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Project OU Theorymon
- Thread starter heritage
- Start date
Whiscash + Simple
Honorable Mention: Jolteon + Spikes
Honorable Mention: Jolteon + Spikes
Thank you everyone for voting and waiting so patiently for this awesome new slate! The council is also proud to announce that we almost reached the 60 votes cap for the previous slate! I hope that, at some point, we get to reach/exceed the 80-something votes we had some time ago in the previous thread.
Anyway, I think everyone knows which mon won this time, so let me present you our newest Theorymon winner:
+ Dark / Fighting-typing and Vacuum Wave
The votes went as follow:
Zoroark + Dark / Fighting-typing and Vacuum Wave: 39
Mesprit + Download and Judgment: 11 (joins the list of honorable mentions!)
Whiscash + Simple: 7
Jellicent + Serene Grace: 2
We also have two honorable mentions that are ready to make an impact in the metagame:
And now, without further ado, here is the new slate:
+ Fairy-typing (replaces Psychic-typing) and Mold Breaker (Credit to Sacrificial Lambtias)
+ Drizzle (Credit to Bendiving)
+ Seed Flare (Credit to Jaroda)
+ Chlorophyll and Flare Blitz
Have fun discussing and good luck to all submissions!!! Go nuts!
Anyway, I think everyone knows which mon won this time, so let me present you our newest Theorymon winner:
The votes went as follow:
Zoroark + Dark / Fighting-typing and Vacuum Wave: 39
Mesprit + Download and Judgment: 11 (joins the list of honorable mentions!)
Whiscash + Simple: 7
Jellicent + Serene Grace: 2
We also have two honorable mentions that are ready to make an impact in the metagame:
Let's all give a warm welcome to our first Eeveelution and my personnal favorite legendary!
+ Spikes
+ Magnet Pull
And now, without further ado, here is the new slate:
Have fun discussing and good luck to all submissions!!! Go nuts!
Solrock + Chlorophyll + Flare Blitz: Well, bonus points for flavor. Can't boost, needs either a Life Orb or a Choice Band to actually dish out damage under the sun, and still fails against bulky Ground- and Water-types when it does. Life Orb is contraindicated with Flare Blitz (shut up, Darmanitan) and a Choice Band really hinders its ability to sweep because it lacks a really spammable move -- Flare Blitz has recoil, teams already avoid stacking Rock weaknesses, nothing else is strong or STAB.
It has a great support movepool and a nice set of resistances/immunities (as well as a plethora of weaknesses, unfortunately), would have loved to see some buff to take advantage of that. If we wanted to buff sun, Solrock would have made a stellar (zing!) Drought user itself -- slightly redundant with Torterra, but there has to be a niche somewhere in Screens + Rocks + WoW + Baton Pass.
Overall, I'm skeptical and just generally not feeling it. I'm kinda tired of new toys for weather -- when are we gonna get new Trick Room toys? How about a good Gravity abuser? Sticky Webbers? There are other non-standard playstyles too, you know!
Seismitoad + Drizzle: Rain is already a strong playstyle, judging by Politoed's A- rank in OU, and its most common rain teammates are at B+. I don't see why Drizzle Seismitoad is necessary at all, particularly considering that Politoed goes right back into the trash if this gets elected -- it doesn't increase the diversity of the tier, it basically supersedes an existing Pokemon's niche with a scalpel.
Azelf + Mono-Fairy Typing + Mold Breaker: I'm gonna take a stab in the dark and say that the council finds Mega Sableye to be annoying. You might as well give it Sturdy for all the pandering you're doing to its established role. Snark aside, I actually do like the idea of a fast Fairy-type mixed attacker that isn't named Mega Diancie -- it shouldn't be difficult to figure out where their niches diverge. I suspect that Azelf's disappointing typing is what keeps it out of a more general offensive role -- giving it Fairy-typing should be an interesting experiment. I can imagine offensive utility sets, Taunt + three attacks, Nasty Plot, and All-Out Attacker sets all being usable.
I could care less about its potential as a suicide lead, I could never get those to work and I'm skeptical of their utility in general with as many good defoggers as there are.
Sceptile + Seed Flare: I get what you're going for here, and it's cool to free up a moveslot and not have to run Leaf Storm, and I like Mega Sceptile, but I should note that Seed Flare is not as effective a tool for stallbreaking as you probably want it to be -- it doesn't get the drops when you need it to, you know? Not that Seed Flare is by any extent bad, but it's like a 34% chance to drop after the miss chance.
I'm also less than enthralled about extending signature moves to random Pokemon -- it feels wrong. I think what I really want to see for Sceptile, more than a cool Grass STAB, is some kind of cool utility move that it can use. That would save it from being a one-dimensional Special Attacker, at least.
It has a great support movepool and a nice set of resistances/immunities (as well as a plethora of weaknesses, unfortunately), would have loved to see some buff to take advantage of that. If we wanted to buff sun, Solrock would have made a stellar (zing!) Drought user itself -- slightly redundant with Torterra, but there has to be a niche somewhere in Screens + Rocks + WoW + Baton Pass.
Overall, I'm skeptical and just generally not feeling it. I'm kinda tired of new toys for weather -- when are we gonna get new Trick Room toys? How about a good Gravity abuser? Sticky Webbers? There are other non-standard playstyles too, you know!
Seismitoad + Drizzle: Rain is already a strong playstyle, judging by Politoed's A- rank in OU, and its most common rain teammates are at B+. I don't see why Drizzle Seismitoad is necessary at all, particularly considering that Politoed goes right back into the trash if this gets elected -- it doesn't increase the diversity of the tier, it basically supersedes an existing Pokemon's niche with a scalpel.
Azelf + Mono-Fairy Typing + Mold Breaker: I'm gonna take a stab in the dark and say that the council finds Mega Sableye to be annoying. You might as well give it Sturdy for all the pandering you're doing to its established role. Snark aside, I actually do like the idea of a fast Fairy-type mixed attacker that isn't named Mega Diancie -- it shouldn't be difficult to figure out where their niches diverge. I suspect that Azelf's disappointing typing is what keeps it out of a more general offensive role -- giving it Fairy-typing should be an interesting experiment. I can imagine offensive utility sets, Taunt + three attacks, Nasty Plot, and All-Out Attacker sets all being usable.
I could care less about its potential as a suicide lead, I could never get those to work and I'm skeptical of their utility in general with as many good defoggers as there are.
Sceptile + Seed Flare: I get what you're going for here, and it's cool to free up a moveslot and not have to run Leaf Storm, and I like Mega Sceptile, but I should note that Seed Flare is not as effective a tool for stallbreaking as you probably want it to be -- it doesn't get the drops when you need it to, you know? Not that Seed Flare is by any extent bad, but it's like a 34% chance to drop after the miss chance.
I'm also less than enthralled about extending signature moves to random Pokemon -- it feels wrong. I think what I really want to see for Sceptile, more than a cool Grass STAB, is some kind of cool utility move that it can use. That would save it from being a one-dimensional Special Attacker, at least.
I'm a bit confused about Solrock. What are these changes supposed to do for it? Make it a switch in for CharY fire blasts? A loss of levitate doesn't help defensively, and rock/psychic is BAD, especially considering that stuff like tyranitar, hippowdon or garchomp can switch in on any attack, while changing the weather on you. Perhaps it is better suited for a fast support role, with stuff like morning sun, SR+screens, will-o, and baton pass to escape pursuit? I just don't see how this works, especially considering that you probably don't want to spend your weather turns boosting. Flare blitz is for steels, I guess, but again it does nothing outside of sun. Maybe someone else can explain some use for this that I'm missing?
EDIT: After thinking about this, it seems pretty worthless. The only real set I can see would be stone edge, will-o, baton pass, morning sun. This give you the tiny niche of switching on a charY fireblast and forcing it out. The issue with this is that outside of sun, you're still using Solrock, only now you have ANOTHER weakness. Even with this set you still have huge 4MSS, since you would really like screens and/or SR, but dropping stone edge, will-o, or morning sun means that you die to charY, dark types, or become worthless at support, respectively. Flare blitz is good for nothing, as there are plenty of better sun sweepers.
Seismitoad is simply a straight upgrade to politoed. It can now set rocks and rain, while acting as a check for electrics without HP grass. Losing water absorb might hurt, since seismitoad will miss the chance for recovery, and certainly won't like taking neutral rain-boosted scalds.
EDIT: After thinking about this, it seems pretty worthless. The only real set I can see would be stone edge, will-o, baton pass, morning sun. This give you the tiny niche of switching on a charY fireblast and forcing it out. The issue with this is that outside of sun, you're still using Solrock, only now you have ANOTHER weakness. Even with this set you still have huge 4MSS, since you would really like screens and/or SR, but dropping stone edge, will-o, or morning sun means that you die to charY, dark types, or become worthless at support, respectively. Flare blitz is good for nothing, as there are plenty of better sun sweepers.
Seismitoad is simply a straight upgrade to politoed. It can now set rocks and rain, while acting as a check for electrics without HP grass. Losing water absorb might hurt, since seismitoad will miss the chance for recovery, and certainly won't like taking neutral rain-boosted scalds.
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Well, Sceptile makes out really well from Seed Flare there. Instead of Leaf Storm forcing it to play hit and run, Seed Flare can turn would be walled situations into another forced switch, and Sceptile doesn't risk being forced out from a -2 on Heatran entering. A more spammable strong STAB alone turns him into a much more effective sweeper/cleaner, and the potential SpD drop can help him break through things with the same likelihood as Keldeo burning a Check.
Fairy Type + Mold Breaker Azelf seems a bit odd to me, as I don't quite understand how those two traits together advance it towards the same end. Fairy typing brings better defensive typing and a more spammable Special STAB (though no physical STAB hurts mixed/Physical sets), while Mold Breaker gets around certain abilities, though I can't think of what troubled Azelf in particular. That said, it's pretty much a text book counter lead now, breaking Sableye and setting up Rocks in its face, and I presume it can Taunt anything now (Oblivious Mamoswine) and KOing lead Skarmory through Sturdy to avoid Custap. Interesting niche there, besides shaking up the offensive sets, given most other Fairy types are pretty slow, and the ones with ways to go fast are Megas.
Seismitoad... does this offer anything to diversify the tier? It's either outclassed by Politoed for the Support movepool, or outclasses Politoed as an offensive weather setter (for a simple example), so either way, it's not quite like Tyranitar and Hippowdon where the setters are on similar footing and it's a choice of playstyle/synergy for them. Seismitoad and Politoed are a bit different, but not different enough to co-exist as setters for Rain. Seismitoad would probably win out, since Rain is an inherently offensive playstyle, so his SR access and better offensive movepool would win out for the role. That said, Rain is already viable enough that improving it even slightly doesn't really bring much new. It's effective, but not what I'm looking for in a theorymon.
Solrock just needs more than the 2 Theorymon changes could give it. Chlorophyll still requires Sun to do it any good, so it'd still probably want Levitate since Sunny Day is a moveslot for it, and it's still not the fastest with the boost. Flare Blitz needs the Sun Boost since it gets no STAB and Solrock's attack is low, and it'll cut into Solrock's lifespan even more than the new spikes weakness. Solrock might have something to offer as a Support mon for some playstyle, but Sun isn't quite big enough (outside Theorymon with Torterra, which we're supposed to avoid considering for votes) to warrant a mon that needs it to work optimally.
Fairy Type + Mold Breaker Azelf seems a bit odd to me, as I don't quite understand how those two traits together advance it towards the same end. Fairy typing brings better defensive typing and a more spammable Special STAB (though no physical STAB hurts mixed/Physical sets), while Mold Breaker gets around certain abilities, though I can't think of what troubled Azelf in particular. That said, it's pretty much a text book counter lead now, breaking Sableye and setting up Rocks in its face, and I presume it can Taunt anything now (Oblivious Mamoswine) and KOing lead Skarmory through Sturdy to avoid Custap. Interesting niche there, besides shaking up the offensive sets, given most other Fairy types are pretty slow, and the ones with ways to go fast are Megas.
Seismitoad... does this offer anything to diversify the tier? It's either outclassed by Politoed for the Support movepool, or outclasses Politoed as an offensive weather setter (for a simple example), so either way, it's not quite like Tyranitar and Hippowdon where the setters are on similar footing and it's a choice of playstyle/synergy for them. Seismitoad and Politoed are a bit different, but not different enough to co-exist as setters for Rain. Seismitoad would probably win out, since Rain is an inherently offensive playstyle, so his SR access and better offensive movepool would win out for the role. That said, Rain is already viable enough that improving it even slightly doesn't really bring much new. It's effective, but not what I'm looking for in a theorymon.
Solrock just needs more than the 2 Theorymon changes could give it. Chlorophyll still requires Sun to do it any good, so it'd still probably want Levitate since Sunny Day is a moveslot for it, and it's still not the fastest with the boost. Flare Blitz needs the Sun Boost since it gets no STAB and Solrock's attack is low, and it'll cut into Solrock's lifespan even more than the new spikes weakness. Solrock might have something to offer as a Support mon for some playstyle, but Sun isn't quite big enough (outside Theorymon with Torterra, which we're supposed to avoid considering for votes) to warrant a mon that needs it to work optimally.
Sweet! Here's my original submission to explain my reasoning:
Seismitoad with Drizzle (+baton pass?)
Rain is a great play style but struggles a lot with role compression - by the time you have politoad and two swift swimmers it can be difficult to fit everything else you need on the team. Seismitoad compresses 3 things all rain teams need into one role - drizzle, stealth rock, and an electric immunity, which frees up teambuilding a lot. He also has decent bulk, a good support move pool and passable special attack. Rocks are mandatory then you can go offensive with hydro/scald/earth power/sludge wave or support with scald/toxic/infestation/knock off/rain dance (for resetting weather vs ttar or hippo). Infestation is an interesting option to trap a mon to either toxic stall or give you a free switch into the sweeper of your choice after setting rain and rocks. If you feel this is not enough of a buff baton pass could also be added to gain momentum after setting rocks, giving a safe switch in to your sweeper/breaker and capitalising on rain turns.
Thoughts on the others:
Azelf + fairy typing & mold breaker
Fuck you M-Sableye. Sets hazards vs magic bounce so no more mind games. Not that anyone's going to switch their Sableye in on this thing anyway with STAB dazzling gleam coming off 125 SpA. With a pursuit resistance now instead of a weakness it can't be easily trapped, allowing it to stick around easily to set rocks throughout the match. With 115 speed it's also the fastest unboosted fairy type in the tier, turning it into a decent wallbreaker/sweeper with nasty plot and a fantastic typing, plus mold breaker to bypass unaware, sturdy and flash fire. With a set of nasty plot / dazzling gleam / fire blast / HP rock she achieves perfect neutral coverage. She's also the only fairy type who can check all steels in just one moveslot:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Azelf Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 289-341 (89.4 - 105.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
HP rock can of course be switched for taunt or stealth rock if you don't mind not hitting Talonflame or CharY. Mold breaker taunt bypasses magic guard and oblivious to become a stallbreaker/anti lead too.
Mega-Sceptile + seed flare
One of Sceptile's biggest flaw is its grass STAB options either being weak (giga drain) or with a major drawback (leaf storm). Seed flare exchanges the SpA drop for a 40% SpD drop for the opponent, so that instead of being a momentum-draining hit-and-run nuke, he's forcing switches and grabbing momentum instead. Yeah it's simple but very effective and exactly what this thing needs.
Solrock + Chlorophyll & flare blitz
When I started typing this up I was thinking it was sunny day and flare blitz, which would have fit the flavour so well, but this is still good. OU is kinda devoid of sun sweepers and the only two semi-viable ones (Venusaur and Victreebel) stack weaknesses with each other and are weak to fire, so hindered defensively by the sun, whereas Solrock resists fire. Solrock synergises well with Venu, resisting fire flying and psychic while Venu resists water and grass, meaning you can have the two sun sweepers on the same team without compromising your defenses, making sun potentially as viable as rain. Chlorophyll to patch up his average-but-not-awful speed and flare blitz for powerful sun-boosted coverage. Yeah I can see this working, I love weather teams and this could be just the thing to give sun the boost it needs.
Really interesting slate I think, haven't decided who to vote for yet (probably Azelf) but a good mix of offensive and support ideas :]
Seismitoad with Drizzle (+baton pass?)
Rain is a great play style but struggles a lot with role compression - by the time you have politoad and two swift swimmers it can be difficult to fit everything else you need on the team. Seismitoad compresses 3 things all rain teams need into one role - drizzle, stealth rock, and an electric immunity, which frees up teambuilding a lot. He also has decent bulk, a good support move pool and passable special attack. Rocks are mandatory then you can go offensive with hydro/scald/earth power/sludge wave or support with scald/toxic/infestation/knock off/rain dance (for resetting weather vs ttar or hippo). Infestation is an interesting option to trap a mon to either toxic stall or give you a free switch into the sweeper of your choice after setting rain and rocks. If you feel this is not enough of a buff baton pass could also be added to gain momentum after setting rocks, giving a safe switch in to your sweeper/breaker and capitalising on rain turns.
Thoughts on the others:
Azelf + fairy typing & mold breaker
Fuck you M-Sableye. Sets hazards vs magic bounce so no more mind games. Not that anyone's going to switch their Sableye in on this thing anyway with STAB dazzling gleam coming off 125 SpA. With a pursuit resistance now instead of a weakness it can't be easily trapped, allowing it to stick around easily to set rocks throughout the match. With 115 speed it's also the fastest unboosted fairy type in the tier, turning it into a decent wallbreaker/sweeper with nasty plot and a fantastic typing, plus mold breaker to bypass unaware, sturdy and flash fire. With a set of nasty plot / dazzling gleam / fire blast / HP rock she achieves perfect neutral coverage. She's also the only fairy type who can check all steels in just one moveslot:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Azelf Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 289-341 (89.4 - 105.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
HP rock can of course be switched for taunt or stealth rock if you don't mind not hitting Talonflame or CharY. Mold breaker taunt bypasses magic guard and oblivious to become a stallbreaker/anti lead too.
Mega-Sceptile + seed flare
One of Sceptile's biggest flaw is its grass STAB options either being weak (giga drain) or with a major drawback (leaf storm). Seed flare exchanges the SpA drop for a 40% SpD drop for the opponent, so that instead of being a momentum-draining hit-and-run nuke, he's forcing switches and grabbing momentum instead. Yeah it's simple but very effective and exactly what this thing needs.
Solrock + Chlorophyll & flare blitz
When I started typing this up I was thinking it was sunny day and flare blitz, which would have fit the flavour so well, but this is still good. OU is kinda devoid of sun sweepers and the only two semi-viable ones (Venusaur and Victreebel) stack weaknesses with each other and are weak to fire, so hindered defensively by the sun, whereas Solrock resists fire. Solrock synergises well with Venu, resisting fire flying and psychic while Venu resists water and grass, meaning you can have the two sun sweepers on the same team without compromising your defenses, making sun potentially as viable as rain. Chlorophyll to patch up his average-but-not-awful speed and flare blitz for powerful sun-boosted coverage. Yeah I can see this working, I love weather teams and this could be just the thing to give sun the boost it needs.
Really interesting slate I think, haven't decided who to vote for yet (probably Azelf) but a good mix of offensive and support ideas :]
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A fast Faerie pokemon with Mold Breaker Taunt plus the possibility to avoid Sturdy's effect and some immunities is....very very good and I like it more than the latter slate because now you can use the two buffs together. It will get my vote. Azelf has a good speed tier and good mixed attacking stats so it is not forced to run Choice Scarf.+ Fairy-typing (replaces Psychic-typing) and Mold Breaker (Credit to Sacrificial Lambtias)
Seismitoad has a usable speed stat (i said "usable" not great) and has the ability to run Stealth Rock with an immunity to Electric-type attacks which is very appealing because the Grass coverage is easily scoutable due to the many 4x resist in the OU meta. Frees one teamslot in a rain team being both a Drizzle enabler + a Stealth Rock setter at the same time thus making it an upgrade over Politoed. In my opinion regular Swampert could be a better Drizzle enabler, but Seismitoad is a decent ones. It is a shame that this frog doesn't have a better physical movepool.+ Drizzle (Credit to Bendiving)
Upgrade to the normal Mega Sceptile which now can force some switch-outs clicking a high-power move without the -2 SpA. Solid choice which makes it a better late game cleaner than now but Sceptile itself is pretty one-dimensional.+ Seed Flare (Credit to Jaroda)
Interesting; Solrock can't be an interesting Sun sweeper due to the weaknesses to all forms of priority (bar Quick Attack and Mach Punch) make it bordeline useless even in the Sun, not to mention that now is weak to even Earthquake with the loss of Levitate. Before sun sweepers, we need more consistent Sun setters in the OU meta (not sure if Drought Torterra counts being a theorymon); at least regular Venusaur can check some priority even outside the sun (Aqua Jet).+ Chlorophyll and Flare Blitz
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Here's the thing: Solrock's stats are ass. You're describing Solrock as another sweeper to be paired with Venusaur, and it needs to run max Speed and max Attack to do jack shit in the first place, so let's assume it's not invested in bulk at all. Resistances aren't that impressive with uninvested 70/85/65 bulk.
0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Solrock in Sun: 114-135 (40.5 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Solrock in Sun: 223-263 (79.3 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Solrock in Sun: 246-291 (87.5 - 103.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Solrock in Sun: 123-144 (43.7 - 51.2%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Solrock in Sun: 231-272 (82.2 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Solrock in Sun: 144-169 (51.2 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Entei Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Solrock in Sun: 183-217 (65.1 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Solrock does not like to switch into Fire attacks in the sun -- not more than once, and you sure as hell don't want to waste Sun turns clicking Morning Sun. Out of the sun, it is very thoroughly ass. It does fare a bit better against Flying-type attacks:
252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Solrock: 98-116 (34.8 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Solrock: 131-155 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Solrock: 141-167 (50.1 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Solrock: 127-150 (45.1 - 53.3%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Solrock: 77-91 (27.4 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Save for Megadactyl's Aerial Ace, Solrock does not appreciate being forced to take two Flying-type attacks -- especially if it wants to use Flare Blitz. Honestly, just run Scarf Heatran if you need a fast Sun abuser that can tank Fire-type attacks.
TL;DR Solrock's poor defensive stats, regardless of its typing, hinder its ability to provide defensive synergy to sun teams.
Before I discuss this slate, I just really needa ask this?
Are we still discussing the slate in regards to the standard OU meta, or are we allowed to talk about the Theorymon meta?
Because it just seems that Solrock would be complete ass with sun still in its poor state. Like it has decent defensive synergy with Venusaur, but Venusaur and Ninetales need more than Solrock with speed and a suicidal pseudo STAB to make sun viable. Where as in Theorymon, Torterra does make sun teams a little more feasible, so its nice to add some diversity to Chlorophyll users, as they are all grass.
But then if we are considering Theorymons, we needa compare Azelf to Froslass, as I'm guessing the primary idea behind Azelf is same sorta lead but beats Mega Sableye and can Taunt Mamo.
Also if we still can't discuss other Theorymon (which is what I'm guessing), if a council member could please enlighten us on what Solrock's niche would be that'll be grand. I'd summon whoever suggested it but its not listed so I'd assume it was a council member's idea anyway yeah?
Are we still discussing the slate in regards to the standard OU meta, or are we allowed to talk about the Theorymon meta?
Because it just seems that Solrock would be complete ass with sun still in its poor state. Like it has decent defensive synergy with Venusaur, but Venusaur and Ninetales need more than Solrock with speed and a suicidal pseudo STAB to make sun viable. Where as in Theorymon, Torterra does make sun teams a little more feasible, so its nice to add some diversity to Chlorophyll users, as they are all grass.
But then if we are considering Theorymons, we needa compare Azelf to Froslass, as I'm guessing the primary idea behind Azelf is same sorta lead but beats Mega Sableye and can Taunt Mamo.
Also if we still can't discuss other Theorymon (which is what I'm guessing), if a council member could please enlighten us on what Solrock's niche would be that'll be grand. I'd summon whoever suggested it but its not listed so I'd assume it was a council member's idea anyway yeah?
Honestly if we aren't considering the theorymon meta instead of the standard OU meta at this point, I'd be very surprised. At this point it's fairly safe to say that the two are not the same and are growing more and more different each passing slate, yet a lot of the submissions still seem to be looking more like a wish list for standard OU rather than something that might do well in the meta it's intended for. Not discussing this project for what it is, an Other Metagame, and pretending that it's directly linked to OU is only hurting the project at this point. In any case a lot of the voting base
Yeah, so that wish list comment above is kinda aimed at this thing. Clearly it's intended to be a suicide lead for HO teams that does well with Mega Sableye, which would be really cool in standard play. Unfortunately stall isn't really a thing in Theorymon and Sableye is a straight up liability, given how it gives free opportunities for Mega Camerupt and Entei to come in and murder something. Nasty Plot might be decent, as Bendiving mentioned it's pretty hard to switch into and there isn't really much competition when it comes to fast Fairy wallbreakers given how few Fairies there are in the first place, so this submission might still be alright.+ Fairy-typing (replaces Psychic-typing) and Mold Breaker (Credit to Sacrificial Lambtias)
Yay more weather wars. Imo this is a straight upgrade to Politoed, who doesn't do much other than stack weaknesses with Swift Swimmers. Seismitoad provides an answer to most Electric types (who really can't afford to give up HP Ice and coverage on most Dragons and Grass types just to hit this), doesn't get totally walked over by Mega Camerupt thanks to STAB Earth Power, and it provides hazard support to boot. This is role compression at it's finest and helps quite a bit in making a really bad matchup better.+ Drizzle (Credit to Bendiving)
This helps alleviate one of the reasons why Mega Sceptile almost never sees play; the lack of a solid Grass STAB. Leaf Storm is alright, but it limits Sceptile's staying power by a lot. Energy Ball and Giga Drain, on the other hand, just straight up limit Sceptile's power, not being damaging enough to actually put a dent in anything. Seed Flare is powerful and doesn't force you out after using it, which makes Sceptile a lot more of a threat. I'm not really a fan of Seed Flare's design, given how Sceptile has a pretty solid coverage movepool, allowing it to get random stat drops would make it a pain to switch into depending on which coverage moves it's running, and would probably end up being the #1 Saltiest Theorymon.+ Seed Flare (Credit to Jaroda)
Ok it's really obvious what this is supposed to do and I'm all for having something like this, but Solrock is so bad I can't imagine why you would actually use this on your sun team. Akumeoy gave some pretty good examples on why this thing doesn't really help with what it's supposed to do, so I don't have much else to say about this. Use Aerodactyl, Diancie, or Archeops if you really need the Rock typing (Archeops's defenses are only slightly worse, and the offensive pressure it puts out is so much better).+ Chlorophyll and Flare Blitz
I guess I should talk about Mold Breaker Fairy Azelf a bit.
The flavor behind this is that Azelf forces through opposing abilities with sheer willpower.
While this gives Azelf amazing potential as a lead because it can go through sturdy, oblivious, and magic bounce, it also gives Azelf amazing offensive potential when combined with a mono fairy typing. Mold Breaker allows Azelf to get through things that would otherwise check it like heatran and unaware users. Fairy typing gives Azelf an edge over dark types that otherwise crush it, and almost everything that has super effective coverage against fairy types is checked by dazzling gleam/fire blast and out sped by Azelf.
This gives Azelf two moveslots to play around with. Nasty plot will probably fill one if Azelf chooses to sweep. The other slot can be filled by a number of things. Hidden Power Rock gives Azelf some needed super effective coverage against fire types, taunt allows Azelf to walk all over defensive mons, knock off provides great utility coming off of a 125 base attack stat, and stealth rock is almost guranteed to go up because it goes through magic bounce. I believe that Azelf has a lot of potential with this new typing and ability as a fast offensive sweeper that isn't a mega or stuck at the base 110 speed cluster.
The flavor behind this is that Azelf forces through opposing abilities with sheer willpower.
While this gives Azelf amazing potential as a lead because it can go through sturdy, oblivious, and magic bounce, it also gives Azelf amazing offensive potential when combined with a mono fairy typing. Mold Breaker allows Azelf to get through things that would otherwise check it like heatran and unaware users. Fairy typing gives Azelf an edge over dark types that otherwise crush it, and almost everything that has super effective coverage against fairy types is checked by dazzling gleam/fire blast and out sped by Azelf.
This gives Azelf two moveslots to play around with. Nasty plot will probably fill one if Azelf chooses to sweep. The other slot can be filled by a number of things. Hidden Power Rock gives Azelf some needed super effective coverage against fire types, taunt allows Azelf to walk all over defensive mons, knock off provides great utility coming off of a 125 base attack stat, and stealth rock is almost guranteed to go up because it goes through magic bounce. I believe that Azelf has a lot of potential with this new typing and ability as a fast offensive sweeper that isn't a mega or stuck at the base 110 speed cluster.
Exact same analysis I would have except I'd like to add also that Solrock really would also like to change its typing to Rock/Fire for this new role, although I know it exceeds the 2 change limit, it would make the idea much more workable. Also I'd like to additionally comment that there's a big inconsistency in allowing multiple changes right now since somehow Azelf is allowed this option, a mon that although it is in B rating has a much higher usage statistic and has great stats, when somehow there's only one change to mons like Whiscash who are flat out terrible. Also I'm just not enjoying this concept of "make a theorymon that counters the metagame", first it was Regirock and now it's this Azelf. I'd rather we focus on making mons who are improved as a general concept who could maybe stay relevant with the changes for future metas instead of just being used to weaken one specific threat who may become irrelevant later or banned.
Making Pokemon for the OU metagame generally implies making them do something that something in OU doesn't already do (otherwise you're just replacing one thing with another -- this is part of why Drizzle Seismitoad is a bad theorymon); some do this more elegantly than others (compare Trace Virizion and Sand Stream + Fairy Regirock), which I think is what you're getting at, but as a general principle it's kind of indispensable. I don't think "countering the metagame" has to be at odds with staying relevant.
I'll accept and support this Azelf theorymon on the grounds that, while obviously catered to one role, the improvements are general enough to keep it relevant should the Suicide Lead set become irrelevant. Also I don't like the other things on the slate.
As much as I hate stall, I personally don't see what's wrong with aiming to check the meta when people suggest things that aim to kill the meta, Sand Rush Mega Garchomp and Geomancy Sylveon as examples. However, I do agree with this: it surprises me that the council would allow a Pokemon that's already decently viable to get 2 changes.
Chlorophyll + Flare Blitz Solrock: people before me have said this, but it doesn't add much. Just use a fire-type scarfer like Vicitni, Heatran, Infernape, or even Darmanitan and they'll do the same thing. It absolutely NEEDS Adamant Choice Band to hit particularly hard because lol 252+ Atk Life Orb Solrock Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Sun: 257-304 (76.9 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery - Band would OHKO 1/3 times if Sturdy wasn't a thing. Besides, Solrock outside of sun is still the same Solrock that is unviable. I don't think Chlorophyll offers much else, especially when uninvested bulk isn't helping much.
Mold Breaker + Fairy typing Azelf: yeah I don't see why this thing got 2 changes, it was already decent in OU. Mold Breaker lets it set rocks on Magic Bouncers without fear, and it can Taunt Mega Sableye and set-up all over it. It's got good stats and a crazy movepool with things like Nasty Plot, Fire Blast, Ice Beam, Knock Off, and even U-turn. It's fast, and it's not that frail either. Fairy is good offensively and defensively, and Fire Blast goes past Heatran, something that, let's say, Mega Altaria can't do without Earthquake, and Mega Diancie is walled by Mega Scizor and Ferrothorn without HP Fire. Basically, Azelf gets past all Steels with one move. It's definitely good, but I don't like how it got 2 buffs :/
Drizzle Seismitoed: it's a direct upgrade from Politoed because it has Stealth Rock and an Electric immunity, which is helpful for rain teams because they don't have to use teamslots on Stealth Rock and an Electric type (although they still can to abuse Thunder). It offers good role compression, and that'll kick Politoed out unless you need a Scald absorber - a better one, at least. Neutral rain boosted Scalds will hurt, as someone said above. I don't know what else to say.
Seed Flare Mega Sceptile: not really a fan of giving signature moves to other Pokemon :/ There's a reason they're signature moves, like Seed Flare, Judgement, Spacial Rend, etc. Giving them to random Pokemon seems...weird. Anyways, Seed Flare is a huge buff because it offers consistently high damage and has that ridiculous 40% chance to lower SpD by 2 stages, turning would-checks into food. Obviously, Mega Sceptile is fast and Seed Flare will let it break through any check really.
Just come calcs against current checks/counters to Mega Sceptile
252 SpA Mega Sceptile Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 51-60 (15.7 - 18.5%) -- possible 6HKO
252 SpA Mega Sceptile Dragon Pulse vs. -2 0 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 143-168 (44.2 - 52%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO
Seed Flare with SpD drop followed by 2 Dragon Pulses KOs offensive Heatran, so you don't even need to risk Focus Blast. SpD sets, you need to use it.
252 SpA Mega Sceptile Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 102-120 (35 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Sceptile Seed Flare vs. -2 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 204-240 (70.1 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even with minimum rolls, you 2HKO offensive Mega Altaria. DDD has a good chance to be 2HKO'd by Seed Flare after rocks assuming you get the SpD drop.
252 SpA Mega Sceptile Dragon Pulse vs. -2 0 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 143-168 (44.2 - 52%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO
Seed Flare with SpD drop followed by 2 Dragon Pulses KOs offensive Heatran, so you don't even need to risk Focus Blast. SpD sets, you need to use it.
252 SpA Mega Sceptile Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 102-120 (35 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Sceptile Seed Flare vs. -2 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 204-240 (70.1 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even with minimum rolls, you 2HKO offensive Mega Altaria. DDD has a good chance to be 2HKO'd by Seed Flare after rocks assuming you get the SpD drop.
Of course, I can go on, like 248/176 Mega Scizor has a decent chance to be KO'd by Seed Flare followed by -2 Focus Blast after rocks, Klefki is set-up fodder (Substitute) and gets KO'd by Seed Flare followed by -2 Focus Blast easily, etc. It seems a bit too powerful lol it breaks through like anything.
I believe there was a post in the old thread that stated discussion should be based around how good these Pokemon would be in the current OU metagame, not the OU Theorymon metagame.
Chlorophyll + Flare Blitz Solrock: I get the theme, really I do, but man is it just not enough to warrant picking. As calcs have shown, without STAB, Flare Blitz isn't hurting nearly enough. Then there's also the fact that this thing is weak to both Bullet Punch, Sucker Punch, and pseudo-Aqua Jet in the Sun. That's pretty unfortunate for a sweeper. Then of course there's the fact that other weather setters can switch into you all day, and you can't even run a mixed set thanks to 55 SpA. It's just far too weak, even assuming Sun were permanent.
Mold Breaker + Fairy typing Azelf: Yeah I get it, free rocks and a counter to M-Sableye. It'd probably be A- worthy or something but I'm not drooling over it either per se.
Drizzle Seismitoed: Unfortunately I think Seismetoad already has two great abilities in Water Absorb and Swift Swim. This buff makes Rain as a playstyle better by picking it over Politoed, but I don't think it necessarily makes Seismetoad specifically better itself, and I think the playstyle needs less of a buff than Seismetoad does.
Seed Flare Mega Sceptile: Even if this weren't my submission I'd be most in favor for it based on this slate. I love Mega Sceptile (BTW, need to replace the .gif up there), but the most frustrating thing about it is being forced out from using Leaf Storm, which is a move it often needs to perform as a revenge killer and adequately tear through bulky Ground and Water types. Seed Flare was the best choice for a good Grass STAB that's similar in power, and honestly the SpD drops are more of a bonus than anything, meaning it can sometimes bust through a bulky switch, but not always. Plenty of things can honestly safely switch into a Seed Flare like Talonflame, Bisharp and Scizor and then threaten it out with their priority. However if it manages to come into an Electric attack and get the +1 boost, it may actually be able to sweep for once. Really, this is the exact thing M-Sceptile needs to perform like it was always meant to, and make it a decent choice for a Mega for once.
Mold Breaker + Fairy typing Azelf: Yeah I get it, free rocks and a counter to M-Sableye. It'd probably be A- worthy or something but I'm not drooling over it either per se.
Drizzle Seismitoed: Unfortunately I think Seismetoad already has two great abilities in Water Absorb and Swift Swim. This buff makes Rain as a playstyle better by picking it over Politoed, but I don't think it necessarily makes Seismetoad specifically better itself, and I think the playstyle needs less of a buff than Seismetoad does.
Seed Flare Mega Sceptile: Even if this weren't my submission I'd be most in favor for it based on this slate. I love Mega Sceptile (BTW, need to replace the .gif up there), but the most frustrating thing about it is being forced out from using Leaf Storm, which is a move it often needs to perform as a revenge killer and adequately tear through bulky Ground and Water types. Seed Flare was the best choice for a good Grass STAB that's similar in power, and honestly the SpD drops are more of a bonus than anything, meaning it can sometimes bust through a bulky switch, but not always. Plenty of things can honestly safely switch into a Seed Flare like Talonflame, Bisharp and Scizor and then threaten it out with their priority. However if it manages to come into an Electric attack and get the +1 boost, it may actually be able to sweep for once. Really, this is the exact thing M-Sceptile needs to perform like it was always meant to, and make it a decent choice for a Mega for once.
Core time!
(will post sets ASAP, but standard Sceptile, spikes+... klifi, and LO Moltres)
(will post sets ASAP, but standard Sceptile, spikes+... klifi, and LO Moltres)
Well I always used to say don't post about the slate unless I have something to add to the discussion. Unfortunately, it's pretty difficult with this slate.
I can see Mega Sceptile really appreciating the increased staying power. My only beef with allowing the speed tiers to creep even more is that we have more and more reliance on priority in the metagame (which I LOATHE). All things said, Sceptile is the only one of these options that will see a change in anything else in the metagame.
On a separate note, I'm glad the council finally has ONE single leader. I always envisioned that being good for the project. Best of luck to you Recreant with running things.
I can see Mega Sceptile really appreciating the increased staying power. My only beef with allowing the speed tiers to creep even more is that we have more and more reliance on priority in the metagame (which I LOATHE). All things said, Sceptile is the only one of these options that will see a change in anything else in the metagame.
On a separate note, I'm glad the council finally has ONE single leader. I always envisioned that being good for the project. Best of luck to you Recreant with running things.
Mold Breaker + Fairy Typing Azelf
Some nice steps towards making Azelf what it aims to be, in the perfect Suicide Lead. It always had the very fast Taunt, and SR going for it, as well as the clutch coverage and hard hitting explosion, but these changes make a lot of subtle changes to counter other popular leads. I think the creation process was basically 'fuck Sableye, fuck stall', and this mission was a success as Fairy STAB smashes Mega Sableye and Mold Breaker breaks Magic Bounce, while Taunt+Nasty Plot plus better STAB makes for a nice stall breaker. But Mega Sableye obviously isn't the only thing you beat now, being able to Taunt lead Mamo is really cool, and Heatran is still a reasonably popular lead so smacking it with Fire Blast is nice. Also Fairy / Fire / Rock coverage is good for more set diversity. I'm really struggling to think of something worth contributing that hasn't already been said though. I guess you beat lead Garchomp easily now. You can OHKO Skarm and Forretress, etc through Sub with Fire Blast. This is pretty cool and makes using Azelf as a suicide lead a lot more appealing, but HO just isn't my style so I'm not really certain how game changing this'll be, especially when the few times I do attempt to use HO I find that spikes stacking is pretty helpful :/
Drizzle Seismitoad
So as discussed this is a hard one to back because it seems like its just a flat upgrade to Politoed. The ability to set up Stealths Rocks and the Electric immunity make it a pretty cool upgrade to Poor Ol' Poli, lets also not forget the sweet utility of Knock Off and the possibility of Drain Punch perhaps being decent for some clutch passive healing (Could be really valuable considering Damp Rock > Leftovers). Also Scald still exists, which is a great tool alongside Seismitoad's respectable 105/75 defence. One thing which I'm not sure has been mentioned is that you can actually run Seismitoad and Politoad together really effectively. This extinguishes the need to a Prankster Rain Dance user as you can just have double Drizzle, with Seismitoad running Def and Poli running SpD. Seismitoad soaks up electric hits and Politoad can take water and ice typed moves better. ToaDuo. Grass resists are easy af to find.
Chlorophyl + Flare Blitz Solrock
This Theorymon makes me really upset. Because the concept is really nice, but, its just, too Solrock. A strong Rock type for Sun types would be really great because it helps with the Talonflame weakness that all Chlorophyl sweepers have, but Solrock with more speed and a pseudo STAB is not a strong Rock type. The two main things holding sun back are the sweepers being weak to Talon and the wallbreakers being weak to SR, while Solrock doesn't make these problems worse, it isn't exactly helping. CB Talon will still 2HKO is Sun with FB, considering I'm assuming you'd be investing some in speed with Chlorophyll and all. If you want an offensive Rock type with some nice utility support, Mega Aerodactyl and Mega Diancie are better. Still shaky vs Talonflame in sun, but have ways to alleviate the SR problems, and still revenge Talon. Solrock is still largely outclassed even with fast Screens and Will-O-Wisp. Rapid Spin would've been a better option than Flare Blitz imo. Solrock has more to work with for sun defensively than offensively, and I think we've taken the wrong path here.
Seed Flare Sceptile
Tbh this is my favorite of the bunch. The other 3 just have really specific niches, the 1st I don't play the style, 2nd the style doesn't need the buff and I feel sorry for Poor Ol' Poli, and the 3rd is Solrock. But anyway Sceptile amirite? Seed Flare is actually a pretty damn substantial buff for Sceptile. Firstly its like the direct opposite of Leaf Storm, rather than dropping your SpA it gives you a pseudo Nasty Plot roughly 40% of the time. Not only does this mean you can stay in but you can force a truck load of switches. Seed Flare + Dragon Pulse + Focus Blast is actually pretty neat coverage, and a SpD drop from Seed Flare can mean that a lot of would be checks will have to run from DP and FB. What I don't think has been mentioned though is that Seed Flare actually gives a lot of utility considering if your opponent doesn't switch out, your next partner has a huge advantage. Its for this reason that I reckon U-Turn could be a cool 4th move for Mega Sceptile, making it a solid and unique offensive pivot. Come in on something you beat. Seed Flare Switch in, Hax the drop, U-Turn to something that can punish the SpD drop, and either get KOs or force more momentum loss for the opponent.
Sceptile is the winner in my books .
Some nice steps towards making Azelf what it aims to be, in the perfect Suicide Lead. It always had the very fast Taunt, and SR going for it, as well as the clutch coverage and hard hitting explosion, but these changes make a lot of subtle changes to counter other popular leads. I think the creation process was basically 'fuck Sableye, fuck stall', and this mission was a success as Fairy STAB smashes Mega Sableye and Mold Breaker breaks Magic Bounce, while Taunt+Nasty Plot plus better STAB makes for a nice stall breaker. But Mega Sableye obviously isn't the only thing you beat now, being able to Taunt lead Mamo is really cool, and Heatran is still a reasonably popular lead so smacking it with Fire Blast is nice. Also Fairy / Fire / Rock coverage is good for more set diversity. I'm really struggling to think of something worth contributing that hasn't already been said though. I guess you beat lead Garchomp easily now. You can OHKO Skarm and Forretress, etc through Sub with Fire Blast. This is pretty cool and makes using Azelf as a suicide lead a lot more appealing, but HO just isn't my style so I'm not really certain how game changing this'll be, especially when the few times I do attempt to use HO I find that spikes stacking is pretty helpful :/
Drizzle Seismitoad
So as discussed this is a hard one to back because it seems like its just a flat upgrade to Politoed. The ability to set up Stealths Rocks and the Electric immunity make it a pretty cool upgrade to Poor Ol' Poli, lets also not forget the sweet utility of Knock Off and the possibility of Drain Punch perhaps being decent for some clutch passive healing (Could be really valuable considering Damp Rock > Leftovers). Also Scald still exists, which is a great tool alongside Seismitoad's respectable 105/75 defence. One thing which I'm not sure has been mentioned is that you can actually run Seismitoad and Politoad together really effectively. This extinguishes the need to a Prankster Rain Dance user as you can just have double Drizzle, with Seismitoad running Def and Poli running SpD. Seismitoad soaks up electric hits and Politoad can take water and ice typed moves better. ToaDuo. Grass resists are easy af to find.
Chlorophyl + Flare Blitz Solrock
This Theorymon makes me really upset. Because the concept is really nice, but, its just, too Solrock. A strong Rock type for Sun types would be really great because it helps with the Talonflame weakness that all Chlorophyl sweepers have, but Solrock with more speed and a pseudo STAB is not a strong Rock type. The two main things holding sun back are the sweepers being weak to Talon and the wallbreakers being weak to SR, while Solrock doesn't make these problems worse, it isn't exactly helping. CB Talon will still 2HKO is Sun with FB, considering I'm assuming you'd be investing some in speed with Chlorophyll and all. If you want an offensive Rock type with some nice utility support, Mega Aerodactyl and Mega Diancie are better. Still shaky vs Talonflame in sun, but have ways to alleviate the SR problems, and still revenge Talon. Solrock is still largely outclassed even with fast Screens and Will-O-Wisp. Rapid Spin would've been a better option than Flare Blitz imo. Solrock has more to work with for sun defensively than offensively, and I think we've taken the wrong path here.
Seed Flare Sceptile
Tbh this is my favorite of the bunch. The other 3 just have really specific niches, the 1st I don't play the style, 2nd the style doesn't need the buff and I feel sorry for Poor Ol' Poli, and the 3rd is Solrock. But anyway Sceptile amirite? Seed Flare is actually a pretty damn substantial buff for Sceptile. Firstly its like the direct opposite of Leaf Storm, rather than dropping your SpA it gives you a pseudo Nasty Plot roughly 40% of the time. Not only does this mean you can stay in but you can force a truck load of switches. Seed Flare + Dragon Pulse + Focus Blast is actually pretty neat coverage, and a SpD drop from Seed Flare can mean that a lot of would be checks will have to run from DP and FB. What I don't think has been mentioned though is that Seed Flare actually gives a lot of utility considering if your opponent doesn't switch out, your next partner has a huge advantage. Its for this reason that I reckon U-Turn could be a cool 4th move for Mega Sceptile, making it a solid and unique offensive pivot. Come in on something you beat. Seed Flare Switch in, Hax the drop, U-Turn to something that can punish the SpD drop, and either get KOs or force more momentum loss for the opponent.
Sceptile is the winner in my books .
This simple buff on Mega Sceptile makes it a lot more threatening because it is not forced to hit and run anymore; luckily it has the same problems of before (lack of actual bulk) bar the SpA drops which hindered its staying power making it a worse/outclassed version of Serperior. Now Sceptile has something to differentiate itself with the possibility to differentiate itself including a 4th move (replacing Giga Drain) such as U-Turn or even Pursuit to deal residual damage while the opportunity cost of using the megaslot for it still remains quite high.
I'm very torn between Sceptile and Faerie Azelf, but probably i'll vote for the Hoenn grass starter because there is no need for the latter pokemon (another threat to Stall, please have mercy) and Sceptile is a mega overshadowed by Serperior -which is a shame- and can make the Poison coverage more useful.
I'm very torn between Sceptile and Faerie Azelf, but probably i'll vote for the Hoenn grass starter because there is no need for the latter pokemon (another threat to Stall, please have mercy) and Sceptile is a mega overshadowed by Serperior -which is a shame- and can make the Poison coverage more useful.
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It's been pretty interesting reading about the presumed thought process for my submission. I actually chose Mold Breaker because it significantly boosted Azelf's offensive coverage against steel types (namely heatran) while still adding to the original role of being a lead. I chose Fairy typing because it allowed Azelf to distinguish itself as a sweeper more readily than a psychic typing, as well as giving teams additional options to handle dark types and steel types (which it does quite well). Believe it or not, I wasn't really focused on crushing Mega Sableye, it just ended up that way XD. Also, I don't play Hyper Offense, but I am aware that fast sweepers who double as stallbreakers are usable outside of hyper offense, so I'm sure Azelf will have a place on more teams than it does now.
The ability Mold Breaker is useful even towards:
(1) Unaware users such as Clefable and Quagsire (Azelf has Nasty Plot)
(2) Avoids Sturdy, Flash Fire and Thick Fat (Mega Venusaur) making fire coverage mandatory
(3) Not only Magic Bounce can't stop Taunt anymore (and Mega Sableye is worn down by both Mold Breaker Taunt and STAB Faerie) but even Mold Breaker Stealth Rock can't be bounced back
Interesting enough, Mold Breaker Azelf has a wonderful speed tier whereas Mega Gyarados has the problem of the opportunity cost and a speed issue alongside Excadrill and Haxorus.
===> it just ended up being a too good anti-Stall pokemon (not a new thing but still...) with two valuable improvements at once; Mega Sceptile with Seed Flare at least wastes the Mega slot and has less actual bulk including resistances and weaknesses.
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