Project OU Theorymon [Voting: Check Post #3272]

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Umbreon + Unaware
To be honest, I don't really like this one. Sure, it does give a niche over other clerics and wishpassers like Chansey, as it doesn't care about boosting moves, but it still faces lots of competition from unaware clefable. Clefable gets calm mind, allowing it to act as a decent win condition, while both have unaware, can pass wishes, and can be clerics.

Pangoro + Sucker Punch
This seems pretty cool. Pangoro could run a set like gunk shot / sucker punch / substitute / focus punch or drain punch. Sub on a switch, and then force them to attack you, and then go for sucker punch, or focus punch. Sucker Punch also remedies panda's low speed, allowing it to play lots of mind games with pokemon like starmie and the lati twins. Probably my favorite.

Shuckle + Moldbreaker
Shuckle in ORAS sucks because of mega sableye, which completely shuts it down and uses it as set up bait. But now with moldbreaker, shuckle ignores magic bounce, allowing it to set up SR and sticky web. This basically makes shuckle the only viable sticky web user, since galvantula and smeargle can't beat mega sableye 1v1.

Mega Latios + Speed Boost
Oh boy, this is so frickin broken. You can just run a simple boosting set with calm mind, roost, sub and stored power, come in on something that can't touch you, gather a few speed boosts, and set up CMs everywhere, and sweep with stored power. At +2, mega latios can pretty much outspeed the entire metagame, and combined with it's decent bulk and possible CM boosts, this is going to be really scary. Of course it still needs to get rid of dark types to sweep, but that shouldn't be too hard if you build a team around it. Not voting for this one, as this is broken as hell.
 
Actually, one more point in Umbreon's favor: Umbreon would be a huge boon to any team that relies on defog or sticky web support, since it completely walls Bisharp.
 
Enigami said:
Actually, one more point in Umbreon's favor: Umbreon would be a huge boon to any team that relies on defog or sticky web support, since it completely walls Bisharp.
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No, not really.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 333-394 (84.5 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 165-195 (60.6 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

unaware lol
i knew that
 
Unaware Umbreon seems really annoying.

Im really liking Mold breaker Shuckle, since it's the only one on the slate that actually revives a play style, in this case sticky webs offense.

Pangoro wouldnt mind priority, so it's defo a good (if slighty boring) improvment.

#lolspeedboostonapokelikelatios
 
I'm not thinking Mega Latios is broken, just strong. Look at it like this: Mega Latios essentially has three moveslots because it is going to have to run Protect for boosts. I'm not sure how the mechanics work, but does it have Speed Boost the turn it mega evolves? I don't think it does but someone should clarify x_x. The thing is, it's going to want to run Calm Mind and then it's down to two slots. This thing is walled by any of Heatran, Tyranitar, Clefable, or Metagross. These Pokemon are all common and wall the CM + 2 attack set. It can't really run through everything like Blaziken can because it doesn't have a good STAB convo and its coverage is lacking. It's just really strong, but I don't think Ubers worthy.
 
unfixable said:
I'm not thinking Mega Latios is broken, just strong. Look at it like this: Mega Latios essentially has three moveslots because it is going to have to run Protect for boosts. I'm not sure how the mechanics work, but does it have Speed Boost the turn it mega evolves? I don't think it does but someone should clarify x_x. The thing is, it's going to want to run Calm Mind and then it's down to two slots. This thing is walled by any of Heatran, Tyranitar, Clefable, or Metagross. These Pokemon are all common and wall the CM + 2 attack set. It can't really run through everything like Blaziken can because it doesn't have a good STAB convo and its coverage is lacking. It's just really strong, but I don't think Ubers worthy.
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Sorry to break it to you, but Latios does not need to run Protect. It's got good bulk for a sweeper and finds a whole lot of opportunities to switch in. CM + Dragon Pulse / Draco + Psyshock + EQ / HP Fire is a deadly combination. Imagine if regular Latios, after one messed up turn, could outspeed Mega Metagross, Houndoom and certain Scarfers. Because that's basically what is is.
 
Why on earth would something with 80/100/120 defences want to run protect? This isn't Blaziken we're talking about here; it can take a hit or two and has a sizeable amount of resistances. Run it with Calm Mind and it essentially quiver dances the first turn and proceeds to sweep.
It's walled by Clefable? Sure I suppose, but Blaziken was absolutely bodied by Talonflame, Azumarill, would be bodied by Mega Altaria and arguably by Aegislash. Just because it can't mow down every single thing in the game does not make it not broken.
 
Okay, then instead of Protect, it runs Sub. It's STILL down to two moveslots. But wait--you want Roost? It's now one moveslot. Not to mention that it's still susceptible to priority, and Unaware Clef shits all over it. Would it be very strong? Absolutely. I'm not ready to call broken yet.
 
Why is it even bothering to sub? It can switch in on plenty of OU pokes to get the boost without even wasting a slot on Protect/Sub.

Stef0w said:
Unaware Umbreon seems really annoying.

Im really liking Mold breaker Shuckle, since it's the only one on the slate that actually revives a play style, in this case sticky webs offense.
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I'm not sure, I'm starting to think Unaware Umbreon would do just that better than Shuckle can. Again, Stall doesn't care about webs, so I don't think Sableye is the reason why Sticky Web isn't used anymore. I'd say the biggest problem is Bisharp, whose mere presence makes webs a huge liability.
 
Sun King said:
Okay, then instead of Protect, it runs Sub. It's STILL down to two moveslots. But wait--you want Roost? It's now one moveslot. Not to mention that it's still susceptible to priority, and Unaware Clef shits all over it. Would it be very strong? Absolutely. I'm not ready to call broken yet.
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It doesn't have to run anything. It forces plenty of Pokémon in OU out just with its presence. It could easily not run Roost and it doesn't have to run sub. It has freaking amazing bulk and can take so many hits before going down.
This would probably be the best set. As Kurona said, it gets a free Quiver Dance when it uses Calm Mind.

Latios-Mega (M) @ Latiosite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
- Dragon Pulse / Draco Meteor
- Calm Mind / Roost
- Earthquake
- Psyshock
 
Sun King said:
Okay, then instead of Protect, it runs Sub. It's STILL down to two moveslots. But wait--you want Roost? It's now one moveslot. Not to mention that it's still susceptible to priority, and Unaware Clef shits all over it. Would it be very strong? Absolutely. I'm not ready to call broken yet.
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Wait, I thought unaware doesn't ignore stored power's base power, it only ignores CM special attack boosts.
The problem is that mega latios really only needs 1 move slot to be functional. It can easily get to +6 +6 +6 on a whole lot of mons, so it doesn't even need that much coverage. Pretty much all it needs is stored power, dark types gone, and then 1 free switch in.

How about we have a vote to decide whether it is broken and should be removed from the slate?
 
Recreant said:
It doesn't have to run anything. It forces plenty of Pokémon in OU out just with its presence. It could easily not run Roost and it doesn't have to run sub. It has freaking amazing bulk and can take so many hits before going down.
This would probably be the best set. As Kurona said, it gets a free Quiver Dance when it uses Calm Mind.

Latios-Mega (M) @ Latiosite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
- Dragon Pulse
- Calm Mind / Roost
- Earthquake
- Psyshock
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That move set is screaming "Bisharp 50/50's and Talonflame pls kill me!"

firehusky said:
Wait, I thought unaware doesn't ignore stored power's base power, it only ignores CM special attack boosts.
The problem is that mega latios really only needs 1 move slot to be functional. It can easily get to +6 +6 +6 on a whole lot of mon, so it doesn't even need that much coverage.

How about we have a vote to decide whether it is broken and should be removed from the slate?
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That one moveslot is completely walled by a single type, depending on which STAB you go with.

Mysteria and I are both in concurrence that we are not ready to remove this from the slate.
 
Sun King said:
That one moveslot is completely walled by a single type, depending on which STAB you go with.
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Remove that one type and you're good to go. Not many teams have more than 1 dark-type.
And as the person above me has said, no one is going to vote for it anyways, since everyone here pretty much believes it is broken.
 
Sun King said:
That move set is screaming "Bisharp 50/50's and Talonflame pls kill me!"
.
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252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Latios: 235-277 (78 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
ok
Bisharp dies to EQ and has like a 60% to kill with Sucker
Seriously. Don't remove it. But nobody will vote for it.

EDIT: Oh, and also, Clefable isn't on every freaking team. People use that excuse that "Unaware Clefable shit on it" but if you don't have a Clefable on your team, you lose. That's so over-centralizing that it's not even funny. It's broken, so stop being stubborn and take it off. I'm sorry for being so rude, but I can't believe you don't see how absolutely broken this is.
 
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I really don't have an opinion on it since I haven't thought of it and only agreed with slating it because we were in dire need, but I don't want to remove it from our slate for other reasons unrelated to its power.

Enigami said:
Eh, it doesn't matter. No one is going to vote for it anyway.
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yo please just do not go ahead with a smartass attitude like that, thanks
 
Tbh, I don't even think latios really needs to invest in speed or special attack. Just go with full HP and full defense to take priority hits better. With a few calm mind boosts under it's belt, it can hit hard even without investment. Speed doesn't really matter either, since at +2 it basically outspeeds everything relevant.
 
Mysteria said:
yo please just do not go ahead with a smartass attitude like that, thanks
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Sorry, probably could've rephrased that. I was meaning to say that all of the arguing over whether or not it was broken might not be relevant, since its not exactly a popular slate.
 
Regardless, I think Mold Breaker Shuckle will be absolutely great in OU. Being able to just LOL at M-Sableye as it sets hazards and spams Toxic is already enough of a niche. It's definitely an improvement over Sturdy, as nothing hits it hard enough to make Sturdy a factor. You could actually use Shuckle to trap and kill Sableye with Infestation + Toxic. Obviously Sableyes won't stay in on it, but it would be pretty hilarious, and Shuckle alone could remove defensive cores if played correctly. I'm a huge fan of it.
 
Hey yall, ik this is still deep into discussion of the to Speed Boost or to not, just gonna mention something real quick.


I can understand the comlaints and everything as we've seen this once before in similar vein to Mega Chomp as stated previously. If it comes down to it, we will remove it and just have it act as three to vote on instead of four. I wouldnt mind if for a bit that while yes its an easy topic to jump into, nay we please refrain from it and just discuss the other mons on the slate and how they each work in stead of this circle jerk as it isnt getting anything productive done atm more than some people getting hot headed and stating its a bad job. Please if you have complaints just refrain from stating them for a bit as the information atm is most of yall dont like it and as it will, still be discussed in the council like always.


So in other words, please refrain a bit from the speed boost buff complaints and discussion as it is getting ridiculous. If you must, make sure its more than just a simple one liner saying how it doesnt need protect and what not with discussion on the other mons.


Thank yall
 
Again, I don't know. Based on Sableye's use on stall and its usual teammates going by the January usage stats (like Chansey, Clefable, etc), getting past Sableye doesn't help a whole lot.
 
The problem I have with Mold Breaker Shuckle is that it's an extremely match-up dependent buff that doesn't help Shuckle as a whole much at all. It literally lets you set up rocks on one more Pokémon - not even counting the other two magic bouncers because Espeon is only used for cancerpass and Diancie just murders you without remorse - whose pros are honestly incredibly overrated. It seems to be purely the result of trying extremely hard to find a Pokémon who can set up hazards and get past Sableye; but honestly that isn't hard. You could just run Unaware Clefable or something to threaten Sableye out and get your rocks up, or straight up kill the thing. Again, Sticky Web is completely irrelevant because Stall doesn't care about getting it's speed lowered. All in all, this doesn't improve the Pokémon much at all, doesn't greatly improve their presence in the metagame and it's purely the result of Sableye being incredibly overrated. I can't vote for this because it's literally just to slightly get by one Pokémon - not even kill them - and it's a role arguably already done better by other Pokémon.

I'm slowly getting convinced on Umbreon because it's rather like the physical counterpart to Clefable. While Clefable can get her special stats up with unaware and heal off damage, Umbreon can get it's physical stats up -- curse -- with unaware and heal off damage. It also provides a different defensive typing, far better defences and in general offers a different option to the meta. I'm quite the fan of this one; it's going to be a close tie between it and Pangoro not only for me but I think the whole slate tbh.
 
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