Other OverUsed General Discussion

[Photofluid]

Lately I have been noticing a rapid surge of M-Pinsir users, especially higher up on the ladder. It seems like people are figuring out that even unboosted Aerilate Return deals ridiculous amounts of damage. The SD set is so powerful because it gives you every tool you would possibly need to sweep: usable priority (quick attack), powerful STAB, and nearly unresisted coverage with EQ. If the Pinsir user can grab a boost, an action which isn't difficult with all the conkledurrs to set up on, then they can easily tear through a team just by spamming Return. Talonflame is a nice check, but cannot switch in directly to any STAB moves. The only viable counters to M-Pinsir are Skarmory, Zapdos, the Rotoms, and bulky Aegislash. However, Aegislash doesn't like taking repeated earthquakes and can't OHKO unless Pinsir has taken SR damage. Rotom can also be bypassed if Pinsir opts to stay in it's normal form and use Mold Breaker EQ. M-Pinsir truly is a devastating pokemon, quite frankly I am surprised I am not seeing more usage of it.

people just need time to figure out that they don't really need close combat on the flying bug and pick up both Quick Attack and Return combined with EQ instead. To resist both fly and earth you need to have fly type as one of your typing, which also happen to resist CC. And there are not that many levitate rocks and steels around. CC only does like 20% extra damage in those scenario, one must really question if it worths the slot of a priority move, or a move which deals >60% extra damage in every other scenario.

And SR is also less an issue than one may expect, as you only take 1/4 when you first switch in (ofc it would be better to have it gone) as normal form.

It does get checked by both TF and Rotom-W though, and the two of them are just everywhere......

 

[hobo bob]

people just need time to figure out that they don't really need close combat on the flying bug and pick up both Quick Attack and Return combined with EQ instead. To resist both fly and earth you need to have fly type as one of your typing, which also happen to resist CC. And there are not that many levitate rocks and steels around. CC only does like 20% extra damage in those scenario, one must really question if it worths the slot of a priority move, or a move which deals >60% extra damage in every other scenario.

Agreed. The only thing Close Combat is useful for is hitting some steels a bit harder and hitting Rotom for neutral. But earthquake takes care of most steels and rocks already, so the coverage is redundant. Quick attack is far far far more useful since you get a priority attack that packs a punch. You still won't beat Talonflame, but it gives you a chance to beat Genesect and other scarfs.

It does get checked by both TF and Rotom-W though, and the two of them are just everywhere......

Yea TF is always a pain, but if you can keep rocks up then he is losing half his HP per switch in. Rotom can easily be worn down through chip damage, either from Wil-o-Wisp or SR, and then taken out once it's in KO range. Also you can take it out with Mold Breaker Earthquake before you Mega in case you couldn't weaken it.

 

[Photofluid]

Agreed. The only thing Close Combat is useful for is hitting some steels a bit harder and hitting Rotom for neutral. But earthquake takes care of most steels and rocks already, so the coverage is redundant. Quick attack is far far far more useful since you get a priority attack that packs a punch. You still won't beat Talonflame, but it gives you a chance to beat Genesect and other scarfs.




Yea TF is always a pain, but if you can keep rocks up then he is losing half his HP per switch in. Rotom can easily be worn down through chip damage, either from Wil-o-Wisp or SR, and then taken out once it's in KO range. Also you can take it out with Mold Breaker Earthquake before you Mega in case you couldn't weaken it.

Well, what I emphasis here is that having troubles against meta pokemons is a huge deal, that's it.

 

[alexwolf]

I have to agree with everyone that Mega Pinsir is ridiculously effective. As an offensive Pokemon, it has pretty much anything it wants to succeed: immediate power, set up potential, powerful priority, great initial Speed, and great neutral and super effective coverage (Flying + Ground hit 7 types for super effective damage). It's only real downside is its lack of immunity to status and weakness to many common moves, which can make it somehow challenging to set up sometimes, but this is not such a big issue as even without set up Mega Pinisr is a force to be reckoned with. The amount of pressure it puts on teams to keep their check/counter alive is ridiculous and makes the opponent pretty predictable, as if they don't bring in their check/counter to Mega Pinsir then something is going to die, simple as that. Talonflame being such a good Pokemon definitely helps check Mega Pinsir, but keeping SR up and forcing Talonflame to die from recoil by revenge killing other sweepers is not that difficult. Or you can just use Rocky Helmet bulky Garchomp and see Talonflame dying even without using any recoil move.

Mega Pinsir is definitely the first Pokemon that i would like to see suspect tested.

WARNING: Don't use this post as an excuse to whine about Mega Pinsiri's brokeness. If you want to say something, back it up with intelligent and discussion promoting arguments, not mindless statements. I will be heavily moderating this thread, so be careful if you want to post regarding Mega Pinsir's potential brokeness.

 

[effyouzion]

Mega pinsir is outran by a lot of things that its priority won't OHKO and is fragile as fuck on the special side. Any special attacker who can take a hit will usually KO, too. He's a good nuke, but he needs a lot of team support to be used effectively. I think he's manageable, more so than Lucario who doesn't need much at all to sweep.

 

[Tesung]

But mega pinsir has so much more physical bulk, allowing it to even take a hit from cb azumarill and set up it's also much harder to find flying resists than fighting resists. Both are obviously amazing mons, but I find that pinsir needs much less team support besides hazard removal, as lucario has such a hard time setting up

 

[Mood4food77]

lucario doesn't need to set up and doesn't have a hard time at all doing so, steel/fighting is a very good defensive typing that also lets him give not a single fuck about SR (really the only hazard you have to worry about right now)

also, being able to run both special and physical sets equally well make him that much scarier since the opponent has to guess which set lucario is using, usually giving him a free turn

he's also stupidly strong meaning that you don't need to carry hazard support for him to achieve those KOs

he's stupid easy to mega volve thanks to having crazy good priority in the form of bullet punch, vacuum wave, and extreme speed

dont' get me wrong, mega pinsir is a monster in his own right, but to say mega lucario has trouble doing anything is to be misinformed, mega lucario is easily the biggest threat to all of pokemon right now and there's not really anything that can stop him

 

[effyouzion]

Pinsir really needs Rotom, Skarmory, Talonflame, Latis, and any scarfers removed before he can sweep. Lucario needs fewer things gone, and he chooses his counters by his move set. Use Crunch/EQ if your team can't handle Aegislash, ice punch for Lando, extreme speed for Talonflame, or go special for stall teams, etc.

If you see Pinsir you can think "ok Skarmory can't die" and you're essentially playing 5v5 with the other guy. With Lucario, you have no idea what you need around.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Pinsir really needs Rotom, Skarmory, Talonflame, Latis, and any scarfers removed before he can sweep. Lucario needs fewer things gone, and he chooses his counters by his move set. Use Crunch/EQ if your team can't handle Aegislash, ice punch for Lando, extreme speed for Talonflame, or go special for stall teams, etc.

If you see Pinsir you can think "ok Skarmory can't die" and you're essentially playing 5v5 with the other guy. With Lucario, you have no idea what you need around.

Pinsir couldnt care less about the latwins. Bulky latias is setup fodder, offensive latias will never be at full health late game because of life orb meaning it will fall to a boosted quick attack easily while latios can be ohkoed even at full health. The two most common scarfers only need minimal prior damage to fall. I dont even know why people keep bringing skarmory up anymore considering its 2hkoed by a boosted return and cant ko back lol. Granted if pinsir has taken some massive (read 32%) amount of prior damage then skarmory is capable of koing it but that makes it a very shaky check. Rotom-w is in a similar boat, easily 2hkoed and cant ko back at high healths, forcing it to rely on will-o-wisp hitting. The most reliable answer to pinsir is thundurus because it can survive a boosted quick attack even after rocks and ko back 100% of time. Garchomp is also quite decent since pinsir needs a lot of prior damage to ko chomp with quick attack, unlike terrakion and genesect. Scarf landorus-t can work too taking even less damage, but really thats pretty much all you've got. Pinsir is a massive threat, easily comparable to or even superior to lucario in some cases, considering that it has MUCH less checks.
PS: I am assuming adamant pinsir here, though not sure why would anyone ever want to use jolly on it.

 

[Ajwf]

Full defensive skarm will beat pinsir every time if it gets in with 60+ health, as it comes in on the boost turn, takes a boosted return (I use rocky helmet to give recoil) and then brave bird for SE to kill.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Full defensive skarm will beat pinsir every time if it gets in with 60+ health, as it comes in on the boost turn, takes a boosted return (I use rocky helmet to give recoil) and then brave bird for SE to kill.

0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 186-218 (68.3 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Wont ko even with rocky helmet recoil. The only thing skarmory can do to stop a pinsir sweep is phazing it, but nothing stops it from trying to sweep again later and skarmory will be hanging at 50%ish hp.

 

[Ajwf]

You're ignoring something very important...

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 140-165 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's all you can manage. At +2. A health skarm is taking taking 22% if it hits max. So technically you need an 80% to have a win, but you can technically roost off another turn, as the pinsir can't risk going +3. Point is, Pinsir simply has a hell of a difficult time getting past skarm.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

You're ignoring something very important...

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 140-165 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's all you can manage. At +2. A health skarm is taking taking 22% if it hits max. So technically you need an 80% to have a win, but you can technically roost off another turn, as the pinsir can't risk going +3. Point is, Pinsir simply has a hell of a difficult time getting past skarm.

I specifically mentioned adamant pinsir in the first post. Its true that pinsir cant just get around skarmory unscatched, but the fact is that adamant pinsir needs only a layer of rocks on the field to 2hko it and as long as it hasnt taken over 30% of prior damage its going to beat it.

 

[Chillarmy]

People are finally agreeing with me? Oh, praise the heavens!

Anyway, yeah:

You're ignoring something very important...

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 140-165 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's all you can manage. At +2. A health skarm is taking taking 22% if it hits max. So technically you need an 80% to have a win, but you can technically roost off another turn, as the pinsir can't risk going +3. Point is, Pinsir simply has a hell of a difficult time getting past skarm.

I think that you're also ignoring something important: Skarmory isn't likely to be healthy for the entire duration of a match. Mega Pinsir doesn't have to boost immediately to pressure Skarm. Smacking Skarmory with one unboosted Frustration is (lol) enough to force it Roost; and if it doesn't, +2 Pinsir will be able to plow right on through (it's a lot more favorable for Skarm to Roost in this situation as well, lessening the risk of Pinsir SDing again). Any player using even the simpliest of logic will use that likely-to-be free turn to get something capable of better pressuring Skarmory--Rotom-W, Lando-I, [Magnezone], and Starmie immediately come to mind--in. At that point, depending on their choice, they'll be able to tack on momentum, kill Skarm, get rid of hazards, etc.

P.S-Jolly Mega Pinsir outspeeds Jolly Chomp and Hasty Genesect (CB / Ebelt / SG), which is a pretty noteable Speed benchmark.

 

[effyouzion]

Pinsir couldnt care less about the latwins. Bulky latias is setup fodder, offensive latias will never be at full health late game because of life orb meaning it will fall to a boosted quick attack easily while latios can be ohkoed even at full health. The two most common scarfers only need minimal prior damage to fall. I dont even know why people keep bringing skarmory up anymore considering its 2hkoed by a boosted return and cant ko back lol. Granted if pinsir has taken some massive (read 32%) amount of prior damage then skarmory is capable of koing it but that makes it a very shaky check. Rotom-w is in a similar boat, easily 2hkoed and cant ko back at high healths, forcing it to rely on will-o-wisp hitting. The most reliable answer to pinsir is thundurus because it can survive a boosted quick attack even after rocks and ko back 100% of time. Garchomp is also quite decent since pinsir needs a lot of prior damage to ko chomp with quick attack, unlike terrakion and genesect. Scarf landorus-t can work too taking even less damage, but really thats pretty much all you've got. Pinsir is a massive threat, easily comparable to or even superior to lucario in some cases, considering that it has MUCH less checks.
PS: I am assuming adamant pinsir here, though not sure why would anyone ever want to use jolly on it.

Pinsir's 2hkos on Skarmory and Rotom are only with a swords dance. If you have a Skarmory or Rotom, and you're smart enough to switch them in during the swords dance, they will always stop a Pinsir sweep before it even happens. That's a counter in my book.

As for the Latis not being counters, adamant Pinsir has an extremely small (6.3%) chance to OHKO either with quick attack after a swords dance. Not exactly "getting through" them. Plus, if you're adamant, you're gonna lose to Garchomp and all other guys that sit around base 100 speed that can survive a quick attack.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Pinsir's 2hkos on Skarmory and Rotom are only with a swords dance. If you have a Skarmory or Rotom, and you're smart enough to switch them in during the swords dance, they will always stop a Pinsir sweep before it even happens. That's a counter in my book.

As for the Latis not being counters, adamant Pinsir has an extremely small (6.3%) chance to OHKO either with quick attack after a swords dance. Not exactly "getting through" them. Plus, if you're adamant, you're gonna lose to Garchomp and all other guys that sit around base 100 speed that can survive a quick attack.

I already stated that every revenge killer bar garchomp and scarf landorus-t needs minimal prior damage to be koed, and considering pinsir is a late game cleaner thats pathetically easy to achieve. Really if your opp actually manages to keep latios at EXACTLY full health through the entire dam game you are doing something wrong. Skarmory cant stop a pinsir sweep without losing half of its health and even then it can only phaze it so its not a permanent solution. Rotom-w is relying exclusively on will-o-wisp hitting and even if it does hit you still lost more than half of your health. Those are not counters, they are shaky checks that CANNOT deal with pinsir without being mauled in the process. Jolly pinsir serves no purpose, no one uses thundurus-t and garchomp is not a good reason to miss a bunch of koes, specially when a lot of garchomps nowadays are not running jolly themselves (mega/bulky/lead chomp) or are just outright scarfed anyway.

 

[Ajwf]

People are finally agreeing with me? Oh, praise the heavens!

Anyway, yeah:

I think that you're also ignoring something important: Skarmory isn't likely to be healthy for the entire duration of a match. Mega Pinsir doesn't have to boost immediately to pressure Skarm. Smacking Skarmory with one unboosted Frustration is (lol) enough to force it Roost; and if it doesn't, +2 Pinsir will be able to plow right on through (it's a lot more favorable for Skarm to Roost in this situation as well, lessening the risk of Pinsir SDing again). Any player using even the simpliest of logic will use that likely-to-be free turn to get something capable of better pressuring Skarmory--Rotom-W, Lando-I, [Magnezone], and Starmie immediately come to mind--in. At that point, depending on their choice, they'll be able to tack on momentum, kill Skarm, get rid of hazards, etc.

Saying that skarm isn't likely to be healthy then falls to the fact that A.) your team design forced another pokemon to take on skarm that the opposing team couldn't handle and/or B.) The opponent wasn't smart enough to recognize they needed skarm at good health to stop Pinsir-m.

But even unboosted frustration, pinsir-m takes almost as much as skarm does if rocky helmet... Which makes the exchange far more favorable to skarmory, given rock weaknesses and skarm's ability to switch in more easily.

By the same argument, though, I could force you to play pinsir-m in early by killing your spinner and threatening rocks, thus allowing me to keep skarm away from the game for less time. How LONG I need to keep Skarm healthy is simply determined on outside factors, your/my team and how quickly I checkmate a spinner/defogger of yours to threaten rocks back up.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Youre missing the point here. Pinsir has VERY few reliable checks, as such you will pratically never find a team that has multiple answers to it. You can pretty much count on hand here: skarmory, rotom-w, scarf landorus-t, ROCK SLIDE JOLLY garchomp and thundurus. Hell, some of these arent even all that reliable, yet theyre the closest you get to that. Skarmory is the only thing capable of mindless switching into pinsir, period. ALL the pressure is on the skarmory player, not on the pinsir player. If skarmory falls its very likely the rest of the team will too. If you dont keep it healthy youre going to have a hard time surviving a boosted hit and phaze it, but if you try to keep it away from the battle for too long you risk getting vulnerable to pinsir's teammates. Its pretty much a no-win situation here, and thats really what makes pinsir so good, and what makes its ''checks'' not really that good at stopping it like theyre supposed to. I dont even know why you keep bringing rocky helmet up, that just hurts skarmory longevity even more and applies a lot more pressure to it.

 

[Nysyr]

Skarm is the only reliable pinsir check, as the others have staying power flaws when SR is up, and don't have the luxury of being able to use rocky helmet. With that said, I'm not sure why more magnezone/goth aren't seen paried with pinsir to remove Skarm/Rotom-W/Zapdos.

 

[effyouzion]

I already stated that every revenge killer bar garchomp and scarf landorus-t needs minimal prior damage to be koed, and considering pinsir is a late game cleaner thats pathetically easy to achieve. Really if your opp actually manages to keep latios at EXACTLY full health through the entire dam game you are doing something wrong. Skarmory cant stop a pinsir sweep without losing half of its health and even then it can only phaze it so its not a permanent solution. Rotom-w is relying exclusively on will-o-wisp hitting and even if it does hit you still lost more than half of your health. Those are not counters, they are shaky checks that CANNOT deal with pinsir without being mauled in the process. Jolly pinsir serves no purpose, no one uses thundurus-t and garchomp is not a good reason to miss a bunch of koes, specially when a lot of garchomps nowadays are not running jolly themselves (mega/bulky/lead chomp) or are just outright scarfed anyway.

You're ignoring volt switch, brave bird, rocks on the enemy's side, Pinsir getting hit while setting up, and so many other things. There's really no point in a rational discussion if you're going to tweak every variable in Pinsir's favor. If you want to pretend that it's god mode, cool.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

You're ignoring volt switch, brave bird, rocks on the enemy's side, Pinsir getting hit while setting up, and so many other things. There's really no point in a rational discussion if you're going to tweak every variable in Pinsir's favor. If you want to pretend that it's god mode, cool.

I am not ignoring anything. Volt Switch and Brave Bird wont ko (even after rocks theres only a pathetically small chance of it happening since pinsir starts 2x weak to it), while pinsir is faster and can 2hko before they can land a second hit. Pinsir is a late game cleaner, skarmory and rotom-w are walls, they are the ones that are going to be tanking a lot of hits through the match, its pretty easy to assume that the majority time pinsir will be much more healthy. The amount of pressure pinsir puts in the opponent is ridiculous because of the lack of more reliable answers for it and how it can actually get past the few ones that do exist. Skarmory and rotom are the one being pressured to death, not pinsir. If you choose to ignore this simple fact than youre the one being irrational here.

 

[ssjjynx]

Has everyone forgot about air balloon excadrill? I'm pretty sure return doesn't OHKO, and rock slide definitely does. Sure, Pinsir might be at +2, but with that arguement, the sand might be up so sand rush excadrill outspeeds. Really, the best you could hope for is your opponent missing the rock slide.

 

[alexwolf]

Has everyone forgot about air balloon excadrill? I'm pretty sure return doesn't OHKO, and rock slide definitely does. Sure, Pinsir might be at +2, but with that arguement, the sand might be up so sand rush excadrill outspeeds. Really, the best you could hope for is your opponent missing the rock slide.

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 373-440 (103 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Jaiho]

Has everyone forgot about air balloon excadrill? I'm pretty sure return doesn't OHKO, and rock slide definitely does. Sure, Pinsir might be at +2, but with that arguement, the sand might be up so sand rush excadrill outspeeds. Really, the best you could hope for is your opponent missing the rock slide.

yeah... about that...
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 373-440 (103 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Even if Excadrill manages to keep its balloon intact to the late game, it still gets OHKOed. Also, Sand Rush Excadrill has plummeted in viability because of the weather nerf, and Mold Breaker is the most common ability, as shown by the most recent usage statistics. Even so, it is very easy for M-Pinsir to get to +2, and much harder to keep both Tyranitar and Excadrill at a serviceable amount of health, since T-tar is constantly switching in and out to take special moves, and excadrill will be trying to rapid spin away hazards.

EDIT: ninja'd by Alexwolf

 

[Photofluid]

0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 186-218 (68.3 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Wont ko even with rocky helmet recoil. The only thing skarmory can do to stop a pinsir sweep is phazing it, but nothing stops it from trying to sweep again later and skarmory will be hanging at 50%ish hp.

The point here is, a mega pinsir take 4*SR weakness, so once it gets forced out it is much more difficult to switch in, but yes, very few pokemon can reliably handle Pinsir without leaving scratches on them, esp. when you run sth like healing wish support or double flight HO. Especially after you remove their revenge killer.