Pokemon Black and White In-Game Tier List Discussion (MkII)

[Merritt]

On a different note, I doubt that's what Merritt was saying about availability... I took it as: if you're using a Pokemon, don't consider "what could have been instead."

Should the two versions of Sawk/Throh really be combined? Availability does have an incidence on efficiency. Something you have to hunt for a while to catch makes you lose a lot of time, compared to something more widely available. For example, that's one of the reasons Cryogonal is so low in this tier list. Its stats and moves are decent enough, but a 1% spawn rate (5% in Winter) with a catch rate of 25? Nopetty nope.

IMHO, 10% in any patch of grass in that area vs 5% in rustling grass patches only, is a pretty big difference.

Pretty much. What I was saying is in regards to opportunity cost, not difficulty in obtaining. That should definitely play a role.

The extreme example is of course Feebas, who in games like RSE and DPP should definitely be marked down for its horrific obtainability.

However, just because a Pokemon is more common in one game than another does not necessarily mean they should be split between the two as their efficiency (even considering the easier/harder time to find it in one version) may be similar enough to be in the same tier.

 

[Turdterra]

So in a recent test (Drumsticks was curious if it was possible), Fraxure is capable of sweeping Brycen, however cards have to played right and it has to line up. I did 5 resets. This is on a different cart than my Simisear one. It's an old playthrough I left dead and finishing up.

Fraxure: 41 (Going in), 42 (at Brycen), 43(Post Brycen) Dragon Dance/Dragon Claw/Slash/False Swipe, Mold Breaker

1st Test: Went for DD and he went for Acid Armor. Was enough to 2HKO. Landed a Dragon Claw on Beartic which was enough to land it in low Yellow. Fell to Icicle Crash

2nd Test: Went for 2 DD as I already knew that even If I got lucky against Vanillish and Beartic, it was up for debate if I would outspeed Gonal. Vanillish went to +6 Def with Acid Armor. Unable to KO reliably.

3rd Test: Went again for 2 DD trying to see if I could get Vanillish to use Frost Breath after 1 Acid Armor. Didn't happen and the same as above happened.

4th Test: This time I did a 2 DD and a heal. Bad Idea as this time Vanillish DID do 1 Acid Armor and a Frost Breath. Stuck in a loop of healing and taking Frost Breath.

5th Test: Went for 3 DD and Vanillish went for 3 Acid Armors. Still became a 2HKO (and it does avoid Hyper Potion range as well. Drops it a little over half, but enough to 2HKO). The rest fell to 1 Dragon Claw.

Now I know I could have used Rock Slide, however that does have a chance to whiff, which knowing my luck it will. Just thought this could be mentioned. I'll have Gyms 5 and 6 posted tomorrow on the Simisear run.

 

[Magnus0]

I have been getting quite effecient at playing through the game quickly. I´ve started another playthrough, this time starting with Tepig. I´m also (unironically) testing Patrat, Petillil, Trubbish and I plan to pick up a Joltik soon.

Here are the matchups up to Elesa.

Cress
- Tepig really struggled here. Lilipup outsped and outdamaged Tepig, so it straight up lost. Panpour was a no-go obviously. Maybe it struggled so much because I gave early exp to Patrat, but with more levels Tepig would be still lose hard to Panpour.
- Patrat can make something work with bide, but this is inconsistant because both Lilipup and Panpour can set up work up on you. Other than that, Patrat can't do much. poor matchup.

Lenora
- Pignite was really not as reliable as I would have liked. First of all, you NEED a death fodder pokemon to take intimdate or Pignite won't be able to do enough damage. Herdier outspeeds and puts heavy damage on Pignite with take down. You can use flame charge to outspeed on turn two, but then arm thrust still has a chance to not KO Herdier even after flame charge damage. The same thing is true for Watchog. You can flame charge into arm thrust, but if you get bad rolls on arm thrust you're screwed. Pretty average matchup honestly.
- Patrat put Herdier to sleep, got two chrunches off and then died. I didn't bother evolving it because that requires a bit of grinding, though it is plausible. Watchog could probably deal with either Herdier or Watchog, but it has to rely on hypnosis hitting.

Burgh
- Pignite wins by spamming flame charge. Simple as that
- Watchog can sweep by putting whirlipede to sleep and then setting up work up. Dwebble survives a crunch but uses sand-attack which does nothing because keen eye. Watchog did something right, yay.
- petilil beats dwebble but is useless otherwise.

Elesa
- Pignite is pretty bad here. Everything outspeeds it and puts heavy damage on it with aerial ace or volt switch. You can maybe make something work with flame charge into rollout, but that's very unreliable. I haven't tested rock tomb, but I doubt it would make the matchup much better for Pignite.
- Watchog does alright-ish. You can try your luck with hypnosis and confuse ray. You can do good damage with death fodder + retaliate. Once the Emolga's are gone, you can put good damage on Zebstrika with dig. It's a neutral matchup basically.
- Liligant actually does really well here. Her giga drain deals a lot of damage even to the emolga's and you have sleep powder to stop the volt switch spam. It's bulky enough to take two aerial aces, and with giga drain healing possibly even more. I didn't even have quiver dance yet, but Liligant still did great.
- Trubbish can take multiple volt switches, especially after a couple of stockpiles. It then spams sludge. If you can avoid crits, you can probably even tank through Elesa's whole team with some item support (or black sludge).

 

[Stellar]

Are those defensive comments for gyms 3/4 with Eviolite or without?

 

[Magnus0]

Are those defensive comments for gyms 3/4 with Eviolite or without?

For gym three, eviolite didn't matter. Pignite didn't need it, Watchog couldn't use it, and Petillil really can't break through Whirlipede and Leavanny anyway.

For gym four I put eviolite on Pignite. It still took a lot of damage from aerial ace. Maybe it's the fact that it has a lonely (- def) nature, but I doubt that that has a big influence on the matchup. Watchog and Lilligant couldn't use eviolite of course. I was lucky enough to get a black sludge on my Trubbish, so I used that instead of eviolite. With stockpile, it took volt switch spam very well even without eviolite, but I should mention that my Trubbish has max special def IV's. It did quite well until it got critted before I could heal.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

At Driftveil Gym at the moment: Servine, Simipour, Throh, Solosis, Emolga, and Vanillite.

Burgh went much the same for both Throh and Servine: You will likely kill a mon but will be revenged. Servine can likely take Dwebble (mine soloed Whirlipede but barely and it's inconsistent), as can Throh. Both can take Whirlipede but it'll take a while and it's not efficient. Leavanny will likely need backup. Simipour can muscle through Whirlipede and Dwebble, but likely can't take Leavanny (even if you burn it with Scald, Razor Leaf has a high crit chance).

Rivals:
All three mons can clean sweep Bianca with Growth/Work Up.
Cheren is a bit more iffy. Servine can likely take Pidove and Pignite but likely falls upon beating Pignite. I'd bet it can beat Pansage and Liepard too, though not combined with the other two members.
I think both Throh and Simipour laughs at Cheren with Work Up IIRC, though I can go back and test this if needed.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Solosis is...weird. If you catch one at 24 or lower, you have Hidden Power but lack Psyshock (at 25). I caught a Naive level 25 one, but since Hidden Power is random power (in this gen) and type I'm not really considering it as good coverage. It also has some issues missing OHKOs of foes near equal level, and it will get outsped by stuff even like the unevolved monkeys. Eviolite is superior to Quick Claw on this thing, but the item choice variability can be decent. Hits pretty hard and will likely OHKO underleveled things with Psyshock.

At level 25, Solosis starts with Light Screen, Charm, Recover, and Psyshock. Pretty good moveset, and you can TM Reflect/Thunder Wave/ Light Screen if you delete it whenever, but it falls apart when you realize A) Screens/Charm are impractical for mooks B) It's slow so it can't get these buffs off without Thunder Wave support, also impractical for mooks C) Thunder Wave is pretty meh when Clay is immune and Elesa can Volt Switch to Zebstrika, though it helps vs. Emolga. Most of the time you'll just want to hit with Psyshock, and unlike Gothita, Solosis doesn't get Grass Knot (though it does get Energy Ball...what?)

Chose Emolga for my fifth team member, Gentle nature. Took like 10 minutes to find one. Wasn't spectacular against Desert Resort mooks (likely due to low level) but Charge helped and it picks up once it gets Electro Ball to abuse with Thunder Wave and Static.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Anyway, Elesa. Emolga can actually handle the Emolga mirror match fine by OHKOing with Thunder Wave + Electro Ball. Sadly, you aren't sweeping Zebstrika because LightningRod, but a pretty good neutral matchup. Charge + Spark barely misses OHKOs on Elesa's Emolga.

Throh can 2HKO Emolga with Rock Tomb, and solo without boosting or healing, but you need a lot of luck. You OHKO Zebstrika with Revenge.

Solosis can 2HKO all of Elesa with Psyshock, and sustain itself with screens/Recover/Thunder Wave fine. Since I know Recover isn't being considered for tiering, items can be used as a substitute. I still think Recover is a fine move on the mon as it allows it to sustain itself on routes and it has the slots for it. Anyway, a sweep isn't really feasible due to the guessing game of "Will they use Volt Switch or a physical move?" deterring the screen strategy. Still though, Solosis is good here with Eviolite.

Servine...no, just no. You tank everything with Eviolite but you do no damage to make it worth it. Return isn't useful against Emolga because of Static. Leaf Tornado is like a 4 or 5HKO (rofl) on Zebstrika. Don't even try.

Simipour: You can take a hit, Work Up, and then OHKO both Emolga. Zebstrika outspeeds and finishes you off.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Cheren goes pretty well for Emolga. While you can't exactly sweep without healing (thanks to 2HKO on Pansage) Thunder Wave Electro Ball powers through almost everything. Solosis sweeps everything but Liepard here. I feel that I didn't really need to test the others here because they'd likely go the same way last time did. Made a save state here just in case I need to.

Vanillite is pretty bulky with Eviolite, caught a Bold one. You will want to catch a level 25 one because the level 26 one lacks Icy Wind. It's roughly 3HKOing everything and can even take on the Timburr inside Cold Storage decently. Not the best start, but not horrible either.

Will update run as it goes along. Have roughly level 30s all around.

Eviolite Vanillite actually can solo Clay with Acid Armor at level 31. You might have to go grind one extra level on Route 6 (took down the mooks before Clay), but if you do, you get a great way to win. Sure, Swagger can suck a little, but it boosts the power of Avalanche (at +4 even my Bold one takes off a third of Excadrill's health with a boosted Avalache). Rock Slide struggles to break you at +6, but assuming you don't get flinched you gradually win. You only need like...2, maybe 3 items to do this. Just hope you don't get critted by Excadril and it is doable.

Solosis can easily 2HKO Palpitoad, can't contribute otherwise besides Reflect.

Throh wins pretty handily thanks to Swagger. Even without it, the enemies can't really touch you anyway.

Simipour can win fairly easily. Mine missed a roll on Drill and died to crit Bulldoze. Normal Bulldoze 2HKOs. Still good though, one of the best answers to Excadrill across Waters overall due to Speed. You can Work Up once and sweep through.

Servine is actually not super good against Clay. I couldn't even OHKO Krokorok with Leaf Tornado without boosts (came close). Excadrill laughs at you and takes +1 Growth Leaf Tornado easily. And you can't really set up reliably because of Swagger (which Vanillite can because of the Defense buff). You can beat all but Excadrill, but Drill is unlikely because you will likely have to get through confusion and Rock Slide flinches. Torment also screws you over because you can't spam Leaf Tornado.

As it is right now, I can easily see the Snivy line dropping to C, because we all know how the next three gyms will go (beating Skyla isn't an accomplishment) and the midgame has been a travesty in general. Leaf Tornado falls off so fast it's insane. As much as I'd love to believe the Snivy line has untapped potential, I can't see it right now. Servine literally has the offenses of an Audino (60/60) and it is just ewww. Because almost anything can boost with Work Up, it makes the niche of Growth moot. As for Coil, 3 Fighting types get the comparable Bulk Up, a few respectable team members get Swords Dance...I just can't really see how this thing has a niche, like, at all.

On its own merits, it just falls flat because of major battles. Because most of the other Grasses are in the same boat regarding major battles, I think comparisons are apt. Every single thing it can do is done as good or better by another Grass. Lilligant makes a better set-up sweeper. Whimsicott makes a better whittler with Leech Seed and Cotton Guard is a million times better than Coil. Sawsbuck and Leavanny make better attackers with dual STAB and coverage, with the latter getting Swords Dance. Ferrothorn has better stats (Serperior has 1 point of HP higher, while its defenses are mediocre compared to 131/116 of Ferrothorn) and a better type for tanking. Maractus, while terrible, has the nice combo of Chlorophyll and SunnyBeam. Simisage has better coverage. I think most Grasses other than Sawsbuck or Lilligant should be grouped in C or lower. Most of these don't need TMS like Serperior does to actually do anything. While Snivy comes before everything else, it doesn't matter when earlygame is nothing to really write home about.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Onto Skyla. All of my mons were 35-36 at this point so Vanillite is certainly evolved.

Vanillish: OHKOs Swoobat and Unfezant. Swanna might need some backup thanks to chip damage you accumulate if no Eviolite. Still doable though

Serperior: Uh, I'm having a hard time seeing how this is even remotely effective. You need like five Coils to OHKO anything and all it takes is like 20 damage and then a crit to kill you. You can do it, especially if you heal, but why would you want to?

Emolga: GG no repeat.

Duosion: Seeing as I 2HKOed Swanna I assume you can do the same for Unfezant. Swoobat you 3HKO with resisted Psyshock; just avoid it.

Simipour: 1 boost OHKOs Swoobat and Unfezant with Scald. Two boosts can reliably 2HKO Swanna with Shadow Claw.

Throh: Didn't test it as much as the others (I think I did so only once, and my movepool was strapped for slots) but I'd imagine you can kill Unfezant with Revenge and Swoobat with Payback. Even with Bulk Up I think they still hurt a tad. To be fair, Throh's been useful in almost every gym save maybe Burgh so one bench isn't bad. I can retest this if need be.

Discussion Slate: Sawk, Throh, Vanillite, Snivy, Tirtouga

 

[Arcanite]

One thing that has repeatedly come up is the use of Eviolite. It seems to me that a lot of things are justified using Eviolite bulk, when you only really have one user at a time. Does this really treat things that fairly? Does this mean that having one late evolver increases in value so you have something that utilises eviolite until close to the E4 or even through it? Obviously it helps set up sweepers in the midgame set up for major fights, but I'm not sure we're accounting for its presence in the best way.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

One thing that has repeatedly come up is the use of Eviolite. It seems to me that a lot of things are justified using Eviolite bulk, when you only really have one user at a time. Does this really treat things that fairly? Does this mean that having one late evolver increases in value so you have something that utilises eviolite until close to the E4 or even through it? Obviously it helps set up sweepers in the midgame set up for major fights, but I'm not sure we're accounting for its presence in the best way.

This is fair, but I'd argue Eviolite justifies tiering fine. Since major battles are usually dealt with via one or two mons, Eviolite is usually a non-issue about only going on one mon. You can make the same argument for Lucky Egg really.

I mean, yeah, I'd want more than one Eviolite, but not much I can do about it.

Speaking of Eviolite, Duosion is absolutely amazing with it. Tanks everything and nigh OHKOs everything back with Psyshock.

 

[Infernape2018]

Unfourtunatly, my original run file got deleted, so I have to do a new run

Planned team: Oshwatt, Whimsicott, Archeops, Vanniluxe, Reuniculus and possibly Scrafty

Any questions?

 

[Dargad]

Unfourtunatly, my original run file got deleted, so I have to do a new run

Planned team: Oshwatt, Whimsicott, Archeops, Vanniluxe, Reuniculus and possibly Scrafty

Any questions?

Well, it feels like Archen is pretty well documented, so it might not be as useful for the purpose of this list.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

Unfourtunatly, my original run file got deleted, so I have to do a new run

Planned team: Oshwatt, Whimsicott, Archeops, Vanniluxe, Reuniculus and possibly Scrafty

Any questions?

Hmm. Bear in mind I'm not criticizing your team choices when I say this:
Oshawott: Probably doesn't need to be tested. Everyone who's used it agrees it's a solid A.
Whimsicott: Fine choice. I made a post on Cottonee back on page 4, but I have a feeling it'll just be kinda there the whole game. The support movepool is nice, and you could maybe argue for C, but Cotton Guard grind + 77 Sp. Atk is a little iffy (still better and more diverse than Serperior).
I've used it myself. Cotton Guard can be useful endgame, but I'm not sure if the grind is worth it.
Archeops: Everyone knows this is S, likely doesn't need testing. That said, we haven't had any actual in-depth opinions on it either. Maybe test to see if Pidove is C instead?
Vanilluxe: Sure. Mine is a definite C tier right now, see this post just above for why. Maybe you could pick up Vanillish later at Dragonspiral since that skips the Vanillite period. At least two users have argued for C.
Reuniclus: Idk, I think another Munna test might be in order instead. Reuniclus has been argued as a solid B and I can see that myself at the moment. Though I wouldn't be too opposed to another test of Reuniclus.
Scrafty: You can but it's probably gonna stay S because it's busted.

 

[Infernape2018]

Looking back at it, i'm not going to be testing Archen unless Pidove is too much to bear.(LSS, Pidove is being tested)

Without further ado, get ready for an update soon!

Also worth noting is that Reshiram and Zekrom aren't listed in the tier lists. Are they counted as post-game mons or are they still ranked due to coming before Ghetsis?

 

[DrumstickGaming]

Looking back at it, i'm not going to be testing Archen unless Pidove is too much to bear.(LSS, Pidove is being tested)

Without further ado, get ready for an update soon!

Also worth noting is that Reshiram and Zekrom aren't listed in the tier lists. Are they counted as post-game mons or are they still ranked due to coming before Ghetsis?

They are untiered because they come in at the very end. They aren't even great in those battles either.
If there is still time, you could go Tepig as a starter: we've only had one test of it (though I doubt its ranking will change, and I'll be using it next run).
Try as hard as you can not to drop a Pokemon. That said, I'm really close to dropping Serperior right now because it can't do anything.
You can run with Scrafty if you want. We haven't had many opinions on it, but nobody has questioned its ranking either.

I'm honestly wondering if we need to discontinue these lengthy major battle write-ups. I don't see many people responding or liking them (so I don't know if many read them) and I think a general paragraph of the mon's performances would be more accurate.

I want to say I'm still enjoying leading this tier list even though things are slowing down. I know we've had our ups and downs (and I wasn't exactly nice in the beginning) but I think things are panning out.

I want everyone's opinions on Snivy if possible. I will admit I was kinda unfairly theorymonning it before, especially with that whole Tynamo debacle, (sorry Magnus0) but should Snivy be B or C tier? I think C tier is fine. Once it gets Leaf Blade it's okay, but not amazing.

 

[Infernape2018]

H O W C O U L D T H I S H A P P E N T O M E?

 

[Infernape2018]

UPDATE 1(FUCK)

Location: Nacreane: Prior to 2nd Badge

Team: Dewott(17), Pidove(17)

Dewott: Decently strong WG 2HKO's almost all of the trainers i find throught the game. It's been decently strong and a great carrier(unlike that certain monkay)

PIdove: AAUGSUVCUDVUADVUVDUYVDAYDU! SUPER LUCK is a fucking lie because goddam everything has been going wrong ever since I got this things. Crits happen 70% of the time to Pidove while it happens to me 5% of the time, constantly missing Air Cutter and not doding any hit.
One fight with a Munna i got hit by Hypnosis, crit and confusion by Psybeam and hit myself 4 TIMES IN A ROW AND DIED when i just had to hit with QA.

Fucking RnJesus is the worst.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

I want everyone's opinions on Snivy if possible. I will admit I was kinda unfairly theorymonning it before, especially with that whole Tynamo debacle, (sorry Magnus0) but should Snivy be B or C tier? I think C tier is fine. Once it gets Leaf Blade it's okay, but not amazing.

Honestly I’m more inclined to rank Snivy lower now than I was before. I’d argue borderline B/C, although I think I’ve had better gym experiences with it than you’ve had. This doesn’t really have any evidence backing it up, but I feel like Snivy might have more variable performances depending on its IVs than the other starters.

Also I agree about getting more Tepig opinions. It’s been a little while since I’ve used it, but I remember Flame Charge/Heat Crash and Arm Thrust starting to become relatively weak in the mid-game as STAB attacks, despite the line’s excellent offences. That’s obviously not enough to take away its A ranking when it has such solid gym matchups across the board and can supplement its moveset pretty well with coverage TMs anyway, but it’s something to consider.

 

[Magnus0]

They are untiered because they come in at the very end. They aren't even great in those battles either.
If there is still time, you could go Tepig as a starter: we've only had one test of it (though I doubt its ranking will change, and I'll be using it next run).
Try as hard as you can not to drop a Pokemon. That said, I'm really close to dropping Serperior right now because it can't do anything.
You can run with Scrafty if you want. We haven't had many opinions on it, but nobody has questioned its ranking either.

I´m actually using Tepig right now and I´m not too impressed by it. It´s not bad, but it has some severe bulk and speed issues and arm thrust is very weak, especially since there is no servicable replacement until you fully evolve it. Even then, hammer arm has a nasty drawback. Looking at its late game matchups, I fear that it will really struggle. I think it might drop to B, but obviously I can´t say that for certain until I finish the run.

I'm honestly wondering if we need to discontinue these lengthy major battle write-ups. I don't see many people responding or liking them (so I don't know if many read them) and I think a general paragraph of the mon's performances would be more accurate.

Personally, I think match-ups are the most important criteria for judging a pokemon because it brings all other criteria together. If a pokemon has a good typing, good stats or a good movepool, it's more likely to do well in more match-ups. The opposite is true as well. If a pokemon has a trash movepool or trash stats, it's less likely to do well in important fights. And if a pokemon has trash availability, it has less chances to participate in important fights. Match-ups really contain most other criteria.

Detailed gym matchups also act as proof that people aren't theorymonning. Plus the forumers can use it to check on each others claims or point out sub-optimal play.

I fear that with just a small general paragraph about a pokemons performance, this thread will just get filled with a lot of unsupported claims. Just, look at the old thread. There were a lot of short posts just stating a pokemon was either good or bad, with no proof or explanation at all. You could maybe make some rules about post length or structure or whatever, but I don't think there is anything wrong with the detailed posts we are getting in this thread right now. There's not that many pokemon to rank in B/W anyway.

I want to say I'm still enjoying leading this tier list even though things are slowing down. I know we've had our ups and downs (and I wasn't exactly nice in the beginning) but I think things are panning out.

I want everyone's opinions on Snivy if possible. I will admit I was kinda unfairly theorymonning it before, especially with that whole Tynamo debacle, (sorry Magnus0) but should Snivy be B or C tier? I think C tier is fine. Once it gets Leaf Blade it's okay, but not amazing.

Don't worry about the Tynamo thing. I'm not mad or anything in case you thought that, lol.

So about Snivy, it should come to no surprise that I think it's a solid B tier. Snivy is quite interesting because it is so lopsided. It can be both pretty bad because of its bad offenses and coverage, but at the same time it can be amazing once it is all coiled up. It's quite matchup depended really. This lopsidedness also shows in the tier suggestions of the people that used it. There's multiple people that think it is B, and also multiple people that think it's C.

As I said, I think matchups are very important, especially the harder mathups such as the E4. Snivy does pretty well in the later matchups. From Clay and on, it has no straight up bad match-up. The worst is probably Caitlin or Ghetsis, but even then Serperior is not useless. Skyla, Drayden, Marshal, Grimsley and N (black only) can all be set up on, shown by me, Stellar and Texas. Brycen is a Joke and Shauntal is a kinda neutral but still decent. I think these late-game results are enough to put it in B, because there are very few pokemon that can straight out solo some of the hardest fights in the game. Being able to solo a fight is so valuable imo.

Looking at the current C tier, I think it is better than literally EVERYTHING except Karrablast (trade), who still has to rise. I also think it's better than like half of the current B tier, but there are still some pokemon that might drop after some more testing, such as Litwick, Cobalion and Tympole. Also, lol Sewaddle.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I appreciate the major battle commentary, I prefer to give paragraphs because I'm lazy but I think demonstrably showing results is valuable.

Also imo snivy is a clear B. It definitely has warts, no doubt about it, but it's ability to sweep through the hardest matchups at the end of the game is among the best available and having that capacity to me, when so many other mons are fodder to the likes of Marshall or N, is a significant boost to value more than enough to countermand the occasional down period when there's a stretch of unfavorable matchups (this, imo isn't even that big of a deal because it's pretty easy to do what I did and overlevel to Serperior before Skyla and use the period up through Brycen to train your other team members up, and then bring Serp back into the game)

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

Hmm I wonder if I’ve gotten a bit disheartened by Snivy’s not-so-great midgame. I’ll probably return to my original opinion (solid B) once my current playthrough reaches the better matchups.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

I want to say I appreciate the nice responses from everyone. Really appreciate the feedback. Nobody is wrong for wanting it in B tier.

I apologize that I rag on Snivy so much. It's just the midgame is really, really unkind to it, to the point I still had trouble with Clay. In addition, I think that it's pretty mediocre for the final three gyms (Skyla is doable but you need like five boosts, Vanillish will setup alongside you along with super-effective STAB, Drayden has Dragon Tail). A recurring theme in matchups is having to break through confusion hax, which is relevant vs. Clay and Brycen. Healing off status adds to its already iffy item usage.

I think the strong E4 is really good. However, you have to account that N is only really favorable in White, and it's probably not sweeping Ghetsis anytime soon. Bouffalant has Poison Jab. Eelektross has Flamethrower. Bisharp has X-Scissor and Metal Burst. Hydriegon has Fire Blast. Beating Marshall and Grimsley is really nice. But is it still reliant on items there? Even with Grimsley, Scrafty has Posion Jab, Liepard has Aerial Ace, Krookodile lowers your Attack, and Bisharp has X-Scissor.

It's just the Servine stage is so bad (I couldn't OHKO a Mincinno of similar level with Leaf Blade) that I'm just unsure if the decent E4 can make up for it. It has to switch out of mooks when leading often, and only being able to 2HKO things as Serperior is demoralizing. I think my perception is caused because once it gets better as Serperior, it has type disadvanges. And it is entirely plausible that you will not have Leaf Blade at Clay.
Return isn't really amazing coverage either since my Return has been 3HKOing things neutrally. And like I said above, a lot of its niches are done as well by other mons (look at Its_A_Random's opinion of Ferrothorn, which is comparable because Curse buffs Attack and Defense like Coil). Both Deerling and Ferroseed take off roughly around the same time too, and are B tier despite missing half of the game.

As I said, I think matchups are very important, especially the harder mathups such as the E4. Snivy does pretty well in the later matchups. From Clay and on, it has no straight up bad match-up."

I can't see how Brycen is favorable. You have to crit Vanillish to sweep him because of Acid Armor. This is risky because Vanillish 2HKOs. Beartic lives a +2 Leaf Blade and uses Swagger. I mean you can setup, but in my opinion I shouldn't have to setup to +6 to sweep a team. Look at Simipour. With just two Work Ups, it can sweep anything. With one Swords Dance Excadrill can sweep anything. If I have to setup to more than +2 I wouldn't exactly call that efficient. A reminder that you have to go about 6 turns without a crit happening per matchup (1/16 chance of 6.25% * 6 turns = 6/16 = 3/8 chance of happening, which is not unlikely).

Even if you muscle past Brycen, how does Serperior beat Drayden? Dragon Tail laughs at your boosts. I can't even see how this is remotely favorable; even with Skyla you can kinda set-up on Swoobat.

Look back at your experiences for proof.

Brycen was really easy. The mvp in this gym was Audino actually. Fire blast OHKO'd vannilish. It outsped and did over half to Beartic, but sadly it got bad luck with swagger hax. With a persim berry, it would have soloed the fight. Mienfoo cleaned up the rest of Brycens team with jump kick. The same thing happened against Drayden. I was kinda scared of him, because I had no real counter to dragon types. However, I did have my trusty Audino, who has an answer to every pokemon in the game with its customizable movepool. Fraxure used dragon dance and then got OHKO´d by blizzard. Druddigon lived one blizzard and then used... chip away?! which did nothing to Audino. I use return as it gets healed, use an ether on blizzard and finish Druddigon next turn. Haxorus also tried setting up dragon dance, as I missed the first blizzard. The second blizzard hit though, but Haxorus was at +2 attack and speed already and I didn't bother reviving any of my other team members who were all dead from the gym trainers. Things looked dire for poor Audino, but then Drayden decided to use his 3000 IQ strat of dragon dance + dragon tail. Audino outsped because of dragon tails negative priority, and it finished Haxorus with a final blizzard. You know you are doing something wrong as a gym leader if a random Audino of all things beats your ass.

I didn't see a snake in either one of those matchups. If those aren't bad matchups why didn't you use it?

Servine also struggles with mooks like many users have indicated. Low accuracy on the line's best move until Leaf Blade isn't great.

On the other hand, a lot of the mons in C tier evolve late or are unremarkable, so maybe that is worse than Servine's dead period.

Is it better than most of C tier? Probably. A lot of mons there have a meh midgame too.

I'm going to try to record endgame. If I can sweep with Snivy in just 2 attempts per Grimsley, Marshall and N, I will consider it for B tier. I will post the videos here if possible.

I guess the big question is: How heavily does mook performace influence your opinions? I think that might be the deciding factor in keeping it in B, but with 60/60 offenses as Servine...

Honestly this sort of makes me want to make a tier between B and C. A lot of mons can fit there: Snivy, Sesmitoad, Mincinno, Tirtouga, Dwebble...

 

[Magnus0]

I want to say I appreciate the nice responses from everyone. Really appreciate the feedback.

I apologize that I rag on Snivy so much. It's just the midgame is really, really unkind to it, to the point I still had trouble with Clay. In addition, I think that it's pretty mediocre for the final three gyms (Skyla is doable but you need like five boosts, Vanillish will setup alongside you along with super-effective STAB, Drayden has Dragon Tail).

I think the strong E4 is really good. However, you have to account that N is only really favorable in White, and it's probably not sweeping Ghetsis anytime soon. Beating Marshall and Grimsley is really nice. But is it still reliant on items there? Even with Grimsley, Scrafty has Posion Jab, Liepard has Aerial Ace, Krookodile lowers your Attack, and Bisharp has X-Scissor.

It's just the Servine stage is so bad (I couldn't OHKO a Mincinno of similar level with Leaf Blade) that I'm just unsure if the decent E4 can make up for it. It has to switch out of mooks when leading often, and only being able to 2HKO things as Serperior is demoralizing. I think my perception is caused because once it gets better as Serperior, it has type disadvanges. And it is entirely plausible that you will not have Leaf Blade at Clay.
Return isn't really amazing coverage either since my Return has been 3HKOing things neutrally. And like I said above, a lot of its niches are done as well by other mons (look at Its_A_Random's opinion of Ferrothorn, which is comparable because Curse buffs Attack and Defense like Coil). Both Deerling and Ferroseed take off roughly around the same time too, and are B tier despite missing half of the game.

Is it better than most of C tier? Probably. A lot of mons there have a meh midgame too.

I guess the big question is: How heavily does mook performace influence your opinions? I think that might be the deciding factor in keeping it in B, but with 60/60 offenses as Servine...

I kinda get a feeling that you have a seriously shitty IV Snivy. Like, my not particularly high special attack (I checked) IV Servine OHKO'd Krokorok and Palpitoed reliably, even without miracle seed. I got leaf blade during the fight, which was a 3 hit KO on Excadrill with a little help from leech seed damage. My Serpior needed just three boosts for Skyla, not five.

It doesn't need items for Marshall because leech seed heals back a ton of HP with big root. It might need a full restore for Grimsley, especially if you get poisoned by poison jab. Speaking of poison jab, it's a non-STAB move of only decent power coming from a pokemon with a modest 90 attack stat. Serperior has more than enough bulk to survive multiple jabs after a coil or two. Lol at aerial ace. Serperior can take like three unboosted. Intimdate doesn't matter if Krook can't do any damage back, and it still likely falls in one hit because you should have more than one boost. You can even just boost back up on Krook itself because what is he gonna do?

Just a tip. I found that putting scope lens on Serperior helped its random trainer performance a lot. It gives leaf blade a 1 in 4 chance to crit iirc. Over the course of many battles, this will severly improve its effeciency against mooks.

And now to answer your question. I don't think mook performance is as important as major battles. Most mooks are severly underleveled, especially team plasma grunts.

In the case of Snivy in particular, I don't get how it was so extraordinarily bad for you. Mine two-shot almost any non-steel or Litwick line with STAB or return thanks to the level difference. There's lots of unevolved pokemon that have around 60 base offensive stats, like Deerling, yet Deerling can be in B without problem. It seems mook performance does not heavily influence your opinion on Deerling. Servine is also fast enough to outspeed the entire game so it rarely has to take more than one hit when it fails a OHKO. this, unlike a pokemon like Pignite who gets outsped a lot and still fails to get OHKO's most of the time, which means that it often has to take two hits when its bulk is already not great.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

I kinda get a feeling that you have a seriously shitty IV Snivy. Like, my not particularly high special attack (I checked) IV Servine OHKO'd Krokorok and Palpitoed reliably, even without miracle seed. I got leaf blade during the fight, which was a 3 hit KO on Excadrill with a little help from leech seed damage. My Serpior needed just three boosts for Skyla, not five.

It doesn't need items for Marshall because leech seed heals back a ton of HP with big root. It might need a full restore for Grimsley, especially if you get poisoned by poison jab. Speaking of poison jab, it's a non-STAB move of only decent power coming from a pokemon with a modest 90 attack stat. Serperior has more than enough bulk to survive multiple jabs after a coil or two. Lol at aerial ace. Serperior can take like three unboosted. Intimdate doesn't matter if Krook can't do any damage back, and it still likely falls in one hit because you should have more than one boost. You can even just boost back up on Krook itself because what is he gonna do?

Just a tip. I found that putting scope lens on Serperior helped its random trainer performance a lot. It gives leaf blade a 1 in 4 chance to crit iirc. Over the course of many battles, this will severly improve its effeciency against mooks.

And now to answer your question. I don't think mook performance is as important as major battles. Most mooks are severly underleveled, especially team plasma grunts.

In the case of Snivy in particular, I don't get how it was so extraordinarily bad for you. Mine two-shot almost any non-steel or Litwick line with STAB or return thanks to the level difference. There's lots of unevolved pokemon that have around 60 base offensive stats, like Deerling, yet Deerling can be in B without problem. It seems mook performance does not heavily influence your opinion on Deerling. Servine is also fast enough to outspeed the entire game so it rarely has to take more than one hit when it fails a OHKO. this, unlike a pokemon like Pignite who gets outsped a lot and still fails to get OHKO's most of the time, which means that it often has to take two hits when its bulk is already not great.

I can't calculate my IVs atm because earliest save state was at Lenora. My Servine was 30 compared to your likely 31 on Clay, that might've made the difference.

I think that while I may be a bit stubborn on Snivy, I still think this is promoting good discussion. I think it's one of only like two mons that just isn't clear-cut (the other being Sesmitoad).

What about Brycen and Drayden/Iris? (mine is 40 at Brycen)

Speaking of Opelucid Gym, Vanillish is kinda iffy there too. Mine entered at level 42. Without Eviolite, Fraxure does 3/4 of your HP with Dragon Claw, but they can Taunt or DD. Sometimes you can OHKO the Druddigon, sometimes not; though if they select Revenge you are OHKOed. Drayden was pretty funny (I was at level 45). I set up Acid Armor on Fraxure for some reason (maybe cuz of DD). Ice Beam OHKO. Ice Beam barely missed Druddigon kill. I think Revenge knocked me to around half. After a bit of healing by Iris, I killed it. I failed to OHKO Haxorus, but in a hilarious twist of fate, Dragon Tail missed and I won. I'd imagine with NeverMeltIce this goes more smoothly. Not gonna test with the others because they are all kinda neutral. Couple of wild mons later i got Vanilluxe.

At the League. Everyone is level 48. I grinded a little at the stadiums. I wanted to have everyone be at least 48 for reasonable E4 matchups accounting for EXP in different playthroughs.

I guess I might as well post final impressions because everything will be matchups from here on.

Vanilluxe-hasn't been used a ton because other members need exp, but solid. Probably C, though the guy who said D did have some good reasoning about where it falters. I'll say C, and it definitely has some E4 targets.

Emolga-Reasonably solid. Detouring for Tbolt is well worth it (took like 3 min on my emulator with speed-up toggle, and you don't have to fight any trainers). Acrobatics is cool but discourages giving it an item which is fairly annoying. Still though, it 2HKOs pretty well, Static is useful, and it's better than most other Electrics. C.

Serperior-We'll see what happens. You already know my opinions on this mon. It did actually come in handy in Victory Road in a tight spot when most of my team was down against the monkey trainer.

Throh-Great the whole way through, even if mine ran Fighting/Normal moves the whole game (Strength/Bulk Up, Revenge, and Storm Throw/Brick Break). You could make a case for A really. One of the best tanks you can get, though some matchups (Burgh, Skyla, to an extent Elesa despite the solo) could maybe knock it down to B, also because it goes last a ton. Still, very dependable!

Reuniclus-This mon might have trouble getting off the ground if it doesn't hog the Eviolite. Still, it's not the worst out of the gate. Once it gets to Eviolite Duosion or just Reuniclus, it is amazing. Seriously. You get one of the bulkiest tanks it the game and you come close to or outright OHKO neutral targets with Psychic or Psyshock. Slowness indeed doesn't matter when you live everything. You could maybe make a case for A, though B might be more appropriate. I think it's maybe better than Sigilyph even, if not equal.

Simipour: This mon is a monster. One Work Up or two is all you need. Coverage is pretty auxiliary, though Shadow Claw and Acrobatics can help at times. A tier.

Overall I loved this team!

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

GUYS GUYS GUYS GUYS

I TAKE IT BACK

SERPERIOR IS B

IT SWEPT THE E4. ALL FOUR OF THEM. ALONE.

Caitlin and Shauntal are the hardest to sweep, though Caitlin is actually easier than Shauntal.

Despite sweeping the E4, I don't see it higher than B because of the aforementioned problems, and it's closest contemporary for sweeping the E4 (Haxorus) is similar and also in B.

Link to the 38 minute video. Timestamps are in the description. Pardon the watermark and speed-up toggle.

Moved Emolga to C, Solosis to B, Panpour and Throh up to A, Emolga up to C. Also moved Karrablast (trade) and Roggenrola (trade) up to B due to past comments. If you disagree with these changes, let me know. I will be doing the E4 with the other members as well, though I don't think they will change their rankings from where they are.

Discussion Slate: Above mons-do you agree with the rankings?

 

[Infernape2018]

Congratulaions on Serperior finally having a set ranking!

On that note UPDATE 2(lucy lucking)

Post LEnora

Lenora: Dewott at Lvl 19 2HKO's Herider with Razor Shell after intimidate holy shite. Sent in Pidove to eat Retaliate while i heal and then 2HKO Watchog with Razor Shell's defense drop.

Team:

Dewott: Holy jeezus is Razor Shell strong!!!! I find that it 2-3HKO'S EVERYTHING that doesn't resist it, and even resists will hate the defense drops it gets. Rock Smash is a nice coverage move, albeit weak and will be replaced by Grass Knot or Return later. Definetly A Tier, and has the best earlygame of all mons available at the time.

Pidove: All jokes aside, yeah this mon sucks with no good physical attacks barring lol Quick Attack. Needs Return and Fly to do ANYTHING AT ALL. C Tier, unless the endgame it becomes a killer

Cotonne: Cute, great nature and Prankster. Can't wait to see how it goes

also tl;dr bold wouldn't turn off for pidove and coton so ignore the bold there!?

 

[Turdterra]

I'm keeping this one short. This will also have my tiering thoughts for right now. So only 1 gym. I'll do an update consisting of the last 3. Clay was by far my worst matchup. No one could get an OHKO unless it went perfectly right and they used the correct order of the moves.

Tales of the Horrible Pansear (But with Excellent Friends) Chapter 3
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Gym 5: Simisear (30 -> 31) Grass Knot/Work Up/Yawn/Flame Burst @ Charcoal
Simisear flat out cannot sweep unless its gets Tormented first turn by Krok. At a +1 you can sweep everything, but many resets had to happen for this to occur. It almost made me want to drop it entirely, but I got though it. I will add here that at 31, Simisear's Flare Burst with Charcoal cannot OHKO Krok. (I'm running 31 IVs in Special Attack.) A unboosted Grass Knot does less damage to Krok as well. Palpitoad can easily take a unboosted Grass Knot as well. Swagger ends my sweep. Bulldoze ends my sweep with Sear. Needless to say, Clay laughs at it unless I get that Work Up.

Dweeble (29) Bug Bite/Rock Tomb/Dig/Rock Polish
Tried to sweep with it. Didn't pan out. I have an attack reducing nature which is rearing its head currently. Krok easily took a Bug Bite. Palp laughs at poor Dweeble, and Excadrill is LOLNope. I tested about 5-6 times with varying results. At +2 Attack from Swagger and succesfully attacking, Bug Bite OHKOs Krok. Palp came out and pretty much nuked me with Muddy Water (I had Sturdy but twice did I hit myself ending the sweep). I never got to Drill because Krok would either use Bulldoze, Torment, or Swagger. I guess you could say that if I got lucky with the confusion checks, I could have gotten rid of Krok and Palp. Healed up on Drill and Dig for the win. But debatable.

Maractus (29) Solarbeam/Giga Drain/Cotton Spore/Synthesis @ Big Root/Miracle Seed
I had such high hopes for you. Maractus can easily OHKO Krok and Palp. However, it is somewhat walled by Drill. I did a bunch of tests with this. Both with Big Root and Miracle Seed. First 3-4 were with Big Root. If Krok Tormented me, he sealed me pretty good. It was dependant on what I selected really. (Krok outsped me all the time). If I went Solarbeam, great. Now I am tormented and swaggered. If I went Giga, then I was forced to use Beam on Drill (which is not bad mind you). But I take pretty big damage from his hits. Beam with Big Root did roughly half and Beam with Seed dropped him to low yellow/high red. (Basically Hyper Potion range). There were too many factors for a sweep to be successful. I would be flinched, get crit by Slash, or just have loss of speed from the weird Bulldoze cherry tap.

Tirtouga (29) Aqua Jet/Crunch/Rock Tomb/Bulldoze @ Eviolite (I was strapped for moves. LOL Ancient Power and Wide Guard)
Tirtouga was actually my first sweep in under 5 tests. Though once again, Luck was a major factor. I would need to be Swaggered, roll through confusion checks, and we were off to the races. +2 Aqua Jet decimated Krok. +2 Crunch 2HKOs Palp (and yes I did get the Muddy Water debuff), and +2 Aqua Jet 2HKOs Drill (which ended up becoming a lock for Clay, he would heal and I would drop him back into Hyper Potion range).

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So all in all, Clay was tough. I had to put down my system in fear of me throwing it out of pure frustration. There was probably something better I could have down with my team moves and whatnot, but nothing at the time came to mind. My levels were more or less the same going in (Maractus going in at 26 and arriving at Clay at 29).

Initial Thoughts (Subject to Change)

Simisear: So far, it's not really a standout. Currently the remainder of my team sans Maractus, cast a very large shadow of Sear. I am hoping that Fire Blast may put it on equal footing but I doubt that. The fact that I MUST buff +1 to kill anything remotely my level or evolved is unfortunate. But according to DrumstickGaming his SImipour with Mystic Water and Scald failed to OHKO Krok. But I chalked that up to a range after what he told me. Curretnly Sear is rated at B. I am thinking it should drop to C. My reasoning is due to it's early issues. Incinerate is ungodly weak and Work Up buffs don't do much for the damage output. Sure Sear gets a nice diverse movepool. You could argue that Availability and its stats as Sear could make it B Tier, but no. The effort so far I have put into it is not really returning its due. I'm failing OHKOs that I KNOW i can get is I had an 80 BP move. We will see in the future if it stays in worthy to stay in B or drop to C.

Maractus: My intital thoughts were to use a nice Sunny Beam combo to also help Sear out in some ways. Game gave me Water Absorb and no Chlorophyll. Water types aren't really in the game so the ability it pretty much useless. Almost all other Grass Types get Leech Seed naturally (I don't think Petilil line gets it naturally) and as a result of this, hurts Maractus more than you think. If I had that and Big Root, I could spam Solarbeam while having passive recovery (of course the resetting of the seeds too). Looking at its movepool, it has major issues as well. Mostly grass across the board which isn't great, but it does have access to Poison Jab and Toxic. Some utility there I guess. Maractus thus far has failed to impress me. As such, D Tier is a fine home for it. I know leonard (from big bang theory) is planning on testing it too. I'm looking foward to your review of it. Maybe you could find a way to use it better than I could?

Tirtouga: This has actually surprised me. Solid Rock and Eviolite is pretty friggin good. Crunch and Aqua Jet upon availability is pretty nice. The other two moves not so much (which can immediately be remedied with Bulldoze and Rock Tomb. Redundant yes, but I didn't have anything better). While yes it has a Backtrack involved, it's not TOO terrible. I had it worse though as I avoided pretty much every trainer fight so I could train Dweeble, Maractus, and Tirtouga so it took me a bit longer to get to Nacrene. I haven't used it extensively yet, but I am planning on using Curse + Sollid Rock. Excited to see how much power I can hit for. Currently sitting in C Tier, but could see it functioning in B (we will see Post Skyla)

Dweeble: Unforunately, my Dweeble has Bold and has failed to kill things with Super Effective hits when I know if I had a neutral nature it would have OHKO or 2HKO. I haven't had a need to use Rock Polish yet, but I may in Skyla. I can't really say much about it as it has had limited usage in Gyms. As I stated, it could handle Elesa well, but Zeb may have beaten it. Stellar nommed it for B Tier. I could see it there as well. I can already see how it would unfold at Skyla and at Crustle it should be able to hands down sweep after a Polish.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

Congratulaions on Serperior finally having a set ranking!

On that note UPDATE 2(lucy lucking)

Post LEnora

Lenora: Dewott at Lvl 19 2HKO's Herider with Razor Shell after intimidate holy shite. Sent in Pidove to eat Retaliate while i heal and then 2HKO Watchog with Razor Shell's defense drop.

Team:

Dewott: Holy jeezus is Razor Shell strong!!!! I find that it 2-3HKO'S EVERYTHING that doesn't resist it, and even resists will hate the defense drops it gets. Rock Smash is a nice coverage move, albeit weak and will be replaced by Grass Knot or Return later. Definetly A Tier, and has the best earlygame of all mons available at the time.

Pidove: All jokes aside, yeah this mon sucks with no good physical attacks barring lol Quick Attack. Needs Return and Fly to do ANYTHING AT ALL. C Tier, unless the endgame it becomes a killer

Cotonne: Cute, great nature and Prankster. Can't wait to see how it goes

also tl;dr bold wouldn't turn off for pidove and coton so ignore the bold there!?

Lillupup has Dewott's number though for "best mon in earlygame." The latter might edge out the former, but it's close. Herdier hits hard with 80 base Attack, and Dewott only has 83 Sp. Attack (which it can't use until Water Pulse at 25) and 75 Attack (eat your heart out Serperior). They actually tie at 60 speed, and Stoutland is faster than Samurott. Take Down also damage matches roughly factoring in the occasional miss.

Not saying "Oh Oshawott isn't the best starter" because it is. It's just that Lillipup wrecks the world as well. Helps that unlike Pignite, Dewott doesn't have to rely on weak moves.

Pidove in C is possible, but unlikely. See the first page for why everyone ragged on it. While most Flying types aside from Archeops and Sigilyph are underwhelming, if you really want a mediocre Flyer just use Ducklett, it picks up around the same time Unfezant does. If you want a Return beatstick pretty much any Normal outclasses it.

Going to be giving Audino another shot next run based on Magnus's good impressions. Gonna use Tepig/Audino/Ferroseed/Ducklett/Sandile. I don't think Pansage is gonna change tiers so that's why I'm not using it.