Pokémon X & Y In-game Tier List Discussion (MkII)

Reserving for Noibat and Bagon.


Noibat
Availability:
Terminus Cave, Victory Road (drops from the ceiling).
Stats: Mediocre aside from Speed as a Noibat, which tops out at 55 base Speed. Base 40/35/40 defences make this quite frail. Noivern has an astonishing 123 base Speed, but still suffers from 85/80/80 defences.
Typing: Flying/Dragon is pretty good. Too bad you can first get Noibat right before the Ice gym.
Movepool: Noibat has a decent movepool, getting Roost, Whirlwind, and Super Fang. It even gets Air Slash right as it evolves into Noivern. Unfortunately, Dragon Pulse isn't learned until Level 70 (or through a Heart Scale). Hurricane is very powerful, but Noivern can't learn Rain Dance.
Major Battles: While it's not very useful against Wulfric, it can be useful against Drasna,, as it can outrun her entire team with the exception of her Noivern. Noivern should not be used against Wikstrom (who resists both of its STABs) or Siebold (who has a super-effective move against Noivern on all four of his Pokémon).
Additional Comments: Infiltrator should be used over Frisk, as all trainer Pokémon in major battles will run a set item which can be found, say, on Bulbapedia or Serebii.
 
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DHR-107

Robot from the Future
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Orange Islands
Okay so with help from FMD and IAR on IRC, we roughly worked out the chances of Old Amber to be relatively good. FMD reckoned you should get at least one every two passes through the 8 rocks in the end of Glittering Cave.

When I went ahead on my latest game (Where I am using Aerodactyl), I got Old Amber on the last rock of the room. Revive/Revive/Dwebble/Dwebble/Hard Stone/Dwebble/Dwebble/Old Amber. I then SR'd about 4 times to get a Naive one (cause I was bored and it was the first +spe nature I got).

All in all, time taken was like 15~20 minutes. From entering the cave, fighting Team Flare, Getting the Jaw Fossil, smashing the rocks and then escape rope/travelling back. I don't think that's a huge hit on times honestly. We'll have to see how well it goes moving forwards. FMD also mentioned grabbing Bulldoze from Lumiose (which I totally forgot about so I'll have to backtrack) and I'll also be grabbing Aerial Ace from Zubat's Roost (after beating Grant). Both of those plus Bite will make Aero pretty versatile.

Pancham is okay at the moment... Mines neutral nature (after catching about 15) and it's not lacking for power but it is incredibly slow. I also need to pick up a random Dark type at some point in order to evolve it (which is not cool GF). Should be fine against Grant with Karate Chop. Rest of my team I can't really mention yet cause I haven't got to places where they are available naturally :P Clauncher/Gastly/Goomy (Clauncher is generic water type/Gastly is OP/Goomy is mediocre so far).
 
Why is Fennekin at A?
-It doesn't do sh*t against most gyms and E4
-Almost EVERY other Fire-type can do its job better
-Sucks in rival battles
-Barren movepool
-Sucks VS Team Flare
Fennekin to C, possibly D rank. It sucks and nobody should use it ever except to challenge themselves.

Froakie to A
-Does good against most gyms and E4
-Removes the need for a Water-type to be caught early on(RIP Azurill)
-Does great in rival battles
-Great movepool variety
-Great VS Team Flare. Only problem's they'll give you is Electrike
Froakie to A rank. It's a lot better than you give it credit for.

Chespin to A or B
-Does decent against gyms/E4
-Works well as a physical attacker
-Does great in rival battles
-Movepoll is OK
-It doesn't do good VS Team Flare. Or should I say, Gulpins n' Golbats.
Chespin to B, maybe A rank. It's pretty good.
 
Why is Fennekin at A?
-It doesn't do sh*t against most gyms and E4
-Almost EVERY other Fire-type can do its job better
-Sucks in rival battles
-Barren movepool
-Sucks VS Team Flare
Fennekin to C, possibly D rank. It sucks and nobody should use it ever except to challenge themselves.

Froakie to A
-Does good against most gyms and E4
-Removes the need for a Water-type to be caught early on(RIP Azurill)
-Does great in rival battles
-Great movepool variety
-Great VS Team Flare. Only problem's they'll give you is Electrike
Froakie to A rank. It's a lot better than you give it credit for.

Chespin to A or B
-Does decent against gyms/E4
-Works well as a physical attacker
-Does great in rival battles
-Movepoll is OK
-It doesn't do good VS Team Flare. Or should I say, Gulpins n' Golbats.
Chespin to B, maybe A rank. It's pretty good.
Let's see... Fennekin does great against Viola, Korrina, Ramos, melts Clemont's Magneton and Valerie's Mawile, (resisting the latter's STABs and not caring about Intimidate) Wulfric, Wikstrom, and a couple of Diantha's Pokemon. That's a lot more than "doesn't do sh*t against most gyms and E4". It also fares fine against Team Flare aside from Lysandre. Its move pool is lackluster, but its STABs and high Special Attack and Speed do well to compensate somewhat. A is fine.

I've got a feeling you're just theorymoning here...
 

Colonel M

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Ah yes, the gentleman who wanted Gallade in ORAS to rise.

*Clears throat*.
Why is Fennekin at A?
-It doesn't do sh*t against most gyms and E4
- Fennekin has a lead over the first, third, fourth, fifth, somewhat sixth, and eighth gym. What do you mean it doesn't do shit against most gyms?

The Elite 4? Well it doesn't even do horrid there either. Calm Mind at least neutralizes Malva and Wikstrom's mons are all weak to Fennekin. It even does okay against Diantha.
Fennekin to C, possibly D rank. It sucks and nobody should use it ever except to challenge themselves.
C or D? You're fucking joking right?
-Almost EVERY other Fire-type can do its job better
Aside from maybe Charmander I completely disagree.

- Fletchling isn't a bad Pokemon but it will be running Ember off its lower SpA until Flame Charge arrives. Once we get to Talonflame it is alright, but Fletchinder isn't too hot of a mon. Aside from Aerial Ace via TM that's about all you have.
- I don't think I have to go into huge detail on Simisear.
- Litleo isn't bad but it's cursed with a late evolution and has more gym disadvantages. What also doesn't help is that the majority of its attacks are running off of its weaker Attack stat. Hyper Voice is pretty late to be honest.
- lolFlareon
- SLugma is garbage
- Litwick isn't necessarily horrid but it's really late in the game at this point. Litwick is really bad and Lampent isn't writing good stories either. Chandelure is good but requirement of a Dusk Stone means the evolution is pretty late too.

So let's see... there's... only one better Fire-type right? Yeah. Only one.
-Sucks in rival battles
A lot of the Pokemon get into quirky situations with rival battles (Chespin kind of slides free but it's mainly because Calem gets Jolteon. Still, Flareon is pretty garbage enough with Fennekin.
-Barren movepool
Its movepool is fine.

Another Fire-type move is kind of late but it learns Psybeam in return at levels faster than freaking Kadabra. By the time Kadabra gets Confusion Braixen and Fennekin can possibly get Psybeam (Level 18 and 17, respectively). Psyshock at Level 34 helps bust through a lot of the higher SpD Pokemon and then Mystical Fire will carry Fennekin until it gets a good FIre-type move.
-Sucks VS Team Flare
Sort of. It's bad against Houndoom and not a candidate against Poochyena, but it beats the Poison-types easier. Not a great mon against Flare, but adequate.
Froakie to A
-Does good against most gyms and E4
Froakie is actually mediocre-to-bad against most gyms.

- It's not great against Viola. Fennekin does better.
- It's mediocre against Grant. Tyrunt takes neutral damage from Froakie's STAB. It's good against the gym trainers. It does okay against Grant. Nothing special.
- No performance advantage against Korrina.
- Frogadier needs Acrobatics against Rammos and even then it is bad news.
- Terrible against Clemont.
- If it gets to Greninja it actually can do mediocre against Valerie. Mawile is no threat, but Mr. Mime and Sylveon have STAB Dazzling Gleam.
- Does alright against Olympia.
- Wulfric isn't really a victory for Greninja.

Its gym leader performance screams mediocrity.

The Elite 4 performance? Better at least. Much more effective here.
-Removes the need for a Water-type to be caught early on(RIP Azurill)
Fennekin removes the need for a Fire-type to be caught early on (RIP Litleo).

Like a Fennekin player can use Squirtle or Bulbasaur just fine. Just like the Froakie player probably would pick up Charmander or Bulbasaur. There are a lot of good Water-types in this game. The same can't really be said for Fire-types.
-Does great in rival battles
Actually it's pretty crummy. It doesn't "beat" Meowstic until after it is a Greninja and Shadow Ball / STAB Dark Pulse is available (latter is really late). Furthermore, Vaporeon is likely more of a dead-end for Greninja than Flareon is for Delphox. Like are you kidding me? How is Greninja beating that much more in rival battles? Because Absol?
-Great movepool variety
The movepool variety doesn't really happen until Greninja.

Frogadier has access to Acrobatics and Bounce. Aside from that, it's so-so. Dig and Rock Tomb help, but the real problem is Frogadier wants access to an earlier Ice-type move to beat out Rammos and earlier Dark Pulse to actually do well against Olympia - among other things.
-Great VS Team Flare. Only problem's they'll give you is Electrike
If you don't pack Acrobatics or Aerial Ace Toxicroak can give a headache. Especially as Greninja since you would need Extrasensory to KO (which is too little too late).
Froakie to A rank. It's a lot better than you give it credit for.
I think you really undermime Froakie being a mediocre Pokemon. Its gym performance screams mediocrity with no real advantages even in types it should have advantages in, and some of Greninja's gravy moves are super late in the game.

Chespin to A or B
-Does decent against gyms/E4
- Horrible vs Viola
- Meh against Grant. Quillidan will always lose to Amaura and Tyrunt kind of doesn't really mind Quillidan's attacks.
- Doesn't do anything really against Korrina. Loses to Hawlucha for sure.
- Does what against Rammos again? Probably a really bad matchup just because it faces Jumpluff and Weepinbell. Both have SE moves against Quillidan. Does nice against Gogoat though.
- At least resists moves in Clemont's gym. Bad against Emolga.
- Chesnaught suffers a disadvantage against Valerie for sure. Only one Chesnaught beats reliably is Mawile.
- Definitely loses to Olympia. Only advantage is against Slowking.
- Somewhat loses to Wulfric. Abomasnow and Chesnaught can get close in Speed and Chesnaught is playing against moves that Chesnaught doesn't really want to take head-on.

Against the Elite 4 it's bad against Malva and Drasna. I wouldn't really call it stellar against Siebold because Starmie kind of wrecks your shit but it does okay against the others (Clawitzer hurts though). Does decently against Wikstrom at least up to Aegislash. I wouldn't call Chesnaught great against Diantha but it does "okay".
[qoute]-Does great in rival battles[/quote]
Kind of. It does okay against Jolteon and Absol, but it's bad against Meowstic for the most part and still loses to Delphox pretty hard.
-Movepoll is OK
Starting movepool is kind of rough. You're stuck with Vine Whip and Pin Missile. You eventually get Needle Arm to help. Hammer Arm is kind of late so you're stuck with TM Fighting-type moves for a while. Adequate movepool. Nothing is super late except Rock Slide and Stone Edge.
-It doesn't do good VS Team Flare. Or should I say, Gulpins n' Golbats.
Also horrible against Houndours and co.
Chespin to B, maybe A rank. It's pretty good.
Maybe B at best, but I doubt it. I think once again you're highly overstating Chespin as a Pokemon and not realizing it has critical flaws - bigger than Froakie's even.
 
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Ah yes, the gentleman who wanted Gallade in ORAS to rise.

*Clears throat*.

- Fennekin has a lead over the first, third, fourth, fifth, somewhat sixth, and eighth gym. What do you mean it doesn't do shit against most gyms?

The Elite 4? Well it doesn't even do horrid there either. Calm Mind at least neutralizes Malva and Wikstrom's mons are all weak to Fennekin. It even does okay against Diantha.

C or D? You're fucking joking right?

Aside from maybe Charmander I completely disagree.

- Fletchling isn't a bad Pokemon but it will be running Ember off its lower SpA until Flame Charge arrives. Once we get to Talonflame it is alright, but Fletchinder isn't too hot of a mon. Aside from Aerial Ace via TM that's about all you have.
- I don't think I have to go into huge detail on Simisear.
- Litleo isn't bad but it's cursed with a late evolution and has more gym disadvantages. What also doesn't help is that the majority of its attacks are running off of its weaker Attack stat. Hyper Voice is pretty late to be honest.
- lolFlareon
- SLugma is garbage
- Litwick isn't necessarily horrid but it's really late in the game at this point. Litwick is really bad and Lampent isn't writing good stories either. Chandelure is good but requirement of a Dusk Stone means the evolution is pretty late too.

So let's see... there's... only one better Fire-type right? Yeah. Only one.

A lot of the Pokemon get into quirky situations with rival battles (Chespin kind of slides free but it's mainly because Calem gets Jolteon. Still, Flareon is pretty garbage enough with Fennekin.

Its movepool is fine.

Another Fire-type move is kind of late but it learns Psybeam in return at levels faster than freaking Kadabra. By the time Kadabra gets Confusion Braixen and Fennekin can possibly get Psybeam (Level 18 and 17, respectively). Psyshock at Level 34 helps bust through a lot of the higher SpD Pokemon and then Mystical Fire will carry Fennekin until it gets a good FIre-type move.

Sort of. It's bad against Houndoom and not a candidate against Poochyena, but it beats the Poison-types easier. Not a great mon against Flare, but adequate.

Froakie is actually mediocre-to-bad against most gyms.

- It's not great against Viola. Fennekin does better.
- It's mediocre against Grant. Tyrunt takes neutral damage from Froakie's STAB. It's good against the gym trainers. It does okay against Grant. Nothing special.
- No performance advantage against Korrina.
- Frogadier needs Acrobatics against Rammos and even then it is bad news.
- Terrible against Clemont.
- If it gets to Greninja it actually can do mediocre against Valerie. Mawile is no threat, but Mr. Mime and Sylveon have STAB Dazzling Gleam.
- Does alright against Olympia.
- Wulfric isn't really a victory for Greninja.

Its gym leader performance screams mediocrity.

The Elite 4 performance? Better at least. Much more effective here.

Fennekin removes the need for a Fire-type to be caught early on (RIP Litleo).

Like a Fennekin player can use Squirtle or Bulbasaur just fine. Just like the Froakie player probably would pick up Charmander or Bulbasaur. There are a lot of good Water-types in this game. The same can't really be said for Fire-types.

Actually it's pretty crummy. It doesn't "beat" Meowstic until after it is a Greninja and Shadow Ball / STAB Dark Pulse is available (latter is really late). Furthermore, Vaporeon is likely more of a dead-end for Greninja than Flareon is for Delphox. Like are you kidding me? How is Greninja beating that much more in rival battles? Because Absol?

The movepool variety doesn't really happen until Greninja.

Frogadier has access to Acrobatics and Bounce. Aside from that, it's so-so. Dig and Rock Tomb help, but the real problem is Frogadier wants access to an earlier Ice-type move to beat out Rammos and earlier Dark Pulse to actually do well against Olympia - among other things.

If you don't pack Acrobatics or Aerial Ace Toxicroak can give a headache. Especially as Greninja since you would need Extrasensory to KO (which is too little too late).

I think you really undermime Froakie being a mediocre Pokemon. Its gym performance screams mediocrity with no real advantages even in types it should have advantages in, and some of Greninja's gravy moves are super late in the game.


- Horrible vs Viola
- Meh against Grant. Quillidan will always lose to Amaura and Tyrunt kind of doesn't really mind Quillidan's attacks.
- Doesn't do anything really against Korrina. Loses to Hawlucha for sure.
- Does what against Rammos again? Probably a really bad matchup just because it faces Jumpluff and Weepinbell. Both have SE moves against Quillidan. Does nice against Gogoat though.
- At least resists moves in Clemont's gym. Bad against Emolga.
- Chesnaught suffers a disadvantage against Valerie for sure. Only one Chesnaught beats reliably is Mawile.
- Definitely loses to Olympia. Only advantage is against Slowking.
- Somewhat loses to Wulfric. Abomasnow and Chesnaught can get close in Speed and Chesnaught is playing against moves that Chesnaught doesn't really want to take head-on.

Against the Elite 4 it's bad against Malva and Drasna. I wouldn't really call it stellar against Siebold because Starmie kind of wrecks your shit but it does okay against the others (Clawitzer hurts though). Does decently against Wikstrom at least up to Aegislash. I wouldn't call Chesnaught great against Diantha but it does "okay".

Kind of. It does okay against Jolteon and Absol, but it's bad against Meowstic for the most part and still loses to Delphox pretty hard.

Starting movepool is kind of rough. You're stuck with Vine Whip and Pin Missile. You eventually get Needle Arm to help. Hammer Arm is kind of late so you're stuck with TM Fighting-type moves for a while. Adequate movepool. Nothing is super late except Rock Slide and Stone Edge.

Also horrible against Houndours and co.

Maybe B at best, but I doubt it. I think once again you're highly overstating Chespin as a Pokemon and not realizing it has critical flaws - bigger than Froakie's even.
I wouldn't say Chespin is horrible against Viola... it does get Rollout at level 8 to more than compensate. It can likely destroy her in just a couple of turns provided it doesn't miss, and somehow I don't feel Infestation is all too threatening. The rest of your points seem pretty sound, especially with regard to Fennekin and the relatively horrid choices for Fire types other than Charmander.
 
Being fair to Chespin (since I used him), he's got some versatility in moves that let him take on certain Pokemon with TMs. I'll fully admit I was over-leveled when I fought Ramos, but Chesnaught survived a 4x Acrobatics and OHKOd with Poison Jab. I imagine it wouldn't be too much worse with Quilladin (Jumpluff would be hitting 2x and its defense is meh, so Quilladin's got a shot).

It's not enough for a tier change, but Chespin's not horrendous.C seems fine for him, mayyyyybbbbeee B if you squint really hard.
 
Small question about tiering: Can we factor in Megastone which aren't aviable normally with the power of trading? Or is that not allowed for this tierlist?
 

Its_A_Random

A distant memory
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I am not considering mega stones that you do not get until the post-game for the same reason anything else normally unobtainable until the post-game is not being tiered; tier lists almost always only consider trades when it comes to trade evolutions (i.e. the sole exception).

Also I hope to update the OP some time this weekend; watch this space.
 
Let's see... Fennekin does great against Viola, Korrina, Ramos, melts Clemont's Magneton and Valerie's Mawile, (resisting the latter's STABs and not caring about Intimidate) Wulfric, Wikstrom, and a couple of Diantha's Pokemon. That's a lot more than "doesn't do sh*t against most gyms and E4". It also fares fine against Team Flare aside from Lysandre. Its move pool is lackluster, but its STABs and high Special Attack and Speed do well to compensate somewhat. A is fine.

I've got a feeling you're just theorymoning here...
---GYM LEADER CHART---
It actually doesn't do so hot(pun=intended) against Viola because Surskit reliably 2 shots it with Bubble.
Grant-RIP
The only Psychic move Braixen knows by the time you're at Korrina is Psybeam(Psyshock if you grind hard.)
Not gonna argue about Ramos,Clemont's Magneton,Valerie,or Wulfric. Bulldoze from Gogoat gives you problems, though.
Olympia-All of her Pokemon have moves that beat other Psychics except for Sigilyph.
---E4 CHART---
Wikstrom has Probopass. You're a liar if you think Delphox will tank a Rock move from Probopass.
Drasna and Siebold-RIP
Malva-Torkoal and Chandelure=RIP
Diantha-A couple? Really? The only ones it goes good against are Hawlucha and Gourgiest. And if you misclick and/or switch Delphox in on it, you will be taking a heavy ghost move to the face, courtesy of Gourgeist.
---TEAM FLARE CHART---
Team Flare-Hey look,Mightyenas,Houndooms,Scrafties and Liepards are everywhere! Also, it loses to Bryony's Bisharp,Celosia's Drapion,Mable's Weevil and Xerosic's Malamar.
Lysandre-Only beats Mienshao. Pyroar has Dark Pulse(all battles) and Honchkrow and Gyarados also are there.
---OTHER STUFF CHART---
Movepool-Like you said, it's lackluster.
Stats-It's Speed is average,as well as it's Special Attack. That does not "compensate somewhat" for its terribleness.
----FINAL VERDICT---
I think that the developers WANTED players to believe that Fennekin was the best starter out of the 3, but when you looked at the gyms,E4 and villains for a period time longer than 5 microseconds, you find out that it sucks. Really bad. I wasn't theorymonning when I said Fennekin should be moved into D, because D stands for Dumpster and that's where you put garbage.
 

Colonel M

GAOOO
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After this post please have someone bring me alcohol to my house so I can savor the victory. I'll need it after this post.
---GYM LEADER CHART---
It actually doesn't do so hot(pun=intended) against Viola because Surskit reliably 2 shots it with Bubble.
Okay, so it struggles against one Pokemon (Surskit). I can agree to that. It still will truck through Vivilion, which is usually where more teams will struggle through. Even Chespin players don't like Vivilion because STAB Infestation can be a nuisance. We won't even go over Froakie in here. It is terrible in this gym.
Grant-RIP
Only against Tyrunt. Amauru can still be chipped by Braxien. It isn't wonders but it can contribute. Tyrunt is rather weak in the SpD department so STAB Psybeam will at least hurt.
The only Psychic move Braixen knows by the time you're at Korrina is Psybeam(Psyshock if you grind hard.)
So we concede to Fennekin beating Korrina? Smart. So we have a Gym and a half so far to Chespin's Gym and a half and Froakie's one.
Not gonna argue about Ramos,Clemont's Magneton,Valerie,or Wulfric. Bulldoze from Gogoat gives you problems, though.
As does Acrobatics from Jumpluff for Quillidan and basically everything for Frogadier.

So lets see that is now... about 5 gyms. Out of 8. I merged Clemont and Viola's contributions together.
Olympia-All of her Pokemon have moves that beat other Psychics except for Sigilyph.
Delphox also has moves that are dangerous for Olympia (Shadow Ball, Grass Knot). Granted Olympia is done better by other Pokemon Delphox is admittidely average here.
---E4 CHART---
Wikstrom has Probopass. You're a liar if you think Delphox will tank a Rock move from Probopass.
I can guarantee that Delphox will almost always survive a STAB Power Gem from 75 SpA Probopass.

Calm Mind on Klefki.

Torment may eventually halt it, but Delphox only needs maybe 1 or 2 to sweep through Wikstrom. He really isnt hard for Delphox.
Drasna and Siebold-RIP
Actually Drasna could lose to Delphox easily. Delphox is much faster than Dragalge and Surf is not STAB. Eventually her other mons are slower barring Noivern which has special moves.

Siebold... yes. Delphox loses to Siebold.
Malva-Torkoal and Chandelure=RIP
*sigh*

Youre setting up Delphox against the Pyroar. Aside from Wild Charge coming off of its weaker Attack stat nothing is threatening Delphox while setting up Calm Mind. Note - Torkoal has a much weaker SpD stat than Def.

And Chandelure? The one who will be OHKOed after setting up Calm Minds? Okay.
Diantha-A couple? Really? The only ones it goes good against are Hawlucha and Gourgiest. And if you misclick and/or switch Delphox in on it, you will be taking a heavy ghost move to the face, courtesy of Gourgeist.
Misclick?

Did your argument go so low you have to rely on putting Fennekin to D with Misclick?

Really?

The tier list player, as well as myself, does not make childish mistakes like you are addressing. The tier list player will carefully evaluate the situation and know the game plan ahead of time. This isnt competitive mons where things like that have to be assumed at times. The margin of error is very small - mostly it is due to bad luck (crit) where error will occur for a tier list player.

The tier list player is not incompetent. Stop.

Diantha can lose to Delphox quite a bit actually. If you can lure Auros in it is gg for her entire team. At worst Light Screen might hamper you slightly but setting up a few Calm Minds will help you survive other mons.
-
--TEAM FLARE CHART---
Team Flare-Hey look,Mightyenas,Houndooms,Scrafties and Liepards are everywhere! Also, it loses to Bryony's Bisharp,Celosia's Drapion,Mable's Weevil and Xerosic's Malamar.
Lysandre-Only beats Mienshao. Pyroar has Dark Pulse(all battles) and Honchkrow and Gyarados also are there.
Flare is one of the few moments where Delphox maybe struggles. And even then it is still useful because Poison-types exists. Nevermind a majority of these mons dont even resist Flamethrower (like lolBisharp). Some of these Dark-type mons dont exist until very late like Mightyena which is almost past Valerie. If we want to get super technical at that point Delphox has Dazzling Gleam to at least combat it. It also is x4 effective against Scraggy. Okay so apparently it only learned Dazzling Gleam in ORAS. Please ignore that statement from the record.

Theres Gulpins and Zubats still as well.
---OTHER STUFF CHART---
Movepool-Like you said, it's lackluster.
Movepool is lackluster but it gets everything it needs.

Ember helps for earlygame. Psybeam comes at a great time. Eventually Fire moves become more readily available at Delphox. Access to Shadow Ball and Psyshock via level up and Heart Scale. Calm Mind after Olympia to help power through the Elite 4.
Stats-It's Speed is average,as well as it's Special Attack. That does not "compensate somewhat" for its terribleness.
Delphox's stats are fine. 104 Speed is good enough to help Delphox overcome the majority of Pokemon. 114 SpA is also not bad. And 100 SpD is useful for Delphox during situations with setting up Calm Mind against some Pokemon like Dragalge.
----FINAL VERDICT---
I think that the developers WANTED players to believe that Fennekin was the best starter out of the 3, but when you looked at the gyms,E4 and villains for a period time longer than 5 microseconds, you find out that it sucks. Really bad. I wasn't theorymonning when I said Fennekin should be moved into D, because D stands for Dumpster and that's where you put garbage.
You were almost completely theorymonning, and being absolutely horrible at it.

Ill buy that Fennekin -may- be too high. I could realistically see B being viable. But D? With Butterfree and shit? Fuck no. You're lucky I am even acknowledging your shoddy argument merely out of pure boredom and minor humor. This is like smash_fanatic Mia hating bad, and for some reason I am enjoying it.

Ah, the nostalgic sadomasochist rush. It feels great.

In conclusion:

- Fennekin still has more of a gym advantage than your overhyped Froakie.
- Fennekin may struggle against Team Flare at times, but their teams also have a variety of types that still help Fennekin and still harm others like Froakie, Chespin, etc.
- Fennekin has a fine enough E4 advantage and still performs well against gyms. And I look past 5 microseconds - unlike Victory Victreebel! here as concluded by his evidence of failure to understand scenarios such as how weak Probopass really is and saying things like "Torkoal = RIP" even though I highly doubt Torkoal could ever OHKO a full health Delphox barring the most absurd of circumstances.

Tl;dr version - Victory Victreebel! has once again failed to give conclusive evidence on why Fennekin is D barring with some shoddy way of downplaying Fennekin sorely on its performance against Team Flare - a team organization that still requires a little team balance as they have a variety of types.

At worst - Fennekin for B. At best - Fennekin for A.
 
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Slight nitpick on Fennekin (I don't know to snip posts and that one's a monster), but Delphox can only learn Dazzling Gleam in ORAS for some weird reason. So Team Flare game suffers a bit from that. Still, you can always pick up Fire Pledge before Valerie if you're that worried about fire STAB, and you might be able to rip apart Barbaracle thanks to a 4x Grass Knot guaranteed 80 power. And yes, the "misclick" idea is extremely stupid.
 

Its_A_Random

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For what it is worth, I am open to a Fennekin drop though I would rather see a bit more discussion on the matter.

Anyhow going to go and update the OP now.

EDIT: OP updated after an hour of QCing entries.
 
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Actually, Braixen is a pure fire-type so Psybeam won't be getting a STAB boost, meaning you'll be barely denting Tyrunt and Korrina's mons have the upperhand against you since you can't defend against their attacks well.

I personally wouldn't compare Fennekin's gym performance to that of the other starters since Fennekin's tier lead pinpoints that it's superior to those two (which are mostly mediocre in themselves). I guess it does prove Fennekin isn't worthy of moving down to D-tier, but who in their right mind would be worried about that?

It still seems more at home in A tier if we look who we've got in B.
 
Actually, Braixen is a pure fire-type so Psybeam won't be getting a STAB boost, meaning you'll be barely denting Tyrunt and Korrina's mons have the upperhand against you since you can't defend against their attacks well.

I personally wouldn't compare Fennekin's gym performance to that of the other starters since Fennekin's tier lead pinpoints that it's superior to those two (which are mostly mediocre in themselves). I guess it does prove Fennekin isn't worthy of moving down to D-tier, but who in their right mind would be worried about that?

It still seems more at home in A tier if we look who we've got in B.
Agreed on Tyrunt (don't think anyone was seriously considering using Braixen against the Rock-type gym), but Korrina's mons have pretty weak Special Defense, and Braixen's base 90 Special Attack with a super effective move of decent power. So you can at least beat Mienfoo (which can only throw Fake-Out and Power Up Punch at you) and dent Machoke, though I imagine you get smacked by Rock Tomb.
 
In a world where Fennekin deserved D-tier, Chespin would be F-tier.
It's fine in A-tier. Braixen's performance is so-so, but that's why it's not S-tier. Fennekin is the best of the 3 starters by a wide margin.
 
In a world where Fennekin deserved D-tier, Chespin would be F-tier.
It's fine in A-tier. Braixen's performance is so-so, but that's why it's not S-tier. Fennekin is the best of the 3 starters by a wide margin.
Give me solid evidence as to why it's the best by a wide margin and then i might believe you.
So far this thread has failed to do that.
(Colonel M: I tested. Delphox can't tank a Power gem or an earthquake)
 

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