Pokémon X & Y In-game Tier List Discussion

[Its_A_Random]

Litleo CAN solo Viola. Potions exist and you are certain to have Work Up already. Work Up + Headbutt destroys her.

... And how many Potions do you need to achieve that?

Work Up + Headbutt is a pretty inefficient strategy though if I do say so myself (unless you can guarantee a OHKO against both Surskit & Vivillon after like one Work Up where you were 2HKOing before or something), even if it is just the first leader. Just keep it away from Surskit if you really have to if Bubble is dealing too much damage, or just simply spam Headbutt. Or something. Ember is better than Headbutt for Vivillon anyway at least.

That said, I might update the tiers tomorrow night (a reasonable timeframe since the last update for once).

 

[Banryu]

Okay I went ahead and linked a bunch of the writeups and primary opinions about placing for a bunch of Pokemon that hadn't listed yet. Pokemon that are underlined either-- 1) have at least one good writeup, or 2) mostly agreed upon by several people-- hopefully they can get some kind of preliminary ranking too.

Hide

Pancham - 1 said A-tier (x), 1 said B-tier (x)
Floette - 1 said D-tier (x), 1 said C-tier (x)
Skiddo - 1 said C-tier (x)
Spritzee - 1 said B-tier (x)
Inkay - many different opinions that seem to average out to about C-tier I guess
Clauncher - 1 said D/E-tier (x), 1 said C-tier (x)
Skrelp - 1 said B-tier (x)
Helioptile - 1 said B-tier (x), 1 said C-tier (x)
Amaura - 1 said D-tier which seems fairly agreed upon (x)
Tyrunt - a few people said B-tier (x)
Hawlucha - 2 said A-tier (x / x), 2 said B-tier (x / x)
Klefki - 1 said C-tier (x)
Goomy - 2 said C-tier (x / x)
Noibat - 1 said D-tier (x)

Pidgey - 1 said D-tier (x)
Pikachu - 1 said C-tier (x)
Cloyster - 1 said B-tier (x)
Tentacool - 1 said B-tier (x)
Farfetch'd - 1 said C-tier (x), a few other people agree good 1st gym game and good utility after that
Kangaskhan - 1 said A-tier (x)
Mr. Mime - more or less equal to Gardevoir (x)
Lapras - 2 said B-tier which seems to be a fairly averaged/general consensus (x / x)
Aerodactyl - a few people said A-tier
Jolteon - 1 said C-tier (x)
Ampharos - 1 said C-tier (x)
Snubbull - 1 said C/D-tier (x)
Miltank - 1 said C-tier (x)
Pupitar - 1 said C-tier (x)
Zigzagoon - 1 said D-tier (x)
Nincada - 1 said E-tier (x)
Shedinja - 1 said F-tier (x)
Gulpin - 1 said D-tier (x)
Zangoose - 1 said B-tier (x)
Trapinch - 1 said B-tier (x)
Absol - 2 said B-tier (x / x)
Bagon - 1 said A-tier but sounds possibly too high (x)
Meditite - 1 said B-tier (x)
Vespiquen - 1 said D/C-tier (x); I second C for utility purposes
Mantyke - 1 said C-tier (x)
Gible - 2 said A/B-tier (x / x)
Purrloin - 1 said F-tier (x)
Ducklett - 1 said B-tier (x)
Scraggy - 1 said B-tier (x)
Stunfisk - 1 said D-tier (x)
Beartic - 1 said E-tier (x)
Axew - 3 said B-tier (x / x / x)

I hope this helps to get some of these Pokemon a bit more attention after that several-page debate on Honedge and other S-tier guys.

 

[Its_A_Random]

I guess I might do an update to the tiers now.

Fletchling: B-Tier -> C-Tier
Inkay: N/A -> Limbo (C/D-Tier)
Panpour: N/A -> Limbo (C/D-Tier)
Tyrunt: Limbo (A/B-Tier) -> B-Tier

Like before, all tierings are provisional until this tier list is sent to C&C. If you disagree with the tiering of something in some tier, do not be afraid to speak up & say why something should be lower or higher; it will be considered. It also means you are still welcome to nominate something tiered for another tier or validate its tiering.

Fletchling was the mistake "too high" call, so I bumped it down. I am not fully convinced if Inkay & Panpour are either definitely C-Tier or D-Tier, so I have thrown them into Limbo in-between C & D for further discussion, though Panpour feels more like a D to me, since it has a tendency to die a lot before evolution from what I have used of it. Tyrunt's need for babying & its bad mid-game before it evolves pretty much means it is only worthy of B-Tier.

Other than that, keep up the good work folks.

 

[Millky95]

Seconding the above, I argued Talonflame for C in my first post, even with exp. share on its power is underwhelming. To quote: "Its a bird, its not particularly strong. Mine did everything I asked it to but the problem was there wasn't a whole lot I could ask it to do without it potentially failing. It's very limited in movepool until the very late game and its power underwhelms at all stages. The definition of average."

It has a lot of movepool issues, a reliance on the tutor for its best attacks and mediocre power. Its good against the early gyms but struggles heavily with the majority of the late game.

B tier and up should be "these Pokemon have a notable reason to use them over others." With Talonflame it is completely average/medicore/meh and fits perfectly into C.

I completely agree. I used Talonfalme with Exp Share. I never got the Tutor moves so mine was stuck with Fly and Flame Charge. Weak with OK type but fast and early. Completely fits with C

I say Tyrunt A/B and I honestly think it's more B or C. Maybe D if there are better options out there. I will admit I used Exp Share and found Tyrunt difficult to have. Particularly early on. Tyrunt was always my least leveled until it evolved and was very slow and struggled to do anything truly useful. When it evolved it changed somewhat being able to hit very, very hard but I believe due to Exp Share it was faster than it should've been, even though at worst it was 4 levels higher than gym leaders. B tier at best because it comes early, good STABs and when it evolves it hits like a truck but more likely C due to it being tough to level early, doesn't get mood moves until late and is very slow.

 

[Squid Ninja]

I used a Clauncher in my X version. Here's my opinion:

Availability: Ambrette Town/Route 8/ Cyllage City. Need to backtrack after getting Good Rod. You do receive Fly in the same town though, so it isn't a hassle.
Stats: As a Clauncher, its stats are sorta mixed, but he becomes a full time Special attacker when he evolves.
Typing: Pure Water is always great.
Movepool: Decent. In the beginning you can teach it Surf and right after Coumarine City you can train it against a bunch of Ground types. You are stuck with Surf as your main attacking move until Dendemille Town, which isn't terrible considering how great typing it is. With the Move Relearner, you can give tons of coverage options, such as Aura Sphere, Dark Pulse and Dragon Pulse. Due to Mega Launcher, they receive pseudo-STAB, making them nearly as strong as Surf. Also, since you have to return to where the Luvdiscs are to catch, getting extra Heart Scales isn't a hassle. If you don't like putting HMs on your 'Mon, he also gets Water Pulse that is just as strong as Surf with Mega Launcher.
Major Battles: Catch him after the Ramos fight since he won't help you there. Can't do much against Clemont, hits the Fairy Gym hard with Surf/Water Pulse, can wreck Olympia and Wulfric with 'STAB' Dark Pulse and Aura Sphere respectively. Against Avalugg, its not even funny: he outspeeds and shots a 120 BP SE move on 130 Sp.Atk against 46 base Sp.Def. Versus the Elite 4 he can wreck Malva, use DragonPulse/Ice Beam on Drasna, resists Steel STAB against Wikstrom and ties with Siebold. Just avoid Azumarrill, that thing just walls him. Against Diantha, he can get SEs against Hawlucha (Ice Beam), Tyrantrum (Aura Sphere/Dragon Pulse/Ice Beam), Amaura (Surf/Aura Sphere), Gourgeist (Dark Pulse, although he will probably die first) and Goodra (Ice Beam/ Dragon Pulse).
Additional Comments: He has great offensive stats, typing and a great ability with a movepool to abuse it. His coverage is absolutely AMAZING, with Water/Ice/Dark/Fighting only resisted by Azumarill and 3 of them get STAB. His biggest flaw is his Speed though, that sets him back a lot.

I argue for him to go to B tier.

 

[Goutland]

I was the one who first nominated Clauncher for D/E, although now I'd say it's not as terrible as some of the current E-nominated mons, so I guess I still support D for it, possibly C at best but I still think that's pushing it. I'd just like to remind everyone that literally everything works in game if you want it to (bar most F tier mons) so nominating everything for A/B tier like everyone is doing doesn't accomplish much. Some things perform better than others and I think Clauncher/Clawitzer are definitely on the lower end of the spectrum performance-wise for in game.

My post is linked in the compilation above, but here are some key points I mentioned which explain why I support D rank:

-Comes underleveled (requires Good Rod and backtracking to get it) and requires a lot of babying until it's even remotely useful
-Requires heart scales to reach full potential
-Slow and not even that bulky, so it's a potion guzzler
-Mediocre performance on the last 4 gyms, however performs decently against the Elite 4

A new point I'd like to mention now: Its coverage is really overrated. Especially for in-game, coverage hardly matters as long you have a strong STAB and 1-2 decent moves to back it up. A good mon to compare Clauncher to is Lapras; although not as powerful, Lapras has much more bulk, similar coverage, and does not require the massive amount of babying Clauncher does. I definitely cannot support it for the same tier as a pokemon that greatly outperforms it and requires no effort to use effectively (doesn't evolve, no moves to relearn, plus it's FREE).

 

[sickweare]

Okay I went ahead and linked a bunch of the writeups and primary opinions about placing for a bunch of Pokemon that hadn't listed yet. Pokemon that are underlined either-- 1) have at least one good writeup, or 2) mostly agreed upon by several people-- hopefully they can get some kind of preliminary ranking too.

Hide

Pancham - 1 said A-tier (x), 1 said B-tier (x)
Floette - 1 said D-tier (x), 1 said C-tier (x)
Skiddo - 1 said C-tier (x)
Spritzee - 1 said B-tier (x)
Inkay - many different opinions that seem to average out to about C-tier I guess
Clauncher - 1 said D/E-tier (x), 1 said C-tier (x)
Skrelp - 1 said B-tier (x)
Helioptile - 1 said B-tier (x), 1 said C-tier (x)
Amaura - 1 said D-tier which seems fairly agreed upon (x)
Tyrunt - a few people said B-tier (x)
Hawlucha - 2 said A-tier (x / x), 2 said B-tier (x / x)
Klefki - 1 said C-tier (x)
Goomy - 2 said C-tier (x / x)
Noibat - 1 said D-tier (x)

Pidgey - 1 said D-tier (x)
Pikachu - 1 said C-tier (x)
Cloyster - 1 said B-tier (x)
Tentacool - 1 said B-tier (x)
Farfetch'd - 1 said C-tier (x), a few other people agree good 1st gym game and good utility after that
Kangaskhan - 1 said A-tier (x)
Mr. Mime - more or less equal to Gardevoir (x)
Lapras - 2 said B-tier which seems to be a fairly averaged/general consensus (x / x)
Aerodactyl - a few people said A-tier
Jolteon - 1 said C-tier (x)
Ampharos - 1 said C-tier (x)
Snubbull - 1 said C/D-tier (x)
Miltank - 1 said C-tier (x)
Pupitar - 1 said C-tier (x)
Zigzagoon - 1 said D-tier (x)
Nincada - 1 said E-tier (x)
Shedinja - 1 said F-tier (x)
Gulpin - 1 said D-tier (x)
Zangoose - 1 said B-tier (x)
Trapinch - 1 said B-tier (x)
Absol - 2 said B-tier (x / x)
Bagon - 1 said A-tier but sounds possibly too high (x)
Meditite - 1 said B-tier (x)
Vespiquen - 1 said D/C-tier (x); I second C for utility purposes
Mantyke - 1 said C-tier (x)
Gible - 2 said A/B-tier (x / x)
Purrloin - 1 said F-tier (x)
Ducklett - 1 said B-tier (x)
Scraggy - 1 said B-tier (x)
Stunfisk - 1 said D-tier (x)
Beartic - 1 said E-tier (x)
Axew - 3 said B-tier (x / x / x)

I hope this helps to get some of these Pokemon a bit more attention after that several-page debate on Honedge and other S-tier guys.

Looks good. However, I still disagree about in Amaura in D as I've stated through this thread. Yeah it's defensive typing isn't amazing, but it still has good bulk, an excellent move pool with decent offensive stats and has generally decent matchups excluding Korrina. Basically keep it away from Korrina and Wilkstrom and it is effective in major battles. I still argue for C.

Also I did a write up of Nidoking for B a while back and got one person to give me feedback. If anyone else would touch on that that'd be great. I think it's a solid pokemon with an amazing ingame typing.

Anyways I just wanted to bring up my arguments since they weren't really acknowledged (I'm not mad or complaining I just wanted to bring them up c: )

 

[GatoDelFuego]

Several of my posts argue for gallade to A rather than B, due to a more powerful stab move (close combat is a move relearner level 1 move), massive coverage, and easier evolution method (shiny stone from super training, I view it similar to poke-amie for sylveon) that lets you get it at level 20. If that's still totally out of the question, at least differentiate it from gardevoir and put it in B.

 

[Banryu]

Looks good. However, I still disagree about in Amaura in D as I've stated through this thread. Yeah it's defensive typing isn't amazing, but it still has good bulk, an excellent move pool with decent offensive stats and has generally decent matchups excluding Korrina. Basically keep it away from Korrina and Wilkstrom and it is effective in major battles. I still argue for C.

Also I did a write up of Nidoking for B a while back and got one person to give me feedback. If anyone else would touch on that that'd be great. I think it's a solid pokemon with an amazing ingame typing.

Anyways I just wanted to bring up my arguments since they weren't really acknowledged (I'm not mad or complaining I just wanted to bring them up c: )

I didn't mean to ignore anyone; I DID go through the whole thread so it's a definite possibility that I'd miss someone. ~___@ sorry about that. Could we get a link to your Nidoking post? I don't really care to dig back through all the pages again.

 

[sickweare]

I didn't mean to ignore anyone; I DID go through the whole thread so it's a definite possibility that I'd miss someone. ~___@ sorry about that. Could we get a link to your Nidoking post? I don't really care to dig back through all the pages again.

Hey it's no problem I totally get it. I can't link things on my phone but I won't be on my computer for a few days but it is on page 5 towards the bottom.

 

[Banryu]

Hey it's no problem I totally get it. I can't link things on my phone but I won't be on my computer for a few days but it is on page 5 towards the bottom.

Allright, I found it. The writeup looks pretty good to me, but I'm kind of curious to hear opinions of others on Nidoking (though I suppose it's unlikely that anyone else used him ~__~). I don't feel like it paints as complete a picture as some of the other writeups. 4MSS could be either really good or really bad for it, since it looks like it has a huge movepool, but would have trouble actually choosing which moves to use. I guess that makes it pretty good as like a flexible backup-coverage Pokemon.

Regarding Panpour and Inkay in Limbo between C and D, I guess my question is what would be the dividing line or power threshold to determine how well things are ranked in the lower tiers…? How good does something have to be to be C over D, and/or how much does it have to struggle to get dropped to D? I think Panpour and Inkay are probably going to the same tier due to how much they both struggle early on, although by the sound of it, Inkay tends to do a bit better late-game once it has access to Superpower and its STABs.

I rated Raichu and Jolteon as both being C-tier, since they have pretty good offenses and get some decent moves, but they struggle midgame with rather mediocre movepools, and Electric isn't a hugely useful type through most of the game (except where Team Flare is concerned). And then Amaura and Zigzagoon at D-tier sound pretty appropriate, I suppose.

Maybe it would help us to get a pretty solid example in each tier to give us an idea of what sort of power thresholds are appropriate for each.

 

[sickweare]

I apologize if it does not paint a complete picture. I tried to explain that it is a very solid Pokemon with a great typing, good STABs, and humongous movepool. However, it does have that sort of 4MSS where it can't do everything at once, and it often relies on its TMs because of Nidorino's bland level-up movepool and Nidoking's small level-up movepool. However, it's strong and reliable as an attacker (and even as a HM slave that can actually use those moves). His limitations, I believe, make him a b-tier Pokemon.

I guess this is rather moot, however, seeing as not many others have used it outside of me. Anyway thank you for your input! I would love to know how I could make any argument I make clearer.

Also, I don't think Amaura and Zigzagoon belong in the same tier ;_; I think Amaura is way more capable of carrying its weight throughout the game, as I've argued before. Zigzagoon lacks in the later half of the game whereas Auroros is still going strong with a great movepool, decent offenses and enough bulk to take on attacks that aren't steel or fighting typed.

 

[Lucchini]

Am I the only one who feels Roserade doesn't belong in S-tier?

It has to wait for lv. 37 to stone-evolve just so that it can have Petal Dance, and its physical defence is too low.

I do agree that speed and attack take priority over all else on the tier list, but Roserade's durability problems will still be visible whenever she fails to OHKO (or outspeed).

Better midgame than Ivysaur still, but it's such a glass cannon.

 

[GameMaster0000]

IMO Pental Dance anot actually need. He access Giga Drain that is very good move it's also help problem of bulk for him

Also, Shiny Stone availble at route 12 most time his level is around 34-35 just little more leveling to get Pental Dance

 

[Lucchini]

The power increase between the two is quite big - 50% in fact.

Roselia's level when you get the Shiny Stone is probably around 30 or so (not using Exp Share and training a party). My party is at those levels when I face Ramos, and you get the stone before that.

So the benefit from having Petal Dance is significant and the gap between the earliest time to evolve and learning the move is also substantial.

 

[atsync]

I think putting Budew in S-tier is justifiable, although it is the most suspect of the Pokemon we have in S-tier currently. I think it has plenty going for it (obtained early, 3 flawless IVs if caught as Budew, it's a good sweeper, etc.). I don't think having to delay evolution for Petal Dance is that big of a deal. My team of 6 was around the level 32-34 range when I got the Shiny Stone (without Exp. Share by the way) which is only a few levels short of Petal Dance. It's not like Roselia is a complete deadweight in the meantime; it can hold Eviolite and it can still use Toxic Spikes + Venoshock and Giga Drain from base 100 Special Attack. It certainly isn't as bad as, say, delaying Floette's evolution to get Moonblast (not worth it by the way). I think its lack of physical bulk is a problem though, and its match-ups actually don't look that amazing on paper (not dead-weight, but how many gyms/elite 4 members can it man-handle on its own?).

Having said all that, I'm not sure how I feel about the reasoning behind putting it in S-tier in the first place. I don't think anyone did a proper write-up on it, but reading the posts about where Budew should be tiered, the impression I get is that Bulbasaur was S-tier, and Budew was seen to be as good as/better than Bulbasaur, so Budew was put in be S-tier too. Bulbasaur has dropped to A-tier since then, and I'm curious as to whether Budew would have even been put in S-tier had Bulbasaur been in A-tier (or untiered) when Budew was tiered.

 

[Mulan15262]

Why is Larvitar put as X exclusive and Aron Y exclusive? Larvitar is exclusive to Y, and Aron exclusive to X.

 

[vilelab]

Ok here is some input on a few pokemon I used

Horsea-can be found right after you get the good rod and pretty easy to find. If you can trade, Kingdra becomes a beast. Although the dragon scale is found at the end of the game by terminus cave, I got a dragon scale much earlier by using a compound eyes vivillion and thief combo. This way you can get a dragon scale after running into a few horsea. with trade available I say B tier. Don't bother if you can't trade

I also used a cloyster on a separate run-through because I always use lapras in different games. This thing wrecked pretty much everything with its skill link ability. Once it was taught shell smash through move relearner not many pokemon stood a chance. However, it struggled against special attacks. At that I vote B tier

 

[Serious_Business]

I don't think I've seen any feedback on Espeon.

So obviously, Espeon's biggest problem is being a happiness based evolution. The lowest level Eevee you can catch is 19, and Espeon learns Psybeam at 20. It is easy to evolve Espeon in one level, the problem is that it takes time. Somewhere around 20-30 minutes of biking around, plus a massage. This can be accelerated slightly by messing around with the punching bag in Super Training and fishing for Befriending Bags. Alternatively, you can watch TV or an episode of anime or whatever while doing the biking.

Once you get past that hurdle though, you're working with STAB Psybeam off Espeon's 130 base SpA and 110 speed, before even the second gym. There is a Mind Plate lying in the general area where you can find Eevee, which is a very nice bonus. While Espeon's coverage is limited to Swift for a while, it can get by pretty well. The only team it really wants something besides Psybeam for a while is when fighting Flare in the power plant. Shortly after that though, it learns the Dazzling Gleam TM, and can almost single-handedly take out Team Flare for the rest of the game. Houndooms remain iffy, and there's a Weavile and Drapion it has issues with, but it compensates by setting up and sweeping Lysandre easily enough.

Besides Flare, it performs decently well against most gyms that I attempted to use him in, brute forcing if necessary with a Calm Mind or two. Mine was able to sweep most of the (Delphox) rival battles. It can solo the Fire and Dragon E4 members as well as the Champion.

So anyway, Espeon's movepool is limited, but it gets what it needs when it needs, comes early, can almost always contribute with at least a strong neutral hit, and often sweeps teams outright (with a boost or two if needed). Was easily my most reliable team member in my last playthrough. While I'd like to give it an A, realistically, it's probably more of a B due to the evolution concerns.

 

[AOPSUser]

You boxed litleo?The thing is kinda like gardevoir except its fire/normal.For me,it was worth the wait(May just because I have an unhealthy amount of patience.)

I've had the patience to do Luvdisc solos in the past. It doesn't really mean anything when you have endless time to grind, but chances are you don't.

Litleo can't take down Viola's Surskit and all the early Flying-types handle Vivillon better. It's stuck with Ember as its only special STAB until lv. 33, when you get...Echoed Voice. Flamethrower comes at lv. 38 as Pyroar. Sure the physical attack is usable but it's hitting like Floette's Fairy Wind when it's using it. While you are supposed to not use him against Grant and Korrina, getting it to lv. 38 before Ramos is a lot of work without EXP. Share (I was at ~40 with EXP. Share at that point). You can hold off evolution one level but lv. 36 is still a bit of work.

Pyroar looks cool though. If you got a male one.

 

[Spenstar]

Talonflame and Charizard notwithstanding, what are some good in-game Pokemon that can learn the move Fly?

 

[Banryu]

Talonflame and Charizard notwithstanding, what are some good in-game Pokemon that can learn the move Fly?

Flygon, Aerodactyl, Golurk, Sigilyph & Noivern for in-battle, Farfetch'd & Skarmory for out-of-battle utility, Ducklett I haven't used but it's probably not too bad, Crobat if you have the patience to raise it (which actually should be pretty good since friendship is so easy to raise in this game), and then standard birds like Pidgey/Wingull/Taillow/Starly. And then there are things like Bagon and Dratini that evolve way late if you happen to have raised them.

 

[Lucchini]

Is Aerodactyl the best Pokemon to train for somebody who wants to win every sky battle out there? Charizard did decently on my first run but lost occasionally, while Vivillion had a type disadvantage against just about anything and Sleep Powder wouldn't keep the opposition asleep for long enough to sweep with Quiver Dance (which wasn't even around until the very endgame).

 

[Banryu]

Is Aerodactyl the best Pokemon to train for somebody who wants to win every sky battle out there? Charizard did decently on my first run but lost occasionally, while Vivillion had a type disadvantage against just about anything and Sleep Powder wouldn't keep the opposition asleep for long enough to sweep with Quiver Dance (which wasn't even around until the very endgame).

Vibrava/Flygon did pretty well for me. It's unavailable for like the first 5 Sky Battles (so in that regard I guess Aerodactyl is rather superior), but it comes ready to go with Rock Slide as a Trapinch and that handy Electric immunity for dealing with Emolga. The only matchup it really has to worry about dying in is the trainer with Cryogonal.

 

[Lucchini]

Isn't it OHKOing Cryogonal? Other trainers' Vibrava could be a problem though.