Pokémon Movepool Oddities & Explanations

Not to bury the point you're bringing up but Aerial Ace gets on a lot of non-flying Pokemon because it's specifically referring to a sword technique ("Swallow Return"), so you get a lot of Pokemon with sharp spikes, claws, horns or held instruments (bones, leeks) get it as much as you do birds getting it because they're birds. They likely decided to learn really hard into this interpretation to help spread an all-purpose not-too-strong flying move to a bunch of Pokemon.
Slaking gets it likely because Slakoth & Vigoroth get it: They have very notable sharp claws and Vigoroth in particular is a rowdy boy. It's the "Primeape gets Iron Tail despite not having a Tail" reasoning.

e: To hammer the point of trying to give Flying coverage to a bunch of Pokemon as a reason I want to point out that until Aerial Ace most flying moves were either (1) Very Definitely Bird Attacks that are hard (though not impossible) to give to other pokemon on a wide scale, (2) Aeroblast or (3) Bad
Wing Attack, Drill Peck, Fly (to an extent), Mirror Move ("Parrot Mimickry") & Sky Attack ("God Bird")are the former
Gust & Peck are the latter. Being 40 & 35 BP respectively when they wind up in other move pools its often as early game flavor.

Gen 3 introduced Aerial Ace, Air Cutter, & Bounce (also Feather Dance but see again "bird" reasoning). All three of these are more vague and able to be spread around but they put the focus on AA probably since it could be spread much more widely while the more specialized AC & Bounce landed on "filler". Once move tutors came back in gen 4 they got a little extra coverage, but AA got the job done so it wasnt as needed.

e2: Having written all this out can we admire how they clearly cared enough about Flying as a type that they tried to give it more generic moves so they could go to other Pokemon in gen 3 while Bug's biggest new additions were 2 moves exclusive to Volbeat and Silver Wind
 
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CoolMan6001 said:
What was the other one after Tail Glow?

If you're reffering to Signal Beam, then Venonat, Spinarak, and Yanma had it as an Egg Move in that gen.
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& Dewgong got it at level 1 in FRLG, but yeah it's Signal Beam. I did forget it had egg moves in that gen, though.
In gen 3 it...honestly may as well have been signature. You had to go through some hoops to get it on Venonat, Yanma & Spinarak. Volbeat was the only one in its egg group but exclusive to RSE so you had to either trade with them or grab the purified Spinarak out of XD if you're in FRLG or have colosseum and bring over Ariados & Yanma to RSE.

Gen 3's just a real mess.
 
With Darkest Lariat becoming a TR, several Pokemon now learn it, not just Incineroar. However, there is a glaring omission to the list of new lariateers. Just a reminder, this is the attack where the user "swings both arms and hits the target" while spinning in a t-pose.

conkeldurr.gif

"Rather than rely on force, they master moves that utilize the centrifugal force of spinning concrete. "
 
DrPumpkinz said:
With Darkest Lariat becoming a TR, several Pokemon now learn it, not just Incineroar. However, there is a glaring omission to the list of new lariateers. Just a reminder, this is the attack where the user "swings both arms and hits the target" while spinning in a t-pose.

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"Rather than rely on force, they master moves that utilize the centrifugal force of spinning concrete. "
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There's overlap between Dark-type spinning moves introduced in Gen 7 (with the other being Brutal Swing), and Darkest Lariat seems to be the more exclusive of the two.

That said, it IS odd that Conkeldurr doesn't get it.
 
DrPumpkinz said:
With Darkest Lariat becoming a TR, several Pokemon now learn it, not just Incineroar. However, there is a glaring omission to the list of new lariateers. Just a reminder, this is the attack where the user "swings both arms and hits the target" while spinning in a t-pose.

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"Rather than rely on force, they master moves that utilize the centrifugal force of spinning concrete. "
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Maybe because its build prevents it from doing spinning moves?

But thinking about it, that wouldn't explain why Snorlax CAN learn Darkest Lariat.
 
DrPumpkinz said:
With Darkest Lariat becoming a TR, several Pokemon now learn it, not just Incineroar. However, there is a glaring omission to the list of new lariateers. Just a reminder, this is the attack where the user "swings both arms and hits the target" while spinning in a t-pose.

"Rather than rely on force, they master moves that utilize the centrifugal force of spinning concrete. "
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It would be centripetal force in this instance, right? Assuming the force is being projected outward and not inward, that is. Either way, I imagine that's a lot harder to do with two concrete pillars than unarmed XD
 
Siggu said:
Maybe because its build prevents it from doing spinning moves?
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HottieLamatie said:
Either way, I imagine that's a lot harder to do with two concrete pillars than unarmed XD
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That's the thing though. Even though it would no doubt be difficult for most things to spin around concrete pillars, Conk is explicitly stated not only to be capable of doing so, but that it is its preferred method of combat and that it is extremely proficient at it.
 
DrPumpkinz said:
That's the thing though. Even though it would no doubt be difficult for most things to spin around concrete pillars, Conk is explicitly stated not only to be capable of doing so, but that it is its preferred method of combat and that it is extremely proficient at it.
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Gah! I should've read the Pokédex entry first! >.< My bad

...Buuut, upon reading the SS Pokédex entry, they made a big change in Shield - apparently now Conkeldurr will completely abandon the concrete pillars in favour of an all-out fisticuffs pummelling, which makes all the punch-based moves make more sense. I don't see why that would invalide using Darkest Lariat, given that Conkeldurr would still be able to spin without them, so...your guess is as good as mine.

In any case, I think this Pokédex entry makes a lot more sense than "using the centrifugal force of spinning concrete" (WTF DOES THAT EVEN MEAN???), so there's some good to Gen VIII's movepool/Pokédex entry debacle.
 
HottieLamatie said:
Gah! I should've read the Pokédex entry first! >.< My bad

...Buuut, upon reading the SS Pokédex entry, they made a big change in Shield - apparently now Conkeldurr will completely abandon the concrete pillars in favour of an all-out fisticuffs pummelling, which makes all the punch-based moves make more sense. I don't see why that would invalide using Darkest Lariat, given that Conkeldurr would still be able to spin without them, so...your guess is as good as mine.

In any case, I think this Pokédex entry makes a lot more sense than "using the centrifugal force of spinning concrete" (WTF DOES THAT EVEN MEAN???), so there's some good to Gen VIII's movepool/Pokédex entry debacle.
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The way I read it is that Conkeldurr, being an elder, developed a fighting style that involved swinging around its concrete walking canes as a way to reduce exertion. When it need to go all out, it uses its fists, but doing so will tire it out.

To get a sense of how Conkeldurr fights, fill two bags with heavy stuff and hold one in each hand. By spinning around, you'll be able to swing them around without much effort; inertia is doing most of the work. Once that's done, go ham on a cushion with your fists. You'll get exhausted fairly quickly.
 
HottieLamatie said:
It would be centripetal force in this instance, right? Assuming the force is being projected outward and not inward, that is. Either way, I imagine that's a lot harder to do with two concrete pillars than unarmed XD
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It would technically be neither. Centripetal force is the force keeping the block spinning and not going off in a line (i.e. the frictional strength of Conk's grip), while centrifugal force is the apparent outwards force of the block wanting to escape due to the block's reference frame being rotating. If Conk grabbed its opponents and spun them hard enough to rip them apart, it would be attacking with centripetal force. If it loaded its concrete into a sling and launched it, it would be attacking with centrifugal force. But if its hitting something head-on with a rotating block, both of these forces are in exactly the wrong direction to make impact.

As an aside, if you really wanted to spin up your construction materials, Gurdurr made the best choice. Concrete is very brittle, and handles flexing stress (the kind produced by side impacts) worse than wood. There's a reason steel is used to augment concrete anytime people are worried about tensile load. Steel also has three times the density, so you can hit harder with the same volume.
 
DrPumpkinz said:
To get a sense of how Conkeldurr fights, fill two bags with heavy stuff and hold one in each hand. By spinning around, you'll be able to swing them around without much effort; inertia is doing most of the work. Once that's done, go ham on a cushion with your fists. You'll get exhausted fairly quickly.
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To be clear, what I was saying I don't understand is what "the centrifugal force of spinning concrete" means, specifically within the context of "instead of relying on force". Instead of relying on force, Conkeldurr relies on...force? But it's centrifugal force, so...what difference does that make? "Of spinning concrete" might be significant here - they mean that concrete generates its own centrifugal force by spinning? So the concrete...spins on its own? Well, they "utilise moves", so I guess they use moves which...use concrete which generates its own force??? I just don't know how to interpret this Pokédex entry, and the moves that Conkeldurr learns doesn't help, either. And using the interpretation of force to mean violence makes even less sense, so I'm just at a total loss for how to read the statement.

Ironmage said:
It would technically be neither. Centripetal force is the force keeping the block spinning and not going off in a line (i.e. the frictional strength of Conk's grip), while centrifugal force is the apparent outwards force of the block wanting to escape due to the block's reference frame being rotating. If Conk grabbed its opponents and spun them hard enough to rip them apart, it would be attacking with centripetal force. If it loaded its concrete into a sling and launched it, it would be attacking with centrifugal force. But if its hitting something head-on with a rotating block, both of these forces are in exactly the wrong direction to make impact.

As an aside, if you really wanted to spin up your construction materials, Gurdurr made the best choice. Concrete is very brittle, and handles flexing stress (the kind produced by side impacts) worse than wood. There's a reason steel is used to augment concrete anytime people are worried about tensile load. Steel also has three times the density, so you can hit harder with the same volume.
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Awesome; thank you so much for clarifying!
 
HottieLamatie said:
To be clear, what I was saying I don't understand is what "the centrifugal force of spinning concrete" means, specifically within the context of "instead of relying on force". Instead of relying on force, Conkeldurr relies on...force? But it's centrifugal force, so...what difference does that make? "Of spinning concrete" might be significant here - they mean that concrete generates its own centrifugal force by spinning? So the concrete...spins on its own? Well, they "utilise moves", so I guess they use moves which...use concrete which generates its own force??? I just don't know how to interpret this Pokédex entry, and the moves that Conkeldurr learns doesn't help, either. And using the interpretation of force to mean violence makes even less sense, so I'm just at a total loss for how to read the statement.
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It worded a bit awkwardly, I'll give you that. I'm pretty sure "relying on force" means relying on its own force. Unless it's in beat-down mode, when Conkeldurr bludgeons you with its concrete pillars, most of the impact is coming from the inertia of the pillar as opposed to Conkeldurr's own strength. At the start of a battle, Conkeldurr has to use a lot of his strength to get the pillars moving, but after that, I imagine just kinda keeps them spinning like a flywheel with minimal effort.

It's an elder, after all. It's past its prime, and while it's still incredibly strong, it can't handle the same kind of prolonged exertion it was once capable of. To make up for its physical shortcomings, Conkeldurr put the wisdom and experience it's acquired over the years to use and developed a new fighting style that's less strenuous on its body.
 
DrPumpkinz said:
It worded a bit awkwardly, I'll give you that. I'm pretty sure "relying on force" means relying on its own force. Unless it's in beat-down mode, when Conkeldurr bludgeons you with its concrete pillars, most of the impact is coming from the inertia of the pillar as opposed to Conkeldurr's own strength. At the start of a battle, Conkeldurr has to use a lot of his strength to get the pillars moving, but after that, I imagine just kinda keeps them spinning like a flywheel with minimal effort.

It's an elder, after all. It's past its prime, and while it's still incredibly strong, it can't handle the same kind of prolonged exertion it was once capable of. To make up for its physical shortcomings, Conkeldurr put the wisdom and experience it's acquired over the years to use and developed a new fighting style that's less strenuous on its body.
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All of this sounds totally reasonable, really. I just think that the wording on the original Pokédex entry is way off. It's also weird to me how...indirect the language is? Furthermore, what are the moves which reflect this fighting style? I don't really...see this game plan panning out based on what Conkeldurr learns. We can grant that the punch-based moves are for when Conkeldurr really gets serious, but what are the moves which utilise "spinning concrete"? Not Darkest Lariat, obviously. :P (And thus it would've made a lot of sense to allow Conkeldurr to learn that move, of course!)
 
HottieLamatie said:
Furthermore, what are the moves which reflect this fighting style?
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Just Brutal Swing and Defog. It's a combination of there being very few explicit spinning moves (basically just Rapid Spin, Darkest Lariat, and Double Iron Bash) and the usual disconnect between gameplay and lore that this thread was founded on.
 
DrPumpkinz said:
Just Brutal Swing and Defog. It's a combination of there being very few explicit spinning moves (basically just Rapid Spin, Darkest Lariat, and Double Iron Bash) and the usual disconnect between gameplay and lore that this thread was founded on.
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To the latter: fair! I do think there's even more room for creativity among moves that exist, though - any slash attack is hitting the same way a spin attack would; the latter could be used as the former, even. I can't really think of many moves which use implements (Branch Poke immediately comes to mind? Strength...Rock Throw?), and I think that Rock Throw could be the key to everything: concrete can be seen as rock, and spinning around to launch the concrete WOULD be centrifugal force, as Ironmage pointed out! Would be interested to know if Conkeldurr does any spinning in the anime, assuming there's been a Conkeldurr in a fight there?



In terms of Worldbuilding and exploration, my favourite setting for the Pokémon series is definitely the Orange Islands. It might be moot to ask about Crystal Onix, so I'll focus on something a bit more tangible: when Ash battles one of the Gym Leaders there, he countered a spinning Starmie using Thunderbolt with Squirtle spinning itself, water shooting out of all holes, with Hydro Pump. I'm interested in figuring out how it is that Squirtle uses Hydro Pump/where the water comes from and I'm also curious about if there's a connexion between Starmie's spinning and the generation of electricity that coincided with it. (And side-note: does anyone have any instances of a Starmie winning a battle in the series? TT_TT I love Staryu as well, who thankfully has a good track record, but I can't think of a single time a Starmie has won a Pokémon Battle...and Starmie lost the Pokémon race to Rapidash, if memory serves, but it made sense for the story, so we good :P)
 
HottieLamatie said:
I'm also curious about if there's a connexion between Starmie's spinning and the generation of electricity that coincided with it. (And side-note: does anyone have any instances of a Starmie winning a battle in the series? TT_TT I love Staryu as well, who thankfully has a good track record, but I can't think of a single time a Starmie has won a Pokémon Battle...and Starmie lost the Pokémon race to Rapidash, if memory serves, but it made sense for the story, so we good :P)
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I don't thing they're related. It's possible that the two sections of Starmie's body are of different materials (and thus generate a static charge if they rub together while rotating), but that seems too ingrained for a TM-only move. I expect it's more likely to be related to whatever organ handles their radio transmissions, or Starmie's just one of several psychic-types to get electric moves.

I will point out that Starmie has 10 points of speed over Rapidash, so your "good story" might be another of my "inconcistencies that stop me from enjoying the show."
 
Ironmage said:
I don't thing they're related. It's possible that the two sections of Starmie's body are of different materials (and thus generate a static charge if they rub together while rotating), but that seems too ingrained for a TM-only move. I expect it's more likely to be related to whatever organ handles their radio transmissions, or Starmie's just one of several psychic-types to get electric moves.
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For reference, the kind of rotation that Starmie did was full-body, as shown in this video (which starts right before the relevant clip):


They might be unrelated after all - the electricity is offence and the spinning is for increased manoeuvrability to enhance defence seems really smart and like something a competent gym leader would be capable of devising for a plan. There could also be electromagnetic forces at work regardless, since Rudy's Starmie can fly through the air like that, whereas Misty's Starmie got airborne only as part of some sort of lunching (for lack of a better word) attack.

Ironmage said:
I will point out that Starmie has 10 points of speed over Rapidash, so your "good story" might be another of my "inconcistencies that stop me from enjoying the show."
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It was a race with many factors involved, fwiw. Like, part of the course was going uphill, part was going downhill, part was going over water, there was interference from other contestants (and naturally, Team Rocket), so it wasn't a pure test of speed. I think that Starmie would not have won the race either way though, because each of the Pokémon had their trainer on their back (except for Squirtle, who Pikachu was riding). Starmie probably moves so quickly by launching itself in the air when on land, which would be slower going uphill, but really fucking fast going downhill, and pretty damn fast on neutral ground. Starmie can presumably swim really damn fast, too (as was displayed in that part of the race, which Misty and her Starmie won). The problem Starmie has in a race like this, though, is that Starmie probably can't do much of what can enable them to move so quickly on land (well, in the air) with a trainer on their back, whereas Rapidash is only really impeded by the extra weight. I should've mentioned that trainers were riding on each Pokémon's back and I apologise if not considering to mention it changed how you would have perceived this race in the anime. It wasn't intentional to leave such an important detail out. :C
 
On one hand, a horse being able to be ridden effectively is the intuitive answer. On the other hand, Starmie and Rapidash are pretty similar weights (80 and 90 kg respectively, Galar rapidash ties Starmie) and Starmie is the only one of the two to learn a move that expressly involves carrying a passenger (incidentally, it also learns a move about levitating an ally, so an argument could be made that the extra weight on a racing-trained starmie wouldn't apply downwards), so it's also pretty easy to say that full-on running with a trainer-sized load could break Rapidash's legs just as much as it could ground Starmie. So I guess its more of me liking my fantasy a little weirder.
 
Ironmage said:
On one hand, a horse being able to be ridden effectively is the intuitive answer. On the other hand, Starmie and Rapidash are pretty similar weights (80 and 90 kg respectively, Galar rapidash ties Starmie) and Starmie is the only one of the two to learn a move that expressly involves carrying a passenger (incidentally, it also learns a move about levitating an ally, so an argument could be made that the extra weight on a racing-trained starmie wouldn't apply downwards), so it's also pretty easy to say that full-on running with a trainer-sized load could break Rapidash's legs just as much as it could ground Starmie. So I guess its more of me liking my fantasy a little weirder.
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It's more about *how* Starmie moves outside the water and how that impacts the trainer, not the other way around. I don't think you'll wanna be on Starmie's back during this:


Also, this video further highlights my issue with Starmie in the anime: when does Starmie ever succeed at anything? Was trying to find a video of Ash battling Misty for the Cerulean City Badge, where Pidgeotto beats Starmie - I picked that one because I knew you'd see Starmie flying through the air...and in the meantime, I found this video and the video of Misty batting some random chick in the episode that she thought her Psyduck evolved into Golduck. Would you believe it? Misty's opponent sends out a Starmie who is quickly defeated! >.<
 
So apparently Tyrunt and Tyrantrum can learn Charm. Through level-up.

It arguably makes a tiny shred of sense with Tyrunt (it's kinda cute, and its Ultra Moon says it "frolics" sometimes) but I'm lost as to why it's also in Tyrantrum's level-up pool.
 
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