Project OU Theorymon

Hey all, sorry for taking so long with this slate (it was a lot longer than usual, sorry. I was meant to post this earlier but our power was out for most of the day today), but we have our winner!

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+ Prankster and Nature Power!

Votes:

Prankster and Nature Power Meloetta: 21
Fighting / Electric and Close Combat Electivire: 12
Poison / Fighting and Mach Punch Gallade: 2
Ghost/Steel typing and Recover Cofagrigus: 1


This slate will be:
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Fire / Fairy-typing and Flamethrower
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+ Flare Boost and Water / Dragon-typing
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+ Thick Fat
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+ Trick Room and U-turn

Have fun discussing, we also have some exciting news coming up so keep an eye out for that :]
 
Wait Bug Knight doesnt get U-Turn?

Anyways right off the bat Escavalier is looking like a heavy contender in this slate. Trick Room alone gives it a major buff as it can easily run an OTR set to clean offence. U-Turn makes for a slow (or fast ;-) pivot to bring in a teammate. Clear favourite.

Chesnaught looks nice also, and is a much better thick fat grass type than say, another previous winner.

The others I dont like.
 
Recreant said:
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Ghost/Steel typing and Recover Cofagrigus: 1
Click to expand...

AYYYYY


Anyway this'll be post 500 so I best make it count for more than that. Let's have a look.


Fire / Fairy Sylveon + Flamethrower:
Ok so usually I'm not the one to comment on this sorta stuff but this really bothers me flavour wise. Like you've got the whole monotyped Eeveelution thing which doesn't usually bother me as much as others, but that only adds to the fact the Fire typing just seems 100% pulled out of nothing. I mean look at the thing! There isn't a single thing that could possibly make you think in a million years "That could be a Fire type," none of the dex entries have anything to do with anything similar to Fire. Hell, even the fact that we're having to add Flame Thrower because Sylveon doesn't learn any Fire moves other than Sunny Day is a pretty big indicator that this thing isn't supposed to have any associations with Fire.
The OP reads:
"Those changes should at the very least not contradict flavor. They don’t have to fit a Pokemon’s flavor perfectly, but don’t suggest a secondary Fire-type for Grass-types for example."
To me this is pretty darn close to "contradicting" flavor. We may as well be throwing Fire typing around to various Grass types, that's how much it doesn't make sense on Sylveon.
At the very least do me a favour and list it as Fairy / Fire. I know this was likely the intention but at a glance to think that Sylveon could be primarily Fire typing really bothers me.
Anyway I hope people will see this and you won't get a million rants about flavour, considering it seems to be always becoming less and less relevant, but I just had to.

It's a shame though because realistically Fire / Fairy Sylveon is pretty interesting. Fairy typing has always been pretty cool with those epic resistances to Fighting, Dark and Bug alongside that sweet Dragon Immunity, so to remove that Steel weakness and add resistances to Fire, Grass, Ice and Fairy seems pretty nice. I am however very worried about adding weakness to Ground, Rock and Water. I mean Sylveon's defence has always been piss poor, but with the addition of those weaknesses, anything running Earthquake or Stone Edge coverage is just going to straight up end you every time, which severely limits what Sylveon can come/stay in on. Especially when you consider you have to deal with an SR weakness now.
Its a real shame because had Earthquake in particular not been such common coverage Sylveon would actually have far better match ups against a lot of strong pokemon, such a Mega Charizard X and Mega Altaria. It also loses the ability to check a lot of things such as Mega Diancie.
Still you do gain a nice lot of cool things. Sylveon is now a bloody good check to Weavile, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Gardevoir and various KyuB sets (without SR vs KyuB).

So there is some merit to defensive sets to check specific wall breakers for a stall team, but the main buff is certainly to the Specs set. The extra STAB allows you to break almost all of Sylveon's previous checks and common switch ins, such as; (Mega) Metagross, Excadrill, Mega Aggron, Ferrothorn, (Mega) Scizor, Skarmory, Jirachi, Klefki, Bronzong, Doublade and Roserade. Plus most of these Situational Switch Ins were generally all riding on whether Sylveon was running HP Ground or HP Fire, but now that you have STAB Flamethrower, you can run HP Ground every single time, meaning all those pesky Fire types that resist your STABs are never safe. Lastly Psyshock will round you out to beat Stallbreaker Talonflame and Tentacruel. There are veeery few safe switch ins to this thing. Luckily due to the SR weakness and other added weakness it is now easier to revenge kill than ever.

Water / Dragon Milotic + Flare Boost:
So the first thing jumping to mind is that this will be an EPIC check to Water Spout and Eruption mons in Inheritance! No ok but serious, Water/Dragon is pretty sweet typing for a Specially Defensive mon, with 4x resistances to big hitting Special wall breaker moves like Fire Blast and Hydro Pump, as well as being neutral to almost all coverage. Its two weaknesses are very rare coverage and can generally be spotted a mile away, making it a pretty safe and easy mon to use. I mean with 95/125 SpD fully invested, you can be pretty confident that you won't be dying to any special attackers other than those dropping the big ol Draco Meteors and Pixilated Hyper Voices, but they aren't exactly gonna catch you by surprise. What's cool though is that Psyshock actually isn't that scary, because you can take it from weaker users like Starmie, and the other most common users are freaking Mega Gardevoir and Latios, which have other means of ripping you apart anyway. Very few special attackers can break this thing.
So now we have a reliable blanket check to pretty much all fast but weak Special attackers, that is also capable of taking on some really nasty wall breakers such as Mega Charizard Y, Thundurus, Omastar, Tornadus, Gengar, and Nidoking.

Flare Boost is an interesting option. Its a pretty hefty special attack boost, turning many 3HKOs on frail special attackers into 2HKOs.
0 SpA Milotic Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Manectric: 109-130 (38.7 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Flare Boost Milotic Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Manectric: 165-195 (58.7 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
As a result I reckon it makes Milotic an epic switch in to Scalds, taking approximately 0 damage from them and turning the burn into a substantial power boost, whilst mitigating most of the damage with left overs.
There is also of course the increased merit of offensive sets. With Flame Orb giving you pretty much a Specs boost while still being able to switch moves, on top of Hydro Pump's great bp and your decent 100 SpA.
252+ SpA Flare Boost Milotic Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Mew: 181-214 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Also 81 speed when invested isn't half bad from a mon of that power.
Basically I see the two sets either maxing out HP/SpD or SpA/Spe, running Scald/Hydro Pump + Ice Beam, Dragon Pulse and Recover, then abusing its ability either via tanking Scalds or running Flame Orb.
Cool mon.

Chesnaught + Thick Fat:
I don't know how feel about this one, I just feel like it doesn't make an awfully large difference. Like any grass type with Thick Fat, it makes it a nice check to Electric types like Mega Manectric, but outside of that not a lot, and there are already sooo many good/better electric checks. I guess it makes Chesnaught a strong Weavile counter, but most Fire and Ice types are special attackers, and have either and strong secondary STAB or coverage options that'll 2HKO you anyway, in fact real worries like Mega Zard Y and Kyurem Black OHKO you anyway. Another pro is you match up better vs bulky waters as they often run Ice Beam, but even then you don't really wanna be taking Scalds. Just like you check Entei now, but don't really wanna risk a SF Burn if you can avoid. It just over all doesn't seem like it would drastically change anything, and I mean Chesnaught decent in OU. You just gain a handful of slightly better match ups, and lose your cool Bullet proof immunities.

Escavalier + Trick Room and U-Turn:
Not an awful lot to say about this one either tbh. Like at the end of the day Trick Room is arguably viable already, but its just too difficult to make it work reliably and consistently in such an offensive meta. Besides good Trick setters aren't that big an issue as much as just setting it up in general, using a Trick Room team is essentially trying to use a rain team without Politoad or Damp Rock, its just very difficult to pull off and comes with a lot of cost. Beside Escavalier however it would be a good Trick Room setter, it doesn't stand out as something that would be "The Ideal Trick Room Setter," its just another option if you feel like challenging yourself. Basically I just think that the addition of Trick Room will just end up being a mute point, that never actually sees much competitive usage, if any. That said though, I suppose I'm probably looking at this the wrong way because I just want TR teams to be viable more than anything in order to spice up the meta. I suppose as a stand alone cleaner it actually has the potential to be a really good cleaner vs offence. Similar to Hoopa Confined, coming in on a weakened team late game and using its bulk to take a hit and set up TR, before wiping out the rest of the opposition with powerful STABs.
U-Turn however is cool, but its not exactly new. In fact I'm almost certain that there have been at least one instance in the past where Escavalier has been slated with U-Turn and another buff, if not two. But yes a slow bulky mon with a hard hitting U-Turn would be a fantastic pivoting tool.
So basically this'd be a cool mon late game to either safely bring in a cleaner or set up sweeper via Slow U-Turn, or clean itself with Trick Room and Mega Horn + Iron Head nuking things to death.

My vote will probably go to either Milotic or Escavalier.
 
The problem with Milotic is EASILY worn down due to its reliance on being burn to have a significant damage output, and its still physically frail. Sure Water/Dragon defensive typing is sweet, but its still not enough.
 
Fire / Fairy Sylveon + Flamethrower:
Although it is pretty interesting competively, I won't talk about it or vote it because seems to contradict the flavour. This is my opinion.

Water / Dragon Milotic + Flare Boost:
This is a strange buff. While I dislike Flare Boost, I really appreciate the change in typing. Now Milotic is weak to Dragon + Fairy and now can use a STAB Dragon Pulse or Dragon Tail depending on the set. Competitive over Flare Boost is still the superior choice both in Singles and Doubles to preserve the good natural bulk of this pokemon. I don't know why Milotic isn't Water / Fairy but it makes sense even Water / Dragon, so it's ok flavour wise.

Chesnaught + Thick Fat:
Nice because Thick Fat provides some mindgames with its other regular ability (Bulletproof) which I think is better to have some immunities. I don't think that this change is enough to make Chestnaught more viable; maybe another buff to it was needed to define better its new niches.

Escavalier + Trick Room and U-Turn:
Not bad by any means. Now we can have a bulky Trick Room setter not weak to Ghost or Dark attacks (i.e. Knock Off), immune to powder moves thanks to Overcoat and the addition of STAB U-turn is good to preserve momentum under Trick Room while dishing out damage. Too bad it is:
(1) still prone to opposite Will o' Wisps, so it is forced to run Facade o to be switched often in order to avoid being ruined offensively;
(2) unable to run Assault Vest alongside Trick Room;
(3) still without attacking priority moves to get some kills outside the Trick Room.

A good thing is that Escavalier can forget to be used as an attacker preferring a bulky utility set i.e:
(Theorymon Tank set)
Escavalier @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 248 HP / the remaining EVs in Def and in the SpD
- U-Turn (theorymon move)
- Iron Head
- Knock Off (useful even when burned)
- Trick Room (theorymon move)
Now it has a nice niche over Scizor, which normally is its natural replacement because they share the same typing ===> Escavalier can be a good C-rank pokemon (the same rank of Rotom-H).


My vote will probably go to Milotic due to the combination of typing + movepool available, which can be worthy of B rank in my opinion.
 
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Fairy/Fire Sylveon
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Honestly thought, I can get behind the idea why you wanted to use this typing since Fairy/Fire has a set of resistances which can mess with common threats. However, I feel that it just doesn't fit on Sylveon, because there is literary no piece of flavour which could possibly even barely justify that fire type. That type combination would work better on Ninetails or Delphox because it would actually fit there better flavourwise.

U-Turn/TR Escavalier
Now this is something which sounds kinda interesting. Escavalier has Megahorn, which gives it more raw power than than Scizor and Drill Run, which makes switching in for fire types somewhat riskier. Being able to use a slow U-Turn now allows it to grab monumentum and it is usefull if you want to bring in frail stuff like Weavile. Trick Room on the other hand allows it to clean lategame and because of it's nice bulk and typing, the only priority user it really fears it Talonflame. Also, there is really nothing relevant in OU which is actually slower than Escavalier and can actually harm it, so it is really hard to revenge kill.

Milotic
That seems like a simple defensive buff which fits flavourvise, it looks like a seasnake after all. I don't think Flare Boost would be used at all, thought. Sure, that free Specs look nice but that chip damage is bad and really hampers it's nice natural bulk. It would propably be used with Competetive and would propably run a simple set of Scald, Dragon Tail, Recover and a filler move.
 
Theorymon, for me at least, is an opportunity to break the game and experiment with new typings and synergies. When I'm thinking about a potential theorymon, my thoughts are about how exactly it might work. I'm considering it's niche in the meta, how effective and useful it might be, potential cores it could form and how it would fit into teams, and of course if it would be end up seeing use. In this case, we have Fairy / Fire typing on Sylveon. Sylveon is already an ok offensive mon in OU, so the idea is to ask "Does Fire help Sylveon offensively, or does the new typing hurt it more than it helps?"

You'll notice that I don't mention flavour in my little list at all. Frankly, flavour is something I don't bother considering when thinking up ideas, and it's not something I weigh when voting. Flavour matters in-game (not that Game Freak does a great job with that in the first place, explain Ice Punch Wooper to me please), but this is a competitive forum intended for discussion of simulator play. More importantly, OU Theorymon is not the place to try to make your favorite Pokemon relevant or to push your fanmons into existence, but to generate some new ideas and hopefully inspire a fun and creative meta. It's disappointing to see people ignore or refuse to consider something that might have an interesting effect on said gameplay, especially if it's based on assumptions of what a Pokemon should be. We have metal birds, water horses, sentient washing machines... It shouldn't be that much of a stretch that the magical cat can now shoot fire. The whole project is based on changing a Pokemon for the sake of improving it, and we should not be afraid of changing it "too much" based on some artwork and a little flavour text.

Will probably post my full thoughts on this slate later, just felt that this needed to be addressed before we go any further.

-approved by Recreant
 
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