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Project OU Theorymon [Voting: Check Post #3272]
- Thread starter bb skarm
- Start date
- Status
Geomancy Sylveon
Honorable Mention: Gastrodon + Poison Heal
Honorable Mention: Gastrodon + Poison Heal
No, the only thing that would remove something from Honorable Mentions is if one of its buffs gets voted through. It would behoove all of you to vote the best option in--not necessarily your favorite.
EDIT: can we please just let Protean Hydreigon wither away and die? We legit just voted Sheer Force Kyurem in. Do people hate Stall THAT MUCH?
Well, yes.
Ground / Fairy Donphan
Honorable Mention: Weak Armor Mega Garchomp
Honorable Mention: Weak Armor Mega Garchomp
People are also voting for Geomancy Sylveon so I can only assume they just plain hate playing OU =P.
ANNOUNCEMENT: Lately, I've been receiving a ton of submissions that involve two buffs. I've turned down nearly (if not completely) all of them. Let me explain why...
I want to see creative buffs on things. I want to see you come up with an out of the box buff that significantly improves something. Perfect case: Weak Armor Mega Garchomp. While yes, I like it because it's my idea, it accomplished a lot with a single buff. It was a way to keep the brokenness of a +1 Speed Mega Chomp in check and contribute another major Mega to the metagame (submitted before the VR rise). It was also an ability that we had never seen on the slate before, so it added a ton to the discussion.
When I opened this project up to multiple buffs, it was intended (and very much still is) to be used SOLELY as a last resort for terrible things. Perfect case: Rotom-Fan with Electric/Steel typing and Flash Cannon (replacing Air Slash in the move pool). Once again, my idea, but easily the best representation of a double buff we've had. It used both buffs to drag it out of the depths of NU. I'm not looking for things that already have a lot going for them (see: things in UU or OU; could make a case for things in RU).
I haven't made any clear cut rules about what can and can't be double buffed because I know that rule is going to be stretched constantly, and it's not worth explaining why we bent the rules over and over. My heuristic surrounding this, though, has always been this:
"Can 'X' Pokemon be OU viable with a single creative buff?"
That's the first thing I say to people when I turn down a double buff. I understand that your mega ultra awesome Darmanitan WOULD be amazing in OU, but I want to see creative thinking over all else. I want to look at the slate and be like, "Shit...that's really cool."
/announce-rant
I want to see creative buffs on things. I want to see you come up with an out of the box buff that significantly improves something. Perfect case: Weak Armor Mega Garchomp. While yes, I like it because it's my idea, it accomplished a lot with a single buff. It was a way to keep the brokenness of a +1 Speed Mega Chomp in check and contribute another major Mega to the metagame (submitted before the VR rise). It was also an ability that we had never seen on the slate before, so it added a ton to the discussion.
When I opened this project up to multiple buffs, it was intended (and very much still is) to be used SOLELY as a last resort for terrible things. Perfect case: Rotom-Fan with Electric/Steel typing and Flash Cannon (replacing Air Slash in the move pool). Once again, my idea, but easily the best representation of a double buff we've had. It used both buffs to drag it out of the depths of NU. I'm not looking for things that already have a lot going for them (see: things in UU or OU; could make a case for things in RU).
I haven't made any clear cut rules about what can and can't be double buffed because I know that rule is going to be stretched constantly, and it's not worth explaining why we bent the rules over and over. My heuristic surrounding this, though, has always been this:
"Can 'X' Pokemon be OU viable with a single creative buff?"
That's the first thing I say to people when I turn down a double buff. I understand that your mega ultra awesome Darmanitan WOULD be amazing in OU, but I want to see creative thinking over all else. I want to look at the slate and be like, "Shit...that's really cool."
/announce-rant
Infernape+Unburden
Honorable Mention: Krookodile+Dragon Dance
Honorable Mention: Krookodile+Dragon Dance
Spikes Jolteon
Honorable Mention: Protean Hydreigon
Honorable Mention: Protean Hydreigon
Spikes Jolteon
Honorable Mention: Krookodile+Dragon Dance
Honorable Mention: Krookodile+Dragon Dance
Talk to Isa Simple . They've been working on one in the thread he's running. They could really use the participation over there; things have been very quiet.
I think some of the confusion may lie in the fact that the OP still links to the old Metagame thread run by Sun King, which has been closed.
The new thread is here and has a Viability rankings in the 2nd post (but its still a working progress).
Tagging Mysteria as he may want to make this more obvious in the opening post.
The new thread is here and has a Viability rankings in the 2nd post (but its still a working progress).
Tagging Mysteria as he may want to make this more obvious in the opening post.
ANNOUNCEMENT: Alright hello! The voting period has come to a close, and you know what that means...We have a new slate for y'all! I've also got some major news, so be sure to read this entire post.
Without further ado, your victor...
The results were as such...
Donphan + Ground/Fairy Typing: 31
Jolteon + Spikes: 20 (Jolteon will join the list of Honorable Mentions)
Sylveon + Geomancy: 8
Infernape + Unburden: 3
We also have an Honorable Mention! The peoples' choice...
Now to the next order of business--ladies and gentlemen, I present your next slate!
+ Magma Storm (it replaces Overheat so that not all Rotom forms receive Magma Storm)
+ Trace (credit to Akumeoy )
+ Shift Gear
+ Fairy Typing (replaces Normal typing) [submitted by GnralLao , Sacrificial Lambtias )
I know I haven't credited everyone. I'm in a bit of a rush, so I haven't had time to check my conversations. If you submitted one of these, just start a conversation with me and remind me. About half of our participants have submitted Blissey, so I'd like to include as many of you as possible.
FINAL ANNOUNCEMENT:
I'm retiring from Smogon--permanently. I'm about to start a major chapter in my life at my new college, and I really want to hit the ground running there. Running this thread has been a really big responsibility, and I just don't want to juggle too many balls at a difficult college. As such, I've decided it's time for me to move on from Smogon. I've had a phenomenal time on this site, and I cannot thank all of you enough for making this experience the utmost delight for nearly a year. I can only hope that the blood (not literally), sweat (literally), and tears (almost literally) I've put into this project inspired a few of you to contribute some of your own. Right now, I'm having a hard time concentrating on this post because I don't want it to be time to leave, but I know I have to do so (and also because I'm listening to Mystikal and can't multitask). During my time as leader, I have seen a small project multiply in size and I have been shown the pinnacle of respect by all of you. I want to thank all of you for treating me better than I could have ever deserved. YOU ARE ALL AMAZING!
Typically, the council votes on a person to replace a lost member. I have asked the council to let me choose my own successor. In my usual controversial way, I have chosen Celticpride as my replacement, thus limiting the council to five members. I'm sure this may disappoint you, as there are a number of excellent users that I would love to give the chance to be on the council. I think that the council got a little too big, however, and it's better in the long run if we keep things tight. I won't ask that you treat Celticpride with the same respect you treated me because he has to earn that. I'll say this--I have no doubt he will earn that respect. He's been officially vetted by the OU moderators as someone they trust to replace me, so he has more than enough street cred.
One last note: I will remain on Smogon until the credit for each of the above submissions is properly given. Oh and also, please send all submissions to the other council members. Thanks!
From the bottom of my heart, thank you.
Signing off one last time,
Sun King
(This sums up everything I feel right now)
Without further ado, your victor...
The results were as such...
Donphan + Ground/Fairy Typing: 31
Jolteon + Spikes: 20 (Jolteon will join the list of Honorable Mentions)
Sylveon + Geomancy: 8
Infernape + Unburden: 3
We also have an Honorable Mention! The peoples' choice...
Now to the next order of business--ladies and gentlemen, I present your next slate!
I know I haven't credited everyone. I'm in a bit of a rush, so I haven't had time to check my conversations. If you submitted one of these, just start a conversation with me and remind me. About half of our participants have submitted Blissey, so I'd like to include as many of you as possible.
FINAL ANNOUNCEMENT:
I'm retiring from Smogon--permanently. I'm about to start a major chapter in my life at my new college, and I really want to hit the ground running there. Running this thread has been a really big responsibility, and I just don't want to juggle too many balls at a difficult college. As such, I've decided it's time for me to move on from Smogon. I've had a phenomenal time on this site, and I cannot thank all of you enough for making this experience the utmost delight for nearly a year. I can only hope that the blood (not literally), sweat (literally), and tears (almost literally) I've put into this project inspired a few of you to contribute some of your own. Right now, I'm having a hard time concentrating on this post because I don't want it to be time to leave, but I know I have to do so (and also because I'm listening to Mystikal and can't multitask). During my time as leader, I have seen a small project multiply in size and I have been shown the pinnacle of respect by all of you. I want to thank all of you for treating me better than I could have ever deserved. YOU ARE ALL AMAZING!
Typically, the council votes on a person to replace a lost member. I have asked the council to let me choose my own successor. In my usual controversial way, I have chosen Celticpride as my replacement, thus limiting the council to five members. I'm sure this may disappoint you, as there are a number of excellent users that I would love to give the chance to be on the council. I think that the council got a little too big, however, and it's better in the long run if we keep things tight. I won't ask that you treat Celticpride with the same respect you treated me because he has to earn that. I'll say this--I have no doubt he will earn that respect. He's been officially vetted by the OU moderators as someone they trust to replace me, so he has more than enough street cred.
One last note: I will remain on Smogon until the credit for each of the above submissions is properly given. Oh and also, please send all submissions to the other council members. Thanks!
From the bottom of my heart, thank you.
Signing off one last time,
Sun King
(This sums up everything I feel right now)
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As the originator of Trace Virizion, I'll just copy+paste the pitch I made for it when submitting.
On the rest of the slate:
Shift Gear Lucario: I mean, it'll make Lucario more viable certainly, but I'm just not feeling it. Maybe I'm just not seeing it -- what is it beyond Setup Sweeper #23598?
Magma Storm Rotom-Heat: It's a cool move. It doesn't really have the equipment it needs to make a stallbreaker set out of it like Heatran does, but it's certainly a flat upgrade to Overheat on the defensive set. Probably its biggest benefit is not making the oven setup fodder after it uses its Fire STAB. I wasn't that keen on it at first, but I'm warming up to it (heh).
Fairy-type Blissey: Apart from Virizion, this one has the most potential, I think. A pink blob for stall teams that are Koff- or Fighting-weak? I'm sure stall would appreciate that.
Akumeoy said:
On the rest of the slate:
Shift Gear Lucario: I mean, it'll make Lucario more viable certainly, but I'm just not feeling it. Maybe I'm just not seeing it -- what is it beyond Setup Sweeper #23598?
Magma Storm Rotom-Heat: It's a cool move. It doesn't really have the equipment it needs to make a stallbreaker set out of it like Heatran does, but it's certainly a flat upgrade to Overheat on the defensive set. Probably its biggest benefit is not making the oven setup fodder after it uses its Fire STAB. I wasn't that keen on it at first, but I'm warming up to it (heh).
Fairy-type Blissey: Apart from Virizion, this one has the most potential, I think. A pink blob for stall teams that are Koff- or Fighting-weak? I'm sure stall would appreciate that.
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Mysteria stop being lazy and edit OP
Edit: ONLY THE TITLE DOESNT COUNT
+ Magma Storm: Seems interesting, not sure how big of a boost it is. Not only has lower accuracy and power, but you can't even the trapping shit like Heatran can since Water types don't switch in, Rock types do and Rotom can't really hurt the more common ones like T-Tar.
+ Trace: Pretty solid, can handle rain and sand with prediction, and can check Azumarill in a pinch. And with solid speed and a strong CC, it seems pretty darn good.
+ Shift Gear: Kinda pushing it guys, I get that you guys love Lucario and want him to be stronger, but this may be a bit too much. +1 Close Combat still hurts a lot, and being able to boost your power as well as get past your speed seems like it could be potentially broken. But maybe with its poor bulk it could happen.
+ Fairy typing replacing Normal: Annoying as shit. Blissey has always been a bitch to get past, but now with a great defensive typing, it checks stuff like Kyurem-Black and Keldeo, as well as other dragons and fighting types, however it does gain weaknesses to stuff like Bisharp, Megagross, Excadrill, and more common stuff. This will probably get my vote as none of the other stuff catches my interest as much as this.
ALSO WTF PROTEAN HYDREGION
Edit: ONLY THE TITLE DOESNT COUNT
ALSO WTF PROTEAN HYDREGION
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He'll be back, nobody can leave forever.
Serious talk it was fun working with ya sun king, we might fight, well, a LOT, but without him I wouldn't be here anyways and you're still my friend budE, good luck in college :^]
Moving on to my thoughts on the for the slate itself!
Trace Virizion is certainly one of the more unique submissions, and it's one that certainly holds its own weight against the rest of the slate. It sounds really neat to be able to switch directly into Pokemon such as Heatran to trace its Flash Fire, Landorus-T tracing its Intimidate, Excadrill's Sand Rush or Mold Breaker, and heck, you can even revenge kill Azumarill and trace its Huge Power (Man, a Pokemon with 108 Speed, 90 Attack, Swords Dance, semi-reliable recovery and Huge Power sounds completely terrifying.) Virizion also has some really neat options offensively, the aforementioned Swords Dance, Calm Mind, as well as two pretty neat offensive STABs. It's a bit annoying on how certain abilities you would want to trace, something like Clefable's Magic Guard or Tornadus-T's Regenerator are on Pokemon that you really don't want to be switching in against, and losing Justified means it can't switch into Knock Off with more freedom, however Trace makes it really unpredictable and you certainly are going to have to keep an eye on it in the heat of battle. This will probably be getting my vote.
Rotom-H is just ok in my eyes. Having the ability to Volt Switch, which is kinda counter-productive with trapping anyways (and I guess uh, Thunder Wave????), is nice. However, it still has a nasty weakness to Stealth Rock and lack of reliable recovery outside of Pain Split which isn't too reliable and poor HP, not to mention Magma Storm's shaky accuracy. It does have a cool typing that allows it to switch decently into Talonflame and Tornadus-T (although Torn would most likely just U-turn out since it outspeeds). Gonna keep this short, I can't see this making a large impact on the metagame. It's not that it's a bad buff, it's just not fantastic. It's certainly better than Overheat, but not one that's going to shoot Rotom to A or anything.
Shift Gear turns Lucario into a sweeping monster in a single turn. Thanks to the +2 Speed boost from Shift Gear, Lucario will generally be able to afford running an Adamant nature. Some of the calcs at +1 are surprisingly disgusting (Like doing upwards of 73% to physically defensive Hippowdon, having a chance to OHKO SpD Skarmory after Rocks, doing over half to a Clefable with Close Combat). I don't even think you need to predict anything when you have incredibly spammable Close Combats. Even revenge killing with those reduced defenses isn't as much as an issue thanks to Lucario's now blazing fast Speed stat. I'm not sure how this will effect Extreme Speed, as on one end, it's going to be a bit weak even at +1 since Lucario's Attack isn't sky high and it isn't STAB, but on the other end it can handle opposing priority from the likes of Breloom and Talonflame (Well, kinda, even at +1 you need prior damage on both of them). Either way Lucario is now capable of being an even more devastating sweeper late game, although I think Virizion will be getting my vote this time around.
I don't really know what to say to Fairy-type Blissey. Trading a pretty bad defensive typing for a better one is cool, making for a pretty nice Keldeo check, although it still loses to a whole bunch of the metagame and is still pretty passive. I dunno this one just doesn't have a lot to talk about.
Anyways! These are my thoughts, Trace Virizion is most likely getting my vote. Happy discussing everyone!
Serious talk it was fun working with ya sun king, we might fight, well, a LOT, but without him I wouldn't be here anyways and you're still my friend budE, good luck in college :^]
Moving on to my thoughts on the for the slate itself!
Trace Virizion is certainly one of the more unique submissions, and it's one that certainly holds its own weight against the rest of the slate. It sounds really neat to be able to switch directly into Pokemon such as Heatran to trace its Flash Fire, Landorus-T tracing its Intimidate, Excadrill's Sand Rush or Mold Breaker, and heck, you can even revenge kill Azumarill and trace its Huge Power (Man, a Pokemon with 108 Speed, 90 Attack, Swords Dance, semi-reliable recovery and Huge Power sounds completely terrifying.) Virizion also has some really neat options offensively, the aforementioned Swords Dance, Calm Mind, as well as two pretty neat offensive STABs. It's a bit annoying on how certain abilities you would want to trace, something like Clefable's Magic Guard or Tornadus-T's Regenerator are on Pokemon that you really don't want to be switching in against, and losing Justified means it can't switch into Knock Off with more freedom, however Trace makes it really unpredictable and you certainly are going to have to keep an eye on it in the heat of battle. This will probably be getting my vote.
Rotom-H is just ok in my eyes. Having the ability to Volt Switch, which is kinda counter-productive with trapping anyways (and I guess uh, Thunder Wave????), is nice. However, it still has a nasty weakness to Stealth Rock and lack of reliable recovery outside of Pain Split which isn't too reliable and poor HP, not to mention Magma Storm's shaky accuracy. It does have a cool typing that allows it to switch decently into Talonflame and Tornadus-T (although Torn would most likely just U-turn out since it outspeeds). Gonna keep this short, I can't see this making a large impact on the metagame. It's not that it's a bad buff, it's just not fantastic. It's certainly better than Overheat, but not one that's going to shoot Rotom to A or anything.
Shift Gear turns Lucario into a sweeping monster in a single turn. Thanks to the +2 Speed boost from Shift Gear, Lucario will generally be able to afford running an Adamant nature. Some of the calcs at +1 are surprisingly disgusting (Like doing upwards of 73% to physically defensive Hippowdon, having a chance to OHKO SpD Skarmory after Rocks, doing over half to a Clefable with Close Combat). I don't even think you need to predict anything when you have incredibly spammable Close Combats. Even revenge killing with those reduced defenses isn't as much as an issue thanks to Lucario's now blazing fast Speed stat. I'm not sure how this will effect Extreme Speed, as on one end, it's going to be a bit weak even at +1 since Lucario's Attack isn't sky high and it isn't STAB, but on the other end it can handle opposing priority from the likes of Breloom and Talonflame (Well, kinda, even at +1 you need prior damage on both of them). Either way Lucario is now capable of being an even more devastating sweeper late game, although I think Virizion will be getting my vote this time around.
I don't really know what to say to Fairy-type Blissey. Trading a pretty bad defensive typing for a better one is cool, making for a pretty nice Keldeo check, although it still loses to a whole bunch of the metagame and is still pretty passive. I dunno this one just doesn't have a lot to talk about.
Anyways! These are my thoughts, Trace Virizion is most likely getting my vote. Happy discussing everyone!
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Ok looking at it more, Magma Storm Rotom-H seems like a downgrade. Simply because you aren't going to be trapping what you want to trap anyway. Talonflame can just switch out before you Magma Storm, and Tornadus-T can just U-Turn out even if it does get trapped. And there is a difference between Heatran and Rotom-H using Magma Storm to trap. Heatran actually baits in Water types like Slowbro and Keldeo, while the things that switch into Rotom-H are stuff like Rock types which it can't touch anyway. Once Heatran traps your Slowbro, it kills with Solar Beam, while once you trap Tyranitar this is the best you can do..
252+ SpA Rotom-H Hidden Power Fighting vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 164-196 (40.6 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
And that's even considering T-Tar not being Scarf and can just OHKO you before you can even reveal your lure move. But I guess a STAB move that doesn't force you out after you use it is ok, but having near Focus Blast accuracy also sucks.
252+ SpA Rotom-H Hidden Power Fighting vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 164-196 (40.6 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
And that's even considering T-Tar not being Scarf and can just OHKO you before you can even reveal your lure move. But I guess a STAB move that doesn't force you out after you use it is ok, but having near Focus Blast accuracy also sucks.
The problem with Overheat is that once you use it, Rotom-H becomes setup fodder. I think granting Rotom-H the ability to throw a wrench into potential double switches, and letting it use Volt Switch at full power after using its Fire STAB (meaning that this iteration is more misprediction-friendly for the user), should definitely grant it a niche.
While Magma Storm is a partial trapping move, I think it's more useful to consider how the move will function on Rotom-H's standard pivoting/defensive sets than to make the obvious comparison to trapping 'mons.
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