I already suggested Abra (Trade) to S-tier. I also have another suggestion for S-tier, but I want to see if someone else suggests it first, just so I don't snatch out every contributionSo are we completely getting rid of the S tier? Or is there something else that's more broken than Typhlosion?
Considering this, I think Lapras should end up in a high tier somewhere. It can only be caught on friday (and in the safari zone, I guess), but this is no problem with time manipulation. Lapras gets ice beam naturally, and at a reasonable level. It's one of the few pokemon that can stand up to Lance and Claire.Sorry, but I forgot to mention that you are allowed to use Time Manipulation to get Return and various other things at a faster rate. I will update this post with my Tests here.
Welcome!Hi all, really happy to see this discussion revitalised. I’d like to begin with a question, how do we differentiate between S and A tier? Both Totodile and Cyndaquil are great, but personally I believe Totodile has an edge on Cyndaquil as it doesn’t require a low accuracy TM (Fire Blast) for mid game sweeping, instead receiving Surf. In my opinion Cyndaquil should drop to A tier.
I’d be interested in also hearing others opinions on the following Pokémon:
Geodude (trade) to A tier. Super early availability, tears through the first 3 gyms.
Spearow (Kenya) to A tier. Given to the player at a great level once available. Gains exp at an increased rate as it’s classed as a traded Pokémon.
Red Gyarados should absolutely remain A tier, but standard Magikarp Should drop to B. There is a clear difference in ease of use between the two.
Going back to my earlier question, could either of these 3 be argued for S tier?
Finally, I can understand not wanting to open Pandora’s box with Kanto only Pokémon, but I think Snorlax at least deserves an honourable mention?
I've seen this argument a lot actually and feel that this is gonna be a Pokemon in constant debate on where it should go. B for right now sounds good just from experiences I have had in the past, but I am willing to move it up to A if we have enough reason to.I didn't notice Mareep in the initial tier listing and I'm going to think A or B sounds good.
This is an interesting nom. What you've listed for reasoning is pretty sound too. I would need some tests though to fully land on B if anyone is willing. Not to doubt it's prowess but I can also see it land in C, but that may be inaccurate.I want to nominate girafarig for B
Lapras, AT BEST, would be in B. I cannot place it in A as it misses out on 4 gyms, comes in at 20 (which is no way a bad level, but will require it to absorb a lot of XP to catch up), need a Surfer to get it, and get it on Friday (But Time Manip is allowed, so this is moot.) However, even with those negatives, it's got a lot of positives going for it too. Surf immediately and Ice Beam later on is amazing. Not to mention, you have Body Slam on you and a usable Attack Stat.Considering this, I think Lapras should end up in a high tier somewhere
Couple things here. We are juggling the idea of dropping both to A. We agree that FB is inaccurate and it enables Quil to do a lot, but more because it is forced to use it as 35 is your next usable Fire STAB that matches with the usable Stat. Totodile to this extent also shares this. Surf is good STAB sure, but you have Ice Fang which while inaccurate, uses the Attack stat and hits the Rock/Ground types anyway. Most will use Surf though still.I believe Totodile has an edge on Cyndaquil as it doesn’t require a low accuracy TM (Fire Blast) for mid game sweeping, instead receiving Surf. In my opinion Cyndaquil should drop to A tier.
Interesting case as you can also make a case for S. Golem here is at its best. It can sweep at least half the Gyms and sweep Lance (which is major points in of itself). Though A can work as well. Depends on the testers and what they think on this matter.Geodude (trade) to A tier. Super early availability, tears through the first 3 gyms.
Unfortunately, I cannot see this. Kenya, at best, would be a B. Fearow has clear issues. Return is required. Aerial Ace/Fly will be your STAB for the entirety of the game as Drill Peck is 47 which you should not really be at Lance. It's overall stats are middling outside of Attack and Speed. I don't doubt Kenya at all. But from the times I've used it, I've never thought of it as an A mon.Spearow (Kenya) to A tier. Given to the player at a great level once available. Gains exp at an increased rate as it’s classed as a traded Pokémon.
Red Gyara has a case for S. Once you get it by going East, preferably before Chuck as that's the best time to do so for Red Gyara, anytime after it starts to lose the placement and drop a tier. Outside of that, it absolutely requires no investment, can trash most everything thrown at you. It does require it to be 44 to sweep Lance which is major points towards S. As for Magikarp Route, I can agree on B.Red Gyarados should absolutely remain A tier, but standard Magikarp Should drop to B. There is a clear difference in ease of use between the two.
At best you would want to get Reversal. Intimidate helps prolong your HP to effectively use it. Though this is situational at best. You should not need to worry too much about missing anything Physically Fire Related. Fire Fang can be relearned as can Thunder Fang. Generally speaking, most Fire Mons will use the Fire Blast + Charcoal combo as it's proven to be effective. If you wanna really patch out the Physical side of Growlithe, Strength, Return, Dig all exist for it too. Granted, Fire Stone is gonna be a timesink. I could see it in C. D I feel may be too low for it.In my experience, Growlithe is not worth the grind required to acquire its best moves via level up before evolving with a painful to acquire stone. It was consistently my LVP until evolution and even then I never felt as though it stood out. D/C tier.
While I would like to, I cannot place it in a Tier without it undergoing tests. At best, it would be a B, potentially an A rating due to it being Post game. That may be underselling it massively too. But it is an absolute pain to catch, requires that you skip every Gym to that point so that it can participate in all 8 (unless you are forced to fight in one, which I am fairly sure you are not), requires a side quest to unlock and even then, backtrack to it, and it's outleveled in every fight.Finally, I can understand not wanting to open Pandora’s box with Kanto only Pokémon, but I think Snorlax at least deserves an honourable mention?
Now that you raised Pokewalker Kangaskhan, I just remembered we don't have a verdict on it in terms of tiering. So, should Pokewalker be considered for this list?I am gonna make the case for Heracross in S tier. I am gonna borrow the format used in other viability ranking threads like Colosseum and BW2.
Availability: Heracross is available early enough, with a short detour back to Azalea Town, since it has a 30% chance of being found when encountering a pokemon from headbutting trees. Do note though it will be quite underleveled for a little bit (It's max level doing this is five!).
Stats: Amazing attack right off of the bat. Solid Bulk and speed to boot, the only real glaring flaw is its bad Special Attack you will never use.
Typing: Bug Fighting does have its drawbacks, as flying types show up enough, but a fighting type in Johto has a lot of strong match ups.
Movepool: You start with Horn Attack that does decent neutral damage. At level 13 you get Aerial Ace which helps for coverage. At level 19 you get Brick Break which will basically 2hko at worst most pokemon you encounter. Close Combat comes at level 37. Unfortunately you do not get Megahorn until 55 which you likely wont be by the time you fight Lance.
Major battles: If you get Heracross to level 19 to get Brick Break, Whitney is an easy fight. Heracross can feasibly muscle its way through Chuck due ti its fighting resistance and Aerial Ace. Jasmine and Pryce should also be easy pickings for Heracross. Archer should be easy enough so long as your Heracross is speedier than his Houndoom. You also curbstomp Karen. To be honest, Heracross can put in work in almost any battle so long as it does not face a flying type.
I'm also gonna make the case for Kangaskhan for A Tier.
Availability: Normally this is not available until after you beat the game. But through
Pokemon Gothe Pokewalker, you have access to Kangaskhan at 3000 watts on the Refreshing Field, which is one of the first available Pokewalker locals available.
Stats: Respectable stats in bulk, attack, and speed. It will keep up with the rest of the team all the way until the end of the game.
Typing: Pure Normal is ok, nothing special but nothing terrible.
Movepool: Comet Punch will help you deal your damage early on. Bite at 13 will help you with the few ghost types in your way. Mega Punch at 19, although since by then you are at Goldenrod getting Return would be ideal. Crunch comes at 31 and Outrage at 37
Major battles: Can brute force its way through Bugsy, Whitney, and your rival no problem. Morty is a great matchup since you are immune to Shadow Ball and Bite crushes him. Claire also can be a surprisingly easy matchup if you have Outrage by that point. Outrage also can help vs Lance. Avoid Chuck, Jasmine, and Bruno at all costs. To be honest, it can just muscle its way through most trainers though by clicking Return.
Additional Notes: Since you get Bite and Crunch leveling up, Early Bird is the preferred ability.
Finally, I am gonna push for Lapras to B tier.
Availability: Lapras can be found on Fridays in Union Cave's Basement, which means 1: you need to backtrack to Union Cave, and 2: you need to have something that already has Surf to get there. It will be level 20.
Stats: Amazing bulk and decent offensive stats. On the slower side though but not unbearably slow.
Typing: Pure Normal is ok, nothing special but nothing terrible.
Movepool: Comes with Water Pulse (which will immediately become Surf), Ice Shard, Body Slam, and Confuse Ray. Ice Beam at Level 33 is the real standout though. Perish Song can be used for some cheeky lethals but its difficult to set up and rarely worth it.
Major battles: Stone walls Pryce and Surfs him to death, does well against your rival and Team Rocket. Claire is a strong matchup as well. Can do well against Will and Karen, though Slowbro for Will is an issue. Lance's three illegal dragonites die to Ice Beam, you do well against Charizard and Aerodactyl but need to watch out for Aero's Rock Slide.
Additional Notes: Water Absorb is the preferred ability in game, unless you really hate random crits.
I could do more from a few recent runs I did from HGSS, but I feel these are the team members I went through on this run I wanted to pump the most. My team this run was Typhlosion, Electabuzz, Kangaskhan, Heracross, Lapras, and Murkrow. I could do more write ups when I do my next run. Likely gonna edit in the Murkrow and Electabuzz ones later. TDLR Murkrow B Electabuzz C.
Agree with Red Gyara specifically to S.
I would honestly push Girafarig to A. I found its route sweeping abilities really strong. It is my personal favorite Psychic to use in game due to Alakazam being in a weird spot vs Morty and Espeon being such a hassle to evolve.
Murkrow I got early via pokewalker.Now that you raised Pokewalker Kangaskhan, I just remembered we don't have a verdict on it in terms of tiering. So, should Pokewalker be considered for this list?
For me personally, No. The In Game List article here has stated this:
"Note about the Pokéwalker: some of the Pokémon listed below require 10,000+ Watts to unlock with the Pokéwalker. As the Pokéwalker is a pedometer (which counts your real-life steps), for your health, please do not overexert yourself to obtain every single Pokémon in one go. Obtaining all of the Pokémon takes real time, and obtaining Pokémon is not worth enough to risk your own health."
I do not want people to overexert themselves in any manner for testing.
Next up, Girafarig. I think B sounds more realistic, based on the fact Girafaring isn't super powerful. Regardless, Ryota said he wanted to test it, so I want to wait for his results as well
Murkrow in B? Murkrow is in the Safari Zone and you can't get Honchkrow unless you beat Lance. I'd say Murkrow would be a D as it's Evo is locked behind Post Lance and can't really see any reason it be that high without it's matchups.
sure, as for Zubat, I had the wild idea of catching it post-Team Rocket with Friend Balls, I want to try that.As for Ryota, go ahead and test Butterfree, Slowbro, Zubat, and Girafarig.
Ehhhh. I can't say I am a huge fan of it, but I have never used it, so. The problem is that Pokewalker is highly unavailable, especially in areas like my country, without it being ridiculously expensive or adding high value to the games if you try purchasing online. Regardless, it's likely to benefit 2-3 mons at most? So I am not sure how worth it would be to feature Pokewalker just for 3 mons.So, should Pokewalker be considered for this list?
the typical amount of "healthy" steps per day is 5k-7k (per some sources I've read, they may not get the EXACT number correctly), so if something requires more than that, then it's definitely not "healthy" (10k steps, for example, is known to cause knee arthritis in some people).Taking many steps tbh is healthy
I think it makes sense to include the PokéWalker for completion's sake, as it's legitimately useful for players who have access to one. However, if PokéWalker is included then the Pokémon who are in a different rank because of it would need separate entries on the tier list for PokéWalker and non-PokéWalker, for players who don't have access to one. And it should be clear which Pokémon are available only through PokéWalker.Now that you raised Pokewalker Kangaskhan, I just remembered we don't have a verdict on it in terms of tiering. So, should Pokewalker be considered for this list?
Team Rocket isn't even that hard to beat for most mons? Only real threats are Petrel 2, Ariana 2, and Archer. Also, Slowbro exists. While you get it about a Gym later, it's got more going for it in the end, so Rig really faces some competition on best Psychic.I think it makes sense to include the PokéWalker for completion's sake, as it's legitimately useful for players who have access to one. However, if PokéWalker is included then the Pokémon who are in a different rank because of it would need separate entries on the tier list for PokéWalker and non-PokéWalker, for players who don't have access to one. And it should be clear which Pokémon are available only through PokéWalker.
Echoing Girafarig for A. It's an extremely valid choice in HGSS thanks to good availability and typing. Psychic-Type is really good against Team Rocket and a number of other bosses, and it's the best option besides Alakazam.
I'd also like to nominate Dratini (Goldenrod) for A/B
Availability: Early-game, acquired before the third gym badge. Requires a fair bit of grinding at Voltorb Flip, but comes at level 15 meaning it catches up to the rest of the team quite quickly.
Stats: Good balance of bulk and power, and its power buff at level 30 by evolving into Dragonair is pretty well-timed. Not outstanding, but made up for by its movepool.
Typing: The only available Dragon-Type Pokémon, it comes with a bevy of useful resistances. Most notably, it gives it an unrivalled (hehe) matchup against Silver's team if his ace is one of the Cyndaquil or Chikorita lines. It's rare that a generic trainer will be strong against it, as Ice- and Dragon-Type Pokémon are rare.
Movepool: Outstanding. Comes with Dragon Rage, which is a OHKO-2HKO against just about everything for a while after getting it, and Thunder Wave which is great utility for catching Pokémon or contributing to major battles without dealing damage. Its TM/HM movepool is vast, and allows it to theoretically contribute to every major battle (even Pryce!). However, securing these matchups costs money or time through Voltorb Flip, as most of the key TMs have to be bought from either the Game Corner or the Department Store in Goldenrod. Nevertheless, Dragon Rage is a great move for generic trainers until surprisingly late in the game.
Major battles: Consistently great.
tl;dr Dratini can modify its moveset to have dominant matchups against most bosses.
- Whitney: Dragon Rage 2HKOs Clefairy and 3HKOs Miltank. Miltank holds a Lum Berry, but using Thunder Wave twice can still be a useful contribution.
- Morty: Dragon Rage 2HKOs his entire team besides Gengar who heals out of 2HKO range with Sitrus Berry. However, it's still a Dratini so its bulk can be a problem if it Morty chooses good moves. Unreliable solo potential, but can contribute very well either way.
- Chuck: Dragon Rage 2HKOs Primeape and Thunder(bolt) 2HKOs or OHKOs Poliwrath depending on if Dratini has evolved or not yet. Bulk is an issue again if still a Dratini, but Dragonair can solo this just fine.
- Jasmine: Bodies her with Fire Blast / Flamethrower.
- Pryce: Its weakest matchup, it can still contribute with Thunder(bolt) on Seel and Dewgong or Fire Blast / Flamethrower / Iron Tail for Piloswine. Has enough bulk to take two or three moves from Seel and Dewgong, but Piloswine's Blizzard bodies it.
- Clair: Another shaky matchup, but it can still contribute well. Thunder(bolt) takes out Gyarados and Dragonair easily survives a move from it, and can then use either Dragon Rush (learned by level-up soon before the battle), Ice Beam or Blizzard to work on her Dragonair, which your own Dragonair should outspeed thanks to picking up random speed EVs along the way. With luck -- accurate Dragon Rushes -- and a Sitrus Berry Dragonair can even take out Kingdra and solo this battle, but reliance on Dragon Rush is unfortunate.
- Will: Just Ice Beam / Blizzard ploughs through the 2 Xatu and Exeggutor, while Slowbro presents the option of OHKOing with Thunder, or 2HKOing with Thunderbolt or Dragon Pulse. Jynx is a bad matchup, though.
- Karen: Overall a good matchup. Umbreon is annoying if you're entirely a special set, but not unbeatable since it deals minimal damage. Ice Beam / Blizzard mow down Vileplume and Murkrow, while Surf / Aqua Tail beats Houndoom and just about any move 2HKOs Gengar.
- Koga: Flamethrower / Fire Blast OHKOs Ariados, Forretress and Venomoth, while Thunder(bolt) or Ice-Type move OHKOs or 2HKOs Crobat depending on if its the strong but inaccurate move or the weak but accurate one. Muk is a 2HKO with Dragon Rush, otherwise if an entirely special set it can be useful to Thunder Wave it before chipping down.
- Bruno: Largely a neutral matchup. Destroys Onix, but Hitmonchan is shaky due to its good special bulk and strong Ice Punch. Hitmonlee similarly hits real hard and is 3HKO'd back (2HKO'd by Dragon Rush), but Hitmontop is no issue and can be taken out. Machamp is a win 1v1, but not by the time it's sent out as Dragonair will have taken too much damage beforehand. One of its weaker matchups, but Thunder Wave has utility to support teammates and it's a great option for Onix (but many things are).
- Lance: If somehow keeping up with levels and evolving into Dragonite at level 50, this is a solo. In the likelier circumstance -- that it's still a Dragonair -- it can win 1v1 against Gyarados and Aerodactyl with Thunder(bolt) or, for Aerodactyl, Ice Beam / Blizzard / Surf / Aqua Tail too. The other 4 take it out with their strong super-effective hits, however.
Additional Notes: Dratini's placement in A or B depends on how we weigh the investment required for acquiring its best moves and the Pokémon itself against its great battle prowess. Notably, Dragon Rush | Dragon Pulse / Iron Tail / Aqua Tail | Surf / Thunder Wave | Dragon Pulse is a perfectly serviceable final moveset on this thing that doesn't require buying TMs, but reduces its utility in major boss battles. Finally, Dratini (Dragon's Den) should be ranked separately, likely much lower.
FWIW Dratini kept up well when I ran through the game with it because it was the best Pokémon to use against most of the random trainers. Dragon Rage is broken with HGSS' level curve since trainers don't level up enough to increase their HP enough to obsolete it. I also think it's optimal to run with the less accurate moves rather than grinding Voltorb Flip and it's what I did; Dragonair is bulky enough to afford the misses, but some players would rather the more accurate moves so I included them in the write-up alongside the less accurate ones.Team Rocket isn't even that hard to beat for most mons? Only real threats are Petrel 2, Ariana 2, and Archer. Also, Slowbro exists. While you get it about a Gym later, it's got more going for it in the end, so Rig really faces some competition on best Psychic.
Dratini is more of a C/D even with GC. From what I am reading here, you are wanting to use Thunderbolt or Ice Beam in most matchups. When both are 10k Coins at the GC. Counting that with Dratini who is already 2,100 and a time sink. You are looking at 22,100 coins for what you are nomming ii for. As in my OP, anything that requires you to get things from the GC (as I explicitly mentioned Thunderbolt) drops its tier. Blizzard and Thunder are fine, but Nair will miss with those just like Rush.
To tack onto this, Dratini is in the Slow XP meaning it's gonna take forever really to get it to Nair, and it's stats, even as Nair, are not all that great. It is also worth noting that Miltank is a 2HKO with Dragon Rage. You don't actually drop it into a Potion healing range with that.
Modifying it's movepool is also an issue here. You'll be pumping it full of TMs to match those fights, and with that comes Cost.
We weigh the GC TMs high here. I am not barring them, but it will hurt the Pokemon's placement as no one should have to spend hours getting both of those to make a Mon look good.
For Khlaylav, really up to what you want here. Just remember that 5 may start to interfere with your XP.
Backtrack for Slowbro. No one should have to suffer through SlowpokeFWIW Dratini kept up well when I ran through the game with it because it was the best Pokémon to use against most of the random trainers. Dragon Rage is broken with HGSS' level curve since trainers don't level up enough to increase their HP enough to obsolete it. I also think it's optimal to run with the less accurate moves rather than grinding Voltorb Flip and it's what I did; Dragonair is bulky enough to afford the misses.
C/D is far too low though. Disregarding Game Corner and Voltorb Flip entirely, it still has access to: Dragon Rage, Thunder Wave, Dragon Rush, Aqua Tail (level-up), Surf (HM) and Iron Tail and Dragon Pulse (gym TMs). Using these moves exclusively is still a B-rank worthy mon without a doubt.
Slowpoke evolves at level 37, so it's a Slowpoke for the vast majority of Team Rocket if not all of it. Even if you grind and make it a Slowbro, Girafarig still has an advantage because it outspeeds many more Pokémon meaning it takes less damage over the course of several battles. Both can beat Team Rocket just fine, but Girafarig is much more efficient at it. And most Pokémon can beat Team Rocket, so efficiency is what really matters.
well, it's just what I've read. Again, they may not get the exact number and it probably varies.Ryota Mitarai that surprises me, I usually walk at least 8000 steps a day according to my health app. Regardless, I feel that since it is a valid source of Pokémon and does not sequence break, it should be counted but the Pokewalker must be stressed as a part of why it is rated where it is. For example, Kangaskhan and Murkrow would not be A and B in my opinion respectively if I couldn’t get them so early.
Are you testing them at once? I highly suggest just sticking to 4 mons per run, as you otherwise will fall off in levels (unless you abuse things like Pokegear rematches). I think Yanma will just end up in F anyways, it's a 1% encounter with a terrible movepool. I have used Machamp (more specifically, Muscle the Machop from Goldenrod) and I found it as an A-ranker. I can post logs if Turdterra or anyone else wants to check them. So I suggest just not testing Yanma and test either Machamp or Swinub as 4th member, whichever you want, unless Turdterra requests something specificCurrently my run has Totodile, Mareep, and Slugma from the Primo egg. Planning on testing Machamp, Yanma, and Swinub. God help me.
I am, I usually do teams of 6 due to my personal OCD of wanting a full team. I might to a team of 5 instead, although I have personally never had too big of an issue with levels in HGSS. Also helps Machop will have the EXP bonus on it.well, it's just what I've read. Again, they may not get the exact number and it probably varies.
Are you testing them at once? I highly suggest just sticking to 4 mons per run, as you otherwise will fall off in levels (unless you abuse things like Pokegear rematches). I think Yanma will just end up in F anyways, it's a 1% encounter with a terrible movepool. I have used Machamp (more specifically, Muscle the Machop from Goldenrod) and I found it as an A-ranker. I can post logs if Turdterra or anyone else wants to check them. So I suggest just not testing Yanma and test either Machamp or Swinub as 4th member, whichever you want, unless Turdterra requests something specific
I'd also suggest posting logs of your playthrough, like how each Pokemon fared against each Gym Leader, this would help others check your progress and comment if there's anything to mention. You can check my tests above to see what a log could look like. Gl with your run!