Pokémon Pinsir

[Ajwf]

The thing about EQ is it covers everything that a flying move doesn't hit for SE. Flying type attacks are resisted by Steel, Electric and Rock, all of which EQ hits for super effective damage. Ergo, it is better to just find other ways to take out the only two checks to mega pinsir. You lose WAY more than you gain by having cc over eq. For example, skarm is screwed by magnezone, rotom is stopped hard by any grass type. Support pinsir to your sweeper and he'll do more work than any other mega.

Plus, Skarm is still going to take a CC with relative ease. And since a lot of skarms are hybrid mega counters, you're just going to hit rocky helmets.

 

[Tesung]

Not to mention that nve return isn't that much worse than neutrall cc. Cc also gives defense drops, which takes away from the fact that mega pinsir is decently physically bulky, which is important for priority not named brave bird. The biggest problem for eq is balloon drill or tran, but his goAl is to sweep late game, and their balloons should be popped by then. And btw it's not breaking through skarm regardless, and if you don't like rotom, use mold breaker eq

 

[Punchshroom]

The only real merit I see Close Combat having over Earthquake is to hit Skarmory for a 2HKO after +2. Most other Close Combat targets usually don't get OHKOed, are hit hard enough (as in 2HKOed) by +2 Aerilate Return, or can / must be covered by Earthquake (Ferrothorn, Rotom-W, Tyranitar, Heatran, Aegislash...).

This isn't downplaying Close Combat really, the only true comparison between EQ and CC is the Aegislash and Skarmory matchup, and Skarm is more threatening to Pinsir than Aegi with phazing + super effective STAB. However, Skarm is also much easier to deal with teammates than against Aegi overall (due to Aegi's power and mixed potential), so Close Combat is a bit 'going out of your way' to me.

 

[ZeeZee]

Here's something a little different.

Bad Sleeper

Pinsir @ Pinsirite
Ability:Hyper Cutter / Moxie
EVs: 252HP / 252Atk / 4SpD
Adamant Nature
Rest
Sleep Talk
Bulk Up
Thrash / Return / Body Slam

With Arielate and STAB at work, Thrash becomes a wooping 234 BP move. The main problem with Thrash is that Pinsir is not only locked into it for three turns, but he also becomes confused after the lock ends. Both of these problems are removed by sleep Talk, as a Thrash selected by Sleep Talk will not lock you into it OR confuse you. Return is also a good option as you dont have to deal with being locked into trash normally and offers almost the same amount of power. Body slam is a weaker alternative that has a nice chance of paralysis. Flying also makes for a relatively decent mono attacking type, as no pokemon is immune to it and only 4 fully evolved Pokemon resist it in the game (only one of them being OU in magnezone). Bulk Up will raise your defense and attack stat to increase your survibability and the power of Thrash.

 

[myw]

Isn't the biggest merit of CC that you can actually hit Rotom with it? That's the only thing I've generally run into that I really wish I had it for. Maybe Ferrothorn too, but Return kinda does enough there.

 

[Tactical]

Has anyone tried an Endure/Flail set?

Endure
Flail
Quick Attack/EQ/CC
Swords Dance/EQ/CC

With flail hitting a staggering 200 BP at 1hp, 300 with stab, 390 with Arielate, at +2 it would absolutely destroy anything it touches, resistance or not. If nothing else then it is effectively a Swords Dance boost on your main stab attack that you can guarantee you will live through using to crush a bulky counter the following turn you otherwise couldn't.

 

[Schpoonman]

Isn't the biggest merit of CC that you can actually hit Rotom with it? That's the only thing I've generally run into that I really wish I had it for. Maybe Ferrothorn too, but Return kinda does enough there.

Well, at +2 you nearly offensive Rotom-W with Jolly Return.

Has anyone tried an Endure/Flail set?

Endure
Flail
Quick Attack/EQ/CC
Swords Dance/EQ/CC

With flail hitting a staggering 200 BP at 1hp, 300 with stab, 390 with Arielate, at +2 it would absolutely destroy anything it touches, resistance or not. If nothing else then it is effectively a Swords Dance boost on your main stab attack that you can guarantee you will live through using to crush a bulky counter the following turn you otherwise couldn't.

There's too much priority floating around for that to really be useful, I think.

 

[Strykeypoo]

'Talonflame does it better', ha ha ha. That makes absolutely no sense. Pinsir uses priority for its own sweeping, not to check faster threats and revenge kill. I still wouldn't run Adamant, though, with so many Pokemon like Garchomp, Genesect, Charizard being extremely common and sitting right in Pinsir's speed tier. And of course, Mega Kangaskhan. If I'm going to put a Mega on my team at all, it'd better not lose to that She-Hulk abomination.

You need Jolly to sweep. Maybe my wording was misleading, but that was essentially my point. If you go Adamant, you're limiting your Pinsir to Quick Attack more than it needs to be, which is why Talonflame would be better in that situation.

 

[Thorhammer]

Isn't the biggest merit of CC that you can actually hit Rotom with it? That's the only thing I've generally run into that I really wish I had it for. Maybe Ferrothorn too, but Return kinda does enough there.

Rotom only takes 20% more from CC than from Return, same deal with Ferrothorn and Skarmory.

 

[alexwolf]

Those comments about CC being useful/needed against Rotom-W and Ferrothorn should stop:

+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 204-241 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 169-200 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 281-331 (92.4 - 108.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 233-275 (76.6 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Ferrothorn: 366-432 (103.9 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Ferrothorn: 304-358 (86.3 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

Neither CC nor Return come even close at OHKOing max HP / max Def+ Rotom-W, while both easily 2HKO. All you need to get past max HP Rotom-W is to deal ~10% previous damage to it while SR is on the field. If you tell me you can't do that on a Pokemon that switches in and out so often and is used to check so many Pokemon, then you are either a bad player or your opponent refuses to bring Rotom-W in at all, in which case you can take advantage of this with other Pokemon checked by Rotom-W.

Let's not even discuss Ferrothorn, lol.

EQ >>>>> CC. It's not like CC is a guaranteed win against Skarmory, as it does ~55% at +2, which means that Skarmory can OHKO you back with Brave Bird if you use CC or Whirlwind you away if you choose to go for Return / SD (in order to 2HKO the next turn with CC without being OHKOed by Brave Bird). In terms of analyses, Close Combat is the epitome of Other Option material: Has a single very specific use, but other than that it's 100% outclassed.

 

[SJCrew]

All you need to get past max HP Rotom-W is to deal ~10% previous damage to it while SR is on the field.

Leaving it at 77%, which is in range for a Close Combat kill, not Return. Let us examine some common battle conditions:

Switching into Heatran's Lava Plume takes off about 24% of Rotom's health, factoring in Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Rotom attacks the inevitable switch-in with Hydro Pump, gaining another ~6%, leaving it at 82%. Rotom switches out of the check. If Pinsir Mega Evolves and gets a +2, it can kill the Rotom switch-in immediately at 70% (revenging), or go for the high roll at 76% (switching directly in on Swords Dance). If you cannot kill the Rotom at ~70%, it can easily retaliate, neutering or killing the Pinsir.

A Scarf Genesect does 20 - 24% using U-turn. Let's suppose 22%. Rotom switches in and loses around 28% of its health with Stealth Rock and Leftovers, leaving it at 72%. It is forced out by the U-turn switch-in. This is where it gets tricky: if Rotom switches in on Pinsir upon setting up, it is up to about 66% of its HP. Completely out of Return's KO range, but a prime target for +2 Close Combat. Otherwise, it can revenge at 60%, giving Return a small chance to KO with return, but another easy win for Close Combat.

Here is another scenario that happens often. Your opponent has Tyranitar first and is likely to keep it there. You are automatically disqualified from a free chance to Mega Evolve first turn with Pinsir because you are unable to OHKO Tyranitar with Earthquake (56.9 - 67.3%) while it Stone Edges for free. This affects basically the entire match, as an unexpected Close Combat KO can prevent rocks, or reveal their likely switch-in for Mega Pinsir while putting Pinsir's speed tier in effect earlier in the match for use in checking Garchomp.

Perhaps the most common scenario of all: Rotom-W switches in on Earthquake while you try to kill Heatran, doing 0% instead of 33+%. You don't have any viable options for damaging Rotom unboosted, so you're really either avoiding checking Heatran with Mega Pinsir at all, or you are making risky plays to damage Rotom as this happens.

I hope the ability to beat an easily checked defensive Pokemon is worth all of that early momentum you're giving up.

Let me drop one more calc before I drop this debate: 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 298-352 (84.9 - 100.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[MagicMissingno]

Guys, guys, guysguysguysguysguys. CC and EQ have different uses. It's a coverage option that's dependent on what your team needs. Pokemon is 6 vs 6, not 1 vs 6 so Pinser just needs its counters to each set dealt with before it sweeps. That's what teammates are for.

 

[Punchshroom]

SJCrew In other words, Close Combat is better to spam when unboosted. However, Earthquake is the far better tool at sweeping, which you'll eventually have Pinsir be doing anyway, unless you plan on using Mega-Pinsir without SD.

 

[Sucker Lunch]

Something that has been on my mind lately is the banned Mega Gengar and the probably soon-to-banned Mega Kanga, do you guys think Pinsir will be put up for suspect? I think mega pinsir's weakness to fire,ice,electricity,rock, and flying keeps it in check.

 

[ColtCababa]

Something that has been on my mind lately is the banned Mega Gengar and the probably soon-to-banned Mega Kanga, do you guys think Pinsir will be put up for suspect? I think mega pinsir's weakness to fire,ice,electricity,rock, and flying keeps it in check.

Absolutely not. Along with it's various weaknesses, it just doesn't have the bulk to take powerful hits, and more often than not will be switching out in fear of being OHKO'ed. It is also rather walled by Rotom-W, Thundurus, Skarmory, and roughly anything that isn't weak to Flying/Ground and has substantial Physical bulk. It's base 105 Speed, while decent, isn't enough to avoid getting revenge killed as well.

It isn't a difficult task to KO Mega Pinsir.

 

[Ajwf]

At some point, it will be suspected. It will not have the discussion and then the council deciding on a quick ban, but I do believe that you'll find a suspect test in order. Is it too centralizing? Eh... I want to say yes simply because I only have one safe tried and tested counter but I'll reserve judgement until the actual suspecting.

 

[Sucker Lunch]

Absolutely not. Along with it's various weaknesses, it just doesn't have the bulk to take powerful hits, and more often than not will be switching out in fear of being OHKO'ed. It is also rather walled by Rotom-H, Thundurus, Skarmory, and roughly anything that isn't weak to Flying/Ground and has substantial Physical bulk. It's base 105 Speed, while decent, isn't enough to avoid getting revenge killed as well.

I agree, I think Mega Pinsir's power is in check due to it's plethora of weaknesses and the lack of speed and special bulk. I don't know, I guess I'm just paranoid about my favorite pokemon being banned just when it became viable lol.

 

[alexwolf]

Leaving it at 77%, which is in range for a Close Combat kill, not Return. Let us examine some common battle conditions:

I don't know about which Rotom-W set you are talking about, but 77% is exactly the min damage range of +2 Return against max HP Rotom-W, the most common spread for it by far (max HP / max Def+ is used only 8%): +2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 233-275 (76.6 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also, Pinsir has always the option of not MEvolving immediately to hit the obvious Rotom-W switch-in with Mold Breaker Earthquake, which does:

252 Atk Mold Breaker Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 146-174 (48 - 57.2%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Something that has been on my mind lately is the banned Mega Gengar and the probably soon-to-banned Mega Kanga, do you guys think Pinsir will be put up for suspect? I think mega pinsir's weakness to fire,ice,electricity,rock, and flying keeps it in check.

If the OU council thinks it deserves to be suspected it will, that's the best answer you are gonna get. No more talk about its banning.

 

[Orga777]

The only reason I can see that people would ban M-Pinsir is due to the +30% boost from Aerilate, which is nuts. If it didn't have that, it would have no issues at all being in OU what so ever. However, it can be walled rather decently with a lot of different pokemon. It has more limitations than Kanga and Gar have in mega form. Still pretty good, though. Needs more testing to know for sure.

 

[Thorhammer]

The only reason I can see that people would ban M-Pinsir is due to the +30% boost from Aerilate, which is nuts. If it didn't have that, it would have no issues at all being in OU what so ever. However, it can be walled rather decently with a lot of different pokemon. It has more limitations than Kanga and Gar have in mega form. Still pretty good, though. Needs more testing to know for sure.

If not for the Aerilate boost, I doubt Pinsir would be OU at all.

 

[Subpar]

Will there be a significant power loss if using Jolly instead of Adamant?

 

[myw]

I believe in personal experience you lose the ability to 2hko certain Rotom-wash sets after rocks, but I'm not too familiar with the exact EVs they use. I think it'll work on bulky attacker Rotom-Washes packing a choice spec or something.
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 128-151 (42.1 - 49.6%) -- 26.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Yeah, that's basically it. I mean, the difference is pretty apparent and important in the late game, but the speed tier is as well.

 

[Taiki]

I know facade usage was brought up earlier but is there any proof of what's listed on bulbapedia pertaining to it? It says that in gen vi burns stat drop doesn't apply when using facade.
If by chance that is true would that make facade something to strongly consider on him or still no? Link is below.

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Facade_(move)

 

[Thorhammer]

I know facade usage was brought up earlier but is there any proof of what's listed on bulbapedia pertaining to it? It says that in gen vi burns stat drop doesn't apply when using facade.
If by chance that is true would that make facade something to strongly consider on him or still no? Link is below.

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Facade_(move)

I can verify that Facade was buffed, but regardless, Return's immense standard power is not worth giving up.

 

[sidakarya]

Also you lose power on all of your other attacks, most importantly Quick Attack. If Façade had at least 80 BP, maybe it would be a decent emergency measure, but now I would just use Return.