Project OU Theorymon

Hah! Eelektross has an amazing defensive typing combined with Levitate, allowing it to check threats such as MAlt, Clefable, Azumarill, Sand Rush Excadrill (thanks to Flamethrower), Keldeo, Talonflame, etc. Mega Gardevoir does pose as a challenge due to its massive SpA + SE STAB, but that cant be avoided. Choice Specs Sylveon barely 2HKO's with Psyshock, while Gunk Shot is a CLEAN OHKO. I added Gunk so it could threaten the fairies it walls, since they are specially bulky, but then I remembered it had access to Coil, and its immunity to Toxic damage + a powerful STAB option to run can make it a gimicky but effective bulky sweeper, but I agree that its AV set is its best set.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 216-255 (57.7 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eelektross: 97-115 (25.9 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eelektross: 195-231 (52.1 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eelektross: 283-335 (75.6 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Eelektross in Sun: 253-298 (67.6 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

232 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eelektross: 258-306 (68.9 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 71-86 (18.9 - 22.9%) -- possible 5HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 238-280 (63.6 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

180 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 78-94 (20.8 - 25.1%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eelektross: 100-118 (26.7 - 31.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eelektross: 132-156 (35.2 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eelektross: 272-324 (72.7 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 66-79 (17.6 - 21.1%) -- possible 5HKO

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 219-258 (58.5 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-/-/-/-/-/-/-/

4 SpA Eelektross Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 204-242 (59.8 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Eelektross Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 222-264 (68.7 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 SpA Eelektross Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 276-326 (92.9 - 109.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

0 Atk Eelektross Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 190-224 (63.5 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0 Atk Eelektross Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Gardevoir: 398-470 (143.6 - 169.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

4 SpA Eelektross Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 192-228 (53.1 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Its basically a great sponge-er of non supereffective attacks, and tanks hits its not supposed to. Its a great tank.
 
Initial slate thoughts:

Salamence looks pretty good with this change. I think Download might actually make it super bonked with DD. Losing SR weakness is big, gaining useful STAB options is also big. Not 4x weak to Ice is also pretty good for weak stuff like Politoed carrying it to bop stuff or even I think it could survive Weavile if it runs Intimidate.

I can't really say how good Snorlax would become with this change, it'd just do what it has been doing better but idk if improving on that will find room in the meta. I wish you'd also add Gyro Ball on top of this change too that might make this idea better.

The Crobat change is good but not great what it really needs is a way to fight through steels. Give it Fire Fang or something. I don't think this would be enough to make it OU.

Elektross change would make it so close to OU but I don't think it's enough. It is a really great idea though, I could see it fulfilling a niche possibly.
 
Some thoughts on the rest of the slate:

Snorlax as a Steel: this is a buff for it due to the fact it gains an immunity to Poison (both status move and typing) plus a series of resistances with the aid of Thick Fat which removes the Fire ones leaving it only with a weakness to Ground (in a meta where Landorus-T and Garchomp are everywhere) and Fight. Simple but quite effective because Steel is a good defensive typing and even better with Thick Fat. It can be the only Curse user in the entire OU but I don't think this is enough.

Poison/Electric Eelektross with Gunk Shot: I see a moveset with Hone Claws but I don't think these buffs change much for this eel aside from STAB Clear Smog/Gunk Shot. It is still too slow and without priority is prone to be worn down, no matter how good its typing is; Mold Breaker Excadrill and Mega Gyarados stop always this thing. Eelektross is good as another AV user but it seems boring to me and let's remember that Gunk Shot has the same accuracy of Stone Edge without Hone Claws.

Crobat + Intimidate: an Intimidate user with 130 base Spe is nice in my opinion considering its already nice actual bulk, not to mention the fact it checks Serperior very well resisting Grass 4x. I don't like the fact it has a middling damage output even if it runs Adamant with Choice Band (this bat has trouble getting past fat stuff or stuff that resists Flying) but it could be such a good Intimidate user for hyper offence being that fast. I really like it but I think Crobat needs another buff to be more useful.

I'm torn between Eelektross and Crobat and I'd like to see more opinions to decide.
 
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I'll write my thoughts on Snorlax as the idea was coming from me:

Giving Snorlax a Steel-typing instead of a Normal- one patches up two flaws from regular Snorlax: it gives it 10 resistances + one immunity instead of a single immunity and makes it immune to Toxic. As many other people mentioned, a Curse set certainly seems viable. However, when I came up with this idea, I had something else in mind. Equiped with an Assault Vest and Pursuit, Snorlax then becomes an excellent Pursuit-trapper that's able to easily dispose of Lati@s, Starmie, Gengar and (Mega) Alakazam (for the latter three though, Focus Blast has to miss at least once) due to its Steel-typing and nice SpDef stat that's being boosted to further levels by the Assault Vest.

snorlax.gif

Snorlax @ Assault Vest
Ability: Thick Fat
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Def / 4 SpD
- Heavy Slam
- Pursuit
- Earthquake
- Fire Punch

An alternate spread of 252 Atk / 68 Def / 188 SpD can be used to avoid being 2HKOed by LO Zam after SR (but there's probably a more efficient spread though). I guess Wild Charge could be used to deal with Manaphy, Talonflame, Gyarados, Slowking and others, but I think Fire Punch is more valuable (that 10% burn chance can also come in handy at times).
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 202-238 (43.8 - 51.6%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO (63.7% chance to 2HKO after SR, provided FB doesn't miss)
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 188 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 170-202 (36.8 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Snorlax Pursuit (80BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Alakazam: 240-284 (95.6 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (guaranteed OHKO after SR)

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Snorlax: 87-104 (18.8 - 22.5%) -- possible 5HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Latios Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Snorlax: 177-211 (38.3 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Snorlax Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 206-244 (68.8 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Heavy Slam is also an almost guaranteed OHKO after SR and LO recoil)

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 208-247 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO (89.1% chance to 2HKO after SR)
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 188 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 177-211 (38.3 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Snorlax Pursuit (80BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 258-304 (99.6 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO (guaranteed OHKO aftter SR or one LO recoil)

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 156-185 (33.8 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Snorlax Pursuit (80BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Starmie: 194-230 (74.9 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Furthermore, with its new typing, Snorlax can use the same set to act as a decent Fairy check (bar Azumarill), which Tyranitar and Weavile fail to provide as Pursuit-trappers (Bisharp kinda checks Fairies, but it's not the most reliable Fairy check).
+6 0 SpA Clefable Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Thick Fat Snorlax: 152-180 (32.9 - 39%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO (unrealistic scenario)
252+ Atk Snorlax Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 402-474 (102 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

224 SpA Mega Diancie Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 138-164 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- 26.6% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Snorlax Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 708-832 (293.7 - 345.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (high roll crit hax spam hurr durr)

+2 0 Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Snorlax: 159-188 (34.4 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Mega Altaria Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Snorlax: 220-260 (47.7 - 56.3%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO (ouch!)
252+ Atk Snorlax Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mega Altaria: 284-336 (80.4 - 95.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (50% chance to OHKO after SR)
252+ Atk Snorlax Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Altaria: 354-416 (121.6 - 142.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

232 SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 192-226 (41.6 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (14.1% chance to 2HKO after SR)
232 SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 188 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 162-192 (35.1 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Snorlax Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 16 HP / 8 Def Mega Gardevoir: 540-636 (192.1 - 226.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 4 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 116-137 (25.1 - 29.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock (pray you don't get flinched to death)
252+ Atk Snorlax Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 288-338 (77 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Finally, Snorlax would be one of the few Steel-type mons (to not say the only one) that couldn't care less of being trapped by Magnezone since it does pitiful damage to it before being OHKOed by Snorlax's Earthquake:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 148-175 (32.1 - 37.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Snorlax Earthquake vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 380-448 (117.2 - 138.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Anyway, that's all I have to say on Snorlax for now. I'll comment on the others later this week.
 
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The only gripe that I have with AV Steelax is that it is almost directly outclassed in this role by AV Metagross, who isn't reliant on a Focus Blast miss to actually do its job courtesy of the nice neutraly provided by its dual typing. Honestly, I think that the only set that isn't directly outclassed by something else (at least on paper) is CurseLax, which separates itself from stuff like Curse Gastro, BU Talon and I guess BU Conk (although the viability of this set is very much up for debate) with its unique defensive typing (unique both in that the only other viable pure steel mon is MAggron and in the fact that Thick Fat effectively gives it one less weakness to think about). It is why I brought it up in my original post on it, because it carves an interesting niche for itself. Even still though, you could argue that this faces competition from Mega Aggron, who can also use Curse and has all the same options open to it as Snorlax does in addition to Filter. In a vacuum, Mega Aggron is literally a better Steelax. However, Snorlax does have one or two things going for it which make it more viable than Mega Aggron. What it is that sets it apart is its ability to be utilised alongside another mega, such as Mega Venusaur, Mega Sableye or Mega Charizard X, which makes it more splashable on stall and semistall as a result.

How viable it will be, I don't know. But the niche is there - its just not in an AV set.
 
I have to say that -in my opinion- Steel Snorlax can't replace Mega Aggron entirely due to the fact that the latter monster has Stealth Rock on its movepool.

The thing that can redeem Snorlax (despite the lack of a reliable Fight move) is the access to Ice Punch as a lure move to Landorus-T and Garchomp which are huge threats for this fat pokemon or even Zen Headbutt or Thunderpunch (albeit they are more team specific).

Maybe a Substitute + Focus Punch + Leftovers set can work with that nice bulk on the special side but I see huge problem with all this Will o' Wisp spam and that lackluster Spe with lack of priority moves forces out this pokemon very often thus losing boosts (for the Curse set) or momentum.
 
nameless90 said:
I have to say that -in my opinion- Steel Snorlax can't replace Mega Aggron entirely due to the fact that the latter monster has Stealth Rock on its movepool.
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I was comparing it to curse mega aggron - not maggron as a whole. Ik that Aggron does other stuff better, but curse is held back in comparison due to it fitting on teams which prefer another mega. Just me being knitpicky with you here (sorry!), but just wanted to clarify that.
 
gamer boy said:
The only gripe that I have with AV Steelax is that it is almost directly outclassed in this role by AV Metagross, who isn't reliant on a Focus Blast miss to actually do its job courtesy of the nice neutraly provided by its dual typing.
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My main problem with this claim is that mmeta's weakness to ghost and low spdef compared to lax can actually make it much more difficult to wall special attackers with super effective coverage. In fact, snorlax actually tanks Focus Blasts quite well, and mmeta takes much more damage from shadow ball than lax does from fblast because of its lower bulk, so it is much less effective at performing its job, although its psychic typing can help it check fighting types better than snorlax does for sure. A few calcs below show the difference in bulk between the two mons.

Snorlax
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 188 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 182-216 (39.4 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 188 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 177-211 (38.3 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Metagross
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Metagross: 153-182 (42 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Metagross: 226-268 (62 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 188 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 139-165 (30.1 - 35.7%) -- 34.4% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 188 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 180-212 (39 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 188 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 174-205 (37.7 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 188 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 159-187 (34.4 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
96 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 188 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 198-234 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO
 
I want to underline some scenarios about "Steelax":
  • Rotom-W + Rotom-H which are both able to burn it and recover a ton of health with Pain Split
  • Zapdos walls it endlessly
  • Landorus-T and Tankchomp 2HKO it with their main STAB while being 3HKOed but Ice Punch is a thing for Snorlax
  • Mega Charizard X 2HKO it with Earthquake and Flare Blitz (but the latter is not recommended due to the recoil + Earthquake from Snorlax back) ===> impressive feature
  • Snorlax checks Serperior at +6 taking at maximum 60% from Leaf Storm or HP ground which does 74,4%
  • The same is for Manaphy at +6 which does at maximum 76,7% with Surf
===> really strong submission: this bulky fat pokemon eats literally many attackers in the OU meta even though there are still counters to it.
 
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Gonna support my idea by putting a bit of a spotlight on Intimidate Crobat.

Basically the initial idea was to bring Crobat's UU support set up to OU standards as the tier lacks anything similar, the most comparable thing being Stall Breaker Talonflame. You wouldn't think that an SR weak mon with only 85/80/80 bulk and a recoil STAB could have any hope as a defensive pivot, but then you remember that Talonflame pulls it off just fine even though it has it even worse with a 4x SR weakness and only 78/71/69 defences. The saving grace for both of these is great typing and fast recovery, as you can come in on plenty of resisted hits and heal up before the opponent attacks as if the SR and recoil never happened.

In the role of a pivot however, Crobat is actually far more bulky than Talonflame, and many other defensive mons in fact, thanks to Intimidate. The fast U-Turn makes Crobat an extremely good user of Intimidate, as you can come in on Physical attackers with relative ease and proceed to wear them down between Brave Bird and Roost, then when they switch to another pokemon not crippled by Intimidate, you can just U-Turn out before it attacks you. Or you can come in for the Atk drop on something you are still weak against, and instantly U-Turn to something that can take the now crippled pokemon.This means you can play around to always maintain momentum and keep yourself in situations where you can continue to win match ups.

However Crobat has a decent amount of options, another good one being Defog, the set I would use is this:

Crobat @ Black Sludge
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 124 Def / 136 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- U-Turn
- Roost
- Taunt

The spread maximises physical bulk while maintaining enough speed to out speed maxed base 115s like Raikou and Starmie, so that you can U-Turn out before being KOed by Thunderbolt or Psyshock respectively. Brave Bird allows you to put out respectable damage uninvested thanks to its high base power at 120. U-Turn is to maintain momentum when the matchup changes, and Roost is of course essential to stay healthy. Taunt allows Crobat to stall break rather effectively, particularly vs threats like Mega Venusaur, and allows you to prevent boosting as many of the pokemon Crobat checks can run Swords Dance or Dragon Dance.

So you get that Crobat has the makings to be an effective defensive pivot, but if you still question how much it's bulk will actually be able to achieve with Intimidate, here is a list of the pokemon Crobat can check;

GSI: Clefable, CB Azumaril, Excadrill, Garchomp, Landorus-T, Mega Lopunny, Mega Altaria, Gliscor, Serperior, Mega Venusaur, Breloom, Mega Heracross, Mega Beedrill, Hawlucha, CB Scizor, Scolipede, Toxicroak.

SSI: Hoopa U (comes in on anything other than Psychic and OHKOs with U-Turn), Mega Pinsir (Switches in on anything but only KOs if Pinsir has taken 25% {Pre Mega SR}). With the following pokemon, Crobat can switch in on any move other than boosting moves (SD, DD, NP, etc), if it gets in before they set up it can Taunt them and win the match up: Mega Scizor, Gyarados, Mega Gyarados, Togekiss, Lucario.

These lists are obviously incomplete but there is some pretty nice stuff in there. Also note that a lot of these pokemon are often hard to check Wall/Stall breakers, so this could earn Crobat a nice little spot in Semi Stall teams, acting as a pivot and Stall Breaker itself.

In summary, Intimidate Crobat is a decently powerful pivot with the bulk, typing and speed to be a consistent and reliable check to a myriad of Fairy, Fighting, Ground, Grass, Bug and Poison Types. It is extremely good at grabbing and maintaining momentum, and can also act as a strong Stall Breaker with Taunt.


If I get another chance this week I'll try make a post about Eelektross, maybe even a core, as it was a goldy back in the Alexwolf thread.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that Poison Fang can be run over U-Turn for a more effective Stall Breaker set, as it is particularly useful for murdering Mega Sableye.
 
Something interesting about Crobat is that its speed tier is insane. It can also easily sacrifice bulk in order to outpace fast mons (e.g. Weavile (a spread of 22 HP / 252 Atk / 12 SpD / 212 Spe outpaces while maximising power and overall bulk w/ Intimidate), which is more useful now that it has Intimidate to back it up and alleviate the Ice Shard weakness a little - allowing bat to RK it provided it has more than 50% health (-1 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 28 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 133-156 (41.8 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO)). Its matchup v.s. both offense and stall is improved by Intimidate tbh due to its sweet speed tier and solid movepool, which is why it sound rather solid after a little thought (tbh I kinda dismissed it before but it seems pretty decent overall in hindsight).
 
The explanations provided by Isa Simple are really helpful to me to understand why Intimidate Crobat can be strong in the OU environment and I have to say that both Steel Snorlax and Eelektross aren't -in my humble opinion- "fair" nominations because we dindn't need others Fairy checks that are able to hit them back that hard. At least Crobat, despite being itself a Fairy check, has to rely on Brave Bird which hinders its health.

I'm leaning towards voting Intimidate Crobat because both Snolax and Eelektross are other AV users and not much else whereas Crobat can go offensive like now with Choice Band.

The only downside of Crobat is the inability to run Poison Fang (towards bulky waters and grouds without Rest thanks to that good 50% chance to badly poison the target) or Super Fang to deal properly towards bulky threats because it has basically no room for other moves.
 
gamer boy said:
Something interesting about Crobat is that its speed tier is insane. It can also easily sacrifice bulk in order to outpace fast mons (e.g. Weavile (a spread of 22 HP / 252 Atk / 12 SpD / 212 Spe outpaces while maximising power and overall bulk w/ Intimidate), which is more useful now that it has Intimidate to back it up and alleviate the Ice Shard weakness a little - allowing bat to RK it provided it has more than 50% health (-1 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 28 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 133-156 (41.8 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO)). Its matchup v.s. both offense and stall is improved by Intimidate tbh due to its sweet speed tier and solid movepool, which is why it sound rather solid after a little thought (tbh I kinda dismissed it before but it seems pretty decent overall in hindsight).
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Slight nitpick, but Crobat needs 216 Spe to outpeed Weavile, not that it really matters.

nameless90 said:
The explanations provided by Isa Simple are really helpful to me to understand why Intimidate Crobat can be strong in the OU environment and I have to say that both Steel Snorlax and Eelektross aren't -in my humble opinion- "fair" nominations because we dindn't need others Fairy checks that are able to hit them back that hard. At least Crobat, despite being itself a Fairy check, has to rely on Brave Bird which hinders its health.

I'm leaning towards voting Intimidate Crobat because both Snolax and Eelektross are other AV users and not much else whereas Crobat can go offensive like now with Choice Band.

The only downside of Crobat is the inability to run Poison Fang (towards bulky waters and grouds without Rest thanks to that good 50% chance to badly poison the target) or Super Fang to deal properly towards bulky threats because it has basically no room for other moves.
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Crobat's my favorite pokemon, so I'll probably vote for him, but offensive sets won't become anymore viable with Intimidate. He still can't touch steel types outside of using a gimmicky Heat Wave, and Poison Fang isn't worth the move slot. Toxic is straight up better outside of trying to cheese Mega Sableye, especially considering TankChomp (one of Toxic's main targets) takes away 1/4 of your health if your using Poison Fang. 90% > 50% + minuscule damage.
 
So pretty light on this week between holidays so had time to throw together what I think could be a pretty neat core.

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Eelektross @ Black Sludge
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Coil
- Gunk Shot
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off

Houndoom @ Houndoominite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Dark Pulse
- Nasty Plot
- Will-O-Wisp

No fancy spread for either of them but if you put some effort in I'm sure they can be improved to beat certain threats. Houndoom maxes out speed and SpA to hit hard and fast with its powerful dual STAB which can be boosted by Nasty Plot. Will-O-Wisp cripples its most common switch ins vs offence helping out itself and the team. Eelektross' spread maxes out SpD to make it as overall bulky as possible once it starts boosting with Coil. Gone with Gunk Shot as the STAB option because it's a buff and has epic synergy with Coil so I'd feel silly not using it on a this set. Drain Punch and Black Sludge give a solid amount of passive recovery to stick around as long as possible. Knock Off is being used over Thunder Punch for better 3 move coverage (only resisted by Toxicroak) and epic utility.
Main idea of this core is just to combine a stall breaker with an offence breaker while having good synergy between the pair.
Figured Eelektross was gonna be naturally really good against stall due to usable bulk and it's typing giving Toxic and Paralysis immunity, as well as great resistances giving it a naturally good match ups vs tonnes of bulky and stall mons. So I decided to press this by running a Coil set so that Eelektross can set up on and roll through bulkier builds. Mega Houndoom was my choice of offence breaker because of Flash Fire Pre Mega and just it's Fire Typing in general making it immune to Burns, finishing off the most important status immunities and covering for Eelektross' huge weakness to Will-O-Wisp. Mega Houndoom also doubles up as a balance breaker thanks to it's speed and Nasty Plot being able to out pace fast mons and break through bulky mons. So together you already have some useful tools vs whatever play style you come up against.

The two have decent type synergy with Eelektross' Levitate covering for Houndoom's Ground weakness, as well the added Poison typing resisting Fighting. Meanwhile Houndoom is immune to Psychic. But they cover each others checks and counters really nicely. Many pokemon capable of switching into or revenge killing Houndoom are either checked or beaten 1v1 by Eelektross, including; Garchomp, Azumaril, Scarf Keldeo, Terrakion, Tyranitar, Garchomp, Togekiss, Mega Altaria, Mega Aerodactyl, Excadrill (Sand Rush), Breloom, Conkeldurr, Mega Lopunny, Tornadus-T, Thundurus-I, Mega Diancie, Chansey, Etc. In fact we come close to just about every Mega Houndoom check being at least beaten 1v1 by Eelektross.
In return Mega Houndoom is capable of dismantling offensive threats that put massive pressure on Eelektross, and beats some of the stall mons that Eelektross struggles against. In particular it destroys Mega Sableye, which gives Eelektross a lot of trouble between Will-O-Wisp and immunity to Drain Punch. Also Houndoom spreads burns to its common switch ins which in turn provides set up opportunities for the Eel.

Off the top of my head, the core greatly struggles against Scald and Scarfed Excadrill/Kyurem-Black. Scald due to Eelektross being super vulnerable to Burns and Mega Houndoom being fragile and weak to the move, and the two scarfers to due to hitting both super effectively with Mold Breaker/Teravolt ground moves. Hence perhaps Slowbro may be a decent partner due to its ability to patch up these weaknesses reasonably well by itself.
 
Tbh that core with m-man over m-doom could make for a scary elecspam core.

Also lop+Aoa eel w/ giga+bolt+gunk+volt sounds sweet due to eel covering fairies+skarm+m-zor for lop and lop covering a ferrotran and tyranitar for eel.

Something i like about drain punch eel is that it gives offense a solid check to sand offense that isnt called lando or washtom (immune to quake, resists iron head). This is a big perk and why it is currently my pick. If it became good/common sand may start running Stoutland to act as a secondary sand sweeper/wallbreaker that doesn't struggle v.s. Eel too much. CB return/retaliate puts a dent in it and could probably leave it in range of exca's rock slide.
 
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No love for Salamence?
I updated my post on page 25 to show the usefulness of STAB Return towards some pokemon of the OU environment with a simple set (Jolly + 252 Atk/252 Spe + Life Orf with Download) so I think they are worth to be considered as a "coverage move" with 100% accuracy.

Even Intimidate is really nice with Normal/Dragon Salamence because:

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Normal/Dragon Salamence: 152-180 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (and Salamence can use Roost)

-1 244+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Normal/Dragon Salamence: 174-206 (52.5 - 62.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

In my opinion this is really good (considering they are both powerful Ice Shard users) considering that Salamence has access to Roost to recover the HP lost ===> Salamence is perfectly viable as a bulky Defogger or an offensive Defogger not weak to Pursuit trappers (thus differentiating from Lati@s) and not weak to Stealth Rock (i.e. Mandibuzz) ===> this is a nice niche not even that small.
====> Salamence is a very dynamic pokemon now with a typing which enables it the possibility to run offensive and defensive sets and it is a Defogger with mixed offensive capabilities.

Isa Simple said:
So pretty light on this week between holidays so had time to throw together what I think could be a pretty neat core.
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+
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Nice and effective core that is annihilated by Bulky Spinner Excadrill with Mold Breaker and Mega Gyarados with Earthquake but Will o' Wisp can neuter even them.
 
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Actually, the eeldoom core with wisp+sd talon over doom too sounds sweet too. it can still wisp and it destroys offense even harder while also improving the stall matchup significantly at the cost of power. Wisp talon and eel have nice synergy too, which helps :)

Also bulky driller is kinda bad in OU and I doubt one probably b-rank mon would change that, so I don't see how losing to it is all that much of a problem (not to mention doom wins 1v1).
 
gamer boy said:
Also bulky driller is kinda bad in OU and I doubt one probably b-rank mon would change that, so I don't see how losing to it is all that much of a problem (not to mention doom wins 1v1).
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4 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Houndoom: 306-360 (105.1 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This means that even burned Excadrill 2HKOes Mega Houndoom (with minimum roll) which ultimately can lose due to the damage output of Fire Blast bar burn damage (6%):
252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Excadrill: 356-422 (83.9 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The same happens with Mega Gyarados:
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Houndoom: 356-422 (122.3 - 145%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Houndoom: 296-350 (101.7 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This means that even burned Mega Gyarados 2HKOes Mega Houndoom (with minimum roll) which ultimately loses due to the damage output of Fire Blast/Dark Pulse

This core still remains very good albeit I don't think wasting the Megaslot for Houndoom is really worth the risk most of the time due to the risk of having a Mega with basically "no ability" to use.
 
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nameless90 said:
This core still remains very good albeit I don't think wasting the Megaslot for Houndoom is really worth the risk most of the time due to the risk of having a Mega with basically "no ability" to use.
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Doom does get Rattled so that's a lot better than Solar Power at least. I do agree that Houndoom wouldn't be my first pick for this slot, especially when stuff like Moltres and Entei are so good in this meta. It's not like the Dark typing really helps you a lot either, the only two Psychic types that are gonna be switching into that set safely are Jirachi and Metagross, and Jirachi only runs Psychic coverage on Scarf anyways so Elektross is more of a Jirachi switch in than anything else.


Ok time to post my thoughts on my favorite two mons from this slate.

I love Mence just due to how flexible it is with these buffs. Dragon / Normal typing, for starters, is awesome. You've got exactly one mutual resistance in Steel, which Mence has coverage for. This makes Mence one of the few Dragon types that can't be reliably answered by Fairy types thanks to STAB Return, Double Edge, and Hyper Voice, which in and of itself is pretty good. Download itself is absolutely terrifying, I'm actually a little apprehensive now because I haven't found anything that can reliably switch into MixMence when you consider that it can potentially get +1 in either offense (hey genesect). The good news is that Intimidate and Moxie are still both great abilities and that Normence still has ways of making them work. The bulky Defog set, for example, is a little better against Rocks, although being grounded makes clearing Spikes a little less nice so there's that to consider. With the improved typing, there's also opportunities for Band and Specs sets to flex a little, so we might see a bit of that running around. Moxie DD sets are also still pretty sweet with the new typing. The weakness to Mach Punch makes Mence fear Breloom more, but the good news is that it doesn't just die to Weavile's Ice Shard anymore and doesn't have to lock itself into Outrage in order to do damage. Anyways this is a huge buff for Mence and if it passes it'll be a top tier threat for sure.

Crobat's probably gonna get my vote for this one. It's not an incredible offensive presence, but rather a bulky pivot, similar to Landorus-T. The two are actually pretty similar, being able to bring hazard control, okay bulk backed by Intimidate, U-Turn, a good STAB typing, and a reasonable offensive presence (at least for bulky sets, Crobat's not keeping up with offensive Lando-T in damage. It is worth noting that Crobat does have more base attack than Talonflame though). I think Crobat has a lot of potential as both a defogger and a stallbreaker. The Defog set that Isa Simple posted earlier is probably a good start for a standard set. Defog + Taunt is actually really neat because not only is Crobat able to remove hazards, it's able to deny the setters as well, which is a unique combination and might be pretty useful. As far as stallbreaking is concerned, Crobat also has access to Super Fang, which when paired with Taunt and Roost, allows Crobat to rip off huge portions of health and prevent them from healing back up. Offensive sets seem shaky since Crobat doesn't have much coverage on the physical side and is really weak on the special side, but perhaps they might find a small niche. All in all I find Crobat to be really unique and practical.

Snorlax and Elektross both look pretty good but I'm not as hyped for them as I am for the other two.
 
hi all <:
It's time for voting! Please remember to follow the procedure (keep it easy on the nicknames for submissions too, makes it a lot harder to count)

Here are the options:
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+ Dragon / Normal-typing and Download
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+ Steel-type (replaces Normal-type)
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+ Intimidate
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+ Electric / Poison-typing and Gunk Shot

Here are the honorable mentions you're allowed to vote for:
- Infernape + Prankster
- Tornadus + Competitive
- Typhlosion + Drought
- Spiritomb + Dark Aura
- Mega Tyranitar + Sand Force
- Mega Garchomp + Weak Armor
- Electric / Dark Thundurus-T
- Miltank + Ground-type
- Mesprit + Download and Judgment
- Azelf + Fairy-typing (replaces Psychic-typing) and Mold Breaker
Click to expand...

Good luck to the submissions!

My vote:
Crobat + Intimidate

Honorable Mention: Electric / Dark Thundurus-T
 
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