OU Suspect Testing Round 3 Voter Identification and Suspect Nominations

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Nominations:

Blazekin:
Incredibly powerful with few counters inbetween, that gets more ridiculous in the sun. The only only a few pokemon that can check/counter him, and most of them can't switch in on him. I would be willing to settle with an ability ban if that were allowed, but I am guessing not.

Edit:
Any item that increases accuracy

We have an evasion clause for a reason, and the only reason I can assume that this is still hear is that weather was everyone's concern. Bottom line, same things that have been said before: The only reason this item is run is to induce the chance to win a game out of thin air.
 
Nominations :

Doryuuzu : Same as before. Despite many protest, its counter is incredibly small and some of them, isnt very practical in usage or has huge problem in the meta. It has quite great bulk higher than even machamp and has high attack and high speed along with option to become faster than any nonscarfed thing or become very hard hitting.
It is basicaly the best overall sweeper right now tbh. His option is limited but he can do both SD set and Bulky SD Rapid spin lefties set well.

Reuniclus : After using TR and CM set, i must say im not really seeing any great result. But after i use the totally broken TH set(Trick hindrance) i must say this thing is ridiculous. It has high HP high SpA to offset its bulky spread and can easily cripple many things. As a bonus, the only unburnable sweeper is weak to his STAB.
And i must say his CM set is quite insane compared to teh rest of the metagame.

Thundrus : Although its a bit less than what i expect, it is very good. It is nearly or total unwallable, has priority support move to take down things and have great typing.
I am a bit unsure about this but i think it warrant a nominations due to his power.

Tornadus : People at first underestimated him but i think he is worse than thundruss.
Specs set or LO 4 attack set is done by him in much superior way since flying is such a good type covered by his 125 SpA and hammer arm or focus blast allowing it to break through most core and has massively powerful attacking power. It cant have support move like thundurss but it have insanely powerful Hurricane that pretty much make up its downfall VERY well. Its basicaly more powerful than thun immediately.

Drizzle : AGAIN. The only reason i can beat rain now is man people risk poli on my Terakion's CC. However, played REALLY well and considering boost it has, rain is just ridiculous. It has better abuser and better pokemon and water is infinitely better to be spammed than fire(sun) to be spammed to make up the loss of speed. 100 % acc thunder and hurricane is insane and it also weaken fire attack which means walling some things made easier. It just too insane
 
Swift Swim + Drizzle

Aldaron's proposal has done its job in preventing Drizzle from being banned. However, it is not a viable long-term solution to the issue. 19 fully evolved Pokemon can have the ability Swift Swim, and unlike with Inconsistent, none of them except for three have shown any potential for being broken in this metagame. Most of the others are not competitively viable, but some are, the the ones that are should not be restricted unnecessarily.

However, simply allowing rain to return to the state it was in in Round 2 would be a horrible mistake. As such, I make the following nominations in place of Swift Swim + Drizzle:

Kingdra + Drizzle
Ludicolo + Drizzle
Kabutops + Drizzle

It is clear now that one or more of these three Pokemon is the real issue here, rather than Swift Swim as a whole or Drizzle. To my understanding, if Swift Swim + Drizzle can be banned to address the problem of the top Swift Swim users in rain, then there is no reason that a ban such as Kingdra + Drizzle cannot be made to address the same issue. This is assuming that when the rules state that an Ability + Pokemon combination, it is referring to that ability being used by that Pokemon, not on the team of that Pokemon, as to my knowledge, there has never been a decision regarding the latter. However, if these nominations are rejected, I instead make the following nominations:

Kingdra
Ludicolo
Kabutops

This should be self-explanatory. These three Pokemon dominated Round 2 and resulted in calls both for a Drizzle ban and for a Swift Swim ban, as well as the eventually tested Swift Swim + Drizzle ban. It is these individual Pokemon that is the issue - not the ability, not the weather, and not any other individual Pokemon. If they cannot be banned only in Drizzle conditions, then they should be banned entirely.

On the other hand, if the nominations made for the banning of an individual Pokemon only under Drizzle are accepted, then and only then I make the following nomination:

Manaphy

To be replaced with the following:

Manaphy + Drizzle

Manaphy was the other part of the issue with Drizzle teams in Round 2. Unlike the top Swift Swim users, it was dealt with as an individual Pokemon. However, if it is found that the top Swift Swim users can be dealt with as individual Pokemon, but only under Drizzle, like the ban of Swift Swim + Drizzle, then the same can apply to Manaphy; at the very least, for the sake of testing it. Manaphy's greatest threat was its ability to abuse Hydration + Rest on sweeping sets, and outside of Drizzle, this is horribly impractical - whether it is using the limited rain from another Pokemon and putting a time limit on its bulky sweep, or setting up the rain itself and giving up its last coverage slot after already using Rest and a set-up move. It is impossible to be sure whether or not Manaphy would still be broken like this, but if such a ban would be permitted, it should at least be tested.

Brightpowder / Lax Incense

I nominate these items to be banned under Evasion Clause. Their only purpose is to increase luck through Evasion, something that is inherently undesirable for the metagame, as evidenced by the broad bans of evasion moves already existing under Evasion Clause. Luck is not a bad element of Pokemon, but more luck through Evasion is not something we need, or ever want.

Sand Veil + Sand Stream
Snow Cloak + Snow Warning

I also nominate these two combinations under Evasion Clause. A 20% Evasion boost without any action is a substantial advantage that can easily be abused, and is not something that is desirable in this metagame. This problem could be solved by banning Sand Veil and Snow Cloak entirely, but that would result in the banning or restriction of usage of Garchomp, Cacturne, Sandslash, Glaceon, Froslass, and Beartic from all teams. That would be an undesirable ban, as none of those Pokemon are broken at present. Of those six, the only two viable in OU are Garchomp and Froslass, but the rest have the potential to be viable in lower tiers. Given the near-nonexistence of the moves Sandstorm and Hail in competitive battling, at least on teams designed to make actual use of that weather condition, this limited version of the ban would remove all real potential for a player to get an Evasion boost from these abilities without resulting in a complete ban of the Pokemon themselves from other teams, in any tier. This nomination is only if additional nominations of a combination of a weather inducing ability and a weather abusing ability are accepted. If not, I will not replace this with another nomination.
 

franky

aka pimpdaddyfranky, aka frankydelaghetto, aka F, aka ef
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i am f

sand veil - so stupid and it takes wins from guaranteed wins
 

Jibaku

Who let marco in here????
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Confirming as a special app user.

Nominating two (rather controversial) suspects (and only as suspects, should I get accepted. Otherwise, I'm still trying to minimize bans):

Deoxys-S:
Dual Screen, fast Spikes, and Mixed sweeper all have devastating effects. Individiually, these sets don't break Deoxys-S, but the ability to utilize them all (as well as mix-matching them) gives it tremendous versatility allows it to leave gaping holes with surprising consistency. Team preview makes Deoxys-S harder to fight against as its positioning matters a lot to both the user and the opponent (considering that the lead metagame doesn't exist anymore).

Blaziken:
I guess this is less controversial but I think people will laugh at me anyways. Speed Boost Blaziken hits extremely hard with its 120/110 Attack stats, 120+ BP STABs, and access to Swords Dance and Work Up to boost even further (or just using three attacks + Protect). Revenging Blaziken offensively is difficult due to Speed Boost, thus forcing you to use Jellicent (shaky), and Slowbro to stop it fairly reliably (in addition to it killing itself I suppose), as well as revenging it with Azumarill. Blaziken has a bit of a moveslot syndrome I guess though, but it's still pretty devastating when you face the wrong kind of Blaziken.

Semi-nomming this:

LatiAs: (Okay this almost goes against everything I stand for). JUST TO BE CLEAR I am not nomming her for her strength or otherwise things related to her battle prowess and the rest of the metagame's reaction. And if I do get to vote and she makes it in I will definitely vote OU. However, I nominated Latias so that people who nommed Latios are aware that this thing still exists. I think too much emphasis has been placed on Latios' higher special attack, whereas Latias' better Defense and Special Defense are ignored. I mean, sure, the metagame prefers more offensive Pokemon nowadays, but Latios/Latias is just one of those few Pokemon that covers a lot of stuff in the metagame and the extra defenses to take on repeated blows from the likes of Virizion, Rotom-W, and even Landorus is highly valuable, whereas Latios gets overloaded substantially easier. It's not like Latias is an offensive slouch with her 110 base Special Attack either. Having utilized both Latios and Latias (and sometimes interchangeably, I can no come to a conclusion as to which is better (even if I run offensive Latias). Reminding once again that people should consider nomming Latias and Latios in one, and hoping that for this round Latios does not get singled out again (or worse, sortof, Latias gets into suspect and Latios doesn't).
 

PK Gaming

Persona 5
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Special app user (hopefully)

Blaziken: Arguably the most broken pokemon in the metagame, Blaziken literally has 1 guaranteed counter (Slowbro). While there are many other offensive powerhouses that lack concrete counters like Thundurus, at least they can be checked by choiced users. Blaziken is capable of bypassing them due to his speed boost ability. One mistake can cost you the game because he simply becomes to fast to check. Switching into Blaziken is hard because of his high powered STAB moves. For example, Blaziken is capable of powering through would be checks like Latias, Gyarados and Gliscor with +2 Stone Edge and Flare Blitz respectively. Blaziken can even go mixed to deal with Slowbro. (Slowbro is 2HKOed by a combination of Fire Blast + Hidden Power Grass) Mixed can also destroy Gliscor without crippling without itself.

Reuniclus(copied): Reuniclus is broken because of the the combination of excellent bulk and the magic guard ability. Magic guard alone makes Reuniclus ridiculously hard to take down due to its immunity to entry hazards and status, and the ability to boost up its special defense via calm mind makes it nearly impossible to kill. Reuniclus is only checked by Scizor (Tyranitar is a shaky check at best since +1 Focus Blast OHKOes) Reuniclus alone can demolish stall teams and is quite possibly the strongest Pokemon in the entire metagame.

Drought + Chlorophyll:I think that sun should get a complex ban, just like rain did. Sun teams rely on chlorophyll sweepers and their removal would greatly nerf sun teams, making them balanced.

Latios(copied w/ edits): Latios is fast and strong, and it hits way too hard a Choice Specs. Even Steel types can be worn down by Specs Draco Meteor spam, forcing every team to run some variant of Tyranitar who is decent check at best(Specs Surf can 2HKO most variants). Blissey and Chansey cannot counter Latios because of constant threat of trick or Psych Shock. Latios can also run a expert belt to bluff a choice specs mess and mess up his conventional checks.

Excadrill(copied w/ edits)
A Pokemon with an ability that gives it 604 speed, with a base 135 Attack stat. It's movepool is lacking, but it has the bare essentials specifically Swords Dance and Rock Slide. If Excadrill manages to get a Swords Dance, it will sweep you because nothing can keep up with it's speed. It literally has only 1 hard counter in Gliscor, while checks like Skarmory (can't really threaten Excadrill / only phazes it) and Hitmontop (can't repeatedly switch into Earthquake) aren't enough to stop it. I'm starting to think that Life orb is Excadrill's best item because the power he wields is outrageous. Even Gliscor can't take a +2 adamant LO return with some prior damage, and Hippowdon is OHKOed by +2 adamant LO Earthquake with entry hazards. Balloon on the other hand still gives Excadrill that unnatural ground immunity, giving it even more opportunities to set up and sweep teams.

BrightPowder/Lax incense(copied): Non-competitive. Nobody likes facing Pokemon who hold these items and turns matches into a crapshot. It should be banned for breaking evasion clause anyway.
 

PDC

street spirit fade out
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I'm PDC.

Blaziken - This thing has like no counters thanks to speed boost. Slowbro is probubly the only guaranteed counter. Great STAB, boosting moves, and power in general give Blaziken all the elements for a perfect sweeper thanks to Speed Boost. It is capable of powering through many sweepers very easily and outruns almost the entire metagame after just +1. Unlike other sweepers which can be checked by scarfers, it constantly gets speed boosts. Once at +2 it outspeeds scarfers in no time flat.

Latios - Fast and strong with amazing power is basically what Latios is. Along with a slight bit of special bulk to weather common hits of the metagame. It even deals quite a bit to steels with a strong LO Draco Meteor. Thanks to Psycho Shock Chansey and Blissey even have to be careful switching in. A extremly powerful Choice Specs destroys everything in it's path. Latios also has realiable recovery. This makes it all the more dangerous.

Bright Power / Lax Incense(copied): Non-competitive. Nobody likes facing Pokemon who hold these items and turns matches into a crapshot. It should be banned for breaking evasion clause anyway.

Drought + Chlorophyll : Same boat as rain. It will nerf it and make it more balanced. Espescially with the new sun sweeping additions.
 

Bologo

Have fun with birds and bees.
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No suspects

While there are definitely some top threats in the metagame right now, they're all perfectly manageable. There's no weather that's currently "the best" right now, and it's not too hard to beat them, even if you're not running your own weather. I personally feel that having too much variety can be just as boring as not having enough, and that it's good to have some pokemon in OU that are top threats, but not necessarily overpowered, such as the ones we have in OU right now. It makes it a nice challenge to beat them, but it's not an unenjoyable challenge. Therefore, I don't feel that there are any suspects in this metagame.
 
Confirming as hobo bob.

Latios- This guy is the reason we are seeing Tyranitar on practically every team. With base 110 speed, Latios can outspeed most of the tier and fire off Draco Meteors with ease. With Choice Specs, Meteor OHKO's nearly anything that doesn't resist it, leaving only a handful of mons to check him. Tyranitar and Specially defensive Jirachi are the only safe answers to the dragon, seeing as Ferrothorn and Scizor are OHKO'ed by HP fire. Even then, Tyranitar won't enjoy taking repeated Specs Surfs and can only pursuit if latios has just used Meteor (however most smart people won't spam it until they kill Ttar). If you did not have a dark type to pursuit Latios, it would slowly demolish your team with his absurd STAB and 130 SpA. Let's not even talk about Calm Mind sets which could setup on practically any special attacker. There may have been power creep in 5th gen but Latios is still too much for OU.

Brightpowder- I'm surprised this didn't get banned in earlier generations. It really serves no competitive purpose and turns every game into a dice roll. Sure, sometimes it does absolutely nothing, but all it takes is one lucky miss and it can turn the game completely around. While it may not be "broken" in traditional terms, it should be banned for the same reason Double Team/Minimize was banned.
 

Fireburn

BARN ALL
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I'll be applying for special apps again. (Why not?) I focused more on using more team styles than actually ladder-climbing to get a better feel for everything so that's why I'm nowhere up there. :P

Blaziken-
Speed Boost definitely broke this thing. Its powerful offenses make switching in anything difficult, so its easy to garner enough boosts so that it becomes impossible to revenge kill just by forcing switches or using Protect. He literally only has one "counter" in Slowbro and even that dies to a boosted Thunderpunch or Hidden Power Electric, and everything else dies to his stupidly powerful selection of base 120+ power STABS, including Fire Blast, Hi Jump Kick, and Flare Blitz, which just get even more powerful in the sunlight. Furthermore, he has a wide variety of options to run as coverage moves and can go physical, special, or mixed, so you never know what to switch in, and its bulky enough to survive most priority. It is pretty much impossible to build a team that isn't weak to this thing in some way, and it definitely needs to go.

Thundurus- This thing reminds me of Darkrai in that it is nigh guaranteed to cripple two things every match. One is with his powerful 111/125 attacking stats and enormous movepool, and the other is with priority Thunder Wave to ruin the foe's revenge killer. Seriously, nothing walls this thing, especially with access to such a wide movepool and Nasty Plot, and anything faster that isn't Scarf Garchomp or Excadrill in the sand is getting borked by Prankster TWave. This thing is just way too difficult to fight off, no watter what kind of team you're using.

Drizzle
- I never liked the ideas of combo banning as I feel it is too easy to abuse the concept to make it fit to a lot of different things, and I don't like the idea of trying to force Pokemon to become OU, but that is besides to point. I still think Drizzle is too powerful of a weather. Poiltoed is actually quite hard to kill thanks to its respectable bulk and STAB Hydro Pump in rain, and you do pretty much have to run a counter weather if you don't want Tornadus, Thundurus, and Starmie smashing through your team like wet tissue paper with their bolstered moves. Most Water-types can simply power through their old counters in rain such as Empoleon and Starmie, Thundurus becomes even more of a turd with access to STAB never miss 120 BP STAB (as well as Tornadus), and defensive Pokemon previously tough to kill such as Ferrothorn become REALLY hard to kill. Its just a big mess and I don't think its healthy for the metagame.

(I love abusing Reuniclus too much to nom him sorry. :P)
 
Hopefully, another special app user. Here we go. Nom nom nom...

Blaziken: Earlier posts covered him pretty well. Speed Boost really pushes him over the top when he has such a plethora of powerful STABs. Throw on whatever filler and this guy goes to work. His versatility and unpredictability makes you keep your fingers crossed when switching in the appropriate "counter" because he covers such a wide portion of the meta. This is especially problematic for offensive teams because once he get's rolling with a couple of boosts, it's pretty much gg unless you have priority. If he's got Protect, then he just sets up in your face and easily proceeds to sweep late game. It's good to see him getting more noms after mine being like one of two last round.

Drizzle: Rain just seems to be in a different tier than sun or sand. There are just too many threats that can capitalize on cloudy forecasts, most of which already have very high speed like the genies and Starmie. STAB Thunder and Hurricane don't have perfect accuracy for a reason and their sheer power consistently 2HKOs resists, reminiscent of Kingdra's Pump. Water is just too good of a typing both offensively and defensively to be bolstered by perma-weather.

Wobbuffet (spelling?): His bulk and the all-encompassing Shadow Tag ability put him on a higher level than any other trapper. It's almost unfair that when played correctly this guy practically guarantees a free kill of choice. Ubs.

Sand Veil/Snow Cloak: You know the deal. Evasion clause should be extended to cover this as well as Brightpowder/Lax Incense. These items and abilities serve no constructive purpose other than creating free misses, which are often game-breaking in the case of Chomp. Maximizing hax disrupts competitive play.

Other than that, it's shaping up to be a very nice meta, though it's tough to gauge whether Latios and Rankurusu belong in OU when such drastic adaptations have been made to handle them. Admittedly great pokes, they do have some hard counters right now and don't possess the versatility to work around them.
 

Texas Cloverleaf

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Items
Brightpowder/Lax Incense

Viewing it the way Evasion Clause should be worded imo, Brightpowder and Lax Incense should be banned because they`re only purpose is to directly induce evasion, as with Double Team et al.

Abilites
No suspects.

I have given my reasons for this in the Sand Veil thread but Sand Veil does not actively induce hax, it is simply a byproduct or a weather and as such, neither violates Evasion Clause, nor is broken.

Pokemon
No suspects.

Despite all the bitching that has been going on this is the most fun and balanced metagame I have ever played. Now that people know how to deal with individual weathers they can come up with strategies to nullify each weathers attempt to sweep and as such, each weather keeps itself in check. Excadrill, as I have said many times before is not a true sweeper to my eyes but simply the best cleaner ever. Blazekin is hard countered by Slowbro and hard checked by Skarmory, and can be defeated by simply attacking on the turn it comes in. Reuniclus is no longer particularly widespread and people know how to deal with it better now, similar to Blazekin, simply hit it with a strong attack ASAP. Latios is no longer overly prevalent and people know how to deal with it now.

A note on Latios. I have seen many,many people complain that Latios forces people to run specific pokemon. The fact is that is blatantly untrue. I ran many teams this past period and found that Latios was set-up fodder after coming in. As KOes are somewhat infrequent at the start of the match Latios is usually coming in later in the game. At that point one can simply sacrfice the pokemon with the least utilty and bring in a pokemon to sweep away the remnants of the opposing team. Essentially, you can either counter it or use it to set up and as such is not broken.



I believe that those two cents cover all the discussed suspects. I will reiterate that this is actually a very diverse metagame where many playstyles can thrive in, including stall, as Meru ranking in the top 15 proves.
 

Death Phenomeno

I'm polite so just for clarity, when I'm cross I
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Copied & pasted (& edited) from last time:

Lati@s - Some people compare them to Hydreigon, but these 2 have advantages over it. These 2 are faster, have a better movepool, and their typing is enough for them to have a different niche. While Latias may have a weaker Draco Meteor, her speed makes up for it. These 2 may be weak to Pursuit, but they resist Mach Punch (and Vacuum Wave and Aqua Jet), which is currently a very big deal.

Sand Veil / Snow Cloak / BrightPowder / Lax Incense - Thanks to the Dream World, now the whole argument that said something like "we can't ban these abilities since certain Pokémon have it as their only ability!" is no longer valid. Thus, we can have a complete Evasion Clause. As for the items, I personally feel that there's a double standard for them, but that's just me. The only problem with this would be having to say goodbye to Froslass, Beartic, Sandslash, Cacturne, and Garchomp until they get released. Also, their movepools (and Glaceon's as well) would have to be trimmed. This "hax" can be completely averted so, as someone who has lost many battles due to a 100% accurate move missing by something completely avoidable, I believe it should.
 
Brightpowder / Lax Incense:I'm willing to say that these two items should be molded into evasion clause. Sure, Sand Veil/Snow Cloak have 2.5x the evasion boost, but you can't put those abilities on any pokemon now can you. I really don't think the abilities should be banned, since Hail is almost non-existent, and Sand Veil only has one common "abuser".
 

forestflamerunner

Ain't no rest for the wicked
Nominations

Blaziken:speed Boost made this thing way too boss. it can switch in on a grass type or a slow steel, such as celebi or scizor, and SD. with Speed Boost, it is at +2 +1. at this point, your options for countering the thing are significantly limited. slowbro is arguably the best counter, but are easily taken out by hp electric or T punch, while scarfchomp and lati@s are taken out by an hp ice. in the sun, it hits like a fuckin truck, and your only option is to wait for residual damage to wear it down.

Excadrill: pretty much forces you to use one of four walls or mach punch. if it gets a switch in on say, choice locked DM, it can get a sword dance and you are pretty much fucked. imo, it should have been gone last round. lets get it right this time.

I am in favor of not banning drizzle or drought. the fact that both of them are up as suspects indicates to me that neither one is strictly overpowering. admittably, i have played about two matches where wheather wasn't up, but each wheather seems to have several abusers to provide some variety and ttar really isn't that difficult to fit on a team if you want a weather inducer of your own.
 
Also confirming as a special app user.

Brightpowder / Lax Incense: These items do not promote competitive play in any form, break the evasion clause and is all around just a part of the game that I'm sure no one can agree to keeping around with good reason.

Blaziken: As much as I love to abuse this thing; even I know it's broken. I don't say that about too much Pokemon and generally support minimal bans but this thing has one counter and no checks because of Speed Boost. It decimates teams once it gets a Swords Dance which it can easily set up on a number of Pokemon despite it's frailty. It honestly need to go.

I also agree with Thorhammer's nomination to repeal Manaphy's ban and replace it with a Manaphy + Drizzle ban. We've never tested it in a non Drizzle metagame and Drizzle was the main problem with it in the first place. At the very least it should be retested.
 

B-Lulz

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k nominations

Drizzle: Oh boy, Drizzle is so easy to use and it is in my opinion even worse than it was in r2, since everyone learned how to abuse it better. Tornadus and Thundurus in rain are kinda ridiculous, so are Sharpedo and Azumarill, both of whom have literally 2 counters. Unless you are an idiot it pretty much beats every other weather type barring Hail maybe(Tornadus takes a shit on sun teams so long as you have rain up which isnt so hard against sun)and i think its just ridiculously easy to employ and do well with.

Latios: Yeah I think this have some kind of resemblance to the Latias ban of gen 4 where it just meant ScarfTar was everywhere, and now we are seeing it with Sp.Def Jirachi...even then jirachi is not the hardest pokemon to defeat in the metagame and Latios just craps on pretty much everything else, so I think its broken in that regard. Should have been banned r1 imo but oh well.

Blaziken: Yep, I want this thing gone. Really easy to set up with, bring it in on a Ferrothorn or Jirachi, they are forced to predict or lose a lot of the time, which is kinda ridiculous in my opinion. No-one brings up a Work Up set but it beats the vast majority of its main counters, for instance Slowbro is KO'd after rocks and a Work Up'd Hidden Power. Latias and Gyarados are probably the best counters to the thing but they are both susceptible to being trapped and KO'd. Blaziken even without Sun is a bastard. With Sun it is an utter nightmare.
 
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