access to calm mind and recovery moves he's just too overpowered for this metagame. too much shit revolves around killing latios he needs to go

Blaziken: this thing has like what 2 counters? after a swords dance your definitely gonna lose some pokemon. + if this bitch is in the sun and gets in a swords dance your fucked HARD. too easy to abuse and needs to go
I'm posting here hoping that my Special Permission App gets accepted.


-Blaziken: I didn't want to nominate him, but I don't see any reason not to nominate him anymore. Outside of the Sun, only Slowbro and Defensive Tentacruel can counter him. Only Azumarill and 100% check him.
When there IS Sun, only Slowbro can truly stop him.
It's quite ridiculous and not everyone should be running Slowbro just to stop him.

-Latios: Once again, I'm nominating Latios. You have few options:
* Specially Defensive Tyranitar
* Specially Defensive Scizor
* Specially Defensive Jirachi
* Specially Defensive Metagross
* Ferrothorn

All of them get wrecked by either HP Fire, Surf, or Trick.
It's ridiculous and once they're gone, it's Game Over as you'll slowly lose your whole team.

I have no other nominations.
I sent in a Special Permissions Application and am hoping it is accepted.

Withdrawing my nomination for Thundurus. No Suspects.


Private messages are the best way to reach me
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Sand Viel and BrightPowder: This ability and item should be banned under Evasion Clause. I use 100% accurate moves a simple reason: guaranteeing I will land x attack on my opponent. It disgusts me as I watch my opponent use substitute four consecutive times hoping he/she will be graced by the god of luck so he/she can get a free Swords Dance in then proceed to sweep the rest of my team. I've even lost in the finals of an LNT because of BrightPowder Garchomp... on the last turn.

Latios: I feel Latios is a centralizing Pokémon in the metagame. Throughout this latest iteration of suspect testing, I've noticed a huge increase in the use of Specially Defensive Jirachi and Tyranitar. These two Pokémon can switch in with impunity most of the time even directly into super effective hits (Jirachi only takes ~40% from specs Hidden Power Fire). Unlike in 4th gen., one cannot run Blissey because of the fear of Psycho Shock looming. Once these two Pokémon are removed, Latios is free to launch Draco Meteors, ripping holes in the opponent's team. In addition, Latios has a nice base 110 speed to boot.
Not sure if it's too late, but I have a few nominations after some thought.


Nominating Drizzle to be banned, rather than the current Drizzle + Swift Swim ban. The main abusers of the set were primarily issues due to their combinations of speed, power, and coverage, none of which has changed. Sure the best sweepers may not be hitting 450+ Speed, but they still outspeed a vast majority of the metagame. Tornadus and Thundurus outrun every commonly seen pokemon bar Starmie, who joins the genies in boasting about the superb coverage it achieves, as well as access to fully accurate Thunder and boosted Hydro Pump. I've turned entire sweeps on their head simply by running a LO Starmie of my own, and it doesn't run Thunder.

Tornadus has impeccable coverage in just 2 moves, Hurricane and Focus Blast (or it can go mixed and use Hammer Arm for the likes of Blissey and Tyranitar). Specially Defensive Zapdos is the only thing that can really take the combination, and with Prankster Tail Wind it can set up a pseudo Swift Swim for its team as it takes its dying breath.

I've already covered Starmie, while Thundurus simply has no viable switch-ins. Coming into NP Thunderbolt is hard enough, but the upgrade to Thunder makes all the difference considering the power and increased chance of paralysis. And if you falsely assume that it runs NP + 3 Attacks, you could find your ScarfLatios Thunder Waved and left incapable of dealing with their CM Virizion and such as you kill it - a 75% chance due to the possible paralysis.

Those are just some prominent threats; there are way more pokemon that benefit from rain that aren't as salient as these threats, both offensive and defensive. To list a few: Azumarill, Empoleon, Jirachi, Ferrothorn, Metagross, Latias, Latios, Virizion, Magnezone, Politoed itself...the list goes on.

To sum it up, I have ScarfLatios (which was capable of outrunning even a few Swift Swimmers back in that era) and LO Starmie as well as Ferrothorn on my team, but rain presents a serious challenge regardless. This is not a problem in and of itself - but it is its own monster and I think the support it provides is simply too vast for OU.


I am not nominating Drought because I believe it will somehow be "overpowered" if Drizzle goes - if that were the case I may as well nominate Sand Stream. I think Drought is broken now, for similar reasons to Drizzle.

Sun is more difficult to abuse than Rain, but with Swift Swim out of the question they are much more comparable in nature. Many will claim Ninetales to be the most frail (it is), but it is also the only weather inducer to inflict status with Will-o-Wisp, essentially providing an additional 12% to Stealth Rock for the other inducers and leveling the playing field.

Chlorophyll abusers are also much more viable this generation than last. The most prominent of these is Venusaur, who is impossible to wall unless you run Blissey or Heatran. The fact that it has a healthy base 80 speed and great coverage means that, should non-Scarf Politoed, Abomasnow (lol), or Tyranitar come in, +2 Energy Ball or Sludge Bomb will clear the path with ease. And with its decent bulk (similar to Ludicolo), Venusaur isn't always taken out by non-STAB super effective attacks. Other users include Sawsbuck, who has a great base 95 speed sitting faster than all of the Swift Swimmers ever were, Shiftry, and Venusaur. At least those are the most threatening. And conveniently, the pokemon that wall them are bait for...

The fire-type. These pokemon become beastly under the sun with their powerful, acceptably accurate STAB. I do run non-weather, and my own Volcarona greatly appreciates sun to the point where it can sweep teams on its own by coming into Ninetales, of all things, and this is with a Lum Berry. After a single boost, it isn't KOd by Venusaur's Sludge Bomb and can easily sweep - Heatran is the only thing standing in its way. Speaking of, Heatran is an equally powerful threat. I ran SpecsTran for a while and I believe I OHKOd a Latios after rocks using Fire Blast, just to give an idea. It really appreciates the loss of the Water weakness, too, and often grabbed a Flash Fire boost for overkill.

We will all agree, however, that Blaziken is the most threatening thing a sun team has to offer. It essentially removes Jellicent, Gyarados, and Azumarill as checks, and turns weaker water moves into set-up fodder. The ability to fire off such immediately powerful 180 BP STABs while boosting speed is just too much, though I find it manageable outside of the sun. Aside from this, there are other benefactors of sun that far outnumber the benefactors of sand (shitty rock-types who fail to function in OU even with the SpD boost). Among them are Latios and Latias with their boosted HP Fire, other dragons with boosted fire attacks, and anything weak to water.


I've been arguing this one from the beginning, and it seems that people are starting to finally understand what I've been saying all along (at least I hope so): Drizzle is the overpowered factor, otherwise Manaphy is perfectly manageable. On the condition that Drizzle is banned, I ask that Manaphy be reinstated into the OU metagame.

For this to be valid, we must look at its stats and movepool relative to the rest of the metagame.

Manaphy's base 100 SpA (which is the only offensive spectrum it poses a threat on) is fairly average by Gen 5 standards. With Surf as its strongest STAB, it doesn't really have a way to pick a "power option," especially as it is forced to run HP Electric for particular threats. Base 100 defenses across the board are among the sturdiest in OU as far as offensive threats go, but without investment they simply give it a few opportunities to switch-in, which is bearable. So that leaves two routes...offensive set up, or defensive set up (or bulky water, which is not threatening at all).

-3 Attacks + Boost: Calm Mind or Tail Glow / Surf / Ice Beam / HP Electric. Tail Glow boosts Manaphy's offensive stat to pretty high levels, but we see these numbers in the form of Excadrill and Garchomp regardless, while defensive behemoths like Ferrothorn can usually weather a hit and strike back. It's good speed lets it both outrun and be outrun, which is fair. And while it may not fall to much in a single unboosted hit, there are plenty of powerful checks to it that don't mind 2HKOing, such as Rotom-W, Specs/LO Latios, CM Virizion, CBTerrakion, etc. Without recovery, Manaphy will be worn down as any other sweeper.

-Bulky Set Up: In the Drizzle metagame, this set up was usually Rest / Calm Mind / Surf, and either a coverage option or Acid Armor in the final slot, either of which made Manaphy too difficult to kill or granted it still-considerable coverage. But no longer.

Without Drizzle providing that insta-Rest, Manaphy must run Rain Dance on its own, reducing its moveset to Rest / Rain Dance / Calm Mind / Scald. It is now much more harshly walled, and with the higher defensive investment comes lower speed. Should it invest in physical defense, Latios, Virizion, Thundurus, and other friends can take it down. SpD investment means that the physical side is exposed and relies on a Scald burn to do much of its work.


-Ban Drizzle
-Ban Drought
-Bring back Manaphy if Drizzle goes.

Otherwise, I have no complaints with the metagame.
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