Pokemon RBY In-game Tiers

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Redew

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Guys, I'm really sorry about this. I haven't forgotten! I promise.

I've just been busy with life all of a sudden. Too many surprises and things.

I promise I'll read through the whole thread and organize the OP as much as I can with what time I have this week.

Again, I'm really sorry.
 
Guys, I'm really sorry about this. I haven't forgotten! I promise.

I've just been busy with life all of a sudden. Too many surprises and things.

I promise I'll read through the whole thread and organize the OP as much as I can with what time I have this week.

Again, I'm really sorry.
Don't stress about it, you'll get to it when you get to it. It's a community project and there are no deadlines or anything.

Btw, I revamped the Abra post with more accurate detail on a previous page (its in hide tags), just fyi. :)
 

Chou Toshio

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I don't think I saw one but:



Exeggcute - Low Tier
Availability: Pretty damn late... it appears in the Safari Zone, though it's fairly common and easy to catch, and comes at a max of level 26-27, which is...possibly useable... but decidedly under leveled. It can be immediately evolved with a Leaf Stone.
Stats: The evolved Exeggcutor has freaking amazing stats-- of course, it's one of the most used OU Pokemon after all. Massive fat 125 Special, and above average stats everywhere but Speed-- stats are a major reason why Exeggcutor is an amazing force in competition.
Movepool: Exeggcute comes to you with a pretty meh movepool of Hypnosis, Barrage, and Reflect, and immediately learns the similarly almost-good-but-still-meh Leech Seed. It's best Grass Stab is Mega Drain (ew...), so like competitive sets, you will likely be depending on the Psychic TM as your main means of doing damage; though you do have immediate access to the Psychic TM at the point in the game you get Exeggcute. Exeggcutor does have a decent 95 Attack stat and can use Strength, Stomp, or Hyper Beam. It gets the powders too, but really late (level 48 for Sleep Powder... ew...), so you'll likely be immediately evolving and just enduring with Hypnosis. Explosion, probably don't want to use it in-game.
Power: Psychic and 125 Special rips shit up. Mega Drain can do decent damage against opponents it hits super effectively, and Exeggcutor's decent Attack means it can actually best other Psychic-types like Alakazam by stomping them to death on their weaker physical side.
Type: Grass / Psychic is obviously good typing in general-- it's the main reason Exeggcutor is so popular in OU. However, in-game, Grass does more to hurt Exeggcutor than help, especially at the point in the game you get it. Ground-, Electric-, and Water-type attacks are rare enough that these much-sought resistances in the competitive scene are less useful in game. Low Speed and weaknesses to Fire-, Poison-, and Ice-type attacks are a bit of a burden.
Match-ups:
Koga: If you evolve it and teach it Psychic, it can destroy anything he has. Keep in mind you will be horribly outmatched level-wise (you catch Exeggcutor in Fushia at max level 27, Koga's Pokes are all level 37-50). In RB, if you don't do some major grinding, his pokes will outrun and smack you with powerful super effective Sludge attacks. In Yellow, the Venonats can only status you, but Venomoth carries the 4x super effective Leech Life (though... it is only Leech Life), and is at level 50.
Saffron Rockets: You have STAB Psychic, and resist Electric, so you will have a big advantage.
Sabrina: Exeggcutor can do well here if you have trained it sufficiently and taught it Stomp or Strength. Its Psychic resistance, high Special, and decent Attack give it a significant advantage--again, assuming you've leveled up sufficiently.
Blaine: Er... just don't get hit by a Fire-type attack. Yeah...
Giovanni: Exeggcutor obviously dominates this gym.
Lorelei: Exeggcutor's not dead weight here, with its massive Special allowing it to whether some Ice-type attacks, and retaliate with super effective Mega Drain (healing back in the process). However, your low Speed, high probability of being under leveled, and the sheer power of Lapras's Blizzard will not make this an easy match up for Eggy.
Bruno: Eggy basically laughs at anything Bruno can do (again, provided you get to a decent level).
Agatha: Everything she has will be destroyed by a STAB Psychic attack, but with your low speed, prepared to face several turns of sleeping and hurting yourself in confusion (and being extremely annoyed) before you can claim victory here... eventually.
Lance: You're slow and will not like taking repeated Hyper Beams. In Yellow, 2nd Dragonair and Dragonite can hit you with powerful super effective attacks. Not dead weight, but not great.
Rival: Exeggcutor has an advantage against most of his Pokemon. Just be wary of those with Flying and Fire attacks.
Additional Comments: All things considered, the above information definitely doesn't look bad. Good stats, a usable movepool (fuck, in RBY, STAB Psychic = usable movepool), and a few favorable match-ups. So, what's the problem? The problem is that in addition to Eggy coming so late and under-leveled in the game, it's further hindered by a really slow experience curve and low Speed. In terms of power, experience curve, and availability, you could compare it to Tauros and Staryu-- except that both of those Pokemon have a much better Speed stat. Better Speed allows them to rapidly sweep through opponents and "grind" their way to catch up to the rest of the team with comparable ease. With Exeggcutor, you will find yourself constantly stopping to bust out healing items as you try to catch up to the rest of the team-- making it decidedly more annoying to train. Given dedication, Eggy will blossom to its potential, as one of the most popular of competitive Pokemon-- in-game though, you're probably much better off with Venusaur or Victrebel... or Alakazam.



Also, everything Dracoyoshi said @Dewgong. Zapdos / Articuno are top mostly just because they appear at freaking level 50-- I mean, 50's the level you should be aiming to have your whole team at by the end of things, and to get the poke at that level is just too good. Planning to use Zapdos and Articuno on your team saves so much on training early game. If you use Snorlax, Zapdos, and Articuno, you only need to train 3 Pokemon early-mid game. So, if you pour all your effort into Alakazam, Blastoise, and Nido/Dugtrio, you should have a really high leveled and extremely powerful team with almost no effort. Though I mean, Blastoise / Alakazam / Dugtrio / Snorlax / Articuno / Zapdos is probably close to the most efficient team in terms of experience gaining and decisive power at the last stage of the game.
 

Still underestimating Dewgong? Okay, let's shatter any misconception that Dewgong is anything but Top Tier.

Enjoy the show as a lvl 43 Dewgong solos the Elite Four. He's underleveled and alone. But it doesn't matter. It's Dewgong.

Watch a lvl 43 Dewgong steamroll Lorelei. Total Turns: 7
Bruno flattened easily. Total Turns: 7
Agatha at least puts up a fight... Total Turns: 18 Slower fight with Confuse Ray and Ghosts, but still, very doable.
Dewgong cuts Lance down with STAB Blizzards. Total Turns: 8 No need for Horn Drill except for Gyarados, who oddly never used Hyper Beam. I used one extra X Speed to make sure Aerodactyl didn't outspeed and smack me with a Hyper Beam of its own.

The Champion is still a chump Total Turns: 9

Total turns to beat all the final bosses: 49. A count of all items used, including outside of battle totaled to 17.

I recorded this all on the first take, but you get the point. Infact, given better planning, Agatha could've gone down way quicker...

Still, I'd like to see anyone try to match this performance with a lvl 43 Starmie, lvl 43 Gyarados, lvl 43 Alakazam, or *insert any other Top Tier*. Let's see it.

Can other "Top Tiers" match up to this run?

Maybe Starmie w/ Surf/Blizzard/Thunderbolt/Psychic, or possibly Gyarados. Alakazam not so much since it has nothing but Psychic.

Bulk + Typing + OHKOs = Gamebreaking. Dewgong breaks the game, and belongs with all the other Top Tiers.

Dewgong may join your team later, but he requires almost no investment to catch up to your party. Especially when he starts around lvl 34-38. You just saw how fast traded pokemon grow. Sailor shot up 11 levels in a matter of minutes battling bosses. Compare that to grinding a fished Staryu at lvl 15-20 when your team is in the 30s, or grinding a Magikarp at lvl 5 with nothing but Splash.

So, he's available EXACTLY when Zapdos is available(except no detour required), catches up to your team no problem, and he's arguably as powerful as Zapdos, Starmie, Gyarados, etc. Why is Zapdos top and Dewgong mid?

Everytime I see someone call Dewgong "Mid Tier", I know I'm talking to someone who's never played with Dewgong. Dewgong is overpowered and more than makes up for its "late" appearance, just like Zapdos.
 

Chou Toshio

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^Well, do keep in mind that Starmie is being put in Mid-tier, despite having a similar performance at the E4, and requires little to no item support. Also keep in mind that beating the E4 is not all there is to it-- Alakazam, Gyarados and Starmie clear out your average trainers much more easily than Dewgong (who is underpowered without item support, and I'm not going to use items every time I run into cool trainer z), and that most well trained and supported Pokemon can handle the E4, which is pretty crappy generally speaking...

Alakazam and Gyarados have higher rank than Starmie (and ultimately, Dewgong) because they appear early and help you through most of the game, not just the Elite Four.

What this tells me though is that the rank of Zapdos and Articuno probably has to be re-evaluated, because they appear at a similar time to Dewgong, and from what I can tell, are inferior in performance (against boss characters).

I propose this outline of the Pokemon we're comparing:

Top:
Blastoise (starter, consistent performance throughout, Blizzard + Fissure later)
Alakazam (for appearing early to dominate most of the game, not just the E4)

High:
Gyarados (similarly dominates throughout like Alakazam after appearing early, but not top due to the early grind fest to evolve it and slow exp-curve)
Dewgong (basically comes late, but gets boosted experience and abuses horn drill and bulk; annoying to use against basic trainers, but it can get the job done well enough-- they're basic trainers after all)
Zapdos (huge level, power, but limited coverage)
Articuno (see Zapdos)

Mid-Tier:
Starmie (Dominates, but has slow experience curve, TM hungry, underleveled and late)
 
@TBH

There are 25 pokemon breeds that learn OHKO moves in this game. That's breeds, so not including base forms like Squirtle and Ekans, but who also learn it. That means using OHKOs doesn't make Dewgong special in any sense of the word. Many of the pokemon who learn the OHKO moves come much earlier, including Charizard, Blastoise, Nidoking, Nidoqueen, Kangaskhan, Arbok, Dugtrio, Lapras, Rhydon and Tauros. I know I've left out a few, but I seriously can not be bothered listing everything. But by your logic, this means we have 25 Top Tier pokemon, purely on who learns one of two TMs.

Then how do we divide those pokemon? Pokemon like the Nidos come much earlier, and you get Charizard and Blastoise at the start. You get Lapras at Silph Co and Dugtrio before fighting Lt Surge. In addition, you can get Rhydon, Kangaskhan and Tauros at the safari zone. This means that you will be using them for much longer than before Dewgong is available. Additionally, many of these pokemon are faster (and so don't require X-Speed).

Lets be honest here, if we are taking to account OHKO and item set-ups, we should look at them very critically. They require a ton of item support:

A TM (Horn Drill or Fissure)
An X-Accuracy and an X-Speed used every battle
All your PP-Ups to maximize efficiency
Ethers and Elixers for long dungeons (and you can't buy them again)

Compared to Gyarados who only requires one-time uses of TMs, and who can OHKO a ton of stuff based on raw power alone, who you get really early, the inconvenience to make Dewgong better is massive. Dewgong is mid-tier, high at most. The others have already stated a plethora of reasons why Dewgong is mid, he's less efficient and less useful.

Also, I think OHKO moves shouldn't be considered during tiering, as you need an X-Accuracy and an X-Speed every battle, plus you need to run back to the pokemon center to restore your PP (or waste your Ethers/Elixers). Other pokemon score KOs in 1 hit even without these moves and need far less support. It's a huge money drain strategy that is completely unnecessary and convoluted.

THB said:
Alakazam not so much since it has nothing but Psychic.
That's like saying a Marine would be terrible in a street fight because he only has an AK-47. Psychic is the best STAB move to get in the game. 3 pokemon in the E4 resist it, 9 pokemon are weak to it and everything else takes it neutrally. Alakazam sweeps both Agatha and Bruno with PSYBEAM. A base 65 power move. It does this in 10 turns. That's power Dewgong wishes it has. Even if we were including items in this run through, using an X-Special on Alakazam at the beginning of battles means his STAB Psychic rips through everything.

EDIT: @Chou, I agree 100% with your list.
 

Chou Toshio

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Incidentally, this would also force Jolteon into High Tier at best, but I'd favor Mid Tier. Gengar should probably also be downgraded to Mid Tier considering the relative ranks of Jolteon and Zapdos.

Edit: @OHKO moves

I actually think these things need to be considered. X-Acc and X-Speed are easy to get items-- they're cheap, and the game gives you tons of money. I'd say they're fair game to consider for performance against Gyms, your rival, and the E4.

That said, not every OHKO user can be a high tier+ poke just because it has OHKO moves. Against your random nobody trainer though, not so much... if only because it'd be annoying to have to use an item against every random trainer when I could just blast them with something powerful. Plus as mentioned, relying on ethers over long jouneys is awful, so a Poke has to have more than just OHKO moves to be good.

Golem (who is definitely better than Rhyhorn), can't set it up on just any opponent because of its really awful Special and weaknesses. Dugtrio and Charizard (who both should be High Tier / Top Tier overall anyway), have trouble abusing Fissure because of their lack of bulk too (plus, they can just spam their STAB moves and Slash...). Arbok can't do anything else... it's stuck against all those random trainers on long journeys.

Stuff like Tauros, Pinser, Kangaskan, etc., appear late as well and have other problems (like you can't catch them...).

I think Dewgong is a bit of a special case because it has the bulk and typing to set it up against basically any boss character (gym leader, rival, e4), and while not hitting especially hard or fast, does well enough against your typical trainers with Aurora Beam + Surf (you can delete Aurora Beam right before you reach the Elite 4 with a TM if you want to upgrade). It comes underleveled, but unlike Starmie, has its experience boost from being a traded mon (and catching a wild Ponyta is ridiculously easy), and can do its job without hogging really important TMs. I'd say it belongs in the high tier for being a solid late-game addition to the team (like Zapdos or Articuno).
 
I think Dewgong is a bit of a special case because it has the bulk and typing to set it up against basically any boss character (gym leader, rival, e4), and while not hitting especially hard or fast, does well enough against your typical trainers with Aurora Beam + Surf (you can delete Aurora Beam right before you reach the Elite 4 with a TM if you want to upgrade). It comes underleveled, but unlike Starmie, has its experience boost from being a traded mon (and catching a wild Ponyta is ridiculously easy), and can do its job without hogging really important TMs. I'd say it belongs in the high tier for being a solid late-game addition to the team (like Zapdos or Articuno).
My point with the listing is that many pokemon learn OHKO moves and they shouldn't be top-tier. I'm not arguing with you Chou because you seem to be the most knowledgeable person participating in this discussion.

Although with OHKO moves, wouldn't Rapidash be a better abuser of Horn Drill? I mean it can essentially employ said X-Accuracy + Horn Drill combo as you can get Ponyta to the West of Celadon. Plus, it's lightning speed means that it often doesn't need to use an X-Speed to boost it. It's defenses are slightly worse than Dewgong's but since it needs 1 less turn of set-up, it's relying on its bulk a lot less. It gets Agility as well, meaning it is less item-dependent. I mean, it only learns Fire Spin and evolves late and requires a use of a fire TM, but at any point it can just spam Horn Drill over and over.

Also, if we are taking into account OHKO moves, I vote Tauros moves up to high-tier. It gets the best speed of any Horn Drill user, and has decent-enough bulk to set up 1 X-accuracy. In addition, it can learn Fissure as well, essentially being able to double the amount of OHKOs it can dish out and can hit those pesky Ghost types.
 

Chou Toshio

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Well, thing with Tauros is it can pretty much destroy everything even if it doesn't use OHKO moves-- EQ and Body Slam / Hyper Beam from Tauros isn't all that different from Horn Drill and Fissure. Tauros's problem isn't power, type, stats or any of that-- Tauros was mid-tier'd because of how f'ing hard it is to get a Tauros, plus it comes late and under leveled.

Rapidash has a lot of problems in general. Ponyta appears at the same time as Staryu / Dewgong basically, but unlike Seel (who evolves almost immediately), has to wait until level 40. Furthermore, Fire is a really meh attack type, and unlike Charizard with its Slash, Rapidash's best Normal type attack is Stomp (unless you use the TMs Body Slam or Hyper Beam).

I don't know... personally the combination of all these factors is pretty bad... I'd say Rapidash is Low Tier, unless anyone wants to make an argument that it deserves Mid Tier just because it has decent stats and Horn Drill.

Also, definitely not one of the more knowledgeable people here. I learned a lot about the mechanics of RBY through this thread lol
 

ElectivireRocks

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My point with the listing is that many pokemon learn OHKO moves and they shouldn't be top-tier. I'm not arguing with you Chou because you seem to be the most knowledgeable person participating in this discussion.

Although with OHKO moves, wouldn't Rapidash be a better abuser of Horn Drill? I mean it can essentially employ said X-Accuracy + Horn Drill combo as you can get Ponyta to the West of Celadon. Plus, it's lightning speed means that it often doesn't need to use an X-Speed to boost it. It's defenses are slightly worse than Dewgong's but since it needs 1 less turn of set-up, it's relying on its bulk a lot less. It gets Agility as well, meaning it is less item-dependent. I mean, it only learns Fire Spin and evolves late and requires a use of a fire TM, but at any point it can just spam Horn Drill over and over.

Also, if we are taking into account OHKO moves, I vote Tauros moves up to high-tier. It gets the best speed of any Horn Drill user, and has decent-enough bulk to set up 1 X-accuracy. In addition, it can learn Fissure as well, essentially being able to double the amount of OHKOs it can dish out and can hit those pesky Ghost types.
What you said is incorrect. If anything, Rapidash is even more item dependant than Dewgong because once you run out of Horn Drill PP, it's completely and utterly useless, unlike Dewgong who can easily take down Bruno's Onixes, Lance's entire team, Gary's Rhydon, Pidgeot and Charizard/Arcanine and Agatha's Golbat with its STAB moves, even if underleveled.

What can Rapidash do without Horn Drill? Take out Venusaur? Jynx maybe? And that's it. Fire in RBY is down there with Poison for being the worst type, both offensively and defensively. At least Fire actually gets good attacks, which is its only saving grace.

And since PP restoring items are limited, unlike X Speed/accuracy, in the long run it's better to use Dewgong.
 

Brambane

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My issue with Dewgong is how reliant on items it is. I could slap an X Special and X Attack on Zapdos and probably accomplish the same thing. Or an X Special and X Speed on Venusaur, X Special and X Speed on Gyarados, X Special and X Attack on Nidoking, etc. With item support, every Pokemon can turn into an OHKO machine without even needing to rely on Horn Drill/Fissure. Literally any Pokemon can take some X Items, buff up its stats and sweep. I just don't see how Dewgong does it any better than any other Pokemon. That being said, those were still pretty sweet videos.

Without looking at X Items and judging Dewgong on its own merits, Dewgong is probably the next best thing after Blastoise, Gyarados and Vaporeon. It levels up fast and base 95 Special is enough to hurt some things with. I won't really compare Dewgong to other Ice-types, but in comparison to other Water-types, here's how I would place it:

Top Tier
--Blastoise - Starter, have it most of the game, overall good stats
High Tier
--Gyarados - Amazing power but requires grinding that may turn off some players
--Vaporeon - High Special and insane HP makes it durable, but mediocre Speed and being an eeveelution are problems
--Dewgong - Best alternative if you don't want to grind Gyarados and you want another eeveelution
Mid Tier
--Slowbro - Amnesia, high HP and Defense, and a good movepool, but is slow and comes late
--Starmie - Amazing movepool, Speed, and Special, but comes too late at too low a level
--Cloyster - Pretty much invulnerable, but comes late and at too low a level
--Lapras - Great stats, but lower Speed and coming at level 15 makes it outshined by Dewgong
--Tentacruel - Very high Special and Speed and can be caught at an astounding level 40, but levels up slow
--Omastar - Great Defense and Special and resists everything Blaine can throw at it, but comes somewhat underleveled
Low Tier
--All other Water-types except Seaking
Bottom Tier
--Seaking - is terribad

Top Tier Pokemon, in my opinion, should be Pokemon that either: 1) come early in the game, aren't too difficult to obtain and can effectively hurt things (Starters, Nidorans, Alakazam), or 2) Require literally no leveling when obtained and can effectively KO everything it encounters (Legendary birds).
 

ElectivireRocks

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My issue with Dewgong is how reliant on items it is. I could slap an X Special and X Attack on Zapdos and probably accomplish the same thing. Or an X Special and X Speed on Venusaur, X Special and X Speed on Gyarados, X Special and X Attack on Nidoking, etc. With item support, every Pokemon can turn into an OHKO machine without even needing to rely on Horn Drill/Fissure. Literally any Pokemon can take some X Items, buff up its stats and sweep. I just don't see how Dewgong does it any better than any other Pokemon. That being said, those were still pretty sweet videos.
But it's not doing any worse either.
If Dewgong can accomplish the same tasks as the top-tier pokemon you mentioned, then it belongs to their tier. It's easy as that.
Besides Dewgong is far more useful than just Horn Drill spamming. Since you brought up Zapdos, who is caught at level 50, why don't you compare it with a level 50 Dewgong?
If we're talking about the traded one, which gets an exp. boost, then it's not an illogical comparison.

Dewgong:
-sweeps the last two gyms even if underleveled
-sweeps Lorelei with Horn Drill with the help of X speed and X accuracy. Lorelei's entire team can't even scratch it
-sweeps Bruno's 2 Onixes with no set up. sweeps the rest of its team without Horn Drill thanks to their non-existant special stat
-has trouble with Agatha's ghosts at low levels, but easily takes down Golbat and Arbok
-sweeps Lance's team
-sweeps half of Gary's team without setup. Needs Horn Drill for his grass type (at low levels), water type and Alakazam

Zapdos, on the other hand:
-has trouble with the last gym
-almost sweeps Lorelei's team but can't win against Jynx and Lapras if underleveled
-can't touch Bruno's Onixes even at high levels
-sweeps Agatha's team more easily than Dewgong
-easily beats Lance's Aerodactyl and Gyarados but has trouble with Dragonair and Dragonite
-can't touch Gary's Rhydon even at high levels

As you can see, Dewgong has actually an easier time dealing with the endgame bosses compared to Zapdos. At high levels it won't even need Horn Drill anymore, while Zapdos will always be forced out against the Ground/Rock types.

Overall, Dewgong is top tier material.
 
Breaking away from the Dewgong discussion for a bit...


Spearow - High Tier (edit: mid?)
Availability: Very Early, right after you first get Pokeballs
Stats: High damage, high Speed (and thus CH rate), but poor defenses
Movepool: High-PP, powerful STAB Drill Peck at level 29 (Spearow) or 34 (Fearow) and then spams Drill Peck for the rest of the game; can be taught Hyper Beam
Power: Evolves very early, at level 20, and 2HKOes almost every pokemon that doesn't resist Flying once it gets Drill Peck and OHKOes frail powerhouses like Sabrina's Alakazam
Type: Great STABs, although their coverage is a bit redundant; no important resists, immune to Ground-type moves (although they tend to be paired with Rock-types), weak to Electric and Ice.
Match-ups:
Brock: bad
Misty: mediocre, usually can't solo Starmie
Erika: sweeps
Koga: mediocre
Blaine: OHKOes Growlithe and Ponyta, mediocre besides
Sabrina: sweeps
Giovanni: OHKOes Dugtrio, mediocre besides
Lorelei: OHKOes Jynx, mediocre besides
Bruno: Destroys his 3 fighters but gets walled by his two Onix
Agatha: sweeps
Lance: 2HKOes anything but Aerodactyl, and is very frail
Rival: OHKOes Alakazam and his Grass-type, outspeeds and 2HKOes Pidgeot, usually beaten by Water-type and Rhydon
 

Chou Toshio

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Spearow looks good I'd say :)

But it's not doing any worse either.
If Dewgong can accomplish the same tasks as the top-tier pokemon you mentioned, then it belongs to their tier. It's easy as that.
Besides Dewgong is far more useful than just Horn Drill spamming. Since you brought up Zapdos, who is caught at level 50, why don't you compare it with a level 50 Dewgong?
Because Dewgong doesn't come at that level... duh. If I could have any Pokemon at level 50 magically, fuck Zapdos or Dewgong, I'd want a level 50 Tauros... or Mewtwo...

If we're talking about the traded one, which gets an exp. boost, then it's not an illogical comparison.
Yes it is, it doesn't magically become level 50 even with the experience boosts... >_>


Dewgong:
-sweeps the last two gyms even if underleveled
-sweeps Lorelei with Horn Drill with the help of X speed and X accuracy. Lorelei's entire team can't even scratch it
-sweeps Bruno's 2 Onixes with no set up. sweeps the rest of its team without Horn Drill thanks to their non-existant special stat
-has trouble with Agatha's ghosts at low levels, but easily takes down Golbat and Arbok
-sweeps Lance's team
-sweeps half of Gary's team without setup. Needs Horn Drill for his grass type (at low levels), water type and Alakazam
As I pointed out, this power is only effective against boss characters, since you don't want to use items for each and every random trainer battle outside, especially with Horn Drill's crappy PP. Zapdos/Articuno are not only great at the Elite 4, but are great on the treck through Victory Road (and through the Cerulean Cave if you consider catching Mewtwo as the last stage of the game). As Dracoyoshi pointed out, it's not that impressive to be amazing with items, and Dewgong is pretty item dependent to get the performance we're talking about.

Finally, killing opponents 1 on 1 isn't the bottom line-- In Game Tiering is done in the spirit of making a team, because otherwise just making a level 70 Blastoise or Charizard is obviously the easiest and most efficient way to break the game in two.
 

Jorgen

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I'd put Spearow in Mid Tier personally. Medium experience growth is agonizing in the early-game when all the other upper-tier mons get Parabolic growth, and once you're out of the Viridian Forest it's only useful in spurts until you reach Erika, and only if you've been patient enough to grind it up to Drill Peck level in the non-ideal sections. After Erika, Fearow is okay at best, and you could always get Zapdos for your Drill Pecking needs.
 

Chou Toshio

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Originally I thought high tier might be ok if Dux is going in Mid Tier... but Spearow only outclasses Dux as a battler, where as Dux moves up the ranks a bit for getting Fly + Cut. Being in the same tier might be fine.
 
Beedrill is MUCH higher than what it is put at.

Bug is arguably the best attacking type in gen 1. Poison types are abundant throughout the game. Beedrills attack and speed are at a place where even though they aren't crazy good they are good enough to be usable. Although he isn't the best in the elite four he isn't that bad for agatha. Also he is caught and evolved early and is powerful against Misty if you lack rattata. If you train your pokemon well enough he will solo sabrina erika and koga

TL:DR Beedrill isn't the best thing ever but it's definitely not the worst. Twineedle is the best move in gen 1 and he has a monopoly over it.


Magikarp: Hes a complete bitch to train. He needs heavy TM support to do well. He may be super powerful by the time you get to e4 but there is a huge investment. Hes good but not high tier good. I believe that is where squirtle should go and magikarp is not on par with squirtle. The only thing magikarp has on other waters like tentacool or starmie is that you can get it early.
 
"Best" attacking type when your best consistent move has 50 BP (Twiwneedle)? Hahahahahahahano.
most of the game is weak to bug (all the rockets, 3/8 gyms an entire route plus many many other trainers on other routes) 50 BP with stab isn't horrible in gen1. It also poisons which is a nice bonus.
 

Nix_Hex

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Itchni said:
Beedrill is pretty slow, has weak Attack, has weak STAB (you know what the best attacking type in the game is? Any move with the most power, not Bug), and is incredibly frail. It's not getting out of Bottom, sorry.
 
Beedrill is MUCH higher than what it is put at.

Bug is arguably the best attacking type in gen 1. Poison types are abundant throughout the game. Beedrills attack and speed are at a place where even though they aren't crazy good they are good enough to be usable. Although he isn't the best in the elite four he isn't that bad for agatha. Also he is caught and evolved early and is powerful against Misty if you lack rattata. If you train your pokemon well enough he will solo sabrina erika and koga

TL:DR Beedrill isn't the best thing ever but it's definitely not the worst. Twineedle is the best move in gen 1 and he has a monopoly over it.
While I do think the current Weedle submission could be done again due to lack of detail in certain areas (no additional comments, stats having only one word describing them, etc.), your reasoning is obviously flawed. You say Bug is the best attacking type in RBY, even though the only damaging Bug-type moves are the weak Leech Life, Twineedle, and Pin Missile. While Poison-types are very common in-game, don't forget that the majority of them have either high Defense (Koffing), above average HP (Grimer), or Wrap (Ekans). Why use a Pokemon whose attacking stats are "good enough" when you could go for one with above average attacking stats? (Nidoran says hi.) You also state that it does acceptably against Agatha, who has 4 Pokemon that are neutral to Bug and even know Super-effective attacks against it. Not to mention, her Ghosts are all faster and can put you to sleep before you can say "Twineedle". Another thing is you say it's useful against Misty if you lack Rattata, which is wrong in two points: about Beedrill being good against Misty, and also about Rattata somehow being useful against her. Finally, how are you expecting a Bug/POISON to do well against SABRINA of all people?

EDIT: ninja'd
 

Chou Toshio

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Sorry Itchni, but yeah... basically everything you said is wrong... Beedril sucks, Gyarados is awesome (coming early with fantastic stats and Water/Ice/Electric coverage is well worth the investment and high tier placement).
 

breh

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It could probably get out of bottom; for the reasons itchni mentioned, it's probably low at worst.

It has 80 base attack. When I played with Wigglytuff, that (70 base, but, admittedly, STAB on Body Slam) to get it through the game. Bug is not the best type in the game (that honor is reserved for Psychic or maybe Normal), but it seems ok on Beedrill, especially considering, as Itchni said, that it hits Rocket Grunts' Poison-types and Psychic-types in general for SE; the latter is something that literally no other mon in the game can boast.
 
Yeah, Beedrill is pretty sucky. Poisons are handled by Ground or Psychic, so you don't need the Bug SE on those. Grass is beaten by Fire and Flying, and most have a secondary poison type making them weak to Ground and Psychic too. And while yes, Beedrill does hit Psychics supereffectively, it's base 75 speed makes it only quicker than Hypno, Slowbro and Exeggutor. Of those 3, Slowbro and Hypno have enough bulk to survive anything that Beedrill throws at it. Exeggutor is 4x weak, but he's literally 1 pokemon, and if Beedrill can only beat a single pokemon, it's not great. Likewise, Beedrill doesn't have the bulk to survive anything, let alone a supereffective hit from the best typing in the game. So yes, it gets one of the few moves that can hurt a Psychic-type, but it will have to be way overlevelled for it to be viable under that circumstance.

Likewise, many of the poison types the rockets use are Zubats, who are quicker than Beedrill and can annoy the crap out of with supersonic. Plus, they only take neutral due to the Flying type.

Beedrill's poor attack and speed means that he will often need boosts to work against stronger trainers. Luckily he comes with Agility and can learn Swords Dance and Hyper Beam for coverage. It's a shame that his bulk is so pathetic that it can't take 2 turns to set up, even if it's level is 10 higher that Lance's Dragonite. There is no point in the game where something isn't more useful than it.

So, I think Weedill should stay in the bottom-tier. It's "redeeming" qualities are nothing special, and is a perfect example of the role stats play in RBY, in how it can make or break a pokemon.
 

Nix_Hex

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Furthermore, Charizard's Slash is "super effective" against everything except rocks thanks to crits. You need to take math into consideration. "Super effective" does not mean it's the best move to use in any given situation. All of these Poison-types you are speaking of die to just about any mid-top tier Pokemon without being super effective.
 
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