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Project OU Theorymon [Voting: Check Post #3272]

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Mega Audino + Simple
This seems pretty interesting to me. It gives it an advantage over clefable, as it can win calm mind wars much more easily, and only needs a few boosts to start doing damage. It's bulk is also very nice for setting up CMs. It can also heal itself with wish, which is pretty nice.

Mega Camerupt + Energy Ball
Honestly, I don't really like this one. Energy Ball does give it some additional coverage, allowing it to hit AV Azumarill and Rotom-W, but it's going to still be walled by Latias and the blobs. Energy Ball also doesn't fix it's problem of being slow, so once it gets a hit on something, it'll just have to switch out, or get revenge killed. Energy Ball also takes a lot more prediction to use, because if you mispredict, camerupt is basically dead due to it's slow speed. This thing could be really dangerous on trick room though.

Probopass + Levitate
This seems pretty cool to me. Levitate gets rid of it's 4x ground weakness, allowing it to wall mons like mamoswine and landorus-t. Probopass also has really high defensive stats allowing it to wall most dragons in OU, such as garchomp and latios. It also has a slow volt switch allowing it to get a frail sweeper in. Probably my favorite.

Registeel + Unaware
Kind of iffy on this one. Registeel has really amazing defensive stats, but is really passive and lacks recovery. Most mons with substitute can easily beat it. It could serve as a decent one time check to lots of setup sweepers, with it's insane bulk and t-wave, but as others have said, it's kind of messing up the regi trio by giving registeel one ability, and the other ones different abilities.
 
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Simple sounds quite interesting, but I can't see it being that good. Sure you can get to +2/+2 with Calm Mind, but it's still going to be pretty passive, those attacks coming off base 80 Spa aren't going to hurt that much, especially without investment. I'm not too sure on it, but anything is better than Healer

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Energy Ball does help a lot with Water type switch ins
It nets the KO on Belly Drum Azumarill, Rotom-W, Physically Defensive Alomomola, Slowbro/Mega Slowbro (after SR/Spikes) and Keldeo which is huge for it since Water types screw it over a lot. Not sure about this one either though

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Levitate is pretty nice as it allows Probopass to wall Lando-T (without Superpower), Mega Altaria, Landorus-I, Mega Pinsir (without CC), Aerodactyl, Diggersby, Gliscor, Hippowdon, Mamoswine (without Superpower), Tyranitar, Dragonite. Latios, Garchomp and Heatran
On top of that it has a pretty good support movepool of Taunt, SR, Twave, Magic Coat and Volt Switch. I'm more inclined towards this one over the others though

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Unaware is a great ability, but no recovery hurts Registeel
On top of that most setup sweepers carry a Fire/Ground/Fighting move which means it's going to get worn down quickly and, again, the lack of recovery really hurts it here. It's really passive aswell, unlike Clefable or Quagsire, and the only way it deals decent damage is through Seismic Toss
 
Simple Mega Audino: I'm not sure about this one, to me, Audino works better as a cleric thanks to its access to Wish and Heal Bell, giving it simple seems unecessary, especially considering how slow it is. It is still better than healer though.

Energy Ball Camerupt: While finally being able to hit Water Types with a super effective move is nice, i don't think it will help Mega Camerupt a lot, mostly because of how slow it is. I can see it getting more use in doubles thanks to Trick Room though.

Levitate Probopass: I really like this one, i can see it getting a lot more use thanks to levitate, and being able to wall pokemon such as Garchomp and Dragonite is really useful.

Unaware Registeel: Can't really say anything about this one since i never used Registeel before.
 
I'd say it's probably between Camerupt and Probopass for me. Definitely not our strongest slate, and I'm not jazzed about this one. Camerupt would be able to screw offense thoroughly on a TR team, but Probopass requires absolutely zero support to function well, and I see people actually forgoing a STAB move for a set of SR/Volt Switch/HP Ice/T-Wave so that it can actually KO the things it needs to KO. Obviously you can change the attacking move, but SR/Volt-Switch/T-Wave seem absolutely mandatory to me.

I do think that people are writing Registeel off a little. It still has ResTalk for recovery, and anything that can't 3HKO it simply can't break through it. Yes, it's passive, but it has the ability to T-Wave switch ins, and you can Toxic stall things really well.

Audino--no. I didn't like it when it was submitted, and I still don't like it. Possibly a little bias because I'm waiting a while before we slate Regenerator Mega Audino (unless someone finds a better ability for it), but it's not going to take OU by storm. It's still going to stay a second-rate Mega Evolution. EDIT: I'll elaborate why I dislike it. It costs you a mega slot for basically a crappier Clefable. It has an inferior ability, inferior move pool, and is COMPLETELY shut down by Unaware users. It's not going to be good.
 
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Yeah registeel is a weird one. It has multiple flaws that prevent it from being a good check to set up sweepers like the other unaware users, but it would has its own niche at being quite a unique toxic staller. Like I said before I used to use a set of Iron Defence, Amnesia, Rest and Toxic to what was actually some really nice success with Dugtrio support to kill steels and poisons. I believe that Unaware would be quite beneficial to this set and various other toxic stall sets that are a bit less gimmicky, as set up wars arent a problem. It would likely be one of the best toxic stallers alongside gliscor. But is that enough? Its definitely unique.
 
Isa Simple said:
Yeah registeel is a weird one. It has multiple flaws that prevent it from being a good check to set up sweepers like the other unaware users, but it would has its own niche at being quite a unique toxic staller. Like I said before I used to use a set of Iron Defence, Amnesia, Rest and Toxic to what was actually some really nice success with Dugtrio support to kill steels and poisons. I believe that Unaware would be quite beneficial to this set and various other toxic stall sets that are a bit less gimmicky, as set up wars arent a problem. It would likely be one of the best toxic stallers alongside gliscor. But is that enough? Its definitely unique.
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Problem is that's complete taunt bait and useless against steels, poisons and quite a few other mon. This set honestly seems more gimmicky than anything else and I wouldn't use it as an argument for this theorymon.
 
Tbh this slate this slate seems kinda bad to me.
I don't know Why people keep saying that energy ball makes camerupt able to beat its only check in offense, well maybe it's true that it gives a reliable way to beat it but holy fuck fire blast already 2HKOs with rocks up (252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 131-155 (43 - 50.9%) -- 55.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery). Camerupt's real problems are others and energy ball doesn't solve any of them.
Levitate makes probopass able to wall many dragons and ground type, however i'm not sure if this actually Will be able to work, nearly everything has access to superpower or focus blast so i'm not sure about this. Simple gives audino a niche over other fairies, but probably other CMers are still better because of better typing/better movepool/better recovery/not taunt bait (mega sableye).
Registeel seems the more appealing to me here. While the lack of recovery hurts, its incredible mixed bulk can mitigate it and a resttalk set seems the best to me. However it does have flaws: it is passive as fuck and any powerful attacker with a supereffective move can easily break through it, furthermore it is completely shut down by taunt.
 
Simple Mega Audino: My favorite of the bunch. Simple + Calm Mind makes Mega Audino a much faster-paced Calm Mind user than the likes of Clefable and Suicune, meaning it doesn't have to spend as many turns setting up. One of the flaws of being a Calm Mind user is the fact that it takes a while to get the ball rolling, but Simple will make 6 turns-worth of setup into 3 turns-worth, so that's not only breaking through walls quicker, but that's also punishing switches more greatly as you setup.

Also, I can understand the comparisons to Clefable, who doesn't have a Normal typing, has Magic Guard, recovery that's more reliable than Wish, more Special Attack, and isn't a Mega Evolution. However, the fast-paced nature of Simple Mega Audino can easily outweigh Clefable's extra power, and Mega Audino's 106 / 126 / 126 defenses are incomparably better than Clefable's 95 / 73 / 90 defenses. But I find the comparisons between the two to be a bit unfair, something along the lines of comparing Dragon Dance Mega Altaria to Dragon Dance Mega Charizard X; they're similar, but they're also noticeably different. While they can perform the same set, it's hard to call one a "superior" Calm Minder, just because of how different they are. They're both Calm Mind sweepers, yes, but one's faster paced and has sturdier defenses, and the other has Magic Guard, very reliable recovery, and a better defensive typing. I'm voting or this not purely because I think it'd be a good Theorymon, but also because I want to see how well (Or poorly. I could be completely wrong.) it will set itself apart from Clefable.

Energy Ball Camerupt: This doesn't really fix Mega Camerupt's problems much. On one hand, it can get past Rotom-W now. On the other hand, it still gets outsped by it, so it only matters on the switch. It also doesn't change the fact that checking Mega Camerupt is still super easy, it's slow as hell, isn't as powerful or bulky as one would first think, and the opportunity cost to using it is still rather high. It's a step in the right direction, but it's only a baby step.

Levitate Probopass: I'm not a big fan of this one. This thing doesn't care about Landorus-T as much, and only has to worry about Superpower variants, and also doesn't care about Diggersby and Excadrill either, giving it some form of a defensive presence. It also has Thunder Wave to cripple sweepers, Volt Switch to maintain momentum, and Pain Split for pseudo recovery if you're into that kind of thing, so it's not all bad. But its weaknesses to Water- and Fighting-type moves are still a big deal, so things like Keldeo, Azumarill, Mega Gallade, Mega Lopunny, Landorus (Yes, I'm counting Focus Miss), Mega Pinsir, Rotom-W, Mega Heracross, and Terrakion are still going to be huge problems, and lacking truly reliable recovery is a big problem for a defensive Pokemon.

Unaware Registeel: I would love to make Registeel OU viable, I really would, but I just don't think this is the right way to go about it. We have Clefable and Quagsire, the two Unaware users that we see in OU. Wanna know what they have that Registeel doesn't? Reliable recovery. ResTalk is a thing, but for something that's supposed to switch in/out and take hits repeatedly, this is a very limited recovery option. Registeel also has no offensive potential, as 75 / 75 offenses are pretty garbage. But combine these with 3 common and exploitable weaknesses, an inability to damage Steel-types, and a glaring vulnerability to Taunt, and you'll find that Unaware is heavily outweighed by its flaws.

Also wow, I rarely type that much here. :p
 
Froggyboy said:
May I ask what outclasses Levitate Probopass?

69th post lol
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Bronzong. It pretty much walls everything that Levitate Probopass walls, maybe except Tyranitar. It has more offensive presence which manages to break Subs of stuff like Mega Latias, Altaria and stuff; beats Metagross if you are lucky with Meteor Mash atk raises; is not weak to Water or Fighting type which are like super common; beats Focus Blast Mega Gardevoir, Landorus-I etc; Sure Bronzong doesn't have Volt Switch, but it still practically outclasses Probopass in every other way imaginable.
 
Askeia said:
Bronzong. It pretty much walls everything that Levitate Probopass walls, maybe except Tyranitar. It has more offensive presence which manages to break Subs of stuff like Mega Latias, Altaria and stuff; beats Metagross if you are lucky with Meteor Mash atk raises; is not weak to Water or Fighting type which are like super common; beats Focus Blast Mega Gardevoir, Landorus-I etc; Sure Bronzong doesn't have Volt Switch, but it still practically outclasses Probopass in every other way imaginable.
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There are quite a few dragons that run fire coverage such as garchomp which are walled by probopass and not bronzong. Saying it is out classed by bronzong because it is weak to the common water and fighting is iffy given that fire is common too and koff is probablly one of the most common coverage move in the game. Probopass has noticably better bulk. One other small thing that is still worth mentioning is that probo resists U-turn.

So there are those little things, but the main thing that probopass has over bronzong is thunder wave, allowing it to cripple sweepers of all sorts. While gyro ball is strong, there are water, fire , electrics and steels everywhere.

Also how does Bronzong beat Mega Metagross?
 
Isa Simple said:
There are quite a few dragons that run fire coverage such as garchomp which are walled by probopass and not bronzong. Saying it is out classed by bronzong because it is weak to the common water and fighting is iffy given that fire is common too and koff is probablly one of the most common coverage move in the game. Probopass has noticably better bulk. One other small thing that is still worth mentioning is that probo resists U-turn.

So there are those little things, but the main thing that probopass has over bronzong is thunder wave, allowing it to cripple sweepers of all sorts. While gyro ball is strong, there are water, fire , electrics and steels everywhere.

Also how does Bronzong beat Mega Metagross?
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4 SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 88-104 (26 - 30.7%) -- 1.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (132 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 135-160 (37.8 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Bronzong still wins just saying. Point being while Bronzong can't take as many hits as Probopass, it -does not- need to take as many hits as Probopass anyway since it takes less hits to KO in return.

Other than Landorus-T, practically every other user of Knock Off usually has either water coverage (Tentacruel/Crawdaunt/Azumarill), or Fighting coverage.

And @ the metagross thing, Bronzong has Earthquake and commonly runs it, and resists everything Metagross ever runs.
 
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Kurona said:
So wait, shouldn't this technically make this an Other Metagame and moved to that forum?
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This is an Other Metagame and there has been a discussion in OM's about this for a while, but it's just more convenient to have it here as it's based around OU and only makes minor changes.
 
first off all out off the 4 theorymon i can say without a doubt that camerupt will still be ASS. giving it energy ball dosnt solve any off its main problems, which are little to no speed, medicore defenses, and a double weakness to one of the most common types in ou, while taking up a mega slot and being outclassed by other fire type megas such as charizards and houndoom.
 
Askeia said:
Bronzong. It pretty much walls everything that Levitate Probopass walls, maybe except Tyranitar. It has more offensive presence which manages to break Subs of stuff like Mega Latias, Altaria and stuff; beats Metagross if you are lucky with Meteor Mash atk raises; is not weak to Water or Fighting type which are like super common; beats Focus Blast Mega Gardevoir, Landorus-I etc; Sure Bronzong doesn't have Volt Switch, but it still practically outclasses Probopass in every other way imaginable.
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I wouldn't say in every way possible. While Probopass is weak to Water and Fighting, Bronzong is weak to Dark and Ghost, which is also common. Some of the new megas suck for it, but Probopass does a better time walling other megas and OU pokemon, like Mega-Altaria, Mega Beedrill, Mega Pidgeot, Mega Garchomp, Diggersby, and Landorus-T more reliably than Bronzong, since their coverage moves hit Bronzong and not Probopass.
 
Askeia said:
4 SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 88-104 (26 - 30.7%) -- 1.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (132 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 135-160 (37.8 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Bronzong still wins just saying. Point being while Bronzong can't take as many hits as Probopass, it -does not- need to take as many hits as Probopass anyway since it takes less hits to KO in return.
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Main issue I, does this comparison account for Rough Skin Damage?Bronzong would be hit by 2 rounds of it before either side goes down, which equates to 24% of its HP. That about equates to 102% minimum, not accounting for higher rolls, additional damage prior, or other residual like Burns. Granted, I agree Bronzong deals with most of the same stuff anyway, but I'm not sure the Garchomp example is the best way to show it.

For me, it's probably going to be Mega Audino on this slate, but there's a trend I notice with this particular set of 4, including it: They all need more than one thing to fix their issues, some not within Theorymon rules to give them
- Audino appreciates the better ability, but its typing is hurt by being Normal, and it lacks reliable recovery compared to its main competition (I feel like it competes more with Mega Sableye than Clefable)
- Camerupt's big issue is his speed, which is why he has to rely so heavily on prediction to beat things. Unlike most mons, Camerupt can be checked by a lot of things if they can stomach 1-2 hits, instead of 2-3. Energy Ball helps with Bulky Waters, but he still has to nail them switching in.
- Probopass is supposed to be a bulky utility mon, but his typing gives him some problematic weaknesses, or costs him some resistances, and the lack of reliable recovery means he can only switch in for utility so many times, especially since he doesn't have the greatest offensive presence.
- Registeel: He's got great mixed bulk, but he's inherently inferior to other Unaware users since he lacks recovery (which is important since Unaware users have to be able to come in a lot), and is hard stopped by Steel and even Poison types due to Toxic dependency: Clefable can Calm Mind alongside the opponent, while having other moves to exploit like Fire blast or Stored Power, and Quagsire has arguably better typing as well as Earthquake for decent offenses and Scald to burn the opponent, which has the chance to cripple the opponent to the point non-UA users can handle them even.

The reason I like Audino the best is because its main problems set it back, but don't immediately leave it outclassed with this change. I'd still pick
- Zard-Y over Camerupt
- Bronzong, Heatran, Ferrothorn, or Jirachi over Probopass
- Quagsire or Clefable over Registeel

Clefable is an obvious comparison as a slow Fairy CM user, but I feel like a more relevant comparison is Sableye. Sableye has an even better defensive typing, presents more utility before and after going Mega, is harder to cripple thanks to Magic Bounce, and has better Recovery, not to mention shared competition for the Mega Slot. My assessment
- Clefable is a bulky booster that helps serve as an emergency check or win condition to several things
- Sableye is a multi-purpose utility mon that includes CM Win-Con among those uses
- Audino is chosen if the team wants a win condition that can get to that point as quickly as possible, at the cost of being more limited to that function.

Audino would be the fastest CM booster of the 3 for Stall teams, which is a notable niche considering Stall Teams never want to offer set up chances if they don't have to. Audino's own Base 80 Sp. Atk is comparable to Sableye's, as are their main Base 80 STAB, and it can boost even faster. I still think Sableye would be preferable, but this would give Audino a definitive niche: The quickest to action of the CM users that Stall can run. Considering how fast it can boost, it might even be able to afford Dual-Fairy moves
CM/Dazzling Gleam/Draining Kiss/Wish|Heal Bell.
At +6, Draining Kiss might be worth SOMETHING to grab a bit of health back from walled targets, while Dazzling Gleam is reserved for the bulkier targets with their own recovery. Like I said, not a big niche (I'd give it C+ at most), but finally some reason to be picked over the others.
 
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Froggyboy said:
I wouldn't say in every way possible. While Probopass is weak to Water and Fighting, Bronzong is weak to Dark and Ghost, which is also common. Some of the new megas suck for it, but Probopass does a better time walling other megas and OU pokemon, like Mega-Altaria, Mega Beedrill, Mega Pidgeot, Mega Garchomp, Diggersby, and Landorus-T more reliably than Bronzong, since their coverage moves hit Bronzong and not Probopass.
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Mega Altaria what? Bronzong cleanly 2HKOs it after it Dragon Dances, Probopass takes a high roll on Flash Cannon to even break its sub? Probopass walls it better? Probopass will easily let Altaria get to +6 while Bronzong would just beat it outright. As for Diggersby, only 22% of them (i.e. most likely the scarf ones) ever run Knock Off. Yes Lando-T runs KOff but Scarfed ones run Superpower too, and defensive sets prefer Stone Edge over KOff, so we can't exactly say Probo walls Lando-T better. Lol who uses Mega Pidgeot? Even so, Probopass fails to deal more than 40% to Pidgeot so it can always Roost back up. Bronzong can cleanly 2HKO it before it gets 3HKOed by Heat Wave. Yes Bronzong can't take as many hits from Beedril than Probopass, but it can still take 2 hits from it, and OHKO in return. Who uses Mega Garchomp? On the other hand, anything that can sub totally shits on Probopass and can easily sweep your team. I rather have Landorus-T KO my Bronzong than having Mega Latias/Altaria, setting up all over Probopass and sweeping my team.

tldr; They largely check the same stuff, but stuff that Probopass checks but not Bronzong would kill Bronzong at best; stuff that Bronzong checks but not Probopass could potentially kill your team.
 
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